Lightning Returns: Final Fantasy XIII

The Twilight Mexican

Ex-SeeD-ingly good
AKA
TresDias
That's how they lured there, but I don't think Tres meant breeding by the literal sense. Just in the same way I did, they groomed, shaped, manipulated humanity to be panicky, willingly giving their government too much power, and untrusting of outsiders.

Yes, that's what I meant. The ignorance and over-dependence weren't the objective of the breeding/grooming (the objective was making enough humans to rip open the door to Valhalla when they were killed), but it was a side-effect of it.

My point was that the worst one can say about Cocoon's human inhabitants (their ignorance and over-dependence) were a direct result of the fal'Cie's manipulations. Humans may have had free will, but free thinking had damn near been removed. Even several party members are guilty of this ignorance at first.
 

Arianna

Holy, Personified
AKA
Katie; Seta.
I also thought of this:

The fal'Cie (plan to) use humans to open the door to the unseen world.

Humans use animals, plants, insects, and one-celled organisms to open the door(s) to an usneen world called "the future", or "progress", what humans hope will make life better for themselves.

The humans are truly no better than the fal'Cie in their usage of other lives they consider "inferior" or "lower". This is the truth of real-life as well as shown in the game (with the bioweapons.)

As Hope said, "What gives a fal'Cie the right to choose (who lives and who dies)?"

Well, what gives humans the right to chose which animal or plant or insect or one-celled organism to breed with which other? Are we ever truly sure (at the start) what the result is truly going to be?

So, there is a great parallel there as well.

The fal'Cie are doing something for the improvement of themselves and the cosmos. Humans do the same under the same beliefs.
 

The Twilight Mexican

Ex-SeeD-ingly good
AKA
TresDias
At least as far as the mythology is concerned, aren't humans and fal'Cie actually superior lifeforms to flora and fauna? In particular, humans were imbued with chaos.

That analogy also somewhat overlooks that humans have to use those other organisms to survive. I'll give you animals, if you would like, but if killing plants and single-celled organisms is morally reprehensible, you're really not giving them any option but suicide -- which would still be the taking of life. :monster:

Also, it's not really like the plants and one-cells are capable of having an existential conversation with the humans about their right to exist. They aren't sentient, nor do they have emotions -- though, again, I'll give you animals should you insist.
 

Arianna

Holy, Personified
AKA
Katie; Seta.
At least as far as the mythology is concerned, aren't humans and fal'Cie actually superior lifeforms to flora and fauna? In particular, humans were imbued with chaos.

That analogy also somewhat overlooks that humans have to use those other organisms to survive. I'll give you animals, if you would like, but if killing plants and single-celled organisms is morally reprehensible, you're really not giving them any option but suicide -- which would still be the taking of life.

Also, it's not really like the plants and one-cells are capable of having an existential conversation with the humans about their right to exist. They aren't sentient, nor do they have emotions -- though, again, I'll give you animals should you insist.

All life has the right to life, despite traits and characteristics. It's not for one to decide for the others; granted, there are times when life has to be taken or it seems there is not other choice (unfortunately.)

It's a food web, not a chain. Humans make great crunchy meals for some other lives, too (including other humans.) When dead, insects and one-celled organisms (hells, even during life with some small organisms) are living upon and inside the human body - both parasitic and symbiotic. Left to nature, the decomposed human will provide food for a new generation of plants. Provided undisturbed, life and death cycles well. Thing is, humans have done much to disrupt this cycle; and the disruption has more and more removed nature.

Actually, studies have shown that plants actually protect their young, themselves, and communicate with each other (and I'd not be surprised if with other lives sensitive enough to "hear" them, and considerate enough to listen.) It's all chemical, but it's still communication. Granted, they are not lives in the sense that humans will ever fully understand, but that doesn't make them "less than"s or "inferior". Yes, they can provide relief and cures for different ailments... I feel this doesn't have to include the undue butcher and murder.

