SPOILERS LTD Remake — It's like New Coke except ... no, it's exactly like New Coke

Dr Frasier Crane

Lv. 25 Adventurer
I just want to say, this is a mistranslation. Cloud excluded himself from the others wilfully, the others did not exclude him. This change a lot of perspective on Tifa as a kid and how Cloud thought himself better than the other kids. That's the reason why I think he already was in love with Tifa - he was acting like a little jealous brat because other guys were close to her, so he had to pretend to be better than them as a mechanism.
Yeah, this is going to factor into my response, but if we take both the OG and the Remake into account, which the video does too, and accurate translations of the OG’s text, Tifa has never purposefully excluded Cloud. Cloud has frequently excluded himself - which is underlined by Barret’s comment in my previous reply: “When the job’s done, we’re done. Your words!” Cloud acted like an arsehole to Barret, and Barret responded in kind. Do Barret’s past transgressions count against his relationship with Cloud as Tifa’s alleged transgressions do? Should we not see Barret’s resolution scene as a wonderful moment of progress where these stubborn idiots finally become friends? As for Tifa, the Remake has already clarified that she wanted to include Cloud when they were children - in Chapter 1 of all places:
 

eleamaya

Pro Adventurer
Zack is truly a Clerith shipper. His existence brings these two people closer together. And no, Zack is a great guy. He will truly be happy that these two people he cares about found each other.
LMAO, this one only works because he DIED.
If he was alive? Which loyal guy does have no problem and no pride to hand his beloved woman to another guy's arm even if he was his own best friend?
 

KindOfBlue

Pro Adventurer
AKA
Blue
Yeah, the take that Zack ships Aerith and Cloud is pretty weird and if we follow that logic further, shouldn’t Aerith then ship Cloud and Tifa? At least it would make sense for her to do so especially if she knows more than she should.

Also, I don’t know if Cloud calling Aerith “mother” or him leaving Zack’s sword in Aerith’s flowerbed (I feel naughty typing that) are meant as symbolic statements on romance so I typically take interpretations like that with the smallest grain of salt, like when people interpret Tifa’s reunion flower being “dead and buried” as some kind of commentary on her feelings being buried by Cloud and Aerith.

That said, I kinda treat the “does Real Cloud like Aerith?” question the same way I treat the “are Cloud and Tifa officially together?” question, my answer being “we don’t know for sure because it doesn’t really matter” because as much as I would like to know these things from a storytelling and character development POV, I have to wonder if the story really changes that much (unless of course the remake does end up going in a different direction). Hypothetically...

If Real Cloud only has romantic feelings for Tifa:
The plot of AC still works. We could argue Real Cloud only likes Tifa but we can’t really prove that at the moment. The “even if you think you have, it’s not real” line is a pretty groundbreaking revelation though but we’ll have to see where they go with it.

If Real Cloud only has romantic feelings for Aerith:
It would be inconsistent with the statements in the ultimanias and the undertones of “Case of Tifa”, but the plot of AC still works. Similar to the previous point though, it needs to be proven. All the so-called subtext in the world won’t hold much weight against the literal worlds of the devs.

If Real Cloud has romantic feelings for both:
The plot of AC still works. Because it might reflect poorly on Cloud to officially be with Tifa but also still have feelings for Aerith, not giving Cloud and Tifa an official label probably helps the devs avoid addressing that subject, and the fans will have no choice but to argue for all of eternity. Unless they explicitly have Cloud pick one over the other, that’s kind of the way it is.

I don’t think it would be hard to argue that Cloud was still wavering in the years leading up to AC, and that the end of AC was a necessary step towards him fully committing to Tifa. Alternatively, they could have Cloud only have feelings for Aerith post-AC but I don’t think it would fit the theme of the movie.
 
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Eerie

Fire and Blood
Also, I don’t know if Cloud calling Aerith “mother” or him leaving Zack’s sword in Aerith’s flowerbed (I feel naughty typing that) are meant as symbolic statements on romance so I typically take interpretations like that with the smallest grain of salt, like when people interpret Tifa’s reunion flower being “dead and buried” as some kind of commentary on her feelings being buried by Cloud and Aerith.

I don't think it's a state of romance, rather that they are reunited in death, just like what happens when you bury two married people in the same tomb. Especially since last he saw them, they were walking off in the Lifestream together. But there is no romance possible in the Lifestream, you are dead, period.

As for Tifa's reference to the flower, it was a testament of how everything she had built since she was in Midgar, her bar, was buried. The flower does not represent Aerith, it represents reunion. She can't reunite again with her her life pre-fall plate. Everything has been lost. Nothing in her resolution has nothing to do with love, not even hers, even if that's hinted through a hint to the Lifestream scene - but that's more for us than for the characters. This is also why I noted that for the GS date, only Tifa's date will make sense, because Aerith's already happened in this part, as well as Barret's. Because romance has not been touched at all for her, and we know it's a necessary step.

