Jessie, Biggs, and Wedge's Roles in the Remake Thread
- Thread starter The Twilight Mexican
- Start date
There's Jessie drama?
Oh my sweet summer child...
crazyrabbits23
yes.
- AKA
- Alex
Which is irrelevant. The whole point of the OG, at least in the opening, was that Cloud didn't care about anyone or anything until sometime around the second reactor. He's happy to give up one of the few(only) connections he's ever known to bail out... until he realizes the money he would be getting/the job being the same as before, so he stays. As far as I'm aware, he actually has a connection with Marlene in this version because the choice to give her a flower is directly tied to Barret's happiness/the Gold Saucer date, Barret is.... nicer/less authoritative over Marlene in this version, and the plot makes Tifa's role less clear at that point in the game. In the remake, Barret's "happiness"/the garden scene/his role in the ending mission has been changed to a "catch-all" last resort character if you've screwed up happiness enough with both female characters. That in itself is a different discussion, and an element I'm not necessarily happy that they changed, because I find Barret's reflection scene in the garden to be one of the best-voiced cutscenes in the game, one which a sizable majority of players may never see.
Regardless of whether the director had a "bias" or not (and no, I don't believe that), the remake plot is reframed towards plot and progress-based progression with Tifa. The game establishes right from the get-go that Cloud has a long-time connection with this character we haven't seen yet (greater emphasis on their relationship/foreshadowing) and makes it very clear (from what Barret says after they get to the station in Chapter 3) that he knows that Cloud has some type of feelings towards her. You just don't get that with Jessie that early in the game. She spends one chapter being flirty, then goes more towards self-doubt as she wonders aloud about her role in the bombing. If I'm a new player, I won't know this character anymore than anyone else. Giving her a flower takes away from the introduction of two pivotal characters at a critical juncture in the storyline, regardless of whether you think him handing Jessie a flower in a "dismissive" way is warranted or not.
In fact, in the OG, I got more of the sense of Jessie wanting to act as a caretaker for Cloud (the scene on the traincar at the beginning/her role as "Midgar tutorial wireframe lady") instead of a romantic prospect. I'm happy (okay, a bit annoyed) with what they gave for her in the remake, but that's far more than I was expecting, which is to say... not much.
And because I'd like to keep this within the context of the title:
Aerith and Tifa's dresses are directly tied in to plot/achievements progression. They're tiered by sidequest progression, and based on..................... research, some of them even seem to have different.... physics. That they went out of their way to do this at all is certainly something I didn't expect, but it's symptomatic of the way development appears to have been structured, focusing on "biggest bang for the development buck".
This isn't the same as the OG, where you can just throw in new events and outfits because of 20+ years of fan research and modding. Asking for a side character to have a dress makes no sense in the new version. Jessie's a soldier, not going undercover. Why does she need a dress? And if she does, why should a department go out of their way to design an outfit that's presumably only going to be used for one character and one scene? This goes back to the discussion we had earlier in this thread regarding development priorities and the shift away from the "everything but the kitchen sink" mentality of the 90s.
She never has an opportunity in either the OG or remake to go outside her designated role as the bombmaker, and the plot never gives a reason for why she would want to do this - it's made explicitly clear that she gave up her shot at stardom/success/glamour to fight alongside Avalanche to avenge her father. She has no reason to wear a dress in the slums, Barret never puts her in charge of the infiltration mission at Corneo's, and she's off-screen for long periods of time once it gets past the upper plate area.
Let's say that you get your wish - that she gets a flashback/dress modeled on the Gold Saucer. That means pre-emptively designing a gameplay area/elements that won't be critical for another game... which means possibly designing an area that could be radically changed, and may not have gameplay elements/assets that can be reused down the line. That means designing content over and above the litany of additional material that was given to her in the finished product. That means giving her something that has no relevance to her current role in the game and is never remotely requested by her.
If you want to talk more, maybe we should take it over to the remake frustration thread.
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Jairus
Author of FFVII: Lifestream & FFVII: Reflections
I know, but it's still not the same as actually seeing her on stage. And unlike Wedge, she wasn't given a chance to grow. She's basically the same in the pillar as she was at the start of the game. Same for Biggs.
Why do you assume stuff has to be removed to add more content for her? It's not a zero sum game. One can do both. And just because she's not "main" or "party member" means she can be diminished? I guess you've never heard of Allen from Xenosaga, then. He was an NPC, for the most part unplayable, but still an important part of the cast and story for the entire trilogy. I know it's not quite the same here, but the point is that an NPC can still be given prominence and importance despite not being "main" or "playable".