To sum up, it's my belief that humans should be much more respectful towards others (humans and non-humans), lives that are ruthlessly tortured, butchered and murdered daily. I understand food, as I eat meat myself; but, why do humans have to torture them? Why can't we try to make the deaths as quick and as painless as possible? With all of our "progress" we can have more machines and techniques to take lives than to save them or to ease the last days (again, humans and non-humans). Why can't humans respect the lives that will perpetuate their own, who ultimately deserve the honor?

I'm on a soap box to some. I'm stepping off. My beliefs are my own, and for better or worse, I cannot enforce them. Still, I think I have a great point (but don't we all.) Basically it comes down to this: I didn't create these other lives, and no one else alive has either. Just because there are differences doesn't mean that I have the right to use and abuse any other life around me. Humans don't know everything about those lives, and we never will. Does that mean stop learning, no. It means stop being cruel, stop excusing evil for "progress" or "education." Accept we won't know some things, we won't be able to solve some things.

One last thing, medical research... I myself take medicine, and undoubtedly lives were lost testing that medicine. If not lost, they were tortured for it. I need those meds, and I don't know how to find answers without the use of such methods used against animals, plants, etc. I always wondered why don't they use chemicals and levels that the human body can take and different ages, but... Until someone decides to do that (and that would require human testing) - because I'm not a chemist (and feel that I'm not smart enough to be so). This is a truth, I'm not proud of it, but there is one thing I can do: honor those lives lost or harmed. I can pray for them, I can wish them a better afterlife, and I can love them for what they've done to and for me. This may sound stupid or primitive, but it's a thing that never should have left the human psyche, even when science permeated life; honor those who do so much for you, how is that wrong or stupid, even if for 'such a little and insignificant life'?

Yeah, maybe I'm nuts. I don't think I'm wrong, though.

To get onto the subject of XIII: I believe that all life has chaos, because all life goes back to chaos. Humanity in the XIII-universe were not created by that which created all other lives (granted Titan and other such fal'Cie do provide a counter argument to this, and I don't know how to defend against that.) Humans would have no chaos until given it. I do not feel that any life is less than, it's just the humans who believe such - and since we are human, we only see the human side of things. If chaos is that which gives the power to use magic, for instance, than it only proves fal'Cie and other non-human lives have choas, because some of them use magic (tortoises, behemoths, plant-like creatures, etc.) I said this before, though... here or on another XIII related thread. Humans were given divine gifts by Etro, fal'Cie were given divine gifts by Bhunivelze, while other lives were given divine gifts by whoever created them and/or the cycles of life.

Personal speculation: I'm really starting to think that perhaps Mwynn knew how to control the chaos, knew how to keep herself from fully being enveloped into the substance that all life comes from and returns to. I think she is who led Lindzei to create humans, and perhaps has led other events in the course of existence. Mwynn may mean "tenderness" - but that doesn't mean she can't have a mean streak, and want revenge against her son, or maybe even needs to be with her son, for some cosmic reason - despite Bhunivelze's apparent hatred of her. I mean, we are told Yeul resembles Etro who resembles Mwynn... (and now I just thought of that three figured statue in the village of the farseers.)
 

The Twilight Mexican

Ex-SeeD-ingly good
AKA
TresDias
I think we've gotten afield of the topic with the real-world analysis. I'm only talking about the Fabula Nova Crystallis mythology, where it's actually the fal'Cie who have perpetrated the disruption of the cycle and interferred with nature. You're applying your views of humans in the real world to your view of them in this fiction, where they're actually analogous to our real-world cattle.

As far as real life goes, yes, more consideration should be taken. However, I also feel that spending too much time mulling over things like this is as unproductive as contemplating the scope of the universe, our origins and where existence is heading. None of that stuff matters much since we're here right now and that's all we know. If you feel overwhelmed by such thoughts, you need to head down to the soup kitchen or volunteer at one of those Big Brother/Big Sister organizations.

