Locked Heart // Tifa Lockhart

[Alessa Gillespie]

No Force, avalanche is a bunch of normal people with no special abilities that managed to beat an assload of monsters and machines by pure luck.

Oh, and they never fought any of those battles because battles ain't canon

the truth comes out

soldier was just given placebos.

it is all a conspiracy

also we never landed on the moon and 9/11 was caused by the gubberment!

 

[Max Payne]

None of the monsters exist either.

Red was just talking out of his ass and Hojo was just making coffee in those pods, Sephiroth and Zack are just on meth

 

[DLPB]

It's a good thing you can only feasibly take the soul out of the game's script, DLPB, because I feel like the battles would be really freaking boring in your version of that game.

Who mentioned me taking them all out of the GAME. I said a distinction is to be made between a literal viewing of a battle and what actually happens as part of the STORY. There is nothing unreasonable or stupid about that.

This is a game. OBVIOUSLY it has to have game components, but Rufus did not literally shoot Cloud in the chest 4 times with a SHOT GUN. and Cloud did not literally STAB and SLASH Rufus. They "had a fight" and Rufus "got bloody" that was it. Slashing people KILLS THEM. BEING SHOT WITH A SHOT GUN, KILLS PEOPLE, EVEN IN THE FICTIONAL WORLD OF FF7.


Straw men don't work

 

[ForceStealer]

While the effects of turn-based combat aren't necessarily "canon." To presume that they instead had completely normal, unspectacular combat is absolutely absurd.

 

[Max Payne]

This is a game. OBVIOUSLY it has to have game components, but Rufus did not literally shoot Cloud in the chest 4 times with a SHOT GUN. and Cloud did not literally STAB and SLASH Rufus. They "had a fight" and Rufus "got bloody" that was it. Slashing people KILLS THEM. BEING SHOT WITH A SHOT GUN, KILLS PEOPLE, EVEN IN THE FICTIONAL WORLD OF FF7.

This is the arguement you bring to the table? This comepletely obvious statement that in no one dispells what I said?

NO ONE said everything in battle happens as it does during combat, but there's no reason to assume that NONE of it does.

These people HAD to be superhuman to do what they did. How else do you take down a giant monster spawned from inside a planet? There ARE monsters in their world, they are reference to in the story as is the ridiculous might of SOLDIER.

You can only ASSUME what monsters are real and which are not.

 

[Alessa Gillespie]

This is a game. OBVIOUSLY it has to have game components, but Rufus did not literally shoot Cloud in the chest 4 times with a SHOT GUN. and Cloud did not literally STAB and SLASH Rufus. They "had a fight" and Rufus "got bloody" that was it. Slashing people KILLS THEM. BEING SHOT WITH A SHOT GUN, KILLS PEOPLE, EVEN IN THE FICTIONAL WORLD OF FF7.

Except Tifa, evidently, since she was still alive after being slashed. And Cloud, who survives being stabbed. And Rufus, who survives falling from a god-knows-how-many story high building. And Cloud falling over 50 ft. And Vincent getting shot point-blank by Hojo. And Tseng getting stabbed by Sephiroth.

Hell, the only one who doesn't live after being stabbed by Sephiroth is Aerith. She is, quite possibly, the only person that someone could argue as having even vaguely 'normal human' characteristics.

 

[DLPB]

I think the cutscenes in FF7 bare that out mostly, that they did have run of the mill fight scenes. If you think about it any other way, then you are in the realms of Wizard of Oz, where Cloud and his 60 foot sword slash at the head of Rufus but he loses a bit of energy.

Clearly, Aerith dying in 1 stab and Tifa being slashed at ONCE and almost dying, or being comatose from falling off a bridge, or Zack being shot dead, or Bugenhagen dying of old age, or a number of others, sum up that this fictional world is comparable to OUR REAL WORLD. And that's important, because if you create a fictional world and GO TOO FAR, suspension of disbelief FAILS and the FICTION WILL FAIL.

Seriously guys this is story making 101. I now understand why Dacon doesn't see a problem with Rufus being hit by a fireball and surviving, it's because for him, FF7 has already fallen apart with bizarre logic.

