SPOILERS LTD Remake — It's like New Coke except ... no, it's exactly like New Coke

[KindOfBlue]

I think it's not so much that they push one ship, it's just that Tifa and Cloud are the romantic pair, that's the story, so whatever they do reflects that.
The wording of saying they're "pushing a ship" makes it seem like they're outsiders trying to push a narrative on some external thing.
That's not what's happening, there is simply a story, in that story Cloud and Tifa are the romantic pair, and because of that the story has stuff indicating that.
Writers don't ship, readers do. Not all writers impose their views of the story on the reader, but they still determine the story, shipping I think is a reactionary thing, a hope for what will happen, a wish for a story to be something.

The fact that you can't determine it is what makes it powerful, when you read, the reason you care if someone lives or dies is because you have no power over it, you are in essence at the mercy of the writer. It doesn't make sense for a writer to say "I hope this characters survives", unless I guess they let the story write itself. Same goes for shipping.

I probably should’ve worded it differently but I think you explained my stance better than I could. I don’t actually believe Square is “pushing” a ship by having Cloud and Tifa end together, especially since I don’t think what happens between them diminishes Cloud and Aerith and vice versa. I’m really just questioning the fans who claim that Square is pushing either ship over the other. How exactly do we define “pushing” from the creators’ POV?

On the other hand, a lot of fans say that the creators leave Cloud’s feelings up to the player and I’m having a hard time reconciling that with the fact that the creators pretty clearly lay out his feelings themselves in supplementary materials. So I’d really like to know if there’s anything indicating this from the creators other than the aforementioned out-of-context Nomura quote from the Kingdom Hearts interview.

 

[Eerie]

I understand what you want to say, but it's to note that the devs have said 2 things:

- They don't look at characters from a relationship point of view, but instead they looked at the characters themselves to expand on them (this was answered *specifically* on the LTD)

- Nojima did say that Remake would have a very different feel compared to the OG, because the game was very realistic and as such had much less space for imagination

And interestingly enough, what we can see, LTD-wise, is that the Cloud and Tifa interactions have been going through the roof. To say that the devs ship it or push it is wrong; it simply fits the fact that Tifa is part of the intimate part of the plot, the one that revolves around Cloud. In turn, Aerith has a role much more expanded towards the overarching story - but this also means a very different relationship with Cloud. In the end, even if they took out Cloud of the equation to expand on Aerith's character, it's something that they could not do with Tifa because Tifa's role revolves around Cloud's mind fucked upness, so to speak, and her bond with him. As such, some people might feel that they "push" for cloti, when they just tell the story as it is, and make it fit with the whole Compilation - which is also why we can see just how much Aerith still is in love with Zack, even by the end of the game (at such point in the OG, clerith had been "pushed" hard, for the sake of the story, once again).

The devs look at this story, how it evolved, how the characters were expanded on in later games or novels, and decided to make the best story they could with the characters, so that everything would make sense. And in such light, it is normal that we, as the players, feel that suddenly there is a huge push for cloti - because their *romantic* bond is at the core of FFVII, in the sense that it was the start, but also the unlock of Cloud's true personality. Aerith has the possibility of bonding deeper with every other character this time, and I hope they go that way, and we see her forming new friendships with Yuffie, Cid, Vincent... hell, even Cait Sith! We probably will see her relationship with Zack and their bond more.

Do I think it's game over for clerith? Hell no. I still think there will be some clerith scenes because at the end of the day, the devs will also want to please everyone. But cloti will also get more - and just food for thoughts, but there will probably be no carry over, nor LTD nor weapons for the next game(s), so that leaves a big question mark about how the Highwind scene will be handled - I am currently betting on it being HA non-skipable this time.

Edit: I wrote Aerith thinking of Cloud, oops

 

[Stiggie]

I understand what you want to say, but it's to note that the devs have said 2 things:

- They don't look at characters from a relationship point of view, but instead they looked at the characters themselves to expand on them (this was answered *specifically* on the LTD)

- Nojima did say that Remake would have a very different feel compared to the OG, because the game was very realistic and as such had much less space for imagination

And interestingly enough, what we can see, LTD-wise, is that the Cloud and Tifa interactions have been going through the roof. To say that the devs ship it or push it is wrong; it simply fits the fact that Tifa is part of the intimate part of the plot, the one that revolves around Aerith. In turn, Aerith has a role much more expanded towards the overarching story - but this also means a very different relationship with Cloud. In the end, even if they took out Cloud of the equation to expand on Aerith's character, it's something that they could not do with Tifa because Tifa's role revolves around Cloud's mind fucked upness, so to speak, and her bond with him. As such, some people might feel that they "push" for cloti, when they just tell the story as it is, and make it fit with the whole Compilation - which is also why we can see just how much Aerith still is in love with Zack, even by the end of the game (at such point in the OG, clerith had been "pushed" hard, for the sake of the story, once again).

