SPOILERS LTD Remake — It's like New Coke except ... no, it's exactly like New Coke

[KindOfBlue]

I know practically nothing about Bleach so I got nothing to add there I’m a huge Steins;Gate fan though so I’m glad to see it being brought up

Since I'm already here though, I'll add that I agree with the sentiment that it would be nice if we could finally resolve this specific love triangle. I can't say I wouldn't be at least slightly disappointed if the answer turned out to be Clerith, but still, this is the perfect time to be giving a conclusive answer

Realistically though, what would have to happen in order for the love triangle to be “resolved” in a way that allows Clerith to happen? I figured the fact that it doesn’t happen is part of the appeal, but I guess that depends on what your requirements are for a ship to be considered resolved.

I'm already frustrated enough by Steins;Gate's developers for refusing to resolve its much more blatantly obvious main pairing

I wonder if the animators feel just as frustrated with the devs considering how much Okabe and Kurisu content they added with the movie and the Steins;Gate 0 anime adaptation. But it’s an interesting comparison to make because I feel like at least we know Okabe considers Mayuri as a sister and we know how he canonically feels about Kurisu and vice versa even if they don’t actually go very far (here’s to hoping the new Steins;Gate sequel actually lets these two tsundere idiots progress in their relationship).

Cloud on the other hand is stated to waver between the two yet he doesn’t actually get to choose between them as Sephiroth narrows it down for him. Because of the direction of the story, her death prevents any further development with Cloud unless you buy into the whole “death does not separate them” thing that I see a lot of, or if they straight up just don’t kill her this time.

I think they’d have to either have Cloud’s feelings for Tifa be strictly only existing in his childhood, or clarify that Cloud only liked Aerith when he was under his false persona. The former probably won’t happen based on how the Lifestream scene is described as the moment their mutual feelings are revealed, and the latter is unlikely although that “even if you think you have, it’s not real” line definitely raises my eyebrows.

I mean, I think Cloud still has a soft spot for Aerith even after his true identity re-emerges, but for him to solely be devoted to her would mean ignoring everything about Tifa. Which I think forces the most diehard Clerith shippers into constant defense mode unless if they accept where the story actually goes and what the devs have actually said.

By comparison, Cloti shippers have the benefit of knowing Clerith can’t proceed further, yet some feel they need to completely remove Cloud’s feelings for Aerith as if they’re a threat to Tifa. Partly because some Cleriths do consider those feelings as a threat to Tifa and proof that he actually wants Aerith, even though Cloud never actually picks Aerith over Tifa.

I don’t know where I’m going with this. I guess I’m trying to say it’s hard to declare a “winner” in this ship war when everybody seems to have their own idea of “winning”.

 

[Shadowfox]

Cloud on the other hand is stated to waver between the two yet he doesn’t actually get to choose between them as Sephiroth narrows it down for him. Because of the direction of the story, her death prevents any further development with Cloud unless you buy into the whole “death does not separate them” thing that I see a lot of, or if they straight up just don’t kill her this time.

I think they’d have to either have Cloud’s feelings for Tifa be strictly only existing in his childhood, or clarify that Cloud only liked Aerith when he was under his false persona. The former probably won’t happen based on how the Lifestream scene is described as the moment their mutual feelings are revealed, and the latter is unlikely although that “even if you think you have, it’s not real” line definitely raises my eyebrows.

Regarding Cloud's wavering, I'm of the opinion that it's mostly a big aspect of having player choices. I'm not saying that Cloud himself doesn't care or doesn't have feelings for Aerith/Tifa, because it's obvious that he does feel very deeply for them both before and after the Lifestream. I just think that Cloud, at the time, was not in control of himself, so Real Cloud's own feelings are not necessarily defined by "his" choices at that time. I get that a lot of players were/are invested in Cloud and they treasured the experience of playing as him, so that's likely where the insistence that Cloud's love is dependent on the players come from.

Anyway, I like to say that on matters of the heart, Cloud alone decides when his true self is fully restored and he's capable of making his own decisions. And that's what we got to see in the Lifestream, beneath the Highwind, and in the Compilation.

I don’t know where I’m going with this. I guess I’m trying to say it’s hard to declare a “winner” in this ship war when everybody seems to have their own idea of “winning”.

Just want to take a moment to air a peeve of mine after years of exposure to shipping fandoms, but I personally dislike thinking about relationships as having winners and losers. I think that kind of view carries an element of competition that really shouldn't be what a relationship is about. At worst, people have resorted to some ugly behaviours to try and justify why they want their ship to "win".

 

[KindOfBlue]

Anyway, I like to say that on matters of the heart, Cloud alone decides when his true self is fully restored and he's capable of making his own decisions. And that's what we got to see in the Lifestream, beneath the Highwind, and in the Compilation.

I think Cloud still having some kind of feelings for Aerith post-Lifestream makes sense especially in AC, but if we’re to call that a “win” for Cloud and Aerith, it requires completely ignoring his feelings for Tifa. Unless Cloud straight up says “Tifa, I don’t like you, I want Aerith instead”, it’s not like everything with Tifa magically stops existing.