If Real Cloud only has romantic feelings for Tifa:
The plot of AC still works. We could argue Real Cloud only likes Tifa but we can’t really prove that at the moment. The “even if you think you have, it’s not real” line is a pretty groundbreaking revelation though but we’ll have to see where they go with it.

The reality is that Cloud's feelings for Aerith are only ever described as "guilt" from the devs. The only woman described as important and part of his family ever is Tifa. They even diluted AC with ACC by adding a lot of Zack scenes, to lessen the romantic implications the clerith scenes could have. What else could the devs do? No couple in FF history has ever the tenth of what Cloud and Tifa have, yet here we are.

Cloud in ACC had a severe case of depression, he was afraid of being happy, of losing that happiness. That much has been described by the devs. It has nothing to do with his romantic feelings because he was very happy with Tifa and the kids, becoming happier and happier still until his mind broke. And it was not driven by romantic feelings towards Aerith, it was driven by his fear of failure. This is why in ACC you see him saving Tifa the way he couldn't save Aerith. It's not because romance! No, it's because it addresses his fear of being unable to save people who are dear to him. Because yes, Aerith, and Zack, and Tifa, and the kids, are all dear to him. He already lost two and he blames himself for those losses, tho especially Aerith because well, he was a vegetable when Zack died.

At this point, I really don't know what the devs need to do to express them more clearly. I think Remake will adress this because with Aerith's death being separated from the Lifestream scene by one game, it will allow people to continue to see cloti beyond Aerith's death. In the OG, past Midgar, there is really little romance until the GS date and then the next really big chunk of romance is the Lifestream scene. There are little bits here and there, but it's scattered and you can miss them easily - I know I did, because all that interested me in my first run was to run after Sephiroth lol. Even now, clerith has been lessened a lot compared to the OG while cloti was propelled when we thought we'd get next to nothing before the Lifestream scene.
 

KindOfBlue

Pro Adventurer
AKA
Blue
But there is no romance possible in the Lifestream, you are dead, period.
Yeah, that’s pretty much where I stand on the “romance in death” issue. I’ve seen people say “it’s a fantasy game so not even death can separate Cloud and Aerith”...but that was the point of her death, right? Same with Zack, I think. People who want Zack and Aerith to reunite in death are typically on the opposite side of people who want Cloud and Aerith to reunite, but to me it’s not like either of them can really continue their relationships anyways.

The flower does not represent Aerith, it represents reunion.
First time I saw that interpretation, I thought “okay but if the flower means Tifa and Cloud is dead and buried, why wouldn’t that also apply to Aerith as well, who gave him the flower in the first place?”. People really do have a weird way of reading too heavily into the romance.

They even diluted AC with ACC by adding a lot of Zack scenes, to lessen the romantic implications the clerith scenes could have.
I dunno if they specifically set out to lessen the Cloud & Aerith romance but the effect of Crisis Core on stuff like ACC and potentially even the remake does provide a more...viable resolution, I’ll say.

I think what’s going on here is “well, the devs never said AC was about romance but they never said it wasn’t either...” I don’t necessarily look at the romantic/non-romantic interpretations as being mutually exclusive to each other, at least until they start to conflict with Word of God.

Like I said, let’s say Real Cloud actually did have some feelings for Aerith, what does that change really? Cloud and Tifa still have feelings for each other, they’ve confirmed those feelings to each other, and they live together. Unless he outright rejects Tifa, it puts Cloud x Aerith shippers on constant defense mode.

So if they really wanna go down the “Real Cloud only likes Tifa” road, I think they’ll have to make it as clear as possible without any room for debate. A kiss with Tifa at least doesn’t change whether or not he actually likes Aerith but still makes Tifa more obvious. I gotta say though, “even if you think you have, it’s not real” surprised me. It’s a really bold move to go back and say he never actually liked Aerith (IF that’s what they’re doing) and I know it won’t go over well with people who were so committed to them being the couple for all these years. This just in, breaking news from Japan: armed Clerith insurrectionists have stormed the offices of Square Enix.
 
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Ryushikaze

Deus Admiral Parsimonious, PHD, DDS, MD, JD, OBE
AKA
Tim, Ryu
In regards to the whole "Does Cloud love Aerith after death" question, I again reiterate that the question is jumping the gun. Does Cloud love Aerith when she's still alive? Even Faux Cloud? Does Faux Cloud love anyone, really? Does what Faux Cloud feels equate to what real Cloud does? All of these are very complicated questions and the game does not answer most of them.

We as the player get to decide how to react to a lot of things, both in the OG and in the remake. There's a lot we don't get to decide at all. An interesting change of what was taken away from us was the decision to give the flower to Tifa, or to Marlene. Now we can only give it to Tifa. And even in the OG, we stop getting to decide stuff after a certain point.

