Lightning Returns: Final Fantasy XIII

[Kuja9001]

The composer was brought to tears while making the ending theme.

 

[Arianna]

Well, Grey DeLisle-Griffin has tweeted that she is doing some voice work for Final Fantasy; and, I had a tweet (to her, mentioning the game) favorited by her. That's proof of absolutely nothing, but, still interesting!

 

[Mwynn]

Hm, it's kinda hard to guess which one she's working on because SE plans to showcase more than one FF title at E3... hm

 

[Fangu]

Hm, it's kinda hard to guess which one she's working on because SE plans to showcase more than one FF title at E3... hm

Yeah but that other game can't be so far in the process they've started hiring local cast yet?

I think she's Lumina, woot (haven't heard her voice yet, though)

Edit: Here she is

Seems to me she does do a lot of "girly girl" voices - she's very good too!

 

[Mwynn]

Ugh one more month of waiting...

Well putting that aside, I just want to ask something to jog my memory: What do we exactly know on the nature of the l'Cie mark? Is it basically just a mark externally applied to a human by a fal'Cie God.. or?

Because I was thinking what if the mark represents full human potential? And that the only thing the fal'Cie gods do is bring out that mark and break the barrier that prevents people from using their full potential... or power or whatever that can harm and overtake their bodies resulting to them turning to Cieth? I feel like I've asked this question before somewhere and has been proven wrong but I've forgotten stuff.

 

[Splintered]

I never really put a good amount of thought on the l'cie mark beyond, maybe easier merchandising or something. I wonder if the limitations on humans were deliberate by fal'cie or it just turned out that way. I'm not sure if I really buy the whole "they are on pulse and that's why they can now do magic" because they had entire civilizations on Pulse that couldn't do magic before.

 

[Mwynn]

Let me search for that datalog entry...

Here it is:

'Magic' is the ability to draw on the crystal power residing within oneself and make possible all manner of incredible feats. This power was once only the province of l'Cie, but since the catastrophe and the migration to Pulse, some former citizens of Cocoon have suddenly developed the ability to wield magic. Serah is one of those people.
Many of those who now command magical energies are simple civilians, and have never had Serah's experience of once being a l'Cie. It is theorized that the move to Gran Pulse has awoken these abilities, and people are beginning to see magic as just another tool in their everyday lives. Noel is also capable of casting spells, but doesn't seem to think of himself as anything special.

Maybe it's the same phenomenon that cut down the number of hours in a day in their universe from 13 to 12.

 

[Splintered]

Maybe it's the same phenomenon that cut down the number of hours in a day in their universe from 13 to 12.

That's probably just pure laziness and simplicity, it's just easier to design a time game with time you understand.

 

[Arianna]

Let me search for that datalog entry...

Here it is:

'Magic' is the ability to draw on the crystal power residing within oneself and make possible all manner of incredible feats. This power was once only the province of l'Cie, but since the catastrophe and the migration to Pulse, some former citizens of Cocoon have suddenly developed the ability to wield magic. Serah is one of those people. Many of those who now command magical energies are simple civilians, and have never had Serah's experience of once being a l'Cie. It is theorized that the move to Gran Pulse has awoken these abilities, and people are beginning to see magic as just another tool in their everyday lives. Noel is also capable of casting spells, but doesn't seem to think of himself as anything special.

Maybe it's the same phenomenon that cut down the number of hours in a day in their universe from 13 to 12.

That's probably just pure laziness and simplicity, it's just easier to design a time game with time you understand.

Honestly, I find the whole issue disgusting. It is one of the things about XIII-2 that makes the entire thing just plainly bleh. There's nothing wrong with humans NOT being able to use magic. I feel it's cliche that they all-of-a-sudden can; and blaming the fal'Cie is lame.

Also, if magic is from chaos, that only proves that fal'Cie and other living creatures are holders of chaos themselves; and truthfully, Etro's intervention doesn't cut it because everything returns to chaos once dead (hence explained by Mwynn in the FNC story). That was not a distinction solely given to humanity; though, Etro is the one who gave humanity their share of chaos. Which is actually interesting, seeing that humanity were not created by that which created all other life...

Also that Serah is all of a sudden some golden child is just ... bleh. No. I don't hate Serah, I just don't agree with the path taken on the whole subject of XIII-2.

Eh - the whole story and sub-stories just don't make sense, and needed to be fleshed out even more so than XIII! I just did not like XIII-2.

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

Can't thank your post enough, Ari.

