Locked Heart // Tifa Lockhart

[Ite]

I agree with Dacon. Tifa wasn't exactly the motherly type in FFVII, she left Marlene to handle a bar in the slums so she could go blow up a building.

It's no surprise to me in AC when they plopped her down right where she started in FFVII, because that's what they did with EVERYONE. But in AC, she doesn't have any higher calling like fighting Shinra or learning anything, she's just eking out a living doing bullshit. I mean, if you're going to have her go back to the fucking shire, at least make the ring evil.

Tifa doesn't suck in AC, AC sucks because they made her a main character without giving her anything to do.

 

[Vendel]

I agree with Dacon. Tifa wasn't exactly the motherly type in FFVII, she left Marlene to handle a bar in the slums so she could go blow up a building.

I thought I just explained this?

It's no surprise to me in AC when they plopped her down right where she started in FFVII, because that's what they did with EVERYONE. But in AC, she doesn't have any higher calling like fighting Shinra or learning anything, she's just eking out a living doing bullshit. I mean, if you're going to have her go back to the fucking shire, at least make the ring evil.

Again what would you have Tifa or any of the other characters doing instead?

Tifa doesn't suck in AC, AC sucks because they made her a main character without giving her anything to do.

I wish I had this rarely released version of AC where Tifa sits at home all day and does nothing.

 

[Ite]

Tifa isn't an active member of AC's plot, but she's a main character for some reason because things keep happening to her but her character doesn't go through any kind of change. That's what I mean.

 

[Dashell]

In her FF7 days she was running around fighting Shinra MPs, helping with terrorist attacks, and saving the world. Sidelines? Tifa was right in the fucking thick of it in FF7, from the Nibelheim incident to the finale.

Uhm.... she did fight in ACC... but... there's no more terrorists attacks going on in AC and CoT... what did you want her to do exactly?

 

[Ite]

That's my point, nothing happens in AC that affects anyone directly except Cloud, which is why it's baffling that Tifa gets so much screentime just to be a supporting character.

 

[Obsidian Fire]

she's a generic housewife now.

I got the impression from CoT and ACC, even the OG for that matter, that this is what Tifa is really fighting for. She wants to settle down with Cloud and have a normal family with her as the mother and Cloud as the father.

It's just that Shin-Ra, Jenova, and Sephiroth are in the way of that and she isn't going to sit back and let them take her dream away from her. She's going to fight for what she wants and fight well for it, but once she has her dream (having a normal family) she's not going to continue fighting for no reason because that's not what she really wants to do. When her family gets threatened though, she's the first one out there fighting for it. It's just what defines her character.

 

[DLPB]

I wanted a good, well thought out story with a FF7 Sequel film (actually I didn't want a sequel at all because FF7 is finished. Done.). Predictably I got a fanboy driven mess where everyone defies physics and logic. Where people can defy gravity and slam into buildings and where fight scenes take up most screen time. Nothing is explored, nothing is changed. You come out thinking "Well the graphics were cool." That's about as deep and meaningful as that shallow puddle of piss ever got.

Character development again, pretty much 0. If they didn't have a proper story in mind, they shouldn't have started it.

It was like Matrix Reloaded v Final Fantasy. It was fucking lousy like everything FF related these days. PLEASE

MAKE IT STOP! IT'S BURNING!

 

[Obsidian Fire]

^^This post is related to Tifa how?

 

[DLPB]

^^This post is related to Tifa how?

Errr because her character wasn't developed which comes right smack bang under "character development" and "good story".

The reason the characters in Advent Children are the way they are is because of shite, lazy writing. That is directly implied by my post. As always, IMPLIED, as opposed to being spoon fed it direct.

That's my point, nothing happens in AC that affects anyone directly except Cloud

That sums it up. This is not something limited to just Tifa. As for why she gets screen time, it is because again of fanboyism. She is the "chick" with the huge tits and nice ass. We HAVE to have her in this film don't we...

Plus, we have to cater to fandom.. like Lucas (star wars comes in handy always) did with having CP30 and R2D2 make the rounds in the prequels.

They created a film but from the outset cared more about the visuals and fanbase than creating good developed characters and story. That is why Tifa suffered.

 

[Obsidian Fire]

*Sighs*

I really hope we're not going to get into a "character development" vs. "character exploration" again.

Besides, CoT develops Tifa just like ACC develops Cloud. You don't have to have all the characters developing all at the same time. They can develop at different rates and at different times. That's how it works in real life.