The devs look at this story, how it evolved, how the characters were expanded on in later games or novels, and decided to make the best story they could with the characters, so that everything would make sense. And in such light, it is normal that we, as the players, feel that suddenly there is a huge push for cloti - because their *romantic* bond is at the core of FFVII, in the sense that it was the start, but also the unlock of Cloud's true personality. Aerith has the possibility of bonding deeper with every other character this time, and I hope they go that way, and we see her forming new friendships with Yuffie, Cid, Vincent... hell, even Cait Sith! We probably will see her relationship with Zack and their bond more.

Do I think it's game over for clerith? Hell no. I still think there will be some clerith scenes because at the end of the day, the devs will also want to please everyone. But cloti will also get more - and just food for thoughts, but there will probably be no carry over, nor LTD nor weapons for the next game(s), so that leaves a big question mark about how the Highwind scene will be handled - I am currently betting on it being HA non-skipable this time.

Very well put, yes, basically this.
The reason Cloti takes precedent over Clerith in the remake is because it has to, I feel like that's perhaps the strongest argument, if you want all parts of the story to flow, Cloud ending with Tifa and having Aerith as a different bond works more naturally.
People often look at storylines in isolation without seeing how it affects the whole. If we accept the idea that the LTD was intentionally ambiguous, then we can still deduce that if the story were to be fleshed out more, which way the pendulum would be most likely to swing.

If we just logically follow the chain, it goes as follows.
1: Every character needs to have a strong, fleshed out role in the remake.
2: Aerith has a role to play as the last ancient.
3: Aerith has power in death.
4: While Aerith could perform the role of love interest, Tifa can't perform Aeriths other roles.
5: Aerith can't replace Tifa, because doing so would leave nothing for Tifa.

Tifa fundamentally cannot fulfill the role in the plot that Aerith has. And while I argue Aerith also fundamentally can't fill Tifas role when it comes to her history with Cloud, it's still easier to argue that she perhaps could. That means that the roles they will play are basically set.

Giving Aerith more bonds with the other team members, and making the Zerith connection stronger harms nothing in the story, and makes her death both more tragic for our team, and yet more emotionally satisfying. Empower the Clerith connection though and you risk weakening Tifas character, Zacks character, the bonds betweem them and Cloud/Aerith, and the impact Aerith has on the party in geneal.

The only reason to write that story is as fan-fiction/fan-service, it's not the story that you'd write if you want to make a mature, complex, story.

 

[KindOfBlue]

I don’t know if I think one ship takes precedent over the other necessarily, but I like that they’re at least taking a more balanced approach to the relationships since the reveal at the Lifestream will have a more solid foundation. I wish the discovery and resolution scenes were all non-optional so that more people could get the full context of their interactions. At this point though, I can’t see what the low-affection scene would add to the narrative considering the direction of the compilation and how the ultimanias treat that scene as the moment Cloud and Tifa confirm their feelings together so I also wonder if the high-affection version will be be non-optional and if they’ll show a bit more of what happened before fading to black. Even though we know they obviously just held hands all night, right?

I do fear for how badly the internet may respond if they actually decide to take away any room to misinterpret the relationships, especially from YouTubers and social media personalities who push shipping heavily. I actually do like Cloud and Aerith but to me it ends in death like Zack and Aerith does.

 

[Maidenofwar]

Do I think it's game over for clerith? Hell no. I still think there will be some clerith scenes because at the end of the day, the devs will also want to please everyone.

Thank you ?

 

[KindOfBlue]

Thank you ?

The worst shippers tend to be the ones who deny any romantic attraction between their opposing ship. As far as I’m concerned, Cloud and Aerith developing feelings for each other is part of the story just like Cloud and Tifa realizing their feelings together. Shouldn’t that be enough to satisfy both ships, even if one girl dies and he ends up with the other?

 

[KindOfBlue]

Came across this vid earlier today, wondering if anybody’s ever watched it?

 

[null]

That was the goods. The cubed meat had me in tears.

 

[Graymouse]

I am not sure what I just watched. I am not sure of the sincerity of the video. I felt that the video was patronizing in my opinion. So, with that said I quote the famous words of Megatron, "Such heroic nonsense."