We can't protect everything, so we have to decide what we value and prioritize. Just like you can't devote your life to making everyone equally happy, all life forms can't -- and shouldn't be -- prioritized. Would you agree that viruses and bacteria that can only destroy us should be held in any esteem whatsoever? If not, why not? Why do we have the right to decide that those shouldn't be allowed to replicate without check and eat us alive?

Death is simply necessary for life. It's either the viruses/bacteria/plants/animals or us. :monster:
 
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Arianna

Holy, Personified
AKA
Katie; Seta.
Death is simply necessary for life. It's either the viruses/bacteria/plants/animals or us.

Point missed: We're all in the same cycle. There is no "them" and there is no "us". Well, not in the bigger picture. Anyhow... I'll get to the rest later.
 

Splintered

unsavory tart
I think this is the one point I can't reconcile. I can't handwave attempts of mass genocide by saying humans are bad to animals too. It sounds too much like the movement to compare animal treatment and the holocaust, and that drives me up the wall. I understand the arguments and it's noble that you hold those beliefs Arianna, I'm not trying to get on your case. I guess it really is a difference of philosophy.

But I don't see how it applies to XIII, they don't have the same world as we do. They don't have mass producing chicken farms, the fal'cie are in charge of their food anyway. Pulse killed animals in self defense because they were legitimately dangerous. And XIII-2 was about hunting for food.

I believe that all life has chaos, because all life goes back to chaos
Is this proved? My understanding was that chaos in people's hearts takes people to Valhalla, and nothing else opens to door to Valhalla but humans, otherwise they could just raze down wildlife. Chaos isn't the lifestream, it's closer to the divine- not natural in the world but still everywhere.
 

The Twilight Mexican

Ex-SeeD-ingly good
AKA
TresDias
Point missed: We're all in the same cycle. There is no "them" and there is no "us". Well, not in the bigger picture. Anyhow... I'll get to the rest later.

No, no, I got that point. I mean in day-to-day existence -- we either prioritize ourselves at the cost of plants, animals and microscopic organisms or we choose to let the more hostile ones do it to us.

And unlike us, none of them can be reasoned with to even consider the concerns you bring up.

You say we're all part of the same cycle, and that's true. But it's also true that overpopulation happens among animals within their ecosystems, requiring unequal allocation of resources, greater competition for them, and even a need to migrate. Carnivores have been known to run their primary food source to ruin.

Look at viruses too -- if the more hostile ones had it their way, they would replicate beyond their own ability to survive. They would infect all potential hosts, kill all those hosts and then be left to die themselves. It's what they do. They can't do anything else.

So, yes, I say it's them or us because that's the reality of our situation. For them and for us.

Also, just want to reiterate the point again that FFXIII's mythology isn't analogous to our situation in the real world.
 

Arianna

Holy, Personified
AKA
Katie; Seta.
(I just hate what humans have done to the world; themselves and other creatures.)

Alright, back to XIII...

Humans hold responsibility to some of the events of XIII.

The fal'Cie did very little to interfere with how the humans did anything; granted, again, Eden stepped in when gaffs were made. In fact, the fal'Cie up until then, granted humanity's (almost) every wish.

Just because Barthandelus took a human guise and held the position of Primarch in that guise does not mean the fal'Cie rule humans. He did it because it was time for his plans to come to the fore. There were quite human primarchs/prime ministers in Cocoon's history.

I have to say this is part of the story I did not understand, 'cause it was not clearly shown in either the game or the novels (Episode 0). Eden did step in on occasion to right political gaffs, as we're told; but outright rule humanity...??? I don't see how that is "ruling over" humans.
 

Splintered

unsavory tart
My intention wasn't to say they ruled humanity, but they guided/shaped/groomed it from positions of power. They weren't kings but they were manipulators, they shaped humanity so that it would react just the way they needed it too.

They created an overdependent, overindulgent community that was fed a steady diet of fear in Pulse. This way when anything regarding Pulse came on Cocoon, the reaction of the public was terrified and violent. iirc, the translation of War of Transgression is actually wrong because the original title is actually something of "war that started for reasons we don't know" or something like that. They even controlled the information they were given. Then because of how terrified and overdependent they were, they never even stopped to question what the Sanctum was doing, they even supported it.

