Lightning Returns: Final Fantasy XIII

Lex

Administrator
You just have to realize that SEX SELLS. And deal with that. .

Dude, that's incredibly condescending. There isn't a person above the age of 12 that doesn't know that, and there isn't a person here that's buying this game for Lightning's new jiggle physics and cup size, even if some people do see it as an added "perk", which I don't.

I'm sure if the FF series were more inclined towards the female persuasion, Snow's butt would look tighter than it's ever been. That's just how it is.

Except we already know that Final Fantasy has a larger female fanbase than any other franchise out there, so that argument just falls flat on its ass.
 

Groodon

That XIII guy
I don't know about you guys but because of this, my choice to buy this game went from a absolute no to a must buy. Always felt there was something missing in past games.

... /s
 

The Twilight Mexican

Ex-SeeD-ingly good
AKA
TresDias
My issue lies also to the way it was said. But then again, there's only one site who translated it, and the others considered that as the main source. The idea of the situation itself is off-putting, but the way it is conveyed/worded can slightly change how we'd perceive it. I know that it's true they discussed it, but I'm still quite doubtful of the translation's accuracy.

Here is the original source of the Q&A: http://www.famitsu.com/news/201307/27037360.html

I don't know, maybe someone here who is fluent in the language can help translating.

I looked into it. That link there doesn't have the key part of the exchange, though it does include the question and response about whether it's true that Lightning has gone from a C-cup to a D-cup.

Here's where the part we're concerned with came from:

http://news.dengeki.com/elem/000/000/679/679970/

・胸が揺れるそうですが…?
 ライトニングの胸が揺れる? という質問に対して、キャラクターチームのデザイナー後藤宣広さんは、ズバリ「胸は揺れます」と回答。「個々の衣装によって設定が微妙に違ったりしますので、よく確認していただければ(笑)」と付け加えた。ちなみに、メニュー画面で武器の装備を変更するとライトニングが腕を振り下ろすため、そこで揺れを確認するのがオススメらしい(さらに、小さめの盾を装備しておくと見やすい)。楽しみにしておこう。

The reported quote we've been seeing is this:

"Yes, her chest jiggles. Since everyone can decide what costume she’ll wear, you can make sure it does (laughs). By the way, since Lightning swings her arm when you change her weapon in the menu screen, that’s a recommended action for sure-fire jiggling! To see it even better, it could be useful to equip a small shield. Look forward to it!"

The only parts actually in quotation marks from the original article are "Yes, her chest jiggles" (「胸は揺れます」) and "Since everyone can decide what costume she’ll wear, you can make sure it does" (「個々の衣装によって設定が微妙に違ったりしますので、よく確認していただければ(笑)」), but I think that second sentence wasn't quite translated properly. It should be something more like, "Her configuration changes with each outfit, if you check often (laughs)."

The rest of the purported quote was actually just editorializing by the author of the Dengeki Online article, but got picked up for the translation and attributed as part of the quote.

By the way, it was Nobuhiro Goto (the character modeling designer) who was quoted here. I think the impression had gotten around that it was Toriyama who said this part.

Anyway, the "equip a small shield so you can see it better" and "look forward to it!" quotes weren't from the dev team. Still, Goto was arguably using the whole thing to promote the game with the "check often" quote that he actually did say, and there's no doubt that stuff like the full-page spread Splintered talked about has been.
 
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Blade

That Man
AKA
Darkside-Ky/Mimeblade
Dude, that's incredibly condescending. There isn't a person above the age of 12 that doesn't know that, and there isn't a person here that's buying this game for Lightning's new jiggle physics and cup size, even if some people do see it as an added "perk", which I don't.

I would. New Jiggle Physics are always welcome. Also no condescendence intended. Just trying to say that if a game has to sell, it's going to do what it has to to get those dollars (or yen in this case).

Except we already know that Final Fantasy has a larger female fanbase than any other franchise out there, so that argument just falls flat on its ass.