We have to create boundaries and the writing team DID THAT with the original game (MOSTLY). They threw it out of the window with AC and the rest.

 

[LunarSkye]

 

[Alessa Gillespie]

Clearly, Aerith dying in 1 stab and Tifa being slashed at ONCE and almost dying, or being comatose from falling off a bridge, sum up that this fictional world is comparable to OUR REAL WORLD. And that's important, because if you create a fictional world and GO TOO FAR, suspension of disbelief FAILS and the FICTION WILL FAIL.

well shit, Vincent done be died then. getting shot at point-blank range tends to kill people after all.

 

[Shademp]

You guys are arguing over nothing, other than misunderstandings of what the other side means when they try to interpret the difference between canon narrative and gameplay elements.

We all know there is a difference between gameplay and story, but none of us knows exactly how a "movie" of say the fight against Bizarro Sephiroth would be presented. Not in detail.

Let us not also forget that Square can also be lazy with conveying a proper narrative. Like when Tifa is slashed by Sephiroth in the Nibel Reactor; the animation would suggest she was slashed in two, but she isn't. That part is just laziness; not true presentation that should be taken seriously.

 

[ForceStealer]

I think the cutscenes in FF7 bare that out mostly, that they did have run of the mill fight scenes.

So I echo Dacon's question, how the HELL did the team of 8, ordinary fighters kill Ultima WEAPON - a monster of absolute destruction? Or deter the even larger Diamond Weapon from advancing further? How?

doesn't see a problem with Rufus being hit by a fireball and surviving

So now magic doesn't exist either? What the hell did they DO with magic if not shoot fireballs at people?


Sephiroth flies ALL the damn time in FF7, and so does Cloud when under Sephiroth's control. You summon MYSTICAL CREATURES FROM THE GREAT BEYOND TO STEP ON PEOPLE THAT LIVE. And you can't say they aren't canon, because summoned creatures unequivocally are. And need we reiterate Cloud's TREMENDOUS FALL that he survived.

In fact, not only did he survive it, he was COMPLETELY unharmed. ANd to cite a different game, FFVI has a protracted battle while FALLING DOWN A WATERFALL.


Furthermore, to suggest Dacon is fanboy that irrationally is defending AC is laughable, because Dacon has ALWAYS thought AC was shit. You're just picking a really stupid thing to cite as a reason.


Lastly, you've also hideously derailed the thread. At least the argument about Tifa was OT.

 

[Max Payne]

I think the cutscenes in FF7 bare that out mostly, that they did have run of the mill fight scenes. If you think about it any other way, then you are in the realms of Wizard of Oz, where Cloud and his 60 foot sword slash at the head of Rufus but he loses a bit of energy.

How the fuck did Avalanche stave off Diamond Weapon, and Ultima Weapon with fucking run of mill abilities like normal people? That's fucking retarded. Oh, and these events DO happen and are referenced within the story.

Clearly, Aerith dying in 1 stab and Tifa being slashed at ONCE and almost dying, or being comatose from falling off a bridge, sum up that this fictional world is comparable to OUR REAL WORLD. And that's important, because if you create a fictional world and GO TOO FAR, suspension of disbelief FAILS and the FICTION WILL FAIL.

Tifa was a child, Aerith is weaker than all of them.


FF7 throws our fucking logic out of the window and plays by it's own rules. In FF7 one man is powerful enough to have worldwide recognition for his effect on the battlefield for fuck's sake. SOLDIER is referred to being superhuman several times.

Barret and Cloud fight off a giant robot fucking Scorpion and destroy it.

Cloud survives a fall that should have killed him(so does rufus), he survived being stabbed when it should have killed him.

Cloud and co. destroy a fucking overpowered alien from fucking space that road a meteor to the planet.

Sephiroth survives being stabbed by a massive sword that pierces his fucking abdomen and his chest, then falls into the lifestream and regenerates his entire fucking body in a goddamn cave underground without medical attention.

Hojo SHOOTS Vincent point blank, then turns him into an immortal shape shifting monster.

Barret survives having his fucking arm shot off and falling down a fucking cliff, then gets a fucking gun implanted into his arm that apparently NEVER needs to reload and has no kind of construction resembling an actual gun. It's IMPOSSIBLE by any means.