 

[Mort yori Amour]

Hello there. I'm the creator of the LTD video linked above. I've been a long-time lurker and thought I'd pop in and let you know that I have uploaded Part 2:

 

[a_apple 2.0]

Hello there. I'm the creator of the LTD video linked above. I've been a long-time lurker and thought I'd pop in and let you know that I have uploaded Part 2:

I sense the sarcasm in that vid, you can fool me, you are clearly a Cloud/Tifa fan who tires to play the crazy C/A fan

 

[KindOfBlue]

Based on how confused I am, I would’ve guessed your real name is Tetsuya Nomura

 

[Rydeen]

This is random af but your voice sounds so much like our member fancy (don't worry that's a good thing).

 

[KindOfBlue]

“Platonic siblings”, eh?...well, if that’s the case then I guess “my little sister couldn’t possibly be this cute”

EDIT: I don’t mean to point fingers or make accusations or anything, but I’m not so sure if trolling is the best way to approach this debate if that is indeed what’s happening here. It generally pushes the discourse away from an actual good-faith discussion of the material we all love and turns the conversation into a contest to see who can “own the antis” more.

 

[Graymouse]

This video was expertly put together with great knowledge of the LTD. Thank you for sharing!

 

[Cat on Mars]

“Platonic siblings”, eh?...well, if that’s the case then I guess “my little sister couldn’t possibly be this cute”

I got this reference and now I hate myself.

 

[Mort yori Amour]

Let's try this multi-quote thing, eh?

Based on how confused I am, I would’ve guessed your real name is Tetsuya Nomura

Tetsuya Nomura does seem to like to confuse and perplex, but I like him.

This is random af but your voice sounds so much like our member fancy (don't worry that's a good thing).

Oh... thank you then. I went on YouTube to check out her voice out of curiosity and she sounded lovely, so I definitely see that as a good thing. Thanks again.

“Platonic siblings”, eh?...well, if that’s the case then I guess “my little sister couldn’t possibly be this cute”

I... that reference rings a bell, somehow.

EDIT: I don’t mean to point fingers or make accusations or anything, but I’m not so sure if trolling is the best way to approach this debate if that is indeed what’s happening here. It generally pushes the discourse away from an actual good-faith discussion of the material we all love and turns the conversation into a contest to see who can “own the antis” more.

I don't intend to bring any of the debate here. I just wanted to share the video in case anyone was interested, but actual debate can take place on YouTube, Twitter, or via a private conversation if anyone wishes to discuss further. People have been... very passionate toward me, let's say, and this forum (which as I said, I've lurked on and enjoyed for a long time) seems to be pretty even-keeled and calm by comparison. I'm not trying to bring any messy energy here.

This video was expertly put together with great knowledge of the LTD. Thank you for sharing!

I think that *might have been* sarcasm... which I can be a fan of sometimes, so I actually appreciate the comment.

Anyway, thank you for checking out my video and for the comments!

 

[KindOfBlue]

I don't intend to bring any of the debate here. I just wanted to share the video in case anyone was interested, but actual debate can take place on YouTube, Twitter, or via a private conversation if anyone wishes to discuss further.

Actually I think the “bringing the debate here” part is what the thread is for, I’m just saying I’m having a hard time placing whether you were serious or being tongue-in-cheek which is why I shared the first video. Didn’t expect you to actually show up, but welcome!

 

[Graymouse]

Let's try this multi-quote thing, eh?



Tetsuya Nomura does seem to like to confuse and perplex, but I like him.



Oh... thank you then. I went on YouTube to check out her voice out of curiosity and she sounded lovely, so I definitely see that as a good thing. Thanks again.



I... that reference rings a bell, somehow.



I don't intend to bring any of the debate here. I just wanted to share the video in case anyone was interested, but actual debate can take place on YouTube, Twitter, or via a private conversation if anyone wishes to discuss further. People have been... very passionate toward me, let's say, and this forum (which as I said, I've lurked on and enjoyed for a long time) seems to be pretty even-keeled and calm by comparison. I'm not trying to bring any messy energy here.



I think that *might have been* sarcasm... which I can be a fan of sometimes, so I actually appreciate the comment.

Anyway, thank you for checking out my video and for the comments!

At any rate, welcome to the forums. Most of us here are pretty level headed with the LTD for the most part. I will admit it does get messy sometimes but it almost never gets too intense. The Mods usually stop it before it gets to that level. With that said, If you want to discuss the LTD, that is what this thread is for. So, I invite you to join in the discussion if you would like to. I look forward to reading your posts.