Yet, if you were to try to make Cloud and Tifa work, you don’t have to ignore Cloud and Aerith even though some people do anyways. If anything, I’d say Cloud and Aerith’s relationship directly affects Cloud and Tifa in a way that creates issues for them in AC but eventually becomes a positive.

So everybody “wins”, right? Thanks in part to Aerith’s intervention in AC, Cloud and Tifa resolve their issues with each other and all is well, right? Should be, but...

I think that kind of view carries an element of competition that really shouldn't be what a relationship is about. At worst, people have resorted to some ugly behaviours to try and justify why they want their ship to "win".

“Winning”. Which brings me to my main point about this LTD. What qualifies as a win? Personally, I don’t consider a ship valid unless the feelings are mutual. So both ships are valid in that sense, but which one “wins”?

Everybody and nobody, I say. Like you, I think the idea of winning and losing is silly. In the end, it’s just shippers projecting their desire to win internet points onto the characters. But for Cloud, was it ever about Aerith versus Tifa?

I do believe there could be romantic subtext in AC but depending on what one is trying to prove, it may not bode well. If one tries to argue that Cloud leaves Tifa in favor of Aerith, well...that straight up doesn’t happen, quite the opposite.

I mean, if we’re to use the ultimanias as the word of God on this topic, then the best chance some people have is to specifically ignore parts that discredit their view. And if you have to do that to prove a point, then I think that’s as close to “losing” as one could get.

 

[Graymouse]

Hey all, it has been a while. I hope that the Holidays and New Year found everyone healthy!

On Topic:

So, I just recently went back to play FF7R. So I was wondering In Chapter 12 "Fight for Survival" I would like to know what Cloud X Aerith's point of view on the line that Aerith says to Tifa, "Follow your Heart." What are your guys interpretation of that statement.

 

[KindOfBlue]

I would like to know what Cloud X Aerith's point of view on the line that Aerith says to Tifa, "Follow your Heart." What are your guys interpretation of that statement.

I’m in the “what the creators say is canon” camp so take that however you will, but I think I’d need to see the Japanese to form an opinion on that. Otherwise, while “follow your heart” could sound romantic, to me it’s probably less about romance and more about Aerith telling Tifa to do what she thinks is the right thing to do.

No, to me the big scene worth talking about in regards to the LTD from that same chapter is when Aerith goes to Seventh Heaven to find Marlene. That look on Aerith’s face when she presumably realizes that Cloud gave Tifa the flower...what could that possibly mean?

 

[Dr Frasier Crane]

@Graymouse - I agree with KindofBlue’s assessment. There’s not enough to go on within the scene alone - if anything there’s a whole bunch of Aerti material going on in this scene with all the handholding and affectionate stares. We should defer to the original Japanese text for any nuance in what Aerith said.

No, to me the big scene worth talking about in regards to the LTD from that same chapter is when Aerith goes to Seventh Heaven to find Marlene. That look on Aerith’s face when she presumably realizes that Cloud gave Tifa the flower...what could that possibly mean?

This is a good one. The flower is something that is referenced and revisited so often that this moment can’t simply be overlooked. The focus on the flower and then Aerith’s reaction to it is a deliberate choice. I think there is an ambiguity to Aerith’s expression - a Mona Lisa smile. And I think that makes Aerith more interesting and richer as a character. I’m sure there is conflict within her: Cloud makes her feel things that she hasn’t felt in a long time, but she also knows that there is something between Cloud and Tifa. Add in her potential powers of foresight (or hindsight!) and it’s really difficult to discern what Aerith’s angle is in a lot of interactions. Sometimes it feels like she’s just having a riot reacquainting herself with old friends. Her first meeting with Tifa in Corneo’s basement is a bit of a giveaway: Aerith speaks with familiarity while Tifa has got her guard on.

This brings me back to Aerith’s resolution scene once again. Did Aerith actually decide to end her pursuit of Cloud? I see that a lot of Clerith fans read that scene positively, but I keep returning to that same line: “Even if you think you have, it’s not real.” It’s just so loaded with meaning and none of it feels particularly good for Clerith relationship. More than happy to be challenged on this reading however. At this point, I’ve been so close to this subject matter these past months that dissenting readings would be a welcome breath of fresh air for me.

 

[Eerie]

Just so you know, we already went through Aerith's line in chapter 12 in JP, and it is indeed "follow your heart" - for once the EN translation is good. There is no doubt that Cloud especially is in Tifa's mind at that moment, so that line is definitely a double entendre - and we, as players, should know it because of the way the reunion between Cloud and Tifa is done, dramatically after a calmer period with Aerith's side of the story at this point.

As for her reaction to the flower on the bar's counter, I also already said it, but it is extremely well done. This is what I wrote about it in my blog:

This is the last important piece that leads to Aerith’s resolution. At this point, she’s already guessed that Tifa was very, very important for Cloud, she’s seen them both being weird, she’s caught Cloud staring down at Tifa. She’s also seen Tifa’s warm side, how friendly she is - Tifa became important for Aerith too, she became an important friend. And suddenly, she stumbles onto something that was almost forgotten - who did Cloud give the flower to? He pretended to not remember, but she knew he was lying, and it hits her - he’s given it to Tifa, of course.