They were manipulated for hundreds of years to ensure that this very thing would play out how Dysley wanted it.

It's true that Dysley didn't make all the decisions. But he set up the rules, he chose the players, he groomed the environment, and he had a hand in the positions of power.

Besides, my interpretation of the fal'cie is that they didn't have to go out and destroy Cocoon. Their focus was to keep the world running running, that's why Bart couldn't do anything to harm Cocoon. But they were manipulated by Pulse and Lindzei into believing that they could only see them if they did certain actions. That's why they used l'cie, because what they were doing was outside of their focus.

They were slaves, but not to destroy Cocoon. They were manipulated into it, and unlike humans they didn't have the power and will to go against their manipulation. If anything Bart embraced the opportunity.
 

Arianna

Holy, Personified
AKA
Katie; Seta.
My intention wasn't to say they ruled humanity, but they guided/shaped/groomed it from positions of power. They weren't kings but they were manipulators, they shaped humanity so that it would react just the way they needed it too.

They created an overdependent, overindulgent community that was fed a steady diet of fear in Pulse. This way when anything regarding Pulse came on Cocoon, the reaction of the public was terrified and violent. iirc, the translation of War of Transgression is actually wrong because the original title is actually something of "war that started for reasons we don't know" or something like that. They even controlled the information they were given. Then because of how terrified and overdependent they were, they never even stopped to question what the Sanctum was doing, they even supported it.

They were manipulated for hundreds of years to ensure that this very thing would play out how Dysley wanted it.

It's true that Dysley didn't make all the decisions. But he set up the rules, he chose the players, he groomed the environment, and he had a hand in the positions of power.

Besides, my interpretation of the fal'cie is that they didn't have to go out and destroy Cocoon. Their focus was to keep the world running running, that's why Bart couldn't do anything to harm Cocoon. But they were manipulated by Pulse and Lindzei into believing that they could only see them if they did certain actions. That's why they used l'cie, because what they were doing was outside of their focus.

They were slaves, but not to destroy Cocoon. They were manipulated into it, and unlike humans they didn't have the power and will to go against their manipulation. If anything Bart embraced the opportunity.

Okay, I see what you're saying now.

I just don't feel the fal'Cie are 100% responsible. Nature, if not human nature, did most of the work. Barthandelus only needed to work on the l'Cie.

Yes, the destruction of Cocoon was kept from the people - and if I am not mistaken, that's the only (though a very large piece of) information kept secret. Everything else was pretty open, except what humans kept from other humans (which I feel was the issue with the Purge.)

The story doesn't make a good argument on 'fal'Cie rule', at least to me. I guess I could see how Eden stepping in from time to time would look like interference to some (not to me.)
 

Strangelove

AI Researcher
AKA
hitoshura
iirc, the translation of War of Transgression is actually wrong because the original title is actually something of "war that started for reasons we don't know" or something like that. They even controlled the information they were given. Then because of how terrified and overdependent they were, they never even stopped to question what the Sanctum was doing, they even supported it.
It was 黙示戦争 (mokuji sensou; revelation war or tacit/implied war), the reason for the name being given in the datalog (and I think Hope mentions it at one point) directly due to the fact that the fal'Cie didn't reveal details of the battle to the public and defended Cocoon in silence. That line is missing from the English version all together.

In English the name seems to derive from Pulse's 'transgression' into Cocoon, whereas in Japanese it originates from how the Cocoon fal'Cie handled the issue.
 

Lex

Administrator
I like this stuff and think it's all really cool but I've never been a huge fan of models. I accidentally own one of Nathan Drake from Uncharted 3 (I bought the Explorer Edition) and it kinda just sits in its box untouched. I prefer other kinds of merchandise, like the rings or character themed pendants.

I just don't know what to do with them. Maybe I'd have them sitting out if I had more space.
 