Was that a pun? Also if the female fanbase is larger compared to other games, then why not actively see to it you get what you want from Square-Enix? Make a petition or write a letter that says less Asian-looking guys and more handsome Brad Pitt looking types (I dunno I have no idea what you like)?

I honestly don't take visual appearance seriously when it comes to video games or RPGs. It's a visual diversion to what you're really aiming to do and not much else. Sure it effects characterization and mood a little bit... But so long as the character is recognizable and familiar and like-able whilst fighting monsters and leveling up that's all that really matters in my mind.

Playing as a stylish character with unique outfits sure beats a bald faceless space marine any day of the week as far as I'm concerned, but in the end no matter what character is being played as, you're still doing what you've always done in a Final Fantasy game: fight monsters and level up.

I'm not trying to be a wet blanket here, I just think sex appeal (while necessary albeit shallow) won't really change Lightning much at all as a character.

I believe it was Toriyama himself who suggested that "this Lighting" is "your own (individual) Lightning".

Basically anyone who plays the game is going to have their own individual DIFFERENT experience with it based on their own expectations and choices.

I don't believe anyone will be disappointed, simply because you get to CHOOSE how you want Lightning to be.

If you want her to dress to the nines or wear a bunny suit, that's ENTIRELY up to you. It'll be YOUR game... So worrying about all this just kinda feels pointless to me.
 

The Twilight Mexican

Ex-SeeD-ingly good
AKA
TresDias
You do make some good points that I can't disagree with, though I will say -- based on Lightning's popularity and sells of the past two XIII games -- this wasn't a route they actually had to take for the game to be successful.
 

ForceStealer

Double Growth
And Final Fantasy absolutely fanservices up their male characters. Even if it's not to the same extent as the female ones, they do. I understand there is more to this debate than that, but let's not pretend that Cloud,
Cissnei_and_Zack_Costa_del_Sol_by_GenmaHayatefan.jpg
(especially),
20110505063903!Tidus_-_012_CG.png
, Auron, and Snow (previously imaged) haven't been whored out.
 

Blade

That Man
AKA
Darkside-Ky/Mimeblade
You do make some good points that I can't disagree with, though I will say -- based on Lightning's popularity and sells of the past two XIII games -- this wasn't a route they actually had to take for the game to be successful.

Of course, that was before Yoichi Wada stepped down.

It was also back when Final Fantasy XIII was still fresh in people's minds and not stretched thin beyond their patience...with people feverishly champing at the bit for Versus XIII (now XV).

I think this is Squeenix's way of "attempting" to appease a currently harsh crowd.
 

Lex

Administrator
I would requote my initial post but that feels a bit cheeky, so I'll just say I don't actually care if they put Lightning in this game naked, I just think it's wrong to put such an emphasis on the fans ability to do so because it puts the fans in a box and it's a box that I and a lot of other fans just aren't in.
 

Blade

That Man
AKA
Darkside-Ky/Mimeblade
No it doesn't.

That's just a thing people keep saying and for some reason just take it as truth. The sooner everyone stops spreading this nonsense, the better. :comedian:

Okay, smart person, if Sex doesn't sell...then why do Prostitutes exist? Why do couples use "sleeping on the couch" as a bargaining chip/threat to win arguments?

If Sex doesn't sell, why do Runway Supermodels and Top-Billed Movie Actresses get paid so much?

If Sex doesn't sell, why is ROMANCE considered a genre? And if a particular Romance has nothing to do with Sex, what percentage of the population would actually buy into it?

If Sex doesn't sell, why does the Plastic Surgery Industry continue to thrive? If Sex doesn't sell, why do women still continue to suffer low self-esteem?

If Sex doesn't sell, what's the point of TROJAN MAN?

If Sex doesn't sell, why are there always always ALWAYS Seifuku, Bathing Suit, Cheerleader, Catgirl/Bunnygirl, and Nurse/Nun outfits in games featuring cute girls as DLC?

If you can answer these questions, and hopefully make the world a better place, I will agree with you... Until then... Sorry, but, no.
 

Mwynn

Tenderness
:monster:

I think a change of topic is in need. You know, that other stuff they mainly showcased in the event.

tumblr_mqlgxmlIu71rfe186o6_500.jpg


Lemme start off by pointing out this Mog accessory which is the cutest thing ever. I'm going to wear one for a whole playthrough.

tumblr_mqlgxmlIu71rfe186o4_500.jpg


Also taking this chance to finally get to use her XIII-2 outfit on the field. I'm gonna start the game wearing it.

tumblr_mqlgtzOzwC1rfe186o4_500.jpg


It feels like forever since I actually interacted with a traditional shop in an offline FF main title, so this is nice to see for me.

tumblr_mqlgh9LfWn1rfe186o1_500.jpg
tumblr_mqlgdjGYVv1rfe186o1_500.jpg
tumblr_mqlgdjGYVv1rfe186o2_500.jpg


Yusnaan has a really interesting mixture of Victorian architecture and neon lights. None of the continents has really impressed me frankly speaking, but Yusnaan's style stands out to me.

Also, here are some translated impressions from an attender, which is a bit more fleshed out than what sites have posted.

http://eternallight13.tumblr.com/post/56600681785/lrffxiii-translation-of-comments-on-new-play-demo

http://eternallight13.tumblr.com/post/56609844727/lrffxiii-additional-information-on-play-demo

The strong hint of Vanille being the leader of this religious institute in Luxerion is making me hopeful that she'll get a new look. Also expecting Sazh to be in the Wildlands. Because chocobos.
 

The Twilight Mexican

Ex-SeeD-ingly good
AKA
TresDias
I'd actually be interested in more of an explanation of what you're saying, Tets, since -- as far as I can tell -- Blade's claim is accurate. There must be a reason anime and comic book companies keep commissioning statuettes of their hot female characters in alluring poses, then charging hundreds of dollars for them.
 

Arianna

Holy, Personified
AKA
Katie; Seta.
It's a sad fact that sex does sell; the more beautiful one is, the better one is usually treated.

For such 'evolved' and such a 'superior' species, humanity is none the wiser than our wild ancestors of long ago, and our cousins and distant family surrounding us in nature today. Hells, sometimes I do think they treat life better than humanity because of the fact that even the omega of a group is allowed to eat, is groomed, and is overall taken care of.

Some people do look beyond the outside, but alas it is still proven in psychology and business that it does depend on what one looks like, more so than much else.

For one, I long for a day when people will see beyond my fat body and plain over-all appearance, to see that I am a lot more than an unattractive shell; I speak with some authority, because I have been forced to know what others think of me all my life.

Live the change you wish to see in the world. Don't treat others based on their appearance, but try to learn about them and find something that makes them a great person. Call out those who do not do the same; and, don't be afraid to do something different. It's hard, it's painful, and it's a lonely road, but hopefully from it will come a more peaceful existence for all, as well as the kindness and maturity humanity claims to already have (but show's it doesn't.)
 
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ForceStealer

Double Growth
Hells, sometimes I do think they treat life better than humanity because of the fact that even the omega of a group is allowed to eat, is groomed, and is overall taken care of.

Unless, you know, the alpha decides to eat them. Or they're left behind when they can't keep up with the herd/pack. I'm not arguing man's enlightenment so much as nature's kindness. There's a reason the word "human" is in "humane". Nature is nasty and brutal.


Anyway, thanks Mwynn. I'm the FF13 outfit all the way. But I sure hope you're right about Sazh. 13-2 needed moar of him.
 

Tetsujin

he/they
AKA
Tets
I'd actually be interested in more of an explanation of what you're saying, Tets, since -- as far as I can tell -- Blade's claim is accurate. There must be a reason anime and comic book companies keep commissioning statuettes of their hot female characters in alluring poses, then charging hundreds of dollars for them.

Sex as a product itself sells, yeah, but it doesn't really enhance sales of something where sex was never the main appeal to begin with.
 

Splintered

unsavory tart
Yusnaan has a really interesting mixture of Victorian architecture and neon lights. None of the continents has really impressed me frankly speaking, but Yusnaan's style stands out to me.
This kind of makes me sad because even as excited as I am, I have to agree. I actually like the basic concept behind Luxerion, with the furniture in the streets idea, but the initial view was so underwhelming I just don't feel it. I know that they said that was a very rough early view, so hopefully by the time it comes out it will blow me away, or it'll just be really fun to explore.

The desert looks like... any other desert level. And the one badly capped screencap of what I'm assuming is the wildlands is disappointing. It looks so.... plain.

The arc is really pretty though.

Oh and this worries me

Even though Serah sounds like a victim now, Lightning doesn’t seem to be bothered by this. Hope remembers things that happened in the past, but cannot recall the emotions he once felt. “Do we not need a heart for being the Gods’ messengers?”
noooooooooo that actually makes me sad. Lightning has done everything for Serah and now this? I hope their reunion makes me cry buckets.

Anyway, for the sexuality argument, didn't we have an entire thread on it? I know there was a discussion on it in the comicbook hawkeye initiative thread, and there was one towards the end in the female protagonists in gaming.

It's probably more appropriate in that thread but since it was brought up I think the last few posts are kind of relevant.



Nice study

"How Males Gamers see Non-Sexualized Females in Games" - paraphrased
So there’s this scientific study which actually looks at what people think, instead of making assumptions. Isn’t it interesting how game publishers just assume what the market wants instead of, you know, research what the market wants?
While this study is limited to Sweden it actually does something. The results are actually overwhelmingly surprising.
Abstract: “Some game publishers and developers do not think that games with non-sexualized female protagonists are worth making because they would not sell. With close to a half of gamers being female (47%) it is a bit puzzling that they are not catered to. This could be because publishers think that male gamers, who they perceive as their main demographic, would not buy games with non-sexualized female protagonists. A study was done to see if that statement is correct. By questioning 91 Swedish male gamers, aged 18 and above, it was found that in games where one can choose the character’s sex 46% of the subjects play as a female character at least half of the time and in total 90% of the 91 subjects have at some point chosen to play as a female character. No one of the subjects have any negative thoughts about there being more games with non-sexualized female protagonists who are heroic in their own right and not a trophy, when asked 47% said it would be “Very good”, 24% said it would be “Good” and 29% said that they have “No opinion” in the matter.”
Follow the link to dowload the PDF and read the thing. It’s no more than 15 pages (excluding references and appendices) and if you want, at least read the “Conlusion” part.
http://hgo.diva-portal.org/smash/rec...3A630847&rvn=1
Could I get some help spreading this please?
Interesting study. I think most gamers are grown up enough that they don't need to have an over the top cover to buy the game at all. I wish marketing would just grow up with it.

That said, Remember Me was brought up not too long ago, and that made a lot of waves. I think Jimquisition sort of brought it up best



If you can get passed the smarmy personality, it's part of his shtick, he actually says some interesting things. Jimquisition is sometimes a bit ragey at the publishers but he knows his stuff.


But overall, since when has gamers every stood there with their tumbs up their asses and blindly accepted "because it sells more." We criticize them for day 1 on disc dlcs. We criticize them for poorly implemented multiplayer. We criticize them for microtransactions.

The idea that sexier Lightning, who was already attractive to begin with, will get more people to buy the game is dumb- especially when you risk alienating a piece of your already existing fanbase. The idea that we should accept stupid shit from companies because "it sells more" and not be vocal about the things we don't like- that is dumb. The idea that we should expect established and well liked characters to be twisted to support such visions is dumb (imagine Elena Fisher in a bikini). The idea that women need to be sexy to get guys to shell out money is dumb. And if it's really true, then the fact that women must be sexualized to give the game "the best shot" like said in one of the videos, is sad and dumb. I main-ed Tifa in Dissidia 012 and did you see the way her boobs bounced like it was possessed- you think I bought the game for that? That was dumb too.

It's all just dumb.

Sexy women or even sexualized women in gaming isn't dumb, and the fact that people enjoy sexy women isn't dumb either. There are people who enjoy that and no sense on bringing them down for their own preferences.

But this view that the Final Fantasy fandom of all people, is a homogenous group and the demographics that see this character they enjoyed being suddenly presented in a certain way because "everyone likes it" is dumb. Look at this thread. Look at who is posting. Look at the large part of the viewership that is so put off by it they feel the need to voice it.

Most of them aren't trying to destroy LR, or making 160 thousand dollars videos on the evils gendered gaming. It's people just saying no.

It'll quiet down anyway, when they stop throwing fodder at the already on edge fans. Remember Serah and the bikini? Remember the anger? Do you still see it? No, because it dissipated as soon as the next costume dlc came out. Fans will react to whatever you give them.

I wasn't even going to post on this, and now it's longer than my original part, it's not even that interesting. I need to stop talking about this.

EDIT

Oh and a side note, that video I posted- LR actually defies a lot of the issues brought up by it. The fact that female protagonists get shoved to the side and ignored in marketing because it "might hurt sales" doesn't really apply to LR because Lightning gets marketed on there even if she's not really in the game *cough XIII-2*

I mostly brought it up because doing shit to female characters (or male characters too) because of "hurting sales" isn't a particularly good idea, and I thought it was the video he was talking about how Naughty Dog fought to put in female focus testers- showing that it's not necessarily women don't buy games, they just ignore that part of the audience.

Toriyama & Kitase: We were talking about a X-0 involving Braska, Jecht, and Auron...but it was just a party of men and did not seem to have that flare, so we went and created the all-female team (for FFX-2).
I've seen this interview actually translated a lot differently. But imo Toriyama just has a preference for female characters, that's why they pretty much upstaged most of the male characters. At least in terms of plot. I also think he enjoys fanservicy girls too, and that's why all of this stuff is happening to Lightning, and the X-2, being shot down for the Honey Bee Inn, and a lot of the fanservice in 3rd Birthday.

But that's all my baseless assumptions. I like making those.

EDIT: I said the above post was my final say on it but I'm a liar
 
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The Twilight Mexican

Ex-SeeD-ingly good
AKA
TresDias
Sex as a product itself sells, yeah, but it doesn't really enhance sales of something where sex was never the main appeal to begin with.

Okay, I agree with that, yeah. That was my point earlier when I said --

You do make some good points that I can't disagree with, though I will say -- based on Lightning's popularity and sells of the past two XIII games -- this wasn't a route they actually had to take for the game to be successful.

Even with the statues of female comic book characters in often sexy poses, the fans who are attracted to them already are probably not going to be more convinced to buy it on that basis than they already were at the announcement of "it's a statue of that hot comic chick you like." And people who weren't already fans of the character probably aren't going to buy it just because it's a hot woman in a sexy pose.

It's a sad fact that sex does sell; the more beautiful one is, the better one is usually treated.

I don't think those two ideas necessarily go together. It's sad that the more beautiful one is, the better they are usually treated, sure, but it's not sad that sex sells. No more so anyway than that good food or anything else that appeals to our basic needs/instincts does.

For one, I long for a day when people will see beyond my fat body and plain over-all appearance, to see that I am a lot more than an unattractive shell; I speak with some authority, because I have been forced to know what others think of me all my life.

I've seen pictures of you, and there's nothing wrong with your appearance. I find you attractive.

The idea that we should accept stupid shit from companies because "it sells more" and not be vocal about the things we don't like- that is dumb.

Voting with your wallet is your most powerful voice. :monster:
 
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Arianna

Holy, Personified
AKA
Katie; Seta.
Unless, you know, the alpha decides to eat them. Or they're left behind when they can't keep up with the herd/pack. I'm not arguing man's enlightenment so much as nature's kindness. There's a reason the word "human" is in "humane". Nature is nasty and brutal.

I ... have no clue if that actually happens. I am sure it could, but if that's the actual way of it... ?!?!?!?! Though, I heard of an alpha female who was operated on, returned to her pack, and a few days later found dead. The other wolves would not leave her stitches alone, and ... it was gruesome. So... Even the alpha(s) faces crap deals.
 

Blade

That Man
AKA
Darkside-Ky/Mimeblade
Here's the thing: much like Splintered said, some game developers/publishers have a lot of misconceptions in their heads about the demographics they're aiming for.

When they have those misconceptions in their heads, along with the thoughts that their game isn't selling, they panic; they overanalyze; they make mistakes.

Those mistakes lead to the problems we're discussing.

Those mistakes also lead to a loss in customers for said developers if too many are made.

I believe the likes of Capcom and Namco-Bandai have made their share of mistakes already.

Why do you think the Dating Sim genre hasn't taken off anywhere outside of Japan?

Heck, even games like Galgun or Berserk probably would NEVER sell in the states because of publishing expectations mixed with customer reaction.

America and Europe are a lot looser compared to Australia and New Zealand and even Korea by comparison...but still...they're going to KEEP selling what they KNOW is going to sell (even if it seems trite and stupid and gender-biased, so long as it brings in the dollars they only want to sell what works).

Call it publisher paranoia if you want...but it keeps a ton of great games overseas, which is a shame.

It's all about the Benjamins, baby.
 
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AvecAloes

Donator
I ... have no clue if that actually happens. I am sure it could, but if that's the actual way of it... ?!?!?!?! Though, I heard of an alpha female who was operated on, returned to her pack, and a few days later found dead. The other wolves would not leave her stitches alone, and ... it was gruesome. So... Even the alpha(s) faces crap deals.

Oh, it definitely actually happens. See: nearly every nature documentary ever. Also, you think humans are cruel? Try killer whales hunting baby seals: they actually make a game of it, where they force the baby seal into deep waters and then toss it about like a rag doll until well after it is dead. Why do they do it? They could be "merciful" and just eat the thing in one bite, no torture, but they don't go that route.

:checks thread topic:

Oh, um, Lightning's boobs, or something.

No, but seriously. It's stupid, unnecessary, and I would argue immature, but I don't think it's going to lessen my enjoyment of the game the way that actually changing her personality to be more like a cutesy anime sex pot would. People who want to see her in a cat-person get-up will buy that outfit, people who don't want to see it won't.
 

Fangu

Great Old One
Re: animal kingdom - nature is gross, brutal and painful. There is nothing more fair and honest about the way animals treat each other than humans - they torture each other for their own gain. Like, lions will catch a baby antelope, take it back to their cubs who hasn't fully developed their teeth yet, and use it to teach them the difference between "alive, so you must kill it with your teeth" and "dead, now you can eat it". It works because the stub teeth of the cubs will keep it alive longer than if they were sharp, that's why they do it why the cubs don't have proper teeth yet.

This romantic idea that the animal kingdom is cruel free I do not know where comes from. Maybe from documentaries about wild life - they tend to focus on the "strong lion" who "quickly ends the antelope after a fair run/ fight", but they never show the ugly side of it.

Anyone who's seen their kind, old pet dog viciously kill their pet rabbits in front of their eyes starts developing an understanding of any animal's instinct though :wacky:

Oh, and yes. Snow's ass. Or something. :P
 

The Twilight Mexican

Ex-SeeD-ingly good
AKA
TresDias
You'd think more people would know the reality of it. Lots of people have cats, and they're cruel little fuckers. Our cat can have a bowl full of food and torture moles/crickets/other small things for half an hour before killing and eating them.

I've taken animals away from him and put them out of their misery just because it's fucked up.
 
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Arianna

Holy, Personified
AKA
Katie; Seta.
... I'm going to create another thread for the nature issue. It'll be in the debate sub-forum.
 
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