And the camera work at this moment is really neat; i’ve already said it, but Aerith’s feelings at this moment are as blurry as she is shown, as the flower comes in focus. She’s probably hurt a bit, and realises that her first guess “Your girlfriend’s name?” is kind of right and is probably what is going to happen. Remember that in chapter 17, she does tell us that the yellow flowers show her the path, and here while SHE puts one on Cloud’s heart, HE gave it right away to Tifa (and he didn’t even think about it twice nor blinked there, all looking cool while giving a flower to a girl who usually refuses them).

This is what acceptance looks like. Graceful acceptance, may I add. The flower led her here, to save Marlene, and makes her understand where Cloud’s feelings are. She knows the truth, even if Cloud denies - he doesn’t even have a say because he’s already spoken. She knows, and this will lead to her own resolution [...]

To me, while Aerith does have some foresight, she also guesses a lot through the people themselves. The flowers guide her to the people she needs to know, and with her flashfowards, she can guess a lot. This scene is pivotal to Aerith's comprehension and acceptance about Cloud and Tifa, and why she tells him to not fall in love with her in resolution scene. As I already said though, this is not really indicative of if Aerith and Cloud will be able to maintain the status quo in the next game. Even when you fight them, feelings can happen. I guess we'll have to see what happens.

 

[KindOfBlue]

I see that a lot of Clerith fans read that scene positively, but I keep returning to that same line: “Even if you think you have, it’s not real.”

From what I could gather, some people interpret Cloud’s response (“don’t I get a say in this?”, “I’m coming for you”) as a sort of confession on his part because supposedly it’s actually “Cloud’s resolution” and that Tifa’s resolution represents her accepting that Aerith is who he really wants.

Of course, I’m not convinced of any of that at all partly because I think the point of Aerith’s statement is that Cloud doesn’t actually get a say in much of anything as he’s currently a puppet of Jenova who can’t even fully remember who he is.

I do think Cloud has some genuine romantic feelings for Aerith but that scene might be the most blatant suggestion that Cloud’s feelings for her may not be real after all, not entirely at least, and it came directly from her to him. I took it as a sort of reference to the Gold Saucer date where she talks about wanting to meet the real Cloud.

and it is indeed "follow your heart" - for once the EN translation is good.

It’s just that to follow one’s heart can also be used in a non-romantic way (though I don’t think that’s the case here) so I wasn’t sure if the romantic implication of that phrase also exists in Japanese

This scene is pivotal to Aerith's comprehension and acceptance about Cloud and Tifa, and why she tells him to not fall in love with her in resolution scene.

Cloud and Aerith are similar in that they both have two love interests but I think it’s interesting that we never really go deep into the internal conflict of Cloud having two love interests, yet we’ve regularly gotten insight into Aerith’s conflicting feelings between Cloud and Zack.

Maybe she does ultimately accept Cloud over Zack (if Maiden is canon) or maybe she’s still hung up over Zack. Maybe Aerith actually saw Zack’s last stand when we first see him in FF7R (the scene is immediately followed by Aerith looking up with what could be a shocked expression) and so perhaps she sees an opportunity to try to save him?

Either way, I’ve got no doubt that Aerith is perfectly accepting of Cloud and Tifa especially if she knows they have feelings for each other and/or that she’ll die anyways.

As I already said though, this is not really indicative of if Aerith and Cloud will be able to maintain the status quo in the next game. Even when you fight them, feelings can happen. I guess we'll have to see what happens.

I have a theory about all these changes in the story ultimately leading to the events of post-FF7 being prevented, namely some of the stuff that happens in AC like Sephiroth returning and the emergence of the three remnants who we seemingly defeated already (I also have another theory that I’m far less convinced of but curious as to how people might feel, imagine if Jenova was actually manipulating Cloud into falling for Aerith specifically to break him when she dies and maybe even to make Cloud successfully kill her himself as he almost did in the OG).

I don’t see them not getting close anyways even if Aerith does try to distance herself from Cloud, but I wonder if the new direction of the story will allow for Cloud to find peace with himself regarding Aerith and Zack’s deaths during the game rather than falling into depression post-game. Maybe with that and also Sephiroth being defeated permanently, Cloud and Tifa can actually be together in peace. Lord knows they deserve it.

 

[LicoriceAllsorts]

That line , "Even if you do, it's not real," was the thing that made me certain this Aerith is a revenant from an earlier time-line, come back to try to put things right. Did she send herself back, or was she sent by the Planet? The answer will be revealed in a subsequent installment.

 

[eleamaya]

That line, "Even if you do, it's not real," was the thing that made me certain this Aerith is a revenant from an earlier time-line, come back to try to put things right. Did she send herself back, or was she sent by the Planet? The answer will be revealed in a subsequent installment.

I come to the conclusion that Lifestream simply has "memories of future" from souls who return to Planet next year, 2 years, 50 years, even 500 years later. Aerith is always supposed to have some knowledge about what Lifestream tells her as Half Cetra. But till Temple of Ancient, it's just a glimpse of the Planet future (or future event) while she may know more about her own future that both are taken piece by piece by Whispers. Meanwhile, Sephiroth has more knowledge than her because he had absorbed part of Lifestream since the day he fell in Nibel Reactor.

