Lightning Returns: Final Fantasy XIII

[Lex]

Why doesn't he get his ass back here and post them himself, we used to chat on the IRC

 

[Fangu]

^ Is that Leafe? Yeah wtf happened to him

 

[Mwynn]

New insight on the Dead Dunes: http://squareportal.net/2013/05/27/new-lightning-returns-panorama-screenshots-desert-ancient/

 

[Arianna]

I just hate how the fal'Cie have been relegated to unimportant, irrelevant details in a story. And yet, sadly, that's all they were meant to be in the story, and out of the story. Truly, it's sad to me, because in all honesty (and I've said it a million times), I found the fal'Cie more deserving of sympathy than the humans. Whatever my own psychology goes into this opinion, it stands to be my truth. No wonder Orphan/Barthandelus wished to never be fully born/wished to die: he realized this truth. The only hope I have when it comes to the XIII series, is that Lindzei actually and truly cared for his (or her, though I still say (and hope) Lindzei is male) fal'Cie (same with Pulse).





















... Still, those pictures are awesome!

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

As far as sympathy goes, aren't humans and fal'Cie pretty similar in their orgins when you get down to it? I mean, sure, humans have free will, but they were made by Lindzei -- the same Lindzei who created Cocoon, populated it with humans and manipulated his fal'Cie creations by leaving them behind to search for the door to the Unseen Realm in the hope of finding him. He likely intended that the fal'Cie would use humans as sacrifical tools to open that door all along.

Really, they were both abandoned, both manipulated and both dealt a pretty shit hand.

 

[Lex]

I operated under the assumption that beings given a purpose (which each fal'cie was) were better off than humans. There's a literal meaning to their existence, which is something humans never really got.

Mind you, I'm not sure if it's better to know what you were made for. Maybe if you're not really that self aware, like that tunnelling fal-cie (atomos?) that just endlessly tunnels. Man how boring must that be.

 

[Fangu]

Yeah I think the whole point is those everlasting storytelling subjects of because you are mortal/ because you have pain/ because you are given a choice as a human, you are better off, because of reasons. (Mortality != immortality, which often means stagnation, boredom and infertility, pain = keeps you sharp, choice = freedom, etc.)

 

[Mwynn]

Speaking of, I hope Lindzei shows up and play a big role in this game. I think his/her importance in the story shouldn't be neglected here. Sure, they said that XIII focused on him/her and on Pulse, but it was more on their fal'Cie. Pulse isn't equally as important since he was in charge in crafting the world but Lindzei crafted the first humans from Etro's flesh and blood, created Cocoon for them, and sustained them by creating fal'Cie. And well, we know that more so than fal'Cie, the fal'Cie Gods do have emotions but they can't understand them. What I'm saying is it would be interesting to explore Lindzei's character more with her/him having a rich premise and learn more how he/she saw things outside the human perspective-- and also how she/he felt about, well, everything that has happened. The game can then be able to scrutinize the saga's themes such as what it means to exist, humanism, etc.

I think Lightning meeting Lindzei would be a really interesting confrontation (considering here that Lindzei would be an antagonist). Lightning would meet the god that created her home, provided her even more than her basic needs in her early life, and technically is the reason why she exists; Lindzei would see "a product" of his/her creations being entrusted by a big job by his/her father, Bhunivelze.

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

Also of significance: Wasn't Lindzei tasked with protecting Bhunivelze while he slept and awakening him once the door to the Unseen Realm was found? So, either Lindzei has already been active in recent events or was supposed to have been yet failed in his/her duty.

 

[Splintered]

It could be that Bhunivelze just discard fal'cie at this point, they were already being used as tools for maintenance or ways to find Mwynn. If that is accomplished, I could see them being tossed aside.

I don't see fal'cie have a big role this game just because it doesn't fit in the theme, but if that did happen I hope it at least gets a mention. They weren't innocent, but it doesn't mean they weren't victims either.

 

[Kuja9001]

Apparently LR is 70% done along with other titles.

https://mobile.twitter.com/aibo_ac7/status/339665517461774336

 

[Arianna]

It could be that Bhunivelze just discard fal'cie at this point, they were already being used as tools for maintenance or ways to find Mwynn. If that is accomplished, I could see them being tossed aside.

