Love Triangle Spoiler Thread

[Reference]

@ Reference: You can find it under Tifa's mini summary in the DoC profile. It states that Tifa and Cloud have revealed their mutual feelings for each other, and two years later, they're living together.

Ooooh ok. Thanks

 

[OneWingedDemon]

Why would DoC need to have Cloud/Tifa smooching exactly? Their relationship has been established. AC begins with that premise, that Cloud and Tifa are already together. They don't need a sex scene or a conference to constantly hammer down a point that's already made. It shows two people in a relationship and hwo Cloud's fear of failure and guilt affects his family.

The "will they get together?" and "are they or are they not?" has been dealt with before we get to DoC. I mean, in addition to this game being about Vincent and the rest being there only as cameos.

It states that Tifa and Cloud have revealed their mutual feelings for each other, and two years later, they're living together.

Exactly. So why would they need to show Cloud and Tifa holding hands/kissing/or whatever else counts as romantic for the Clerii (hand reaching? back-to-backness?) when it's an established fact within that universe? They already tell you so, and you -- the audience -- look at DoC with that assumption already made. At least, you're supposed to accordign to SE.

 

[holdthesun]

The story of FFVII does not end with each disk and begin anew. Neither does it stop in the game and start once more with AC. It's a continuous narrative.
Therefore, the original game does not go out the window, because it is the foundation of the rest of the Compilation.

It's important, but you have to understand what all those experiences are worth at this point. It is essentially the past, and these are memories. You can't bring something like the promise Cloud made to Tifa, or that she was his first love and use that as irrefutable evidence that he still loves her in a romantic sense and they will always be together as a couple. It just doesn't work that way. Besides FF7 allowed the player to chose who Cloud would be more affectionate to, so any evidence you pull out of it that would refer to Cloud's feeling for Tifa, is anything but certain.

Explain.

Aerith gets into the picture and we see the whole family gradually being torn apart. Geostigma comes later.

Why is Last Order irrelevant?
As I said, please stop looking at the story in fragments. Cloud and Tifa either are in a realtionship or they are not.
There's no 'Well, it's Cloti for the first disk, then Cloud/Yuffie the second and Cloud/Seph the third.'

As a matter of fact it's a pretty justifiable way of looking at it. At one point I had one girlfriend, at another I had a different girlfriend. And, as a personal example, I did make all sorts of silly promises to one of my girlfriends when I was 12, and I truly loved her at that age, you really think I feel that same way now? thing's have changed and lots of stuff happened, I don't even know where she is right now, but I moved on a long time ago because I have fallen in love since then. That's why all the stuff that happened in LO and FF7 doesn't really matter as much as the more current stuff right now.

So, you're saying it's inconclusive?
You run into the same problem Drake did. You would still need to show that it is inconclusive.

I can, if you can tell me what is it that makes you believe it IS conclusive?

 

[A]

Your welcome Reference.

And I don't understand that too. Why do people expect Cloti action in DoC when it's not even about them? They play cameo roles, that's all. And we already have ACC/AC/Ultimanias/novellas to prove it to us.

As a matter of fact it's a pretty justifiable way of looking at it. At one point I had one girlfriend, at another I had a different girlfriend. And, as a personal example, I did make all sorts of silly promises to one of my girlfriends when I was 12, and I truly loved her at that age, you really think I feel that same way now? thing's have changed and lots of stuff happened, I don't even know where she is right now, but I moved on a long time ago because I have fallen in love since then. That's why all the stuff that happened in LO and FF7 doesn't really matter as much as the more current stuff right now.

You do realize that Last Order did not take place when they were twelve? Also, if you can't remember/did not know, right after Cloud sees Tifa years later the Jenova cells cause him to form a new Cloud - the ideal man he wants to be... and after seeing Tifa. The Lifestream reveals to us that his one desire is to be Tifa's hero, thus requesting her not to tell anyone, as it's a secret - even though she's the one that's part of the secret. In the Highwind, they reveal their mutual feelings for each other. Mutual feelings of love. In Case of Tifa, Cloud states that they'll be together. Nomura mentions Tifa as a koibito. I can keep going on with this.

 

[Channy]

@ Reference: You can find it under Tifa's mini summary in the DoC profile. It states that Tifa and Cloud have revealed their mutual feelings for each other, and two years later, they're living together.

@ Channy: I'm not using the DoC game, I'm just using a quote off the booklet.

wat? Where is this? I'm looking at the Game booklet and it stats her as a childhood friend. I'm looking at my Bradygames guidebook and there's nothing about mutual feelings under the Highwind. I call bullshits. =/

 

[Ryushikaze]

A, I think, means the 10th Ani Ulti.

Hold, go to the front page. Read the Ultimania translations and the Crisis Core keyword translations.

Also, the clerith koibito argument is no only utterly laughable, but they've also gone and applied a double standard to the word now that Aerith calls Cloud one.

 

[A]

Oh, my bad Channy.

 

[Frostwave]

Cloud and Tifa

Cloud and Tifa are childhood friends, both born in Nibelheim. When Cloud leaves the village, he calls Tifa out to the water tower and promises that he will become a SOLDIER. At the same time, he is also made by Tifa to promise that he will come to rescue her if she is ever in trouble.