 

[KindOfBlue]

I got this reference and now I hate myself.

I mean we could go further down the incest rabbit hole, I’m sure Sigmund Freud would have a field day psychoanalyzing Sephiroth’s relationship with Jenova

 

[Cat on Mars]

I ain't a dead bearded dude with a cocaine habit but I already explored that unholy relationship and the results are in my art thread. Here and here.

The one and only FFVII's OTP.

 

[Graymouse]

I ain't a dead bearded dude with a cocaine habit but I already explored that unholy relationship and the results are in my art thread. Here and here.

The one and only FFVII's OTP.

It has been a while. Where have you been hiding?

 

[KindOfBlue]

Here and here.

From now on, my headcanon is that Hojo drew these himself and Sephiroth lost his mind after finding them in the Shinra Manor

 

[Cat on Mars]

It has been a while. Where have you been hiding?

Somewhere else where I wouldn't get banned for saying that someone's arguments weren't original.

From now on, my headcanon is that Hojo drew these himself and Sephiroth lost his mind after finding them in the Shinra Manor

Nice. Inspiring weird headcanons is my gift and pleasure.
I have a full story with Sephinova on the works. It explains one or two things about those pics.
Yes I overthink things, I'm still posting here after all.

Now I have a rant you all are free to ignore if you don't give a fuck about my opinion, which I guess covers most TLS' users.

Spoiler: LTD rant

I don't post here regularly because for me, the matter has been settled for more than 20 years and discussing this is an exercise in futility and the LTD is a meme at this point and not worthy of serious discussion or analysis until new material comes out (I'm looking at you, Chapter 2).

The OG was pretty clear about this topic unless you were partial to other ships AND unable to understand that sometimes stories don't end as you'd like. Looking for any tiny scrap of validation in promos and cameos and twitter polls in order to make an argument for your ship of choice is ok... as long as you only do it for fun. When it's done in earnest, however, it's worrying.

Some shippers' zealotry has to be one of the worst traits about this fandom, and the main reason I'm not really part of this fandom on twitter and other platforms. I make fanart because I like FF7, not to get sucked into twitter shitstorms because I don't make enough fanart of any particular ship... like some fanartist found out earlier this year.

Until shippers learn to have fun with shipping again, I'm just going to shitpost and poke fun at the LTD. I always disliked how the LTD pitted the main heroines aganist them and how it brought the most obnoxious, sexist and misogynistic remarks out of "fans".
I hoped the Remake would change this toxic dynamic but I was naive, people will find anything to hate on people for bullshit reasons.
Pretending this thread can be a neutral area is just that, pretending. A lie. A pipe dream. In reality people come here with baggage from their twitter slapfights and their tumblr essays and circlejerks, very few people engage in good faith. The only ones that do is because they are TLS regulars.

Also, most shippers aren't interested in anything but shipping. I sometimes wonder if people like fiction anymore or only their interpretation of it.
In short, I'm not going to argue about headcanons. People can ship whatever they want and they should let others do it in peace as long as they remember that FF7 has a story, a very clear and defined one, and negating it is complete intellectual dishonesty.

Tl; dr: some people are obnoxious and that's why Sephinova exists. This kind of debate should be fun, not people talking past each other.

 

[KindOfBlue]

Some shippers' zealotry has to be one of the worst traits about this fandom, and the main reason I'm not really part of this fandom on twitter and other platforms.

Because I’m still a pretty new fan, I’ve yet to really understand when and how the LTD got this bad over the years. The only other shipping war that was this intense that involved something I’m a fan of was with Naruto, and much like here, I never understood why that was such a big deal either. I could understand liking or preferring a pairing, but denying where the story goes is where I get confused. I respect a lot of crackshippers more for this reason since the nature of crackshipping means you kind of have to accept that it’s not really a thing, but you still just have fun with it anyways.

I’d really like to know how people interpreted the love triangle before the Compilation, interviews, ultimanias, etc. as I think the OG by itself does allow a lot more room for interpretation. I also wonder how much the nature of the LTD would change if we ever do get clarification for some of the things I mentioned earlier in the thread, namely if Cloud’s feelings for Aerith only exist as part of his fake persona or if they were at least in part influenced by Zack, or if Cloud’s guilt in Advent Children has anything to do with romance, or what Cloud and Tifa’s official relationship status is before, during, and after Advent Children. The remake is probably the last chance to remove any room for doubt or uncertainty regarding romance, but I’m fine not having every single answer to every possible romantic question especially if ultimately doesn’t add anything to the story.