I don't see fal'cie have a big role this game just because it doesn't fit in the theme, but if that did happen I hope it at least gets a mention. They weren't innocent, but it doesn't mean they weren't victims either.

I'd like to discard Bhunivelze sometimes...

I just - love the fal'Cie. I think they are the most interesting characters in the whole XIII series!

I find this back and forth about if they have emotions or not total BS, because even if we've not see emotions in any of the others - we have Barthandelus as Galenth Dysley. Do you think those facial expressions were made with no feelings involved? Uh-uh. Nope. He had feelings. Also this continual expression of abandonment, wanting to go home and be with their parent fal'Cie. That doesn't come from any creature without emotions. I still argue that it's not the absence of emotions, it's the understanding of them, it's the control of them that the fal'Cie do not fully have. They are living creatures, but unlike most other creatures, they do not have the guidance of their parent(s), elder(s) or peer(s) - as much as we know. All they have is a mission.

Anyhow, I'm not sure the fal'Cie were just discarded. Unfortunately - probably some did die.

Spoiler

That hand in the desert, for instance, does indeed seem like it could be a fal'Cie; of course, people thought Atlas was a fal'Cie, but he wasn't.

I would hope none died, but... I don't know. I still have hopes that/think that Lumina could prove to be a fal'Cie - and more so, hopefully Lindzei.

Yeah, I know, I'm transfixed.

As for innocence - well, humans aren't either. In fact, they are downright ungrateful, at least the Cocoon stemmed humans are. Everything they consider science was from the fal'Cie. Now, I'm not saying there was no human innovation, but really - it was all from the fal'Cie, or in some way accessible due to the presence and guidance of the fal'Cie. True, I wouldn't want to be used by anyone - fal'Cie, human or other - as some scapegoat or some object to be used. I can see the guilt on the Lindzei fal'Cie for that one (in XIII at least). I love the fal'Cie, but I'm not that crazy. Maybe I am unfairly partial, but I feel that the fal'Cie are less guilty than the humans.

Apparently LR is 70% done along with other titles.

https://mobile.twitter.com/aibo_ac7/status/339665517461774336

My favorite response out of those I read:

 

[Groodon]

Apparently LR is 70% done along with other titles.

https://mobile.twitter.com/aibo_ac7/status/339665517461774336

Only 70%?
On September 4th the game was said to be 30% complete. If we were to presume that they keep their pace, they will be done with the game January sometime. I don't know how game-production works but I hope they will work at a faster pace now

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

Maybe I am unfairly partial, but I feel that the fal'Cie are less guilty than the humans.

Please explain. The humans are mostly guilty of ignorance and laziness at worst -- but the fal'Cie bred them that way purposefully.

That's really the worst that can be said of most of Cocoon's humans. The fal'Cie, on the other hand, knowingly misled humans into the War of Transgression and fueled hundreds of years of xenophobia -- all while intending to burn them alive on a sacrificial altar.

The humans who carried out the Purge, yeah, they suck. The rest, though? What crimes have they really committed that they weren't manipulated into?

Granted, the fal'Cie were manipulated too, probably from the moment Cocoon was constructed and Lindzei invited humans there, but it's not like they don't know what they're doing. They certainly don't express remorse.

One gets the impression they probably could have chosen to seek the door to the Unseen Realm another route had they so chosen. Their programming demanded they seek it, but how they went about it seems less pre-determined. I guess the question is: Did Lindzei program them to sacrifice the humans or did he merely anticipate what they would do?

 

[Splintered]

Please explain. The humans are mostly guilty of ignorance and laziness at worst -- but the fal'Cie bred them that way purposefully.

I agree with Tres. The fal'cie groomed an entire civilization to be technologically and intellectually dependent on the fal'cie. And this wasn't because they were benevolent, this was so they could be easily manipulated.