Following this, the pair experience many hardships, such as the Nibelheim incident which also appears in CC, and the Jenova War in FFVII, and through these the distance between them shortens. And in AC they live together, with Barret’s daughter Marlene and a boy named Denzel. Though there was also a period later where Cloud lived away from them after having contracted Geostigma, they finally reach a commune with each over and return to living together once again. In DC, they rush together to Vincent’s aid, in his battle against Deep Ground SOLDIER.

This is it, right?

 

[Channy]

Oh. Okay I see. I got confused when my guidebook is going in the complete opposite direction and calls her a "steadying force she always was -- or at least tried to be.... made her such a great friend."

 

[Reference]

Eh. Someone mentioned it, I haven't heard of it, and I was just curious. And now I know.

The more you know.

 

[Fairheartstrife]

It's important, but you have to understand what all those experiences are worth at this point. It is essentially the past, and these are memories. You can't bring something like the promise Cloud made to Tifa, or that she was his first love and use that as irrefutable evidence that he still loves her in a romantic sense and they will always be together as a couple. It just doesn't work that way. Besides FF7 allowed the player to chose who Cloud would be more affectionate to, so any evidence you pull out of it that would refer to Cloud's feeling for Tifa, is anything but certain.

You can bring up that promise because it's right there through the entire compilation--including DoC. "Sorry I'm late", that's a very specific message between the two. And unlike the girlfriend you had at 12 you're probably not living with her and raising a family together, now are you? Using that as an example just kind of baffles. This isn't a couple that separated due to lack of love. this is a couple that has endured from age 8 until now. As a couple. And yeah, it's romantic--even after Aerith steps in.

Proof of that is in your own statement. As a player we can chose Cloud's attitude/actions towards the females only to a point. He can call Aerith the slum drunk or ignore Tifa and hand Marlene a flower... Hell, he can go on the Gold Saucer date with Barret...wait. I found the Canon couple! Clarret for the win!!! Ok, no, seriously. At a certain point--and even during the options of the game--Cloud reveals his TRUE self. The one we can't control anymore. (funny how they did that, huh?) Once he finds himself...well, it's all Tifa.

 

[A]

You can bring up that promise because it's right there through the entire compilation--including DoC. "Sorry I'm late", that's a very specific message between the two. And unlike the girlfriend you had at 12 you're probably not living with her and raising a family together, now are you? Using that as an example just kind of baffles. This isn't a couple that separated due to lack of love. this is a couple that has endured from age 8 until now. As a couple. And yeah, it's romantic--even after Aerith steps in.

Let us not forget that SE also managed to bring the promise in the end of FFVII, despite the claim of many... In the end, he saves her before she falls into the Lifestream.

 

[holdthesun]

well, ok, first this thread is a bit crazy and should have a "enter at your own risk" tag on in so, I had to ignore a lot of your responses, sry. buttaaaa, I did say I'm not that LTD literate, so yeah, I did read a lot of their CLERITH stuff and I thought it was fairly articulate at the time (I only watched AC by then). So, if you'd excuse my ignorance on the matter, I'd like to know how their kiobito arguement was refuted, or plainly wrong (as you make it seem)?

 

[A]

well, ok, first this thread is a bit crazy and should have a "enter at your own risk" tag on in so, I had to ignore a lot of your responses, sry. buttaaaa, I did say I'm not that LTD literate, so yeah, I did read a lot of their CLERITH stuff and I thought it was fairly articulate at the time (I only watched AC by then). So, if you'd excuse my ignorance on the matter, I'd like to know how their kiobito arguement was refuted, or plainly wrong (as you make it seem)?

No worries ~

The koibito sentence is fairly simple. It starts out with describing Tifa's standpoints - we can understand this from the word tachiba, which literally means: standpoint/position/role. And it describes her position as:

1. A mother.
2. An ally at battle.
3. A girlfriend.

The word koibito in that sentence is to describe her role. If she is a lover, we can conclude that it's Cloud - > unless, SE has some secret AerTi loving hidden in it.

The English translation isn't as good, unfortunately.

And isn't the highwind scene the one where Tifa says words are not the only thing that tell you how you feel - or smth? I know the scene, but how does that prove Cloud still has feelings for Tifa when the content of that scene can change depending on the player's preference. Or ok, if you go that way, for the hell of it, even on the high affection level for Tifa, what Cloud said seemed so subtle and indirect that it can easily become subjective.

Actually, the original scene was for Cloud and Tifa to be getting out of a Chocobo farm and adjusting their clothes rashly - meaning that SE had intended for them to make some loving. Though, they said they had to tone it down. And toning it down does not mean completely erasing the idea, so we can conclude from there that they did something.

 

[Ryushikaze]

Well, as for the Highwind scene, A: It's not controlled by the date parameters, but a separate value related to Tifa's use in battle. B: In reminiscence and all other 'official' walkthroughs, Tifa is included at all available times in the party, including Memorial Album. C: In the 20th Ani Ulti Story, the high version of the highwind scene only is displayed, and is listed as a vital scene to the story, along with the lifestream sequence. Memorial album also contained high highwind.