None of this shit is plausible in the real world and completely defies nature. But you pic and choose what is fucking acceptable and expect us to let you dictate what is and isn't.

 

[DLPB]

Again it comes down to

1. Suspension of disbelief

2. What is permitted in this fictional world. What laws and elements are given to you as reasoning. What examples are there of this?

3. Within reason.

The game writers made the game pretty damn easy to understand and interpret when and where you should apply an ounce of common sense. They certainly did not mean to have Rufus shooting shot gun shells into Cloud being taken literally. That's for damn sure. And dacon has argued with me on that before too.

The end.

 

[Max Payne]

You guys are arguing over nothing, other than misunderstandings of what the other side means when they try to interpret the difference between canon narrative and gameplay elements.

We all know there is a difference between gameplay and story, but none of us knows exactly how a "movie" of say the fight against Bizarro Sephiroth would be presented. Not in detail.

Let us not also forget that Square can also be lazy with conveying a proper narrative. Like when Tifa is slashed by Sephiroth in the Nibel Reactor; the animation would suggest she was slashed in two, but she isn't. That part is just laziness; not true presentation that should be taken seriously.

AC gives us a good idea of how Avalanche fights, that's more than enough to go on, whether you accept it or not, THIS IS CANON AND THE WAY THINGS ARE. These people made the game, they know what is possible in their world and what isn't. Who is DLPB to dictate that? Whether or not you life it is opinion.

By all rights, Tifa SHOULD have been cut in half.

 

[DLPB]

THIS IS CANON AND THE WAY THINGS ARE.

None of this has sank in has it? Oh well, back to hell house and cloud being pumped with shot gun shells I guess

 

[Max Payne]

Again it comes down to

1. Suspension of disbelief

2. What is permitted in this fictional world. What laws and elements are given to you as reasoning. What examples are there of this?

3. Within reason.

FF7 has several events that defy real world logic and push the limits of fantasy. We SEE their characters achieving some real feats, but you completely discount them because hurr durr battle.

Just because we know that they don't take as much damage as they do in combat, doesn't mean that the characters CAN'T do any of the things they do in battle. How else could they have won against such odds? You've completely failed to address this and bullheadedly stumble forward as arrogant as ever.

The game writers made the game pretty damn easy to understand and interpret when and where you should apply an ounce of common sense.

The game's writers say that Cloud and co. can achieve crazy feats in AC/C and the compilation, but those don't matter because it's not FF7 but it's sequels?

That's bullshit you fucking tard.

 

[Max Payne]

None of this has sank in has it? Oh well, back to hell house and cloud being pumped with shot gun shells I guess

There you go again completely ignoring what has been said because hurr durr DLPB right and everybody else wrong and crazy for saying I'm not right

 

[Shademp]

You guys are agreeing with each other and you can't even see it.

When DLPB says, "run of the mill fights", I am convinced he does not exclude the superhuman elements, just the ridiculously silly elements. For example, in a movie we would never see Cloud using the Enemy Skill "Chocobuckle", wherein he summons a fat Chocobo to bounce on Sephiroth's head, an attack which becomes stronger the more times you've escaped from battle.

 

[Max Payne]

You guys are agreeing with each other and you can't even see it.

We aren't even remotely.

When DLPB says, "run of the mill fights", I am convinced he does not exclude the superhuman elements, just the ridiculously silly elements. For example, in a movie we would never see Cloud using the Enemy Skill "Chocobuckle", wherein he summons a fat Chocobo to bounce on Sephiroth's head, an attack which becomes stronger the more times you've escaped from battle.

We all know not EVERYTHING in battle happens or can happen, but he's saying the stuff with see in AC/C can't even happen and that Tifa and co. aren't superhuman when they clearly are. That's what he means by "run of the mill".

 

[DLPB]

Your logic is such that anything I say from this point on is a waste of time. You have made your position clear, in your version of FF7 anything can happen and pretty much everything is literally true and canon.

In my world, I understand what fiction is and what a good writer does. What more is there to say on this? We have reached the end yet again with no one changing their position on it.