Yeah they got a nice deal for a couple of hundred of years, they got a utopia and a world willing to do everything except wipe their ass for them. But when the intent was use them to create mass genocide... they no longer deserve their thanks. Granted maybe not all of Cocoon's fal'cie wanted to kill everyone, and Pulse fal'cie are off doing their own thing as well, but none of them particularly care about humans.

If anything we see what happens when humanity isn't tied to fal'cie, and it's pretty awesome. The fal'cie stunted humanity's growth by overindulging them.

FFXIII was partially about the dangers of over reliance of "higher" authorities, either gods or government. They created generations of ignorant people who were willing to turn on each other and the mere mention of Pulse. Then, they overinduldged in escapist activities like the race in Eden. The people of Cocoon were assholes, but not evil, they sincerely thought they were in danger because no one taught them how to question authority. It makes sense when you consider XIII being developed during the height of criticism of the Iraq War.

Granted, the fal'Cie were manipulated too, probably from the moment Cocoon was constructed and Lindzei invited humans there, but it's not like they don't know what they're doing.

I think that's the great irony of the fal'cie, or one of them. They treat humans as tools, and at the same time they are just tools as well.

Considering fal'cie are machines groomed for one purpose, it's probable that they all "died" after the time crash since they weren't needed. How's that for fate, spend hundreds of years manipulated in destroying the world, only have it to destroy you later. That's why I like the idea they are gone, it fully shows hows how unfair the world is.

The fal'cie are tragic, but they aren't sympathetic.

I find this back and forth about if they have emotions or not total BS, because even if we've not see emotions in any of the others - we have Barthandelus as Galenth Dysley. Do you think those facial expressions were made with no feelings involved? Uh-uh. Nope. He had feelings.

My headcanon is simply that they do have emotions, but because what they are they just can't comprehend them. Etros was lonely, but she didn't particularly understand loneliness, she died killing herself and not even understand why she did it. Same thing with the rest of them. Compelled with the feeling of abandonment, but not able to express themselves so they just do the logical things to do, what they were programed for.

 

[Lex]

I agree with the points about the Cocoon fal'cie grooming its population, but what about the Pulse fal'cie? Did they do the same? We know they created L'Cie to destroy Cocoon but it doesn't seem like they had a whole lot in the way of providing for the humans on Pulse.

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

I don't think we know much from their corner for sure, but one wonders if they weren't in on the same plan, what with creating l'Cie to destroy Cocoon. At any rate, they certainly contributed to the xenophobia and near extinction of human life on Pulse.

 

[Lex]

It could be that the Cocoon and Pulse fal'cie were divided as the humans were? Just food for thought, it's not something I've really paid much attention to now that I think about it.

It would make sense that the fal'cie hated each other then taught humans that hatred too.

They're really going to have to bring the fal'cie up at some point in LR. What happened to them when the world got sucked away? I wonder. They might start it off by saying they all died or something.

 

[Splintered]

Pulse fal'cie seem to act more like indiscriminate forces of nature than the Cocoon fal'cie. Besides maybe Anima, they didn't seem to give a shit either way.

But they were pointed as being part of, but not the whole reason, why the population of Pulse was decimated (they had their own issues with war and resources, and Pulse fal'cie wouldn't stop making l'cie even when the number of people couldn't support it).

That said, I read somewhere and I don't know if this is canon or if this is a theory (I thought it was the former but I haven't been able to find it again so I'm probably wrong), that all fal'cie do work towards awakening their god, just in different ways.

Cocoon does it with sacrifice but Pulse does it through branding people and purging Pulse of enemies and monsters. Hence all the cieth stones. It seems that fal'cie probably do have their differing opinions, but they all are trying the same goal just in different ways?

 

[AvecAloes]

That said, I read somewhere and I don't know if this is canon or if this is a theory (I thought it was the former but I haven't been able to find it again so I'm probably wrong), that all fal'cie do work towards awakening their god, just in different ways.

I remember reading this too, but I think I read it here on the forums, so who knows if it was just someone's headcanon or what now.

 

[Kuja9001]

Pulse fal'cie seem to act more like indiscriminate forces of nature than the Cocoon fal'cie. Besides maybe Anima, they didn't seem to give a shit either way.