 

[KindOfBlue]

Before I forget, these videos seem to have gotten a bit of a buzz and if anybody actually has time to go through them, I’d be interested to know what your thoughts are

 

[Eerie]

I don't think we're seeing an Aerith who is a revenant from other time. She does get info from the Lifestream, and she did definitely see at least partly Zack's Last Stand. This is the flashback that made her change her opinion and create the singularity. It goes way beyond what she was able to do in the OG, yet at the very end, she seems to know that she won't see Zack again - her face is full of sorrow, and her words "I hate the sky" are very indicative of Zack's fate, at least in their own reality. What really interests me with this scene is that she is aware now that Zack saved Cloud, so Cloud knows him. I wonder what kind of information she's going to be able to retrieve from Cloud. She seems in the first game to have not known Zack's fate up until the flashfoward she got, so she could not move on until then. I wonder if that is going to play some role next.

Also I will not click on any of those clips, because IMHO Cloud does not *love* Aerith right now. He had developing feelings, right, but calling them love is far-fetched.

 

[Dr Frasier Crane]

Before I forget, these videos seem to have gotten a bit of a buzz and if anybody actually has time to go through them, I’d be interested to know what your thoughts are

The “Trigger Warning” in the title of the first video gives me great confidence that these videos are going to be argued in good-faith.

I’ll report back on my findings...

 

[Dr Frasier Crane]

The “Trigger Warning” in the title of the first video gives me great confidence that these videos are going to be argued in good-faith.

I’ll report back on my findings...

Apologies for double-posting, but I did promise to report back on the above. I’ve only watched the first video, titled ‘Why Cloud loves Aerith’. I’m not sure I’m going to do a write-up of the rest, but I’ll probably check them out.

A few notes before I abridge the video’s main points: the video isn’t voiced! I was hoping to listen to it while working, so let the record show that I went above and beyond for you all in my pursuit of a pro-Clerith perspective. The video, as with a lot of Clerith stuff, smacks of anti-Tifa vibes. I think this attitude summed up perfectly in one of the quotes that closed the LTD essay: [in my own words] “for Clerith to be possible, first you need to bring down Tifa. While for Cloti to work, you can just let it be.”

So here’s a summary of the main points (with sporadic commentary, but only in instances where I couldn’t help myself):

1. Cloud accepts a date with Aerith as payment
2. Cloud tries to act cool in front of Aerith
3. Cloud doesn’t want Aerith to know he gave the flower to another woman
4. Cloud doesn’t want Aerith to think that Tifa is his girlfriend
5. Cloud takes an interest in the flowers / what they’re saying
6. Cloud dreams of his mother telling him to get an older girlfriend
7. Cloud’s heart skips a beat (according the the chapter logs)
8. He cries we he ‘remembers’ Aerith in the City of the Ancients
9. Cloud is curious about Aerith’s past love life
10. Cloud finds reasons not to part with Aerith (before they go to Wall Market)
11. Cloud is overprotective of Aerith
12. Cloud is stunned by Aerith in her red dress (by comparison Cloud is not impressed by Tifa in any of her dresses)
13. He dances for Aerith (Cloud was happy to forget about saving Tifa but relents when Aerith encourages him to dance. There’s also a Toriyama quote that says the song is about a romance between two people heating up - but surely this could be about Cloud and Andrea?)
14. Cloud’s decision to save Aerith is the first time he chooses a mission for himself
15. Cloud pleads with Barret to take Aerith to safety
16. In Tifa’s resolution scene Tifa is sad and is alluding to Cloud reuniting with Aerith (?)
17. Aerith’s resolution scene (...is there? The author didn’t really make a point here except pull-up a Nojima quote that old players would interpret Aerith’s lines differently than new players would)
18. In the Japanese script, when they rescue Aerith, Cloud barks to Hojo “I am going to make you return Aerith [to me]”

I was told that when writing an essay, it’s good to revisit the question or title to ensure you’re actually giving an answer to what has been asked. To be a pedant: I would say that many of these points are better evidence of how Cloud expresses love, or affection, for Aerith, and not why. For example: I love my wife because she is good, she is my rock and she brings out the best in me. However, I often express my love for my wife by dancing in the most awful manner possible - because I know it makes her happy.

Anyway, it was interesting to see a contrasting perspective on the ole’ triangle. I don’t agree with quite a bit of it, and ultimately it confirms something that has been taking form in my mind for a while now: I think a lot of people that like Clerith like it for the dynamic (what a shock, I know!), the aesthetics, and the manners in which they communicate. He was punk, she did ballet and all that good stuff. By contrast, I like the Cloti relationship because of how it uneasy and subversive it is. I had never seen a player character suddenly declare: “I’m quitting the quest to save the world, gang. This vegetable in the wheelchair is most important thing to me.” It was an act of such love and it impressed me so much. And then, just a few scenes later, in the Lifestream, you learn that Cloud had felt that same devotion for Tifa, too. At his core, this wannabe tough-guy, had wanted to impress the girl next door. As someone who loves a good love story, Cloud and Tifa really do share one of my favourites.