 

[ForceStealer]

But it was much more fun to play

 

[Joe]

FFXIII delivered a half-decent story with the most terrible of gameplay. FFXIII-2 delivered a wacky and unstructured story with a lot of fantastic gameplay. I will pick FFXIII-2 any day of the week.

 

[Splintered]

In a totally unrelated note

 

[Mwynn]

Ah, the entirety of XIII-2 really basically screams "laziness". They never even properly thought things out. Not only story-wise, but also gameplay-wise.

Oh and about that, Toriyama actually said himself that XIII-2's ending was inspired by the earthquake. The Chaos seeping in and Serah's death symbolizes the catastrophe and Lightning's crystallization symbolizes undying hope.

 

[Splintered]

I think a lot of the laziness could have been rectified if they just were given more time, they could have added levels, player tested the difficulty better, made choices in dialogue options matter more. XIII-2 had too many half hazard things thrown in. XIII was extremely well thought out, imo, but that was the problem, it knew exactly what it wanted the player to do and gave no customization and little player input. XIII-2 allowed the players to do what they want, but it ended up with an easily broken game that needed dlc to add post game difficulty.

The plot I don't think is salvageable, but the plot was mostly decoration for the time traveling mechanic which was tons of fun. Toriyama is just not good at streamlining story, he needs to invest in a good writer that knows either fantasy or scifi. In the end though, what keeps the story from being unbearable is the emotional core of the characters, and imo that was fine. The dynamic between Yuel, Noel, and Caius was my favorite part of the story. Serah-Lightning didn't have much until the dlc but it already built the backbone in the first game.

Oh and about that, Toriyama actually said himself that XIII-2's ending was inspired by the earthquake. The Chaos seeping in and Serah's death symbolizes the catastrophe and Lightning's crystallization symbolizes undying hope.

Yeah, it's much easier to see the influences in the dlc, because before that it seemed just one hilariously tragic event after the other.

I mean, an almost utopia built on only human innovation and hardwork, only to be destroyed by what an unstoppable act of nature (yeah Caius did do the dirty work but in the end it still just a wordly mechanic)? Probably one of the most compelling arguments I read about why XIII-2 was not getting a sequel (lol when people still doubted its existence) because it was a complete story based it off the earthquake/tsunami. Serah and Noel fight against the inevitable, even if it was a longshot, did their best, gave the almost perfect world the best chance, and tragedy still struck. The dlc was suppose to represent, like Mwynn said, undying hope, grief, acceptance, and at the same time the promise that maybe some day past all the tragedy you would meet your loved ones again as long as you remembered them.

Of course, a sequel is coming and the theory relies almost entirely on the dlc, but the argument isn't moot. That's probably was intended, especially since it's at least partially confirmed. It's just not the end of the story.

 

[Groodon]

I'm pretty optimistic for this game though!

 

[Arianna]

But it was much more fun to play

FFXIII delivered a half-decent story with the most terrible of gameplay. FFXIII-2 delivered a wacky and unstructured story with a lot of fantastic gameplay. I will pick FFXIII-2 any day of the week.

I'll give you that, and I accept that people prefer the game play in XIII-2 over XIII. For me, I'd take XIII over XIII-2 any day of the week. ( Still, I'll be going back to XIII-2 to platinum it once I get the gumption to do so. )

 

[Roger]

FFXIII delivered a half-decent story with the most terrible of gameplay. FFXIII-2 delivered a wacky and unstructured story with a lot of fantastic gameplay. I will pick FFXIII-2 any day of the week.

There's hardly that fundamental a difference in gameplay between the two. The battlesystem is mostly the same and changes are if you are even considering buying FFXIII-2, you already have FFXIII and played that a great deal already.

 

[Groodon]

I hope to see this in the last game
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I8JJIV9f7A8#t=13m53s
They seem to be in a time/timeline where there is grass and nature. Might be after Lightning saved the world, and fix the timeline(?). And Lightning and her friends go back to their time, and Noel and Yeul go back to 700af. Just a theory though.

 

[Ffxiii1ll]

FFXIII delivered a half-decent story.

Am I the only to think the FF13's story was amazing ^^' ?

 

[Fangu]

I think XIII's story was really good, it's just way too complex to take in on one playthrough. I remember reading that instead of NPC's giving you the background story, they introduced the Datalog instead. I wanted to read the Datalog, but my boyfriend kept saying "those things are just for the extra curious people, you shouldn't have to read that to know what's going on". In a way, he was wrong. I kept having "wait, what" moments through the game, and I felt certain points that needed emphasizing was barely mentioned, while others was repeated to boredom (okay Fal'Cie makes l'Cie, I've got that part now.)