Tifa wasn't exactly the motherly type in FFVII, she left Marlene to handle a bar in the slums so she could go blow up a building.

Except we don't know if Tifa was okay with that or if there simply wasn't anyone else but Marlene around to handle the bar. Tifa definitely isn't letting Marlene run 7th Heaven by herself in CoT.

 

[DLPB]

really hope we're not going to get into a "character development" vs. "character exploration" again.

She had neither in that film. And that's just an excuse anyway. For once I have to agree with Dacon.

 

[Obsidian Fire]

Decides to stop debating 'cause I know I won't change my opinion and DLPB won't change his.

To get thread back on topic:
I don't look over fan-art, but I do look over fan-fiction. Here's one of the more interesting Tifa oneshots I found:

Didn't Know, Couldn't Tell

 

[mestiz]

Her current role is so boring compared to her FF7 days.

It's less kick ass, but I don't think her role is merely housewife, it's repentence. Tifa fought in the past for what were primarily selfish reasons:

"The slogans AVALANCHE used showing how they were anti-Shinra and anti-Mako were just what I needed to hide my true motive. But the many lives lost as sacrifices in saving the planet were too much. If all that was just for my own revenge, then… the sin held a role deep in my heart."

"Denzel’s parents were among the victims when Sector Seven was destroyed.. the reason why Sector Seven was destroyed was because of AVALANCHE. That’s why I had to take responsibility and raise him (Denzel)."

I don't think she believes in the whole family thing only because it gives her the wuzzies to have one with Cloud. She believes in it because looking after Denzel is a way she's repenting for her sins (same for Cloud). Boring, less kick ass, but yeah... repentance. I think this explains Tifa's more subdued role in AC/ACC. I don't like Cloud's sourpussy shenanigans in ACC either, but he was going through the whole repentence bizz too.

 

[minimosey]

I think you're right, but I also think that's not effective coming across to people when that was shoehorned in after the movie's first release. AC did not have anything about Tifa repenting. In fact, I don't even know if ACC actually has something about Tifa repenting still, someone tell me--I've yet to hear of a change that would show it. Her role in AC came across as "housewife" because...that's what was shown.

 

[looneymoon]

Agreed with Dacon so hard. Relegating Tifa to the care-taker/motherly role is a huge injustice to the character. LOVE INTEREST OR MOTHER WHAT ELSE ARE FEMALE LEADS GOOD FOR?

Makes me think of this XD

I begrudgingly accept it though, because mothers are an important recurring theme in the series. I realize this is probably justification for shoddy writing, but whatever.

 

[mestiz]

I think you're right, but I also think that's not effective coming across to people when that was shoehorned in after the movie's first release.

I know. CoT was good insight into Tifa's mind and how the 'family' developed, but the masses didn't have access to it unless they did some extra research on the webz. A friend of mine who bought AC (not into fandom) thought at first that Denzel was their bio child.

 

[minimosey]

I guess that's my biggest pet peeve with the Compilation: entries should be able to stand on their own. A main character's arc should make sense without having to drag in outside information. That's not the case at all with AC and the novellas.

 

[Max Payne]

So yes she was the support staff and had the base of operations for AVALANCHE. But actively helping on missions? Not until the game itself it seems.

Yeah that's an assumption. If she never went on missions, Barret wouldn't have allowed her to just jump up and tag along on one of their most important ones. He clearly knew she could handle herself and was no pushover, so there's no reason to assume this at all.

Her day must be filled with thinking about how to please her man and making sure his dinner is ready when he gets home.

Don't be facetious, it's disingenious and downright childish. Not to mention an insult to your stance on this issue.

I could care less if her character does not appeal to you. But it shouldn't be for bullshit you make up. We harp on the cleriths all the time about this.

I have made nothing up, and I didn't say she no longer appeals to me, but that she is now boring.

Well one could say being the lover of Cloud is more work than being the guardian of Cloud.

Maybe so.

Right, extended babysitting of someones kid is the exact same as raising two children full time? Have you ever been around kicks Dacon?

I have 4 little sisters and I take care of them every damn day. When I used to baby sit for a few days it was nothing. Comparing babysitting to full on raising a child? Yeah no. The responsibility is MUCH greater, and it is much more difficult.

Tifa is pouting now? Remember what I said about making shit up? And I guess giving Cloud a boost for the killing strike is her reading a book in the corner?