 

[a_apple 2.0]

The ending, the flower scene in the bar, Aeriths resolution scene

The holy trinity of events that made me bet my money on Cloud/Tifa being endgame

 

[Torrie]

Before I forget, these videos seem to have gotten a bit of a buzz and if anybody actually has time to go through them, I’d be interested to know what your thoughts are

I remember seeing these videos before. I had the impression that the author is trying REALLY hard to convince the viewer. And yeah, the second video spends half of its screen time to... explain Tifa's motives, so I guess @Dr Frasier Crane expressed it perfectly. I mean I understand why the creator did it that way ('cause I-I-I want it tha-a-at way~ ) and whereas some points about Cloud's psychological background are valid and accurate, some other bits and pieces feel far-fetched.

Ep. 2 summary:

• Cloud insisting on "getting paid" and "needing a raise" is in fact his defense mechanism, like how lonely people say they're isolated by choice. He used to be isolated from Nibelheim kids, later on he is rejected by Avalanche, then Elmyra tells him to leave, so the pattern repeats again and again, but the video points out that Aerith is perceptive, and is first to open up to him, and doesn't reject him straight away.
• Zack is a Clerith shipper because his existence brings these two people together (LMAO)
• Aerith to Cloud is someone who makes him feel more sincere and less isolated.

Ep. 3 summary:

• Half of the video is dedicated to Aerith's background based on the latest story by Nojima "The Investigation Unit Within The Painting" and the novella "The Kids Are Alright".
• Eligor is feeding on her fear of abandonment and loss.
• Aerith is attracted by something that Zack never had: awkwardness, vulnerability, seriousness.
• Basically, Cloud to Aerith is an oxytocin bomb and evokes the desire to care about him.

Intermission summary:

• Cloud doesn't absorb anything from dying Zack as indicated by the absence of Jenova flashes.
• He creates his SOLDIER persona at the moment he is found by Tifa at the station, mixing her memories and expectations with his ideals and what they both knew of Zack and his achievements.
• The video brings up Cloud's own explanation from the OG how he got lost in the illusion he'd created.
• Examples of Cloud behaving differently from what Zack would have done (e.g. he remembers Tifa and doesn't remember Aerith, acts cool and contained, dreams about Nibelheim and not Gongaga etc etc)

Leaving Ep. 4 to you so far

 

[KindOfBlue]

So the fourth video is basically about how Cloud and Aerith’s personalities compliment one another. A lot of it is just explaining what’s on screen but the main points are:

1. Aerith’s intuition compliments Cloud’s difficulty communicating with people and helps him work better in social situations
2. Aerith’s persistence compliments Cloud’s social awkwardness and helps push him to open up
3. Cloud’s protectiveness compliments Aerith’s sometimes carefree attitude and allows her to loosen up around him
4. Cloud’s observant nature compliments Aerith shielding her sadness with a smile, allowing him to help her express herself

Honestly a surprisingly mature video...aside from a handful of remarks, it lacks a lot of the character assassination and leaps in logic that you can typically expect with shipping analysis. You see, people? It IS possible to appreciate one ship without trying to diminish the other.

I actually agree with a lot of what’s in the video. I think where the conversations start to get obnoxious for me is when people then take those observations and conclude stuff like “this is why Cloud only cares about Aerith”, or “this is why Tifa is always second choice after Aerith” or “this is why only Cloud x Aerith is canon”.

I think the remake was exceptionally well in handling Cloud’s interactions with all the other characters even more so than the OG. Even characters outside of Cloud get some great moments especially Barret/Marlene and Tifa/Aerith. So I guess one could similarly break down Cloud’s other relationships but it’s all pretty straightforward that I don’t think any of this really requires much deep analysis.

To bounce off of some observations from you guys:

This is the flashback that made her change her opinion and create the singularity.

I really hope this is the case and that we get some confirmation of it. I like the idea of Sephiroth tempting Aerith with the prospect of Zack being alive and using that to further his own goal of defying his fate.

Aerith’s naïveté in thinking she could take on Sephiroth ultimately gets her killed in the OG, but depending on how much she knows in the remake I could see why some may consider that side of her character to be made obsolete by her having some sort of awareness of the future.

On the other hand, her impulsive decision to defy fate may end up hurting everybody even more in the end, and I think that could be a clever way to recontexualize that aspect of her character.

“for Clerith to be possible, first you need to bring down Tifa. While for Cloti to work, you can just let it be.”

And because Aerith is out of the running after she dies, the closest thing to a “win” is proving that Cloud only has romantic feelings for her. But we know that to not be the case from the devs describing the Lifestream and under the Highwind scenes to be the moments in which Cloud and Tifa’s feelings are realized, and that Cloud is actually happy living with Tifa aside from his bout with depression.

Are Cloud and Tifa officially boyfriend and girlfriend? We don’t know, the nature of their feelings for each other is actually a big spoiler so of course it’s not advertised front-and-center. Do they canonically have romantic feelings, express those feelings mutually, live together, and consider themselves family though? Yes. Do Cloud and Aerith go as far as Cloud and Tifa in their relationship? No, they never get the chance to. But do they still like each other though? Yes. More importantly, do Cloud’s feelings for one woman invalidate his feelings for the other? Big fat NO.