Anyways, as always, yes it's possible that Real and Faux Cloud fell in love with Aerith. But that should not be an assumption. It needs to be demonstrated through arguments and examples. Same as it should be that Cloud's love for Tifa is demonstrated through arguments and examples in the text.
 

KindOfBlue

Pro Adventurer
AKA
Blue
It needs to be demonstrated through arguments and examples. Same as it should be that Cloud's love for Tifa is demonstrated through arguments and examples in the text.
I believe it’s at this point where the K word would get brought up but probably best to avoid that can of worms. :monster: Not that it would matter anyways, Cloud strikes me as the type of guy who’s too socially inept to give himself a relationship label. The poor guy didn’t even know either girl liked him (at least, until the Lifestream).

Sure, two people could share a home, sleep in separate beds, raise children together, and still have feelings for each other without actually being “officially” a couple (I dunno how the Japanese would view such a living arrangement). I just don’t know if there ever needed to be a conversation where Cloud and Tifa adopt official labels if he already tells her he “has” her now, she says he “always had” her, and he says what he means is “different”.

I mean, Zack and Aerith was a thing, then it ended. Cloud and Aerith was a thing in its own right, then it ended. Cloud and Tifa is a thing that’ll end eventually, as all things do. Except Cloud x Marle. That shit is eternal.
 

KindOfBlue

Pro Adventurer
AKA
Blue
We don’t know it, I was just saying even if we did and it turned out they didn’t share a bed, I don’t think it means much of anything.

From what I could remember though, Cloud has his own office which I guess may or may not have a bed of it’s own. If it does, I take it he sleeps there regularly while Tifa sleeps with Marlene (though I’m sure Cloud and Tifa have shared a bed at least once while they, ahem...file their taxes).

I assumed there’s several bedrooms anyways but do they ever mention Tifa having a bedroom of her own? Like I said, I dunno how the Japanese feel about married couples sleeping separately but I did find this on Google. https://www.google.com/amp/brightsi...couples-in-japan-sleep-separately-798194/amp/ Would certainly make sense given the family dynamics and Cloud and Tifa’s jobs.

Not that Cloud and Tifa are married but they sure are written like a couple going through a rough patch just from different statements from the devs and from what we know about the story leading up to AC. Having an official label doesn’t change how I view the story, if anything I’m more interested in the shitstorm it would create if they actually came out and said “after the events of the remake, Cloud and Tifa settled down, got married, and had many many little spikey haired babies” or something.

Considering their relationship being one that was confirmed mutually “without words” (wink wink), I could see them not really having an official label while still very much acting as a couple. Maybe they don’t even know what they “are” but it doesn’t matter because it’s something that doesn’t need to be spoken since they know each other’s thoughts and feelings through...filing taxes.

At least that’s what makes sense to me from reading “Case of Tifa”, it makes Tifa’s question of “do you love me” work because perhaps they were on the same page prior to Cloud falling into depression so it wasn’t a question she felt she needed to ask until it became clear her and Cloud were having problems. Hell, there’s moments where Cloud even feels bad about keeping things from Tifa and I dunno why he would if he didn’t feel like he had some sort of commitment to her.

But then if Cloud actually did still have some romantic feelings for Aerith, it might make him look like a two-timing jerk so leaving the “does Cloud still like Aerith/are Cloud and Tifa officially together” question in the air probably keeps SE from having to address that. Personally, I say go all the way in (hehe). Could make for an interesting character study as long as it doesn’t end with Cloud spending the rest of his life miserable.

Alternatively, my theory about the remake preventing some of the events of AC turns out to be true and they completely skirt the issue altogether by either making something “official”, killing everybody off, or just not addressing it. I think I’m mentally prepared to never have a 100% irrefutable resolution here but just let this thing die already. I’ve been in the fanbase less than a year and I’m already sick of it lol, big ups to you old heads out there.
 
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Eerie

Fire and Blood
There's the kids' bedroom, where Marlene and Denzel sleep, and where we see Cloud and Tifa awaken during AC/C. And then there's Cloud's office, which is clearly called "office" (so not a place where Cloud sleeps usually) with a spare bed (and a tyre) and no blanket in sight. And then in Case of Tifa, there's this discussion they have at night where he was asleep - and where it's implied that they at least sleep in the same room, if not the same bed.

People want to make "what if" situations but the big picture is very clear, Cloud and Tifa share at least a bedroom, and given Remake honestly, I don't see them not sharing a bed. The only time they didn't was when they were building the new 7th Heaven.