As for their koibito argument, well, there's a lot to say about it. Koibito not having a meaning when written in Kanji, Koi-bito, Koibito meaning one who loves, it referring to her personality not her role in the world, where do I begin?
Oh, and how could I forget the 'Koibito means a nice person because sweetheart can mean nice person' bit.

Oh, actually...

 

[A]

Tifa's personality is of one of a girlfriend's/lover, of course. She treats everyone as if they were her lover.

 

[Fairheartstrife]

Tifa's personality is of one of a girlfriend's/lover, of course. She treats everyone as if they were her lover.

And why not? She's hawt. Spread the love, girl!

 

[Frostwave]

Well, as for the Highwind scene, A: It's not controlled by the date parameters, but a separate value related to Tifa's use in battle.

Really? Wow, I didn't know that.

 

[OneWingedDemon]

It is essentially the past, and these are memories. You can't bring something like the promise Cloud made to Tifa, or that she was his first love and use that as irrefutable evidence that he still loves her in a romantic sense and they will always be together as a couple.

You misunderstand. I am in no way saying that simply because Cloud liked a girl back in the day, it necessarily means he still does and wants to sex her up.

What I did say is that the promise by the well is a recurring theme that has surfaced again and again. The script always has Cloud referrign back to it at several points, not only throughout the game, but the rest fo the Compilation as well.
In addition to this, there is official material (one of the others will have to tell you which book it is, I forget) that says the promise was forever etched in Cloud's heart.
His promise to Tifa and its importance continues well into adulthood and it is something Cloud desires to be - her hero (despite thinking he can't/is not worthy).

If SE had left it as only a flashback, you would likely have a case. But the constant references to it & saying that the promise is forever in his heart is indication that for Cloud, his feelings for Tifa aren't in the past.
There is no point in focusing on Tifa thinking he was cute and Cloud saying he's happy to know of her feelings for him, if SE's intention is to show us that Cloud and Tifa are no more.

FF7 allowed the player to chose who Cloud would be more affectionate to

There is nothign optional about Cloud saying "only Tifa's opinion & attitude matters" or singling her out only and apologizing to her especially.
There is nothing optional about the reveal in the Lifestream sequence, nothign optional about saying that he was happy to know of Tifa's feelings, nothing optional about sleeping with her in ALL versions, nothign optional about the intimate physical contact between them (which he does with no other character).

What is non-optional where Aeris is concerned?

 

[holdthesun]

@A
yeah, I heard about that dropped scene. Well, as I said, I do believe CLOTI makes sense, but unlike you guys I'm not satified with the current amount of evidence there is, to truly be convinced about the canon of the pairing. Yes, I need them to show it, otherwise it is, essentially, all up in the air. A lot of things didn't yet happen and a lot of things can still happen (maybe they'll dispose of Tifa in the same way they did Aerith, and you can be sure SE will go out of business the next day ), so I'll just wait for the arrival of any new evidence from the actual games or novels. We don't really know what happened between them from ACC - DoC and beyond, sure, they're still good friends if nothing else, that we can tell, but we can't assert anything else until there's a new novel or game that shows the state of their relationship at that time.

I'll say this though, Spiky's gotta be one lost, confused son of a bitch to act the way he does in relation to Tifa. She's too good for him... AMEN

 

[OneWingedDemon]

By your logic, Rinoa and Squall might have split up. Hey, we don't know, anything could have happened after the ending, right? We're not shown.

According to you, Cloud could very well be sexing up seph on the side on those long delivery trips. We don't know. We aren't shown.

That's ridiculous.
Stories don't work that way. Nothing does.

 

[A]

I'll say this though, Spiky's gotta be one lost, confused son of a bitch to act the way he does in relation to Tifa. She's too good for him... AMEN

True fact! Tifa's too good for him.

 

[Ryushikaze]

Speaking of new evidence from the novels, an excerpt from CoT revised.

"
(Cloud) "Because this time it will be together with you, Tifa."

(Tifa) "Haven't I always been with you?"

(Cloud) "It's kind of different in some ways."

Cloud replied, smiling again."

Cloud's new life is a new life with Tifa. Taken together with everything else, really, what else are we supposed to conclude?

Even if he had a romantic interest in Aerith when she was alive, he doesn't appear interested in pursuing it, instead it's all about Tifa.

 

[A]

I wonder why they would edit that in the first place.

"Because this time it will be TOGETHER WITH YOU, TIFA."

I dunno, that just screams out that Cloud intends to stay with Tifa. Or maybe I'm just being a delusional Cloti.

At least, a lot more comes to show in Cloud's side than either Aerith or Tifa stating something.

 

[OneWingedDemon]

I wonder why they would edit that in the first place.

To show us how in the past Cloud and Tifa are, of course.

And no, there's no delusion at play when Cloud says I WILL SUCCEED AND BE HAPPY THIS TIME BECAUSE I WILL BE WITH YOU, TIFA.

I mean, really, where's the Cleris equivalent here? Why hold Cloti to different standards?