That said they were pointed as being part of, but not the whole reason, why the population of Pulse was decimated (they had their own issues with war and resources, and Pulse fal'cie wouldn't stop making l'cie even when the number of people couldn't support it).

That said, I read somewhere and I don't know if this is canon or if this is a theory (I thought it was the former but I haven't been able to find it again so I'm probably wrong), that all fal'cie do work towards awakening their god, just in different ways.

Cocoon does it with sacrifice but Pulse does it through branding people and purging Pulse of enemies and monsters. Hence all the cieth stones. It seems that fal'cie probably do have their differing opinions, but they all are trying the same goal just in different ways?

You're correct, the Cocoon Fal'Cie think that Etro's Gate is in the spirit realm so they plan to sacrifice the entire population of Cocoon while the Pulse Fal'Cie think that Etro's Gate is somewhere in the physical realm so they dig and search the skies of Gran Pulse.

 

[Mwynn]

I can't remember where I read it but I remember something about crystal dust disrupting the inner workings of fal'Cie (not the gods) and they just stopped working or something.

 

[Novus]

The Fal'cie remind me of the Angels from Neon Genesis Evangelion in that they all have different purposes, levels of intelligences and all have varying designs.
It's cool they brought Noel back for this game (LR) but I don't think I'm going to get a lot out of it. Anything that occurs now (killing God for instance) feels like an anti-climax.

 

[Arianna]

The fal'Cie did not breed humanity to be anything; it was an easier life on Cocoon, so even the wildlife was more trusting, less fearful of others.

All that was kept from the humans while they lived in Cocoon was the plan for Cocoon's end. This is revealed in one of the questions asked in 4XX Academia, during the Brain Blaster questions. Humans were not guided, except occasionally by Eden in political matters, they were allowed to live as they wished. The fal'Cie gave them almost everything they asked, granted we are not given the full story about how such things as the sciences came about - but I'm sure it was in part human curiosity. Also, if you've read Episode 0, it is stated that even Barthandelus as Galenth Dysley was talked to by Eden, being told that Eden and the other fal'Cie (Kujata, etc.) wanted the people's lives to be peaceful, and go back to how they were before the Euride Plant incident. Granted, Galenth Dysley could have been lying.

I admit, it's not something that I would want to see for myself, being used as a sacrifice, living only to be killed without any say in the matter, without any understanding of the issues that someone else is requiring such a thing of me. I can understand this feeling from anyone in such a situation. This issue does not show the fal'Cie of Cocoon in a good light at all; still, it also meant their own deaths. I don't think that is something they all wanted; in fact, I'd bet on it that they didn't want to die (this was what Barthandelus/Orphan wanted). At the same time, their directives demanded it, and fal'Cie cannot physically go against their orders (without some dire consequences as possibly illustrated in XIII-2 with the present of Gogmagog and his twin.)

Humans do not have this inhibition. Since they do not, they have options open to them where as the fal'Cie do not.

Honestly, it comes down to Barthandelus/Orphan's psychology. My own personal interpretation of him, from what we're shown and what I recall from stuff revealed in the Ultimanias, is that he's extremely powerful, extremely intelligent, and mentally imbalanced. He's a lonely, lost, little boy. He was given a duty, and performed that duty. He became suicidal, and homocidal/"Cie"-icidal(?) sometime, I would strongly guess after Lindzei's departure. I do feel that upon his birth, he gained some knowledge from Lindzei that perhaps Lindzei did not intend for him to receive. I think he had questions and wanted answers - but for a fal'Cie all he could do was his duty, and/or Lindzei had left before he could ask those questions, and/or the answers he received were unconvincing and/or told him nothing.

I wonder if Lindzei knew this of his creation?

All fal'Cie are in the know about "finding the door" - search everywhere for it. Barthandelus somehow (correctly) knew to search the unseen for the unseen, knew that through death Etro's gate (the door) would open. (Valhalla is the Unseen Realm, though... Eh... I don't know if this really works, but oh well.) It seems all fal'Cie are reassured/manipulated that once the door was found, they would be together again with their parent fal'Cie. (It sounds more like it could be both a reassurance as well as a manipulation, something that was true, but also used to entice the fal'Cie on to their goals - which works well with humans too, in real life.)