It’s hard to argue against Cloud and Tifa progressing further than Cloud and Aerith because that’s quite literally what happens in the story, so the argument then becomes “well, if Aerith was alive, Tifa wouldn’t have a chance” but how do we prove that? The challenge for some is that most if not all of the standards Cloud x Aerith meet to be considered canon, Cloud x Tifa also fulfill and then some. So I say either they’re both canon, or neither of them are.

Cloud doesn't absorb anything from dying Zack as indicated by the absence of Jenova flashes.

I don’t know if this is a developer oversight but I wish more people would point out that Cloud actually does remember certain parts of the Nibelheim incident that neither he nor Tifa were actually present to witness, namely what occurs inside the mako reactor (as Cloud and Tifa were both outside) and what occurs inside the Shinra mansion.

Does this mean Cloud has all of Zack’s memories and his personality? No, but given Jenova’s explicit memory powers, I wouldn’t dismiss the idea of Cloud having at least some of Zack’s memories. “But why doesn’t Cloud remember X like Zack would?” For the same reason he only remembers some of his own memories, other memories are being suppressed by Jenova and from a meta POV, the writers can conveniently pick and choose whatever Cloud remembers for the sake of the plot.

 

[Torrie]

1. Aerith’s intuition compliments Cloud’s difficulty communicating with people and helps him work better in social situations
2. Aerith’s persistence compliments Cloud’s social awkwardness and helps push him to open up
3. Cloud’s protectiveness compliments Aerith’s sometimes carefree attitude and allows her to loosen up around him
4. Cloud’s observant nature compliments Aerith shielding her sadness with a smile, allowing him to help her express herself

Honestly a surprisingly mature video...aside from a handful of remarks, it lacks a lot of the character assassination and leaps in logic that you can typically expect with shipping analysis. You see, people? It IS possible to appreciate one ship without trying to diminish the other.

Yeah, I had the same impression as if the author was getting more mature in their statements the further they were going with their analysis. But the main points above bring me to an important question: do people see these complementary personality traits as romantic by default? Or do they color them romantic because they want to? To me, they can be found in so many strong friendships, and the fact that Aerith and Cloud are friends is I think undeniable. Well, as a desperate Zakkura shipper, I could write long essays about Zack and Cloud complementing each other like a jigsaw puzzle, which would be totally valid but canonically not romantic in the slightest despite how much I want it to be so, but that's a different story.

Are Cloud and Tifa officially boyfriend and girlfriend? We don’t know, the nature of their feelings for each other is actually a big spoiler so of course it’s not advertised front-and-center.

Interestingly, I sometimes come across fanfiction or fanart (usually post-AC) where someone asks Tifa if she and Cloud are serious because he lives in her apartment, to which Tifa says with a smile that it's either complicated, or difficult to explain, or it's a very special relationship. I think there is some truth to it, but AC has been discussed so many times throughout the forum, so we're not bringing it up again, no.

I wouldn’t dismiss the idea of Cloud having at least some of Zack’s memories. “But why doesn’t Cloud remember X like Zack would?” For the same reason he only remembers some of his own memories, other memories are being suppressed by Jenova and from a meta POV, the writers can conveniently pick and choose whatever Cloud remembers for the sake of the plot.

Well observed!

 

[KindOfBlue]

do people see these complementary personality traits as romantic by default? Or do they color them romantic because they want to?

A bit of both, I think. We know from the devs own words that both Aerith and Tifa are written as love interests for Cloud, even if he only gets to be with one in the end. I think people misinterpret the dual-romance approach as “you can pick one and ignore the other” when really, I’d go as far as arguing they both have to exist and compliment each other for the story to really work (hence why I don’t like the affection mechanics in both OG and remake).

Of course, compatibility is something that is definitely not exclusive to romantic relationships. If you wanted to look for such parallels between other characters, you could. You could even interpret other relationships to be romantic like Zack and Cloud, or my personal favorite Cloud x Marle (the true best girl). But if we’re to use the devs’ words as a metric for which relationships are intended to be considered romantic, it’s only ever been Tifa and Aerith sorry Jessie.

to which Tifa says with a smile that it's either complicated, or difficult to explain, or it's a very special relationship.

The funny thing is I bet if we got a non optional scene of Cloud and Tifa kissing, that would be enough to “canonize” the relationship for general audiences even if they never actually say that they’re boyfriend and girlfriend. And yet, would that really change what we already know about them? I think all it does is it just leaves less room for imagination, which I’m sure only the worst of shippers will have a problem with because it takes away that security blanket of “they never did X, therefore they cannot be a couple”.

Well observed!

Thanks y’know, they COULD actually address whether or not Cloud’s feelings are influenced by Zack if they wanted to. I personally think it’s possible at the most but I don’t treat it as a fact. If it turns out that’s what Aerith meant when she said Cloud falling in love with her is not real, I’m sure the internet will respond to that in a civil and rational manner, right?

 

[eleamaya]

1. Aerith’s intuition compliments Cloud’s difficulty communicating with people and helps him work better in social situations
2. Aerith’s persistence compliments Cloud’s social awkwardness and helps push him to open up
3. Cloud’s protectiveness compliments Aerith’s sometimes carefree attitude and allows her to loosen up around him
4. Cloud’s observant nature compliments Aerith shielding her sadness with a smile, allowing him to help her express herself

This!
Actually, I support Cloud and Aerith's compatibility by Nojima saying "perhaps things went well with Aerith" but like any relationship, ofc they would still have their own issue, and this issue is different from Cloti, as Nojima also explained. But no matter how compatible they are, the canon story remains the same, it's Tifa with whom Real Cloud definitely has mutual feelings.