One flashback scene as part of her already existing backstory wouldn't hurt anything or take away from other parts of the game. And considering that having just one such scene of her on stage would've only required developing only a single part of the Gold Saucer (the part where the play is) and not the whole thing, it could've been done.
I'm just responding to what he's saying. I haven't put anyone down. Only approved opinions are allowed to be discussed here?
Jairus
Author of FFVII: Lifestream & FFVII: Reflections
It's not irrelevant, and the remake isn't the OG. According to Nojima, Cloud's only pretending to not care because he wants to look cool and get attention. All of his harsh talk is nothing but a facade, and thus he doesn't really mean any of the harsh things he says. It's just his cover, his shell. And grudging, whatever-style giving of the flower to Jessie (if the player chose to) would not have been out of place, especially if it's portrayed as something like he does it to get it off him because he's not comfortable with it or something or to quell her flirting (for the moment, anyway).
No it doesn't. And the story didn't have to be written to be so heavy-handed Cloti. I know you worship her, but you're overemphasizing the importance of early introductions. Aerith couldn't have her flower-selling moment to herself because Tifa had to butt in with her Cloti-specific flower meaning. There should've been no initial bias toward any of the three girls. And it is possible that Cloud could've had at least a little attraction for Jessie - watch his eye contact with her for one. He's actually comfortable enough with her to initiate it in the elevator and hold it until she's the one who looks away. And when she gives him the materia, she has to move it for him to see it because his gaze is so fixed on her. And in Reactor 1, she's the one who gets the most emotion out of him. She's also the first one to get him to smile. There's a lot more, but because it's not hammer-over-your-head obvious, it can be easy to miss. The very fact that he could've been willing to consider accepting her date invitation shows he could have at least a little interest in her. If he didn't, the no promises response wouldn't ever have been an option. So give us the chance to give her the flower if we wanted to wouldn't have hurt anything. I know you want Tifa to have everything, but she's not the only girl in this game.
No, she was helping him, but she was definitely flirting and interested. Or did you miss "There's such a thing as playing too hard to get." and her putting her finger on his mouth?
I meant a dress as in seeing her in a flashback to her time on stage, where it would make sense. Not in the current time. You misunderstood me.
No, the Gold Saucer flashback is meant to show her history, not simply tell it. "Show, don't tell," is a basic storytelling rule. Seeing her acting on stage in a dress in a flashback is much different and far more impactful than simply having Biggs talk about it. And the only area that would be required to be designed would be the stage itself, possibly the first few rows of the audience, and maybe a backstage area for if it went as far as showing her hearing about her dad's accident. That's hardly the entire Gold Saucer and wouldn't require much to update for future games in the series. Don't be afraid to let someone other than Tifa get some spotlight, okay?
Because it does and because it is. If you are making one thing, then you are not making something else. You can't just "decide" to have things. Man hours would have to be spent making it a reality, we have a limited amount of those, which is why the game was delayed in the first place.
So if you want extra content that requires extra work, then that requires extra time, which means that either the game would have had to have been delayed further. Or you would have to have freed up man hours by removing something else. And if I were to somehow be able to save time and money by removing something unnecessary from the game, then giving Jessie a dress would not be in my top 100 most important things to spend more time on.
I thought Jessie already received an amazing amount of extra attention, if anything, I'd have spent more time on Wedge and especially Biggs.
Can I ask though, why are you so insistent on this? Why is it specifically Jesse that you think deserves more attention, and should get dressed, and be a real love rival, etc? Why not Scarlet? Why not advocate for a tux for Barret? I would understand this if Jessie had a dress in the original, and it was removed. But you seem to have arbitrarily decided that Jessie should have had more focus, and specifically a certain kind of focus, not because of any objective reason but because YOU would have liked it and you don't understand why they didn't do specifically what YOU wanted them to do?
Just this entire strange "Nojima has a bias" argument is weird to me. I mean, what does that mean? He's the writer, it's not a bias, whatever his opinion is IS the unbiased opinion in a way isn't it? Like, was Sauron evil because Tolkien had a bias against Sauron? Or is Sauron objectively as evil as Tolkien wrote him?
If Nojima didn't present Jessie as an important love interest even though he could have, that doesn't mean he's "biased against Jessie", it means Jessie just wasn't that important as a love interest....That happens.
This is why I love that entire sequence, it suddenly and completely tonally shifts the game, everything is turned upside down. It's a huge "oh shit" moment, and I LOVE it.