Tifa is very insecure. That's why Case of Tifa was written the way it was, that's why she has complicated feelings towards Aerith - that get resolved in ACC, BTW. Normally, Cloud is opened to her - that's what the Ultimania states, that she's the one to whom he opens his heart. However as his depression kicks in, he closes it to even her, which is why she becomes insecure about their relationship. It's also the fact that Tifa is the only one he opens to that makes me say that not only he does love her, but also that his feelings towards Aerith are different. The fact that she's engraved in his heart is normal, she was a dear friend - for whom he was falling for at some point and though it wasn't fully him, those feelings certainly are still part of him - however it's also quite a very Japanese thing to say about friends or family passing. My own father used it to describe his feelings after his own mother died.

Tifa is, in ACC, busting Cloud because he's depressed and abandoning his family as a result. She's totally right to do that because that's what a SO should be doing at that moment; tell the other that he should do something about it - in Cloud's case, it was going after the kids to bring them back. They were losing to a memory because Cloud couldn't shake off his guilt, the feeling that he shouldn't be happy when a dear friend was dead. There's a reason why Cloud's story stops there; it's because he manages to finally get better and work on those troubles, and allow himself to be happy (it is also to note that AC/C happens like a week or two after CoT and last at worst what, one week? So Cloud wasn't gone for even a month).

Which is why all the other works including him are parallel universe such as Dissidia. But we still see him telling Tifa to close the bar for one day so they can all have a picnic together - which is what Tifa wanted, to have some time together with the kids. As stories go, Cloud's story is finished at this point, and my guess is that if they add another game post-DoC with him at the center, it will be very different from what we have had up until now - his identity crisis and his depression being resolved, they will have to find something else. But it might be complicated if, as I think it will, the Compilation remains canon, because they already have 2 kids and a teen under their roof to take care of ^^'

What are they? Cloud answers it in The Kids are Alright; they're family. He's the father, Tifa is the mother. It's not an easy task, especially not for such young people, but for Tifa during CoT, and partly ACC, it was difficult because when you are young in such a complicated relationship, you don't know where you are and where you stand if the other is depressed. You're alone and trying to communicate - something neither of them is good at - and that quite doesn't work and suddenly you wonder if that it was only you who thought your family that way. I really think that CoT suffers from being amongst the first novellas written by Nojima because the subject it touches is very complex, but he was still a rookie at writing novellas, so the point doesn't really get across and you have to really look at the big picture to understand it.

In the end, I rambled a lot, sorry. I'm just grumpy that in order to discuss the LTD, we go into such details, forgetting what the big picture is. What has been told is very, very clear if you look at it, but if you go to details, you can discuss everything as if that point mattered - and in the perspective, it does not. I've said it in this thread, but love is quite unfair, and this LTD is very much so: the more time you spend with your lover, the more love your nurture and grow. In that sense, Cloud and Aerith are locked in time and space while Cloud and Tifa not only grew closer before FFVII/R began, but also during and after. This is why I think clerith would work way better in AUs than in universe, as a couple. Because clerith can't ignore cloti, it can't ignore that it's outweight by it, that what we're seeing ties Cloud and Tifa together even more than during OG.
 

Graymouse

Pro Adventurer
This is why I think clerith would work way better in AUs than in universe, as a couple. Because clerith can't ignore cloti, it can't ignore that it's outweight by it, that what we're seeing ties Cloud and Tifa together even more than during OG.

The sad part of about this statement is that this wouldn't resolve the LTD either. Everyone will continue to "fight" over which AU is the "canon" AU. You would think that the word "Alternate Universe" would solve everything. It won't. In fact it will probably make things more messy than they are now. I really hope that Square doesn't do this just to resolve the LTD.
 
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Eerie

Fire and Blood
Oh, I wasn't talking about AU made by SE. I was talking about AUs for fanfics etc. I know a clerith who's fully into AU, because she knows that cloti is canon and is too aware of this and the story to enjoy it in canon-universe in fics. And I truly think that's where clerith should thrive easily, because they have an easy imagery for them.
 

KindOfBlue

Pro Adventurer
AKA
Blue
And then in Case of Tifa, there's this discussion they have at night where he was asleep - and where it's implied that they at least sleep in the same room, if not the same bed.
What I mean is unless they plain as day spell out “Cloud and Tifa share a bed or a room”, the most I could say without feeling dishonest is “Cloud and Tifa may or may not share a bed but who cares” even though it’s likely that they do. I guess the line about Cloud sleeping could indicate they share a room at least (unless if Cloud just leaves his door open) but from my limited research, it does seem married couples sleeping separately is not unusual in Japan anyways so it probably wouldn’t matter if they were sleeping together or not?