But in a way, I found that rather refreshing - the complexity of it, I mean. Nowadays I find stories in movies and tv shows a little "undercomplexed". I loved the feeling of "wow I have to pay attention if I'm gonna follow".

However how much the story confused me (because it did, I had no idea why I was actually going in to kill Orphan) it was the characters that was the most interesting aspect of the story for me. Plot development is also part of the story, and I think they did this part really well. I absolutely fell in love with Lightning. My love for her even today is on the height of very few other things that I feel personally attached to.

I'm also in deep respect of the Fang character, because she's an extremely refreshing addition to characters in entertainment. I am in awe of how they wrote that character as a man, love story and all, and when they went a complete 180 and changed the character to female to create more dynamics in the battle party, they barely changed anything in her storyline. (Did they even?) It was liberating because a lot of females, like myself, don't necessarily recognize ourselves in the "feminine values" often given to female characters. Since I was a kid I've felt misplaced regarding my sex because of certain things, so it's always awesome to see characters that aren't given qualities such as social skills, a caring nature, preference to pretty things over practical things, a light sense of humour (which always brightens everyones day), amongst others. Fang doesn't talk about and have feelings about stuff, she ponders about stuff, and she does them. She shows her attachment to other people through action and taking responsibility, not through telling or showing them. Which I guess is often seen as a very male-like quality. Anyway I could rant about Fang forever, it isn't a coincidence I took her nick.

But yes, *ahem* characters. XIII-2 couldn't take the luxury of allowing you to dislike one or two of them (how much hate hasn't Snow, Hope and Lightning taken?) because there's only two protagonists in the game so you have to be careful alienating your audience. (I don't remember who brought up this point first, I think it was Splintered in the XIII-2 thread? Excellent observation btw.) They had to streamline Serah in a way I disapprove of - she's much more interesting when she gets angry. Serah to me is kinda like Aerith. I believe she's into filthy talk *ahem again* Anyway, I do adore Noel though, even though he was in serious risk of becoming "I'm tormented baww but I still do everything the appropriate way" but they steered clear of that somehow. People in #tls (the chat) knows how much I love Noel And I am OVER THE MOON they are giving him a slight antagonist role in this game. It feels right for him believing so much in what he does it would lead to a conflict with our heroine.

The rest of XIII-2's story was fine, I guess. Easy to follow, well written for that type of game play (time traveling). As Splinty said, the key to the story anyway was always Noel - Caius - Yuel, a trio story I really like. Hopefully we'll get some conclusions to that stuff as well. (I still believe Caius was once a decent guy, he was corrupted by seeing someone he cared for dying over and over. (Also it would be neat if Noel's antagonist role is based on some of Caius' story, maybe not as a protector of Yuel but as a protector of Serah.) I can picture him finally getting his rest, or something.)

/rant

 

[Drax]

I think FFXIII-2 was trying to use the time travel as world building, but it was too much at once with no way to really connect to it. There were at least 4 different scenarios that felt like independent game plots that really didn't have anything to do with the other, and the player had no reason to get attached

Spoiler

and ultimately, none of it mattered in the end

. Sera and Noel also did not have enough time to 'show' their motivations, and had to 'tell' everything for most of the game, instead of letting the player get invested.

As for the text in XIII, I agree, that was XII-level writing. A lot of big production games did that, which is dumb because half the story is missing from the game. They did the same thing in Resident Evil 5, which would have been a lot better because more things would have been explained, extra levels, and more ties to older games like RE3.

 

[Mwynn]

I think another issue with XIII-2 as well is that they wrote its story with story DLCs in mind during development. I remember Toriyama saying at the very first interviews for XIII-2 that the story will continue outside the full game (I had a hunch back then that they wanted to conclude the story that way as well; also remember those scrapped DLC ideas?)... and when they've realized that a majority of the fans didn't like that, it resulted to them making a full game in the end, Lightning Returns.

 

[Groodon]

Am I the only to think the FF13's story was amazing ^^' ?

I really loved the story. It was the story and music which got me through the somewhat dull gameplay. The most people which I have talked to that didn't like XIII haven't played more than half of the game. One friend of mine said that the characters are depressing and he didn't want to play because of that. The thing is that the characters got flaws at the start of the game, which they point out to eachother/fix by themselves. One of the things I relaly liked about the game, how the characters really evolved throughout the story.

 

[ForceStealer]

There's hardly that fundamental a difference in gameplay between the two. The battlesystem is mostly the same and changes are if you are even considering buying FFXIII-2, you already have FFXIII and played that a great deal already.

I wasn't referring to the battle system though. It's everything else about the gameplay that makes 13-2 a better game.
And you know I do like 13.