As I said, my love for fal'Cie goes into my own psychology a good bit. I fear that SE has relegated them to a minor plot detail in the scheme of things, which the thought of really pisses me off.

They are living creatures themselves. How can one just create something that has feelings, autonomy, and then just disown it, discard it away like it never mattered? That's one of the epitomes of evil, in my view. I don't care if "the reason for his/her/its/their life/lives" has left; a living creature is not just something to use. (I feel this way about all life. Hey, I may not go to a horse, or a tree, or a lady bug to do my tax papers, but that doesn't mean I have the right to just discard them, or that they aren't intelligent and meaningful. Hells, I don't even get tax stuff most of the time!)

Hopefully this clears up some of my feelings and where I'm coming from - keep asking questions if you got 'em.

 

[Splintered]

The fal'Cie did not breed humanity to be anything; it was an easier life on Cocoon, so even the wildlife was more trusting, less fearful of others.

That's how they lured there, but I don't think Tres meant breeding by the literal sense. Just in the same way I did, they groomed, shaped, manipulated humanity to be panicky, willingly giving their government too much power, and untrusting of outsiders.

Dysley: Cocoon is a factory, built by falcie. A factory for the mass production of human thralls.

is is revealed in one of the questions asked in 4XX Academia, during the Brain Blaster questions. Humans were not guided, except occasionally by Eden in political matters, they were allowed to live as they wished.

That's what they were led to believe, but it wasn't the case. The OG tells you that humanity is independent, but the primarch is secretly a fal'cie, and the primarch looks to be involved with anything.

Not only that but Sazh expresses frustration that the fal'cie doesn't intervene and points out that during humanity's mistakes they tend to step in. He doesn't know that Eden was already orchestrating the entire thing. And during Lightning's deceleration about destroying Eden, she says that the fal'cie are pulling the Sanctum's strings. When she thinks Dysley is a l'cie this exchange happens

Dysley: You saw those fools. A mindless mob drunk on fear of a few l'cie
Lightning: If they only knew a l'cie was the one filling their glasses

It suggest that the primarch is one of the major contributors to how people are reacting. He calls himself the Voice of the Sanctum, along with lord-soverign of the Cocoon fal'cie. Then Snow comments on how it was a fal'cie running things the whole time. (All of this comes from the exchange in chapter 9 when they first fight Dysley)

True he wasn't micromanaging life, but he was chosing which direction the Sanctum would go. But he was always in control, that's one of the things that makes Dysley who he is in XIII, he is the man behind everything.

He controlled Lightning's and co's every steps
He controlled the Sanctum and thus the power over the people
Hell, he even controlled the anti-fal'cie rebellion growing through his l'cie.

Dysley essentially is playing chess with himself, when pretending he is only a spectator.

. At the same time, their directives demanded it, and fal'Cie cannot physically go against their orders

I think this is what makes the l'cie tragic, is that they can't overcome what they were created for, not like humans.

I'm not sure, however, how the other fal'cie think of this. I remember getting into a lot of discussions after the original game on whether or not all Cocoon fal'cie were complicit in the entire plan, or they were simply forced to follow orders. And how much did fal'cie in Pulse knew. I think it's safe to say Anima knew, it branded Fang and Vanille to destroy Cocoon, and it sat in Bohdum for a good long while. But the other fal'cie didn't seem to care.

They are living creatures themselves. How can one just create something that has feelings, autonomy, and then just disown it, discard it away like it never mattered? That's one of the epitomes of evil, in my view. I don't care if "the reason for his/her/its/their life/lives" has left; a living creature is not just something to use.

This is kind of how I felt why I liked the fal'cie, the irony of it acting like gods and the authority, being coupled with the themes of abandoned, scared children. Having all the power in the world and be essentially slaves. Using and discarding humanity, and being used and discarded itself.

I think they are the most interesting part of the mythology. But part of what makes them fascinating is that they aren't innocent.