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Stiggie, what Jairus hoped for was a heavily re-written game in which Jessie permanently joined the party as a main character and third romance option, where she was not killed at the pillar, and where it was possible to end the entire game (i.e., remake series) with Jessie and Cloud as a couple. Had he been the developer, that's the direction he would have gone in.
I can understand why someone would WANT that (I guess), but I find it really strange to be offended that they didn't. It seems so obvious that that is a personal wish and not something that is wrong from a design point of view.
"I wish the game had had Jessie as a love interest" I get.
"How could the developers have messed this up, they clearly could have made Jessie a love interest and yet they insulted her by not making her a love interest, even though that would have been the 'correct' way to handle her character" is just something I never expected someone to say.
It caught me a bit off-guard I must say.
Erotic Materia
[CONFUSED SCREAMING]
Don't fall into the trap of thinking you can convince a certain Jessie zealot to see reason. It is an exercise in futility that many, many others before you have attempted and ultimately failed.
Oh my god. I want both of these things. But mostly Barret in a tux. I mean, Scarlet is already killing it.
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Don't fall into the trap of thinking you can convince a certain Jessie zealot to see reason. It is an exercise in futility that many, many others before you have attempted and ultimately failed.
Oh my god. I want both of these things. But mostly Barret in a tux. I mean, Scarlet is already killing it.
You know what, I will throw a bone here to something that has slightly bothered me in the past.
I don't see how you can get from Cloud COULD show reciprocal feelings towards Jessie and all that stuff to he SHOULD do so. I don't see what it adds to her character to make her a discount Aerith, and I don't see what it adds to FFVII or storytelling general to make it so that every single woman near Cloud loves him and he loves them all back. This is not a Harem anime.
However.
It bothered me a bit in Advent children everyone is wearing a pink ribbon in memory of Aerith.
I get that for Cloud, and to a lesser extent for Cait, Vincent, Cid, and Yuffie, though some of them barely knew her.
But why do Barret and Tifa have one? Sure, they knew her quite well....But not as well as Biggs, Wedge, and Jessie.
I get why Barret and Tifa would mourn for Aerith, but I really don't get why they singled her out for mourning over their longtime comrades and friends. That is something where I sort of feel like the fact that they're not main characters is an excuse not to give them the respect they logically deserve. It's weird, it feels like it's done because WE the players love Aerith, not because it makes sense for the characters in character.
I kind of assumed they were wearing the pink ribbon in memory of everyone they'd lost in the struggle, and settled on pink as opposed to some other colour since it represents Aerith. I'm sure that when they take that ribbon on or off, or look at it, Aerith isn't the only person they remember.
I'll be honest, I've never understood how people can say the characters are interchangeable, but that's because they are first and foremost to me characters in a story rather than pieces of equipment in a game.
I'll be honest, I've never understood how people can say the characters are interchangeable, but that's because they are first and foremost to me characters in a story rather than pieces of equipment in a game.
Jairus
Author of FFVII: Lifestream & FFVII: Reflections
One scene. To give her equal treatment in this regard to the other two girls. Like I said, it's not a zero sum game.
Then explain her unceremonious ejection from the story along with the trio after Chapter 4 right when we were left wanting more of them. Story seeds were planted in her chapter but were never resolved. And her progression with Cloud (along with her possible date) was discarded as though it didn't even matter. It's like the devs went "Wait, Cloud's being nice to her? Quick! Kick her outta the story! Can't let people think there could be something that could happen between them!"
If you're already providing a reason you think I'm doing it, you're putting words in my mouth. Please don't do that. For the dress, I just wanted her to have been given the same treatment as the other two girls and not be forgotten in that regard. And she does have genuine interest in Cloud and thanks to the remake and her portrayal, a lot of folks want the chance to be able to choose her over Aerith and Tifa and not be shoehorned into the traditional options. In just one night, Jessie was able to crack Cloud's shell. And if she was able to do that so quickly, imagine how much more she could've done if they'd had more time together (and still might if she survived). Think Squall and Rinoa, it's similar to that dynamic - bubbly, cheerful girl gets distant, stoic guy to open up, who eventually falls for her. There are many people now who'd like to see that progression allowed to run its full course for Cloud and Jessie if we so choose.
It's been noted here on TLS that he has that bias. And what it means is that Clerith and Clessie seemingly aren't given equal weight and viability because of it. Tifa butts into moments each of them have with Cloud.