I prefer the correct view on this. That fiction is workable. Not that Cloud can fly into buildings because he can, or that cloud can get pumped full of shot gun shells because he can, or that anything can happen because "I saw it on AC". That is blatantly at odds with the cutscenes of FF7 where very often they still work with a stretch of the imaganation and other times, with no stretch needed at all.

See, when cloud comes through that church, the chances are he would be seriously injured but we apply a logic to it:

1. He is supposed to be very strong.
2. We later find out he is not a normal human.
3. The roof and flower bed broke his fall.
4. The writers did not have him totally uninjured, he was KNOCKED OUT.

You see, that's called GOOD fiction. It isn't 100% plausible, but it isn't something which is LAUGHABLE.

Fast forward to AC and Cloud IS SLAMMED INTO A BUILDING AT 100 MPH AND IS TOTALLY UNINJURED WITH NO REASON GIVEN.

THIS IS BAD FICTION.

Do you REALLY not understand this?

 

[Tetsujin]

You have made your position clear, in your version of FF7 anything can happen and pretty much everything is literally true and canon.

Are you dense? This isn't what was said at all, pay fucking attention.

 

[Alessa Gillespie]

guys

this has fuckall to do with tifa

if dlpb wants to bitch about ac raping his childhood, can we please make a thread of that? :\

 

[DLPB]

See, when cloud comes through that church, the chances are he would be seriously injured but we apply a logic to it:

1. He is supposed to be very strong.
2. We later find out he is not a normal human.
3. The roof and flower bed broke his fall.
4. The writers did not have him totally uninjured, he was KNOCKED OUT.

You see, that's called GOOD fiction. It isn't 100% plausible, but it isn't something which is LAUGHABLE.

Fast forward to AC and Cloud IS SLAMMED INTO A BUILDING AT 100 MPH AND IS TOTALLY UNINJURED WITH NO REASON GIVEN.

THIS IS BAD FICTION.

Do you REALLY not understand this?

 

[Max Payne]

Your logic is such that anything I say from this point on is a waste of time. You have made your position clear, in your version of FF7 anything can happen and pretty much everything is literally true and canon.

What did you call this? Oh yea, ad hominem. You're not putting an arguement forwad here except HERP DERP YOU BE WRONG.

In my world, I understand what fiction is and what a good writer does. What more is there to say on this? We have reached the end yet again with no one changing their position on it.

Oh so your standard is the only one that's any good or acceptable?

I prefer the correct view on this. That fiction is workable. Not that Cloud can fly into buildings because he can, or that cloud can get pumped full of shot gun shells because he can, or that anything can happen because "I saw it on AC". That is blatantly at odds with the cutscenes of FF7 where very often they still work with a stretch of the imaganation and other times, with no stretch needed at all.

No one made those arguements. We said character A can do this because of X. NOT HURR DURR THEY CAN DO THIS CUZ THEY CAN you fucking idiot.

See, when cloud comes through that church, the chances are he would be seriously injured but we apply a logic to it:

1. He is supposed to be very strong.
2. We later find out he is not a normal human.
3. The roof and flower bed broke his fall.
4. The writers did not have him totally uninjured, he was KNOCKED OUT.

You see, that's called GOOD fiction. It isn't 100% plausible, but it isn't something which is LAUGHABLE.

Do you REALLY not understand this?

Oh my god you just contradicted yourself again and you don't even acknowledge it. You say their world is comparable to the real one then say something that's not realistic is acceptable. A person falling a retardedly long distance then slamming into the roof of a building hard enough to go clean through it is acceptable, but a guy jumping really high is completely unacceptable? That's retarded.

Characters defy logic and gravity in FF7 repeatedly but you discount it because it was either in battle or it doesn't support your position when:

The same writers say these characters can do these things.

At several points in the game characters survive or doing things that are just not possible unless they are capable of superhuman feats like the ones they perform in battle.

 

[Max Payne]

Keep saying that church shit when, in a world with gravity and rules comparable to ours, no matter how strong you are you'd be a fucking bloody mess when you hit the ground.

Apparently it's good fiction for:

Tifa falling off a bridge that's not even that high up almost killing her.

Cloud surviving a fall that should kill any human being.