But to my earlier point, we know they like each other, we know they know they like each other, we know they consider themselves family. Whether or not they share a bed or a bedroom matters little to me in terms of what that means for their relationship. Hell, my parents love the crap out of each other after nearly 30 years of being happily married and they often sleep separately.

but also that his feelings towards Aerith are different. The fact that she's engraved in his heart is normal, she was a dear friend - for whom he was falling for at some point and though it wasn't fully him, those feelings certainly are still part of him
You’ll notice I have kind of a “Schrodinger’s cat” sort of attitude when it comes to this stuff. Because the possibility of Cloud still having some feelings for Aerith post-OG is still there, I can’t completely dismiss it nor do I feel like I have to, I think what we know about Cloud and Tifa is enough to consider them a couple especially if we’re comparing them to Cloud and Aerith or even Zack and Aerith, an actual “official” couple.

Personally, for me it’s not enough for the devs to talk about Cloud’s guilt in AC and never mention romance. I would need them to explicitly say Cloud does not have romantic feelings for Aerith after X point before I could confidently consider it a fact, it’s just a general rule of thumb of mine when it comes to canon vs headcanon. But I don’t need them to do that either, I really don’t think it changes the outcome of the story.

But it might be complicated if, as I think it will, the Compilation remains canon, because they already have 2 kids and a teen under their roof to take care of ^^'
Oh yeah, that other kid from DoC...guess we’ll see how they handle the whole canon thing. My theory about the remake preventing some of the events of AC still depends on those events having occurred at some point in the past, as those events were necessary to set off the events of the remake in the first place like a version of the grandfather paradox.

So we still have the story of Cloud going through depression in AC, but maybe the changes in the remake especially regarding Zack and Aerith would keep Cloud from falling to depression (I think they’ll still die, but maybe Cloud won’t blame himself this time). If this really is the last of the Compilation, I expect a permanent end to Sephiroth and Jenova so that also prevents the geostigma crisis.

Then they could keep elements like Cloud and Tifa living together and taking in Denzel and Marlene, rebuilding Seventh Heaven, Strife Delivery Service etc. Seems like a pretty good opportunity for a conclusive good ending. Unless they say screw it, all of you die and go to the Lifestream so nobody wins.

In the end, I rambled a lot, sorry.
Friend, any opportunity I can get to have a discussion about these dorks, I’m more than happy to indulge in :kiss:

You would think that the word "Alternate Universe" would solve everything. It won't. In fact it will probably make things more messy than they are now. I really hope that Square doesn't do this just to resolve the LTD.
I’m pretty open to even the wildest of changes but I can’t tell which I would hate more: killing Tifa instead of Aerith or having Cloud and Aerith be together in one AU while Cloud’s with Tifa in another. I mean, never mind the love triangle, it would be a pretty hard sell to convince me that it’s good for the story and I’m somebody who actually likes the Whispers.
 
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Eerie

Fire and Blood
I would need them to explicitly say Cloud does not have romantic feelings for Aerith after X point before I could confidently consider it a fact

However, you might have to consider that it's really not a Japanese thing to do ;) Also, I don't think the devs care a lot about the LTD, as I said already the LTD started from a misunderstanding mixed with bad translations. To them, their story was clear, when Cloud reveals himself in the Lifestream, it was also a love confession to Tifa. End of story. They have sex under the Highwind, have a family, move on. Why is it that people keep asking them who Cloud loves? Isn't it obvious enough? I think that at worst, that's what they'll do with Remake, make it more obvious so that this doesn't continue to pursue them. They must be pretty exhausted about this LTD, and I noticed every time they were asked questions about it in the scope of Remake, they always talked about the *girls*, not the LTD. Which does make me happy, because really, IMHO, Remake shines with its characterisations.
 

Phantasia

Pro Adventurer
Hi, long time lurker and new to the forums.

Personally, for me it’s not enough for the devs to talk about Cloud’s guilt in AC and never mention romance. I would need them to explicitly say Cloud does not have romantic feelings for Aerith after X point before I could confidently consider it a fact, it’s just a general rule of thumb of mine when it comes to canon vs headcanon. But I don’t need them to do that either, I really don’t think it changes the outcome of the story.

Decided to make an account to comment on this. I’ve seen people use similar statements to conclude that Tifa is not enough for Could (as a lover), to the point that he doesn’t answer her calls and decide to abandon her to feel closer to his true love before dying. To me, it sounds very ill-intentioned.
 