That's not what happened, though. There's a clear progression and possibility that's left open over the course of the first quarter of the game but which is arbitrarily thrown aside and left hanging to cater to A & T. The very fact that we had the option to have Cloud choose to accept Jessie's date invite means that, under "no promises," it's possible he had some interest in her. Otherwise he would've never considered having that date with her. And the next day, if you've chosen that option, you get confirmation that her interest was genuine if you talk to her twice before leaving - she tells Cloud to hurry back so the pizza doesn't get cold, reminding him of their dinner date. And the fact that he doesn't argue about it or say he hasn't decided yet shows he's decided to accept her invitation and thus, has a little interest in her.
So tell me, how would allowing her to have a role in the story beyond Midgar destroy the series? And SE has given previously unplayable characters playability before - Zack (who was in the OG far less than Jessie, though still an important role). She, unlike the rest of the trio, has the reasons and connections to make a journey outside Midgar, something people here refuse to see. It wouldn't hurt for SE to use that as a springboard to develop her further, though. And I would not force the outcome if I were the developer. The choice would be the player's, just as it should be in the remake.
I never said that, and I never said it was the only way. But by virtue of her being interested in Cloud, she is a love interest. By definition.
Oh, so your opinion is what defines reason in the universe?
You're misunderstanding me. I just want it acknowledged here that he could have had some interest in her. He did possibly accept a dinner date invitation from her, after all. And three possible love interests has been done before, and by SE - Dragon Quest V. So it's clearly possible and doable. But because it's different from the OG, folks here largely don't want it. But fortunately, they're not the entirety of the FFVII fandom. Possibility and choosability are not the same as certainty, either. Who he favors should be completely up to us and not forced on us. It wasn't forced in the OG - the Highwind scene could've been the friendship version, and Cloud could've gone on a Gold Saucer date with one of four options. The game made none of those scenes the canon outcome. I'm just saying the remake should follow that path and that it couldn't hurt to let Jessie be a part of that (assuming she survived, which is still possible). And she's not a discount Aerith, she's her own character - don't demean her by saying things like that. And just because you don't see what it could add to the story doesn't mean it can't.. That's your opinion, not a fact.
People here seem to want to keep her limited and stuck in a box, never having more than what she was given and never allowing the story arcs begun around her to be finished. Her family situation, for one - there were plateside survivors, so it's not for certain that they died. It's possible, but not for sure. Either way, it would serve as a motivation for her to make a possible journey outside Midgar (to either avenge them or find a way to save her dad, which Cloud's recovery from his own mako poisoning could play right into by giving her the information and means that she needs to do that - seeing Cloud recover and hearing how it was done would give her hope for the same for her dad, and seeing that happen would be a good moment for her). Another would be to atone for what she feels she did with her bombs, and helping Cloud and the others in their quest (indirectly through something like making weapons and armor for them that you can't get anywhere else or through the long shot of being a new playable member) would be a way to do that. And letting her have a Gold Saucer date of her own would be good because of her history with the place and the play that's a part of that event, and experiencing it with her (with her past there) would set it apart and make it a unique experience different from the others and possibly give them a chance to have that pizza dinner they were never able to have in Part 1.
I've noticed on TLS there's a disparity as to which characters and sets of characters get attention and which don't. The Turks have a special thread in the spoiler forum, but the trio doesn't. Aerith has a thread in there about her possible survival, but there isn't one for Jessie and Wedge, who could also be alive. I could make them myself, of course, but that defeats the purpose. I'm also just about the only one who shares art specifically of Jessie in the fanart thread, as another example. And heaven forbid the Cloti club ever go a single day without someone posting in it. The point is that I shouldn't have to be the only one bringing them up like that. But TLS seems to have its biases. Feel free to show me otherwise by starting those threads and addressing those things, though.
DLPB told me people here were clique-ish. Maybe he was right.
But anyway, please don't say anything else on the topic. The thread's already been derailed enough.
No small part of that is your fault. You made everyone sick to death of Jessie discussions so why would anyone start one?
lol. The only cliques on TLS regarding DLPB were 1) DLPB and 2) Everyone else.
Jairus
Author of FFVII: Lifestream & FFVII: Reflections
Because I'd been gone, and she shouldn't be dissed because people wouldn't be open to what I was saying. And because it couldn't hurt to at least try and turn things around here for her and get positive discussion going about her again so people won't be sick of her anymore. That's why I sent Lex the message I did. Haven't heard back yet, but I know he's probably busy so I understand that.
And why do you say what you do about DLBP? I don't know the history much, so I was just wondering.