Ghost X

Moderator
Can't play with 'em, since they get damaged. Can't sit 'em out anywhere, because they collect dust. *sadface*.
 

Hisako

消えないひさ&#
AKA
Satsu, BRIAN BLESSED, MIGHTY AND WISE Junpei Iori: Ace Detective, Maccaffrickstonson von Lichtenstafford Frabenschnaben, Polite Krogan, Robert Baratheon
It looks nice in the photos because they doctor the lighting (as they do with most PAK vanity shots :monster:). The amount of skin being flaunted still makes me cringe because I think it's functionally stupid (especially for a once-understated and quite-functional character design we initially saw in the first game), but we've been there and done all that argument already, so I don't have much more to say about it other than I like the color scheme. :wacky:

Can't play with 'em, since they get damaged. Can't sit 'em out anywhere, because they collect dust. *sadface*.


imo Play Arts Kai are the sorts of poseables that you fiddle around with a bit and then stick in a cabinet or on a shelf for Massive Cool. They're not for playing around with in the strictest sense, I think. :monster:

I don't personally own any myself, but I often buy some for my friends as a birthday gift. Some of them (like the 20th anniversary MGS1 Solid Snake and MGS2 Solidus) have huge amounts of articulation (all the way down to the toes of the foot) to compensate for the lack of baseplate stability and add poseability on a shelf, but I find the more moveable and poseable parts there are on the figurine the more pops off, probably because of up-and-down QA in manufacturing. You wouldn't want to be groping and fumbling with those sorts of things, unless you wanted bits and pieces getting lost.
... Speaking of which, does this one come with a baseplate?
 

Arianna

Holy, Personified
AKA
Katie; Seta.
http://sphotos-d.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-prn1/946945_167870780055945_1436490079_n.jpg

New LRFFXIII wallscroll!!!

Can't play with 'em, since they get damaged. Can't sit 'em out anywhere, because they collect dust. *sadface*.

I like this stuff and think it's all really cool but I've never been a huge fan of models. I accidentally own one of Nathan Drake from Uncharted 3 (I bought the Explorer Edition) and it kinda just sits in its box untouched. I prefer other kinds of merchandise, like the rings or character themed pendants.

I just don't know what to do with them. Maybe I'd have them sitting out if I had more space.

I have XIII's Vanille, in which Georgia van Cuylenburg was very kind enough to sign for me! ^_^ (I know some people don't like Vanille, but her voice actress (same with Fang's and Lightning's) is a complete and utter doll!) Presently, it's still in the box, which I plan to keep it there until either I die and it passes on, or I find a good dirt-free, controlled place to display it. Though since I have the autographed box, I probably should just keep it there. :P
 
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Splintered

unsavory tart

I utterly dislike Lightning's outfit but why does it look awesome in official art. Maybe it's just the awesome looking background, if I didn't know any better I would say Bresha since it's all crystal. But then you can see evidence of a building that kind of looks like Valhalla architecture.

Oh and I like how the background crystal swirl looks like crystallized Cocoon, nice touch.

I have XIII's Vanille, in which Georgia van Cuylenburg was very kind enough to sign for me! ^_^ (I know some people don't like Vanille, but her voice actress (same with Fang's and Lightning's) is a complete and utter doll!) Presently, it's still in the box, which I plan to keep it there until either I die and it passes on, or I find a good dirt-free, controlled place to display it. Though since I have the autographed box, I probably should just keep it there. :P
Yeah I didn't like her voice, but I love how open a lot of the VAs are. Snow, Lightning, Fang, Serah, and Vanille VAs are so enthusiastic about their roles it's hard to be negative.
 

Kuja9001

Ooooh Salty!
AKA
roxas9001, Krat0s9001, DarkSlayerZero
Next week's Jump confirms that Snow will be returning in LRFFXIII! Snow is the governor of the City of Pleasure, and he continues to harbor regrets of not being able to save Serah. Apparently his new design spots a black suit like those worn by a host in Japan.

http://m.neogaf.com/showthread.php?t=577005&page=1
 
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