Dr Frasier Crane

Lv. 25 Adventurer
So this week is going to be a doozy - thanks, Blue Monday. I’ll have to put my deeper dive into Pollen Annie’s second video on hold for a bit. Didn’t want to miss out on all this discussion in the meantime though.
Oh, I wasn't talking about AU made by SE. I was talking about AUs for fanfics etc. I know a clerith who's fully into AU, because she knows that cloti is canon and is too aware of this and the story to enjoy it in canon-universe in fics. And I truly think that's where clerith should thrive easily, because they have an easy imagery for them.
You’ve touched on a topic that I’m quite intrigued by, Eerie. The post-Advent Children fic is a common staple of Cloti fan fiction, and is usually oriented around the premise: how is Cloud going to make things right with Tifa? The best one to date is still Majorie_Franklin’s Harmonies for the Haunted. However, what I’m actually interested in is whether there are any common Clerith interpretations of what could happen post-AC, or if there is a fan-fic of note that aligns well with canon. Could anyone shed some light on this? I think it would be quite telling if the only compelling refuge for the Clerith relationship in fan-works is either in AUs or alternative timelines. By contrast, the reason Majorie_Franklin’s fic works so well is because it doesn’t take any liberties with established canon or the characters themselves. It reads like a natural consequence of everything that came before it.

Also, in my search to appreciate Clerith perspectives I have found Naughty Dog’s Character Art Director, Ashley Swidowski, who has been pretty taken with Clerith over the past year and has shared lots of fan art on Twitter. Here was a unique perspective on the LTD she shared through the lens of the Last of Us the other day:
Ashley Swidowski’s Tweets:
Some shipping communities are really dull in their perception of relationship dynamics. TLoU is a story that shows how messy, dynamic & leggy romantic love can be. It's more complex than loving only one person, unconditionally, forever. Hearts are complex mazes, not linear paths.
I don't think anyone who knows Ellie's story would deny the romantic love she had for Riley. Or that she doesn't love Dina, because she loved Riley. That Riley doesn't still occupy a place in her heart, even when Dina fills so much of it. Do you... see what I'm getting at here??
Original Tweet
 

Graymouse

Pro Adventurer
Hi, long time lurker and new to the forums.



Decided to make an account to comment on this. I’ve seen people use similar statements to conclude that Tifa is not enough for Could (as a lover), to the point that he doesn’t answer her calls and decide to abandon her to feel closer to his true love before dying. To me, it sounds very ill-intentioned.

First, welcome to the forums! I know just what you mean. This of course is just in my opinion of those that think this are either, A: Don't understand Cloud's character at all. Or B: Trying way too hard to fit things into their point of view.

Sometimes it is really frustrating that some people still think that Cloud would be this shallow. There is no way that Cloud would be that shallow of a person to do something like that to Tifa. Especially to someone who he has confirmed his feelings for. Yes, Cloud's guilt can sometimes get in the way of things but he wouldn't out right completely ignore Tifa and the kids and go live alone in Aeirth's church until he dies so he can be reunited with his true love Aerith.

Besides, I could hardly imagine that Tifa would allow any of that to happen. Tifa would beat the living shit of Cloud until he comes to his senses if that were the case.
 

Shadowfox

You look like you need a monkey
Also, in my search to appreciate Clerith perspectives I have found Naughty Dog’s Character Art Director, Ashley Swidowski, who has been pretty taken with Clerith over the past year and has shared lots of fan art on Twitter. Here was a unique perspective on the LTD she shared through the lens of the Last of Us the other day:
Ashley Swidowski’s Tweets:
Original Tweet

Yeah, loving one person in the past doesn't mean that you're locked on to them forever and there can never be room for another. That's the situation that Aerith found herself in at the start of FF7. But I think it's even more complicated in FF7 because Cloud was operating under a false persona when Aerith was alive; a persona that was significantly influenced by Aerith's own first love for whom she still has strong, unresolved feelings. So it's not just that there was a past love; it's also that current feelings are developing that are still heavily under the influence of the past love.

This is an aspect of the Cloud and Aerith relationship that I'm curious to see in the future chapters of the Remake: Aerith having memories of the "past" and now knowing that Cloud is subconsciously putting himself in Zack's place and behaving as he thinks Zack would. How is this going to affect them and the events to come?
 

KindOfBlue

Pro Adventurer
AKA
Blue
Hi, long time lurker and new to the forums.



Decided to make an account to comment on this. I’ve seen people use similar statements to conclude that Tifa is not enough for Could (as a lover), to the point that he doesn’t answer her calls and decide to abandon her to feel closer to his true love before dying. To me, it sounds very ill-intentioned.
Welcome! Definitely not my intention there, as the devs’ statements suggest quite the opposite. Cloud is described as being happy with Tifa to the point where being more happy makes him more afraid of losing what he has because of his guilt. What I was saying is that I can’t really confirm or deny whether or not his previous romantic feelings for Aerith may play a role in his guilt because the devs themselves won’t confirm or deny it. The same can’t be said for Cloud rejecting Tifa for Aerith, which we can definitively say is false because it just does not happen.

I argued earlier that even IF Cloud’s romantic feelings for Aerith are part of his guilt, that really only affirms his romantic feelings for Tifa further. He lost a love interest once already so he doesn’t want to lose another one, especially not the one he’s had feelings for since childhood and already blames himself for almost losing twice. But much like the issue of whether or not Cloud/Tifa are officially boyfriend and girlfriend, I treat the “does Cloud still have romantic feelings for Aerith” question as a maybe/maybe not thing. Hope that clears up the point I was making!