Sorry, Cat, didn't mean to forget. I only brought up the girls' dresses and not Cloud's because what I was saying was that it would've been nice if Jessie had not been forgotten in that regard, is all.
It's called being a popular character.
Jairus, threads don't magically make themselves. I made the Turks and Rufus thread. If you want Jessie, Biggs and Wedge to have a thread, make one. The people who want to post there will do so. It's not as if the entire membership of TLS is posting in the Turks thread; I think there's maybe 5 or 6 people who post there on a regular basis. And I'll say this: fond as I am of the Turks, I didn't seriously expect the entire Remake to be about them, nor did I expect to see Aerith running off into the sunset with Tseng or Tifa hooking up Rude. That kind of wish fulfilment has to stay in fanfic, where it belongs.
Also, you need to understand that being open to what someone is saying isn't the same thing as agreeing with what they're saying. I have no doubt that for you the Remake would have been a better game if it had contained all the things you wished for. But it wouldn't have been a better game for me.
- AKA
- Ody
Look, Jairus, you dug this hole for yourself. If you'd played nice and kept your Jessie fixation in check we could have had a nice little clique here like the Turks have, but that's not what you did. You argued with everyone at every turn, derailing every goddamn thread you became a part of (see this very thread) and told people how they should feel, how the game should be, and that they're the ones being unreasonable. Now Jessie is a tainted subject here, nobody wants to deal with the baggage she has now. I like her, I wanted to talk about her, but I can't do that here anymore because of you. I had to hang up the coat and let it go. I'm the goddamn potato man now (no I'm still not explaining what that means.) I was trying to be nice, I really was, but I can't deal with this anymore. You didn't learn a thing from that 6 week ban, and at the rate you're going it's just gonna happen again.
Also, I'm tired of being the only person who know why you act like this to begin with. I think you'd do well to explain to everyone else. People here are nice mostly, they'll listen.
Also, I'm tired of being the only person who know why you act like this to begin with. I think you'd do well to explain to everyone else. People here are nice mostly, they'll listen.
Prism
Pro Adventurer
- AKA
- pikpixelart
And I think there is a place for a Jessie / AVALANCHE group here - a passionate one at that. But you gotta learn from the mistakes of the past.
If you express your love of Jessie in a healthy way, I’m sure plenty of people would be content with it. Doing it in a destructive, compulsive manner doesn’t help them, nor does it help you, ultimately. I can’t imagine it feels good to lash out like this.
I don’t want to see you get banned again. Please learn from the past and express your love for Jessie in a more healthy manner.
If you express your love of Jessie in a healthy way, I’m sure plenty of people would be content with it. Doing it in a destructive, compulsive manner doesn’t help them, nor does it help you, ultimately. I can’t imagine it feels good to lash out like this.
I don’t want to see you get banned again. Please learn from the past and express your love for Jessie in a more healthy manner.
Erotic Materia
[CONFUSED SCREAMING]
Ody, I like you. If anyone is deserving of a hug throughout all this, it's you. I didn't have to give up talking about the best girl Tifa, so I can imagine how much this all sucks.
- AKA
- Rishi
All jokes aside Jairus, are you able to step back a little and look at how much energy you put into this topic? I'm not trying to police your interests or anything. I've never really engaged with you. However, looking at your posts over the course of several months, it does come across as a little strange, maybe even a little concerning 
Like, I get it. Many of us are bored as shit, not being able to leave the house normally. Still, the thought of someone being this hyper-focused on a minor character who.... at the end of the day, isn't all that important. It's kinda weird. I'm not trying to be rude, as it seems there might be something more going on than meets the eye. That being said, the amount of vindication you have for this particular subject - surely you can see how this can make people feel exhausted at the very least, or uncomfortable at the very worst?
I mean Jessie is cool and all. I like Jessie. She's hot. I'm all about that waifu-love. But you know, sometimes waifu-lovin' runs into this not-so-chill realm. When that happens, things tend to stop smelling so good
Like, I get it. Many of us are bored as shit, not being able to leave the house normally. Still, the thought of someone being this hyper-focused on a minor character who.... at the end of the day, isn't all that important. It's kinda weird. I'm not trying to be rude, as it seems there might be something more going on than meets the eye. That being said, the amount of vindication you have for this particular subject - surely you can see how this can make people feel exhausted at the very least, or uncomfortable at the very worst?
I mean Jessie is cool and all. I like Jessie. She's hot. I'm all about that waifu-love. But you know, sometimes waifu-lovin' runs into this not-so-chill realm. When that happens, things tend to stop smelling so good