Do Cloud and Aerith go as far as Cloud and Tifa in their relationship? No, they never get the chance to.
But do they still like each other though? Yes.
More importantly, do Cloud’s feelings for one woman invalidate his feelings for the other? Big fat NO.

In my opinion, Cloud's feeling to Aerith is up to interpretation, it has no equal canon validation as Cloti. Most Cloti shippers may firmly oppose the idea and as I observe on Twitter, their degree to interpret Cloud's feeling is even various from Cloud having no romantic feeling at all to Cloud being attracted/infatuated. But personally, I have no problem if Cloud loved Aerith romantically as well. Many Clerith shippers in JP are also like that because "Cloud and Tifa confirm their feeling match" is undeniable for them as they could read Ultimania.

 

[KindOfBlue]

Aerith overall gets along pretty well with everybody and I don’t mean that to try to downplay her compatibility with Cloud but I think she was pretty much designed to be the perfect girl. I also think the appeal of her with Cloud is how idealized and Disney-like their relationship seems to be at least until you learn it’s not going where it seems to be going due to Aerith’s death and Cloud’s mental state. And I think by going in that direction, the story sort of amplifies the realism of the relationships because life really isn’t a Disney movie.

In my opinion Cloud's feeling to Aerith is up to interpretation, it has no equal canon validation as Cloti. Most Cloti shippers may firmly oppose the idea but personally, I have no problem if Cloud loved Aerith romantically as well.

Yeah, we know Cloud likes Aerith but we never get any clear indication of how those feelings compare to his feelings for Tifa and my take is that it ultimately doesn’t matter. I actually think Cloud liking Aerith is necessary to build up to Tifa, especially considering what happens in Advent Children. I think whether Cloud still likes Aerith romantically during AC is up to debate but either way, I think his feelings for Aerith are directly connected to his feelings for Tifa and not in the way people think.

Some people say Cloud rejects Tifa because he’s depressed over just wanting to be with Aerith, but the devs say he’s happy with Tifa yet grows afraid of losing that happiness because of his guilt over Aerith and Zack. So I say because he already lost a woman that he had feelings for before, now that he’s happy living with another woman who he’s liked since childhood, he thinks he’ll mess up and lose her too.

And to make matters worse for Cloud, he already blames himself for Tifa almost dying twice when they fell off Mt. Nibel as kids and then later when Sephiroth destroyed Nibelheim. Of course Cloud feels like he can’t protect Tifa, especially when suffering from geostigma. But through both his assurance from Aerith that he can forgive himself and his assurance from Tifa that he doesn’t have to fight alone, he finds peace and returns home to Tifa.

It’s a shame they don’t go more in-depth with the romance angle and how both romances play off each other because there’s some golden opportunities for great character moments that we miss like “Case of Tifa” from On the Way to a Smile.

 

[Eerie]

I don't think that real Cloud loves Aerith romantically. He calls Aerith "Mother" in AC/C, there's a reason for it, it's because she triggers that kind of motherly feelings at that point. I do think that in the OG, the fake Cloud was falling for Aerith. And I do think he remembers that and his feelings towards her must be complicated, especially since he failed to save her and the events leading to her death, and also because she was Zack's beloved girlfriend. Again, something he aknowledged at the end of ACC by putting his sword in Aerith's bed flowers in the church - which screams to me that he's past her.

However we must not forget that in the OG, fake!Cloud as I call him was ALSO falling for Tifa. There's a reason why you can flirt with her, you can have a date at the GS with her, it's because she is also a love interest. When the Ultimania describe him wavering between the two girls, it's not the whole game, it's before the Lifestream scene. Once his whole persona is back, whoever you flirted with before has no bearing on his feelings.

Because True!Cloud, has always been fully about Tifa. There's a reason the Lifestream scene is where they discover their feelings for each other. It's not "Cloud's past feelings", it's his feelings still. Something that Jenova could not access to to manipulate him because he's buried and hidden them - because they still are *that* important to him. And to me, Cloud's always been in love with Tifa, even as a little boy - his way of acting screams that, because well, he was a little boy. When he comes back, he's still about Tifa, hiding in shame despite her looking for him everywhere. And then, he's taken by Hojo. In the course of the OG, he was attracted to another girl for less than one month, compared to how he was about Tifa for the rest of his life, from a little boy into adulthood... I think a lot of people forget or dismiss this, because when you look at the whole picture, it's very clear that his feelings for Tifa don't and can't compare to his feelings for Aerith, whatever he felt.

And I think that Remake will make sure that we can't forget about this point, especially since Aerith's death and the Lifestream scene will probably be the very high points of two different games this time around.

 

[Dr Frasier Crane]

Loving the responses that everyone is sharing. And a massive thanks to @Torrie and @KindOfBlue for providing further summaries. I’m glad to see the author’s arguments matured over the course of their videos. Ive only just finished digesting number 2, but I’m looking forward to getting through the rest. If the author does see this discussion by chance, I hope they’re aware that we’re discussing their efforts with respect and in good-faith.