The post-Advent Children fic is a common staple of Cloti fan fiction,
I wish I had something to add to the fanfiction conversation but it’s personally something I don’t get any enjoyment out of, more so if it’s well-written because I’ll know it’s not real no matter how good it is

Here was a unique perspective on the LTD she shared through the lens of the Last of Us the other day:
I wonder if the LTD would even exist if more people displayed this level of maturity

Yes, Cloud's guilt can sometimes get in the way of things but he wouldn't out right completely ignore Tifa and the kids and go live alone in Aeirth's church until he dies so he can be reunited with his true love Aerith.
I’ve mentioned this before but the perception that Cloud cares about nothing except Aerith actually turned me off to his character years before I ever played FF7 myself because I assumed that’s how he was. I was pleasantly surprised to see that it wasn’t the case at all, though some would still argue that he is.

For those people, I just have one question: do they think that’s what Aerith would even want for Cloud especially considering her own history with losing Zack? I think it would make her look hypocritical if she actually did move on from Zack yet Cloud can’t move on from her? But Aerith doesn’t strike me as that character at all especially if she knows something is up between Cloud and Tifa.

This is an aspect of the Cloud and Aerith relationship that I'm curious to see in the future chapters of the Remake:
They’ve piqued my curiosity immensely by having Aerith herself tell Cloud his feelings aren’t real. I know on the surface, Aerith is letting Cloud down easy because she probably knows her fate. But to specifically comment on his feelings not being real, I really hope they address what exactly that means.
 
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Eerie

Fire and Blood
They’ve piqued my curiosity immensely by having Aerith herself tell Cloud his feelings aren’t real.

I must say that's the thing from Remake that made me go "ouch" for cleriths - it seems they largely ignored this though. But she was literally telling the audience that Cloud never loved Aerith, and I mean, that's a bit "ouch". I thought it was as much for the audience than for Cloud, and for sure, this is going to be overplayed by clotis in LTD discussions.

But it's also what makes me think that whatever Cloud feels or felt for Aerith, it's not "romantic love", that it never achieved this status. This is why to me clerith is more a "what if" pairing, but for LTD it's very difficult to discuss because you can't put "what if" everywhere and deny what canon says.
 
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Phantasia

Pro Adventurer
First, welcome to the forums! I know just what you mean. This of course is just in my opinion of those that think this are either, A: Don't understand Cloud's character at all. Or B: Trying way too hard to fit things into their point of view.

Thank you! And totally agree.

They’ve piqued my curiosity immensely by having Aerith herself tell Cloud his feelings aren’t real. I know on the surface, Aerith is letting Cloud down easy because she probably knows her fate. But to specifically comment on his feelings not being real, I really hope they address what exactly that means.

I feel exactly the same. I think this was touched on before here in this thread, but I want to link the video where Aerith's english voice actress reacted to this scene:


She mentions how this sentence, "you can't fall in love with me", ties both characters back stories (and we all know who is the knot in this case). I know she is only the voice actress, and her opinion (if hers at all), is not to be taken as conclusive or anything of the sort. Still, I can't help myself from thinking that she had some sort of "insider explanation" to help her understand the context of the story and better deliver the line. Just some food for thought.
 

eleamaya

Pro Adventurer
She mentions how this sentence, "you can't fall in love with me", ties both characters backstories (and we all know who is the knot in this case). I know she is only the voice actress, and her opinion (if hers at all), is not to be taken as conclusive or anything of the sort. Still, I can't help myself from thinking that she had some sort of "insider explanation" to help her understand the context of the story and better deliver the line.
It's similar to Cody's interview when he explains the scene of Cloud and Aerith in the playground.
"In this scene, Aerith shares with Cloud who her first love was. This triggers a painful flashback of insight Cloud has been experiencing throughout the game. I feel this scene echoes a feeling of safety, understanding, and encouragement of vulnerability seen countless times between Aerith and Cloud." --[x] The two VAs might've been hinted about the Zack's factor revolved around their character.
 
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KindOfBlue

Pro Adventurer
AKA
Blue
But she was literally telling the audience that Cloud never loved Aerith, and I mean, that's a bit "ouch". I thought it was as much for the audience than for Cloud, and for sure, this is going to be overplayed by clotis in LTD discussions.
I dunno if it’s to mean Cloud never loved her necessarily, but perhaps that the foundation of that love is a false assumption of identity. Which I suppose you could argue might as well be the same as not loving somebody in the first place, but I do think Cloud’s feelings are genuine on his part.

The problem, I think, is that those feelings are built on the assumption that Cloud does not fully remember his feelings for Tifa, among other memories that ultimately define who he is as a person. Which is why Aerith’s resolution reminds me so much of the Gold Saucer date in the OG, where she talks about searching for Cloud and wanting to meet him.

Of course, she never does get to meet him while she’s alive. Which wouldn’t be fair to either of them if they were to pursue a relationship while Cloud doesn’t even fully know who he is. And all of this can be discussed without even factoring Zack into the equation, but to that point...

She mentions how this sentence, "you can't fall in love with me", ties both characters back stories (and we all know who is the knot in this case).
Maybe looking at the comments was a mistake but I couldn’t help but notice people seemed to pay more attention to Cloud’s responses and how he’s coming for her and does he get a say and it’s “Cloud’s resolution” and all that, but not much consideration for Aerith’s perspective. Granted, we don’t know how much Aerith (or her VA for that matter) knows but I’m not sure if the comments are just missing the point of what the actor seems to be hinting at or if I’m the one missing the point.

As far as motivation, people seem more focused on Aerith wanting to let Cloud down easy because of her eventual death. Which I won’t say isn’t part of it, but Briana White specifically points to Cloud and Aerith’s backstories, where we know the biggest common factor is Zack. So I’m really curious as to what the remake is trying to establish regarding Cloud and Aerith’s relationship and how Zack factors in, especially when so much of the LTD has centered around whether or not Cloud actually loves Aerith and/or how does Zack influence that romance.

Still, I can't help myself from thinking that she had some sort of "insider explanation" to help her understand the context of the story and better deliver the line. Just some food for thought.
I do remember her mentioning during the Cloud and Aerith scene in the park that she actually did record the name that Aerith speaks to Cloud when she mentions the first guy she loved (she doesn’t actually say what the name is, only that she actually did record it, but we all know who it is and surely she’s aware that everybody else knows too). So I assume she doesn’t know everything but especially with how incredibly subtle the performances are, surely there’s some inside information she has in order to properly inform her direction.

Of course, if we were going by the OG, mentioning Zack wouldn’t matter much in terms of his relationship with Aerith. But this was years before Crisis Core firmly established their relationship, and the game ends with a whole ass alternate ending of Crisis Core in which Zack lives. So what are they planning for Zack and what does it mean for the relationships? Who knows. The devs know their super-horny audience very well.
 
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Dr Frasier Crane

Lv. 25 Adventurer
This is an aspect of the Cloud and Aerith relationship that I'm curious to see in the future chapters of the Remake: Aerith having memories of the "past" and now knowing that Cloud is subconsciously putting himself in Zack's place and behaving as he thinks Zack would. How is this going to affect them and the events to come?
It’s really hard to predict at this point. I still go back and forth on whether Aerith in the dream is another version of Aerith entirely. There’s multiple versions of Sephiroth, so it wouldn’t be a stretch. I’m sure there’s going to be a lot more Zack in the sequel, even if there aren’t flashbacks to Crisis Core or flash-sideways to the Zack-lives timeline. I wonder how much the ghost of Zack will haunt Part 2 in general, starting with the Kalm flashback.
Hi, long time lurker and new to the forums.
Welcome to the party! Us newbies need to stick together!
I wish I had something to add to the fanfiction conversation but it’s personally something I don’t get any enjoyment out of, more so if it’s well-written because I’ll know it’s not real no matter how good it is
A lot of Cloti writing is very ‘blue’ at the moment, that’s for sure - the remake seems to have left a lot of Cloti fans high, dry and in want of a cold shower. However, there is a lot of talent involved in the Cloti community. Sure, the fics aren’t canon, but good writing is always real in the eyes of the reader. (Thanks, Barthes!) Cloud and Tifa’s moments in Kingdom Hearts and Dissidia aren’t relevant to FFVII canon either, but their interactions are real and true to their relationship as it has been depicted in the OG and Advent Children. By contrast, one of the common complaints levied at the Compilation is how out-of-character some of our leads felt across instalments: Aerith in Crisis Core, and Cloud in Advent Children. Really, Cloud in Remake is the most real depiction of Cloud we’ve seen since 1997.
It's similar to Cody's interview when he explains the scene of Cloud and Aerith in the playground.

"In this scene, Aerith shares with Cloud who her first love was. This triggers a painful flashback of insight Cloud has been experiencing throughout the game. I feel this scene echoes a feeling of safety, understanding, and encouragement of vulnerability seen countless times between Aerith and Cloud." --[x]
Off-topic, but Cody really makes for a great Cloud and he’s often on the mark when talking about him, like he is here. I understand people gravitating to John and Brianna’s performances, but Cody absolutely nailed it as Cloud. Really looking forward to seeing him sink his teeth into the meatier parts of Cloud’s character in later instalments.
 
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