Moping around a church and brooding isn't pouting? Marlene had to cheer her up for crying out loud. I'm not making anything up, get over it man. Fuck sake, one of the many definitions of the word is:

1. To exhibit displeasure or disappointment; sulk.

She most definitely does this at several moments in the film, and gets pretty vehement when Cloud's spews his bs. How is this anything that detracts from her character, regardless of absurd LTD arguments? EVERYONE pouts at some point in their lives.



Also, throwing Cloud in the air isn't anything to get excited about. Everyone else did that and still actively took part in the battle.

So once again, how is Tifa basically doing the same thing only without the eco terrorism/trying to save the planet, suddenly a bad thing and just RUINS FOREVER her character?

One, she ISN'T doing the same thing at all. She's adopted a few old practises again, but her role has become that much more that of a motherly/caretaking figure than ever.

In FF7 she wasn't spending the majority of her time at 7th Heaven, watching kids that weren't hers, doting on Cloud's depression, or being repeatedly put in positions where she had to be saved. Sure her time in FF7 isn't the entirety of her life, but it's the most defining bit.

She could have done anything, even joined the WRO to help train their soldiers(all of avalanche probably should have done this given how shitty they are at fighting). It would have been more interesting.

suddenly a bad thing and just RUINS FOREVER her character?

Deliberately exaggerating what I say to a silly degree that fails to dispel anything I've said? SURELY NOT VENDEL.

I didn't say she was ruined forever you pud, but that she's become boring and not as interesting to me. Arguably the strongest woman on the planet has become a generic housewife who spends her time doting on the same idiot and taking care of other people's kids. I don't find that very interesting. I don't LIKE what she's become as much as her old role, but I can reasonably see how she could have arrived there.

Damn man, this is the woman who had enough balls to confront and attack the strongest man on the planet after he killed damn near everyone in her village, WITH HIS OWN WEAPON. I guess I have to deal with the fact that she will never be as badass as I want her to be.

 

[Max Payne]

I know. CoT was good insight into Tifa's mind and how the 'family' developed, but the masses didn't have access to it unless they did some extra research on the webz. A friend of mine who bought AC (not into fandom) thought at first that Denzel was their bio child.

People like that have ACC now though.

It's less kick ass, but I don't think her role is merely housewife, it's repentence. Tifa fought in the past for what were primarily selfish reasons:

Avalanche's single, most important goal was to save the planet. That's pretty selfless bro.

I don't think she believes in the whole family thing only because it gives her the wuzzies to have one with Cloud. She believes in it because looking after Denzel is a way she's repenting for her sins (same for Cloud). Boring, less kick ass, but yeah... repentance. I think this explains Tifa's more subdued role in AC/ACC. I don't like Cloud's sourpussy shenanigans in ACC either, but he was going through the whole repentence bizz too.

If her goal was just to repent for her "sins" then she should be something that benefits more than one child. You can't ever make up for lives lost, especially just by taking care of one child. But you can do everything in your power to ensure that those things never happen again.

Also, Cloud was just going through the stages of Death, and letting his guilt get to him

 

[Tifabelle]

Avalanche's single, most important goal was to save the planet. That's pretty selfless bro.

That was AVALANCHE's reason, which she was apart of. So by extension it was her reason, but it was covering her REAL reason which was revenge. I think Barret would admit the same thing, don't you?

As far as Tifa's role in the missions prior to the start of the game, I think it was limited. Cloud was surprised when Tifa wanted to join the mission. Cloud had been with them for a month or two, that would indicate that she likely didn't participate in missions for at least a month.

So what was she doing during that time? Running the bar, and probably caring for Marlene. To say that her role during that time was merely babysitting is probably underestimating. Let's face it - Barret has the fatherly capabilities of a brick. Tifa likely took on the motherly role for Marlene even with Barret around. That's speculation of course.

The only thing Tifa would be doing besides what she currently is would be to have some kind of role in WRO. But most of the others weren't involved either (with the exception of Yuffie & Cid). I don't have a problem with what Tifa is doing, except that they've made her a little too consumed with Cloud.

As for her role in AC/C, I don't have a problem with it. She's a main character that supports Cloud. Really, AC/C is about Cloud. Like DoC was about Vincent. Or CC was about Zack. AC/C is kind of like Case of Cloud, if you will.

 

[Obsidian Fire]

Avalanche's single, most important goal was to save the planet. That's pretty selfless bro.

Yeah, Avalanche wants to save the planet, but that's because they have to do that in order to get what they want. Cloud even admits that they're saving the planet for themselves and not for the future of the planet. It sets up Avalanche as a group of people that although they are saving the planet, they aren't doing it for the most noble of causes; they're doing it because it befits them and doesn't harm anyone else.

 

[minimosey]

This is really just making me think that maybe they should explore Tifa following in Zangan's footsteps and training students for self-defense. Not that she'd travel the world like he did (that's just out of place for Tifa--I don't see her traveling away from home without a clear set goal that she can accomplish and then return), but to have pre-teens/teens around Edge come around Seventh Heaven for lessons on how to protect themselves in a crisis. (Which would include emphasizing that they should escape if they need to and how to escape intelligently instead of panicking, because god knows they don't need people biting off more than they can chew.)

Basically it's not that I think what Tifa is doing is wrong for her, just that maybe she could branch out somehow.

 

[Max Payne]

That was AVALANCHE's reason, which she was apart of. So by extension it was her reason, but it was covering her REAL reason which was revenge. I think Barret would admit the same thing, don't you?

It doesn't matter. Their actions had consequences, but if they didn't take those steps MANY more people would have died. There's always a price to pay for a good cause. Whether or not you have secondary motives, or ulterior motives underlying that cause. Feeling guilt over that and wanting to punish yourself for it is pointless. Especially taking care of a kid solely out of obligation because you feel guilty.

Pretty much every action we take has a selfish reason underlying our altruism. That's human nature, and nothing you should be apologetic for, especially when the effects of events are not solely you fault.

As far as Tifa's role in the missions prior to the start of the game, I think it was limited. Cloud was surprised when Tifa wanted to join the mission. Cloud had been with them for a month or two, that would indicate that she likely didn't participate in missions for at least a month.

Wait, how do we know he was with them for a month or two? Either way it does not matter. There's plenty of room in the timeline for her to be active, and just because she wasn't on missions with Cloud, doesn't mean she wasn't working on something somewhere else.

Or you can just assume she was stuck at the bar playing house with Marlene for whatever reason suits you.

So what was she doing during that time? Running the bar, and probably caring for Marlene. To say that her role during that time was merely babysitting is probably underestimating. Let's face it - Barret has the fatherly capabilities of a brick. Tifa likely took on the motherly role for Marlene even with Barret around. That's speculation of course.

Obviously it is speculation and assumption, because mommy had no problem leaving a severely underage kid running a bar in one of the worst slums in Midgar(YOU GET ATTACKED BY FUCKING HOUSES FFS).

It's ridiculous to assume that Barret would have no problem with someone who hadn't taken any prior action in previous missions, suddenly jumping up and running in one of their more important operations.

FFS he had her going undercover in one of the seediest places in the sectors. Obviously she has enough experience and familiarity with the job to do what he needs her to do. He knows she can handle herself.

Also, wow @the dig at Barret. He's a good father. He makes sure his daughter is taken care of, he makes sure she has a home, is well fed, plays with her and makes her happy. That's what being a good father is all about. She adores him, and he adores her.

The only thing Tifa would be doing besides what she currently is would be to have some kind of role in WRO. But most of the others weren't involved either (with the exception of Yuffie & Cid). I don't have a problem with what Tifa is doing, except that they've made her a little too consumed with Cloud.

There's plenty she could be doing besides that if you just open your imagination.

As for her role in AC/C, I don't have a problem with it. She's a main character that supports Cloud. Really, AC/C is about Cloud. Like DoC was about Vincent. Or CC was about Zack. AC/C is kind of like Case of Cloud, if you will.

Good for you, but I see it as a severe discredit to her character, which is what all of you were disputing.

 

[ForceStealer]

As for the WRO, I don't think they straight-up joined (save Cid) but they all certainly helped in DC. And Tifa was clearly away from home fighting in the ruins of Midgar then.

 

[Max Payne]

This is really just making me think that maybe they should explore Tifa following in Zangan's footsteps and training students for self-defense. Not that she'd travel the world like he did (that's just out of place for Tifa--I don't see her traveling away from home without a clear set goal that she can accomplish and then return), but to have pre-teens/teens around Edge come around Seventh Heaven for lessons on how to protect themselves in a crisis. (Which would include emphasizing that they should escape if they need to and how to escape intelligently instead of panicking, because god knows they don't need people biting off more than they can chew.)

Basically it's not that I think what Tifa is doing is wrong for her, just that maybe she could branch out somehow.

That's the kind of stuff I'm talking about. She doesn't have to be solely devoted to one role. All her strength and she pretty much did nothing with it for 2 years.