Unfortunately, I’m a bit pressed for time today, so I’m going to share the write-up I’ve done of video number two, and then I’ll come back later with more thoughtful analysis. However, I would like to share some of my immediate reactions now: I have a lot of problems with the perspective the author takes on Tifa and her relationship with Cloud and vice versa; the broad-strokes about Cloud’s experiences with exclusion are interesting; the demands for payment as a defence mechanism is a great point; all the moment to moment Cloud and Aerith stuff is sweet and I don’t have any objections; the Zack take is counter-productive for the Clerith worldview; and while interesting, I disagree with some fundamental parts of the argument being presented.

Here are my notes, most taken verbatim from the video itself:

Video title: Signs of a Complicit Relationship - What Aerith means to Cloud [OG & Remake Spoilers]

1. In Cloud’s mind, Tifa is a childhood friend, however his memories say differently. Tifa has always been an important character in Cloud’s story and an important person to Cloud himself. That being said, it was not a harmonious relationship. Tifa herself was wrong about her recollections of their past. Cloud remembers not being included in Tifa’s group. And, in his denial of this exclusion, he calls them all stupid. He then admits that he was excluded and he actually wanted to be included. In response, he pretended that he was special. As such, he developed feelings for Tifa as his need for acceptance grew.
2. “When Cloud was a young child he was isolated from those around his age, and so he tried convincing himself that he must be special. As such, Tifa was important to him - this childhood awakening of love is revealed in the Lifestream.” P.21 FF 25th Memorial Ultimania Vol 2.
3. Tifa’s mother died, and she wanted to see her again. She got into an accident and Cloud was unable to save her. Cloud was blamed for the incident. He also blamed himself. Cloud resolved to join SOLDIER and called Tifa out to the well to tell her about it. When Cloud meets Tifa, he still has his superiority complex, but he also has a determination to be stronger. This scene also marks the beginning of Tifa’s interest in Cloud.
4. “Although Cloud has been holding favour for Tifa earlier, Tifa’s interest in him didn’t begin until the time of exchanging the promise. That may have been due to the loneliness caused by her surrounding friends leaving one after the other, but more than that, it seems largely due to the promise he made to become her hero.” P.25 FFVII Ultimania Omega
5. So “young Cloud” had favour for Tifa and wanted to be accepted by her, while Tifa grew feelings for Cloud as the hero who would come and save her.
6. In the remake, it seems that not even adult Cloud cannot escape isolation. [Barret kicks Cloud out of the Avalanche party.] Okay, it makes sense that Cloud is just a hired merc and would be asked to leave, but the way it parallels with his childhood can’t be a coincidence, right? [In the footage of the video Barret says: “When the job’s done, we’re done. Your words!” And Tifa says: “Don’t take this the wrong way, but right now, I need to spend time with the gang.”]
7. [Cloud is rehired by Avalanche following Jessie’s injury] Anyway it’s clear that “getting paid” is Cloud’s defence mechanism. Like how lonely people say they are isolated by choice.
8. We finally get back to Aerith [...]
9. [Abridging the final main points: Aerith’s mum excludes Cloud, asking him to leave. Aerith wants to keep Cloud around, and even says “I want to spend more time with you.” Aerith and Cloud have a heart-to-heart in the playground and she talks about her ex.]
10. Zack is truly a Clerith shipper. His existence brings these two people closer together. And no, Zack is a great guy. He will truly be happy that these two people he cares about found each other.
11. [In Aerith’s resolution scene, which the author states is instead Cloud’s] We see Cloud assert himself for the first time against someone’s seeming rejection of him. Not only does he not accept what Aerith says, he insists on taking her back.

 

[Eerie]

Cloud remembers not being included in Tifa’s group. And, in his denial of this exclusion, he calls them all stupid.

I just want to say, this is a mistranslation. Cloud excluded himself from the others wilfully, the others did not exclude him. This change a lot of perspective on Tifa as a kid and how Cloud thought himself better than the other kids. That's the reason why I think he already was in love with Tifa - he was acting like a little jealous brat because other guys were close to her, so he had to pretend to be better than them as a mechanism.

 

[Dr Frasier Crane]

I just want to say, this is a mistranslation. Cloud excluded himself from the others wilfully, the others did not exclude him. This change a lot of perspective on Tifa as a kid and how Cloud thought himself better than the other kids. That's the reason why I think he already was in love with Tifa - he was acting like a little jealous brat because other guys were close to her, so he had to pretend to be better than them as a mechanism.

Yeah, this is going to factor into my response, but if we take both the OG and the Remake into account, which the video does too, and accurate translations of the OG’s text, Tifa has never purposefully excluded Cloud. Cloud has frequently excluded himself - which is underlined by Barret’s comment in my previous reply: “When the job’s done, we’re done. Your words!” Cloud acted like an arsehole to Barret, and Barret responded in kind. Do Barret’s past transgressions count against his relationship with Cloud as Tifa’s alleged transgressions do? Should we not see Barret’s resolution scene as a wonderful moment of progress where these stubborn idiots finally become friends? As for Tifa, the Remake has already clarified that she wanted to include Cloud when they were children - in Chapter 1 of all places: