SPOILERS LTD Remake — It's like New Coke except ... no, it's exactly like New Coke

[Eerie]

If you read carefully (which I don't think you did) I was telling Eerie that Cloud is real the whole time

I talked about his mannerisms. Everyone knows here that I didn't ship anything in the OG before the Lifestream scene because I thought Cloud was an arsehole and I didn't understand why both girls were after him. This is nothing new, the Lifestream scene redefines the character "Cloud Strife". Cloud Strife before and after the Lifestream scene in the OG are very different, especially if we take the Midgar scene.

That doesn't mean that he's fake or whatever, that means that he doesn't act like he'd do if he was fully himself. Aerith laments this in their GS date. She knows that for all that she fell for him, they cannot build anything as long as he's messed up like this. This is doubly true for the Remake Aerith, who undoubtly know that she's going to die.

Also in Remake, he doesn't lose his hard edge only when he meets with Aerith and spends time with her; they have changed that from the OG. Now you can clearly see him doing that with Avalanche and Tifa prior to chapter 8. Heck he even gets Barret's approval before that.

 

[Shadowfox]

I though it was pretty clear in the OG that though Cloud was real, he was mentally someone else. I definitely recall lots of Ultimania books describing him as having formed a false personality with the Jenova cells in him -- that false persona being slapped together out of the things he'd seen and heard from Zack and mixed it with his own desires, and then he behaved as if that false persona was really him. He was only truly restored to his real self in the Lifestream.

 

[Maidenofwar]

Hmm, I don't know about the remake. Added with what Eerie mentioned with getting Barret's approval there is scene in the new ending that was added with the new DLC with Cloud and Barret where there is banter and Cloud gently tease Barret. Definitely not the same arsehole Cloud from the OG.

 

[Eerie]

I've said it plenty of times, but with the OG they had one game to show the SOLDIER Cloud (fake persona) and real Cloud. It was the climax of the story, and in one game, we'd get around all of this.

With Remake they don't have such leisure. They only have one game, and they cannot have Cloud act like a jerk for 2, maybe 3 games before revealing his true persona. That would be a disaster. This is what they use the LTD for now; they show his true persona around Tifa, and his fake one around Aerith. But it doesn't mean he's a jerk with Aerith. Not anymore, that is dropped as soon as you see him in the first chapters, getting around Tifa, Avalanche trio, Barret... Even if you do see him try to put on a facade, you can also see that he's someone who is *nice* to other people.

One of these days I'm going to write a huge arsed LTD rant, you'll just not know where that came from (probably some shippers being annoying on Twitter, from both sides may I add lol).

 

[LNK]

I've only got to see a small part of the LTD for maybe two years. It's also only on this forum. I'll never understand why both sides have to try and put down one side, just to prop the other up though. In the end, Cloud loved Tifa and ended up with her. Did Cloud love Aerith? Maybe. If anything, he definitely had feelings for her. She died though

 

[eleamaya]

Cloud is very secretive about his own feeling. Zack is his bestfriend but Cloud didn't even tell him when Zack asked about Tifa, let alone to those who are just new acquaintances like Jessie and Aerith. His feeling for Tifa is only shown in Lifestream sequence as the player & Tifa read into his mind and he confessed it under Highwind without words. This behavior made Tifa doubt and question him "Do you love me?" a year later.
So, if he had some feelings for Aerith, with her death, I guess we would never know since he couldn't confess it and the devs also don't want to explain and just leave it vague. Nojima even just mentioned "perhaps..." to describe it.
Personally, I dont mind if Cloud loved Aerith romantically, too and it can exist in our shipping preference... but the endgame pairing is crystal clear. It's Cloti.

 

[Tetsujin]

Isn't this the remake only version of the LTD? People in here still talking about OG and compilation stuff

 

[Odysseus]

Isn't this the remake only version of the LTD? People in here still talking about OG and compilation stuff

Tres' experiment with splitting it up into multiple sub threads failed lol. That's just not how people think, they're always going to use all evidence available.

 

[LNK]

Remake shows even more of a push towards Cloud/Tifa having feelings towards each other anyway

 

[KindOfBlue]

Even in the OG, pre-Lifestream Cloud had some semblance of having a personality. I think the language some people use isn’t always clear when talking about how his mental state affects his relationships. It’s not that what Cloud had with Aerith wasn’t real (though those are her words), it’s that it’s built on the premise that Cloud’s true personality, memories and feelings for Tifa are being suppressed so it isn’t fair to neither Cloud nor Aerith that they build something together from that. Aerith herself seems to recognize this (Gold Saucer date, FF7R resolution), and that’s not to say that they couldn’t have been together, they just don’t get the chance. That’s the whole point.

There’s nothing about either relationship that cancels the other out, but because one does outlast the other, it creates this attitude of having to diminish the “opposition” as much as possible. I do blame SE themselves to a degree for not making Cloud’s feelings more clear particularly with Advent Children, but we’d have much less to debate if people could separate their preferences from what actually happens in the story, accept the story for what it is, and still like what they like without attacking other people and creating falsehoods.

 

[Eerie]

Tres' experiment with splitting it up into multiple sub threads failed lol. That's just not how people think, they're always going to use all evidence available.

It doesn't help that Remake makes several references to the OG either :p

it’s that it’s built on the premise that Cloud’s true personality, memories and feelings for Tifa are being suppressed so it isn’t fair to neither Cloud nor Aerith that they build something together from that. Aerith herself seems to recognize this (Gold Saucer date, FF7R resolution)

I didn't feel it that way at all, neither from her GS speech, neither from Remake. I don't feel that it has to do with it, although there are slight differences between the two. In the OG, Aerith mentions this not because of Tifa, but because she knows that they cannot build a true relationship when he's not himself. She doesn't know him, so she doesn't know his feelings for Tifa at all there, she is speaking for herself and for Cloud, because she feels that something is wrong with him and he needs to resolve it before being able to be with someone. For the player, it's a hint at what's to come.

In Remake, it's different because she has understood Cloud and Tifa's relationship by the time this scene happens; she knows that not only it's not possible to build a true relationship with how messed up he is, but also that he does love someone else. So instead of telling him she wants to meet the real him, she warns him and herself to not fall for each other. IMHO, her warning was not only for Cloud (and the player), but also for herself. The situation is way too messy and difficult to handle. Usually girls prefer to walk out from such situations because it's a one-way to become heartbroken. Especially since I think Aerith has guessed that they will become an item. But I don't think it's about fairness; rather it's about recognising that once he'll be himself again, his heart will be filled by another girl. This is why she tells him it's "his imagination". Every time I see that scene, I know cleriths love it and I'm grateful they do, but I feel doom for Aerith and clerith. Hearing how it's all his imagination is hard. It's her telling him that those feelings aren't true and will disappear, that his fake persona is making up a love story that isn't. If this is supposed to convey the devs' message about clerith, then it's really harsh, imho. But I still think cleriths will get more scenes to come. It's in the OG, it will be there in Remake too.

 

[KindOfBlue]

It doesn't help that Remake makes several references to the OG either :p



I didn't feel it that way at all, neither from her GS speech, neither from Remake. I don't feel that it has to do with it, although there are slight differences between the two. In the OG, Aerith mentions this not because of Tifa, but because she knows that they cannot build a true relationship when he's not himself. She doesn't know him, so she doesn't know his feelings for Tifa at all there, she is speaking for herself and for Cloud, because she feels that something is wrong with him and he needs to resolve it before being able to be with someone. For the player, it's a hint at what's to come.

In Remake, it's different because she has understood Cloud and Tifa's relationship by the time this scene happens; she knows that not only it's not possible to build a true relationship with how messed up he is, but also that he does love someone else. So instead of telling him she wants to meet the real him, she warns him and herself to not fall for each other. IMHO, her warning was not only for Cloud (and the player), but also for herself. The situation is way too messy and difficult to handle. Usually girls prefer to walk out from such situations because it's a one-way to become heartbroken. Especially since I think Aerith has guessed that they will become an item. But I don't think it's about fairness; rather it's about recognising that once he'll be himself again, his heart will be filled by another girl. This is why she tells him it's "his imagination". Every time I see that scene, I know cleriths love it and I'm grateful they do, but I feel doom for Aerith and clerith. Hearing how it's all his imagination is hard. It's her telling him that those feelings aren't true and will disappear, that his fake persona is making up a love story that isn't. If this is supposed to convey the devs' message about clerith, then it's really harsh, imho. But I still think cleriths will get more scenes to come. It's in the OG, it will be there in Remake too.

I mean you basically agreed with me, Cloud’s memories and personality being suppressed is at the root of everything

 

[BoxFBall]

I guess I don't get why this is such a big argument since I just played FF7 for the first time with the remake but I really don't see why this is an argument still. No matter how you approach it all roads in Cloud's love life lead to Tifa. Even if Cloud did love Aerith as his true love guess what she's maggot food bro that ship is dead in the water sinking very fast as soon as Sephiroth does his thing.

Besides weren't Tifa and Aerith friends? If my wife died I wouldn't be doing the nasty with her friends less than a month after she died I'm sorry if you really love someone you aren't about to hook up with their friends immediately after they die, that's fucked up man.

 

[Maidenofwar]

Zack being dead didn't stop Zerith shippers and it won't stop them if either Zack dies again in the Remake or if Aerith dies first before he does again. It won't stop Cloti shippers either if either Tifa or Cloud dies. You'll never catch me saying Cloti can't happen because Tifa or Cloud dies as sole reason. That's not a good argument. Especially not for the world of Final Fantasy games.

 

[KindOfBlue]

Zack being dead didn't stop Zerith shippers and it won't stop them if either Zack dies again in the Remake or if Aerith dies first before he does again. It won't stop Cloti shippers either if either Tifa or Cloud dies. You'll never catch me saying Cloti can't happen because Tifa or Cloud dies as sole reason. That's not a good argument. Especially not for the world of Final Fantasy games.

But it is an argument for this game, part of the impact of Zack’s death is knowing that him and Aerith can’t meet again, just as the OG tries to make the player like the idea of Cloud and Aerith so as to amplify her death. Their deaths wouldn’t have much meaning if it didn’t affect the relationships they left behind. Obviously, Aerith dying shouldn’t stop anybody from shipping her and Cloud, nor is it meant to, but the whole point with them was that they don’t get to be together. Remake’s anybody’s guess, I suppose, but more shippers would be better off just liking what they like and accepting what both relationships bring to the story.

 

[loozzer]

I guess I don't get why this is such a big argument since I just played FF7 for the first time with the remake but I really don't see why this is an argument still. No matter how you approach it all roads in Cloud's love life lead to Tifa. Even if Cloud did love Aerith as his true love guess what she's maggot food bro that ship is dead in the water sinking very fast as soon as Sephiroth does his thing.

Besides weren't Tifa and Aerith friends? If my wife died I wouldn't be doing the nasty with her friends less than a month after she died I'm sorry if you really love someone you aren't about to hook up with their friends immediately after they die, that's fucked up man.

the debate has never been about who he ends up with. it's about who cloud loves more. a ship doesn't die just because a character dies. if cloud ends up with tifa but then the developers say "so cloud ends up with tifa but aerith was his true love", that to me means that clerith is the true romantic relationship of ff7. this is pretty common in real life as well. your true love dies but you have to move on. if cloti only end up together because cloud's #1 choice is dead, then that means clerith is still very much a thing even after her death.

additionally, people are complicated, it seems pretty realistic to me that some people would hook up with a close friend of a dead loved one. happens all the time irl. it doesn't mean you didn't truly love your dead wife

 

[eleamaya]

if cloti only end up together because cloud's #1 choice is dead, then that means clerith is still very much a thing even after her death.

That's why Lifestream sequence of Cloud's mental realm tell the players that Aerith is never Cloud #1 choice. And the devs said it's an important part of the game. But most people only focused on Under Highwind with different affection point result and forget that.

 

[frosty]

Even if Cloud did love Aerith as his true love guess what she's maggot food bro that ship is dead in the water sinking very fast as soon as Sephiroth does his thing.

Basically, as the people above me have mentioned, shippers like to argue who Cloud loves MORE.

Think of it as them assigning Cloud affection points like the in-game mechanics and DAMMIT THEY WANT THEIR GIRL TO WIN WITH THE MOST POINTS.

No matter what the narrative or end result is shown, like you said, that steers Cloud eventually, whether in the OG, Remake, books, epilogues, towards the direction of a happy family life with Tifa...it doesn't matter. This mental point system in an all or nothing format seems to be of utmost importance.

I have no idea why this happens. It just does.

additionally, people are complicated, it seems pretty realistic to me that some people would hook up with a close friend of a dead loved one. happens all the time irl. it doesn't mean you didn't truly love your dead wife

If you want to argue "happens all the time irl", IRL, people also move on, find love with other people and go on to have full, happy lives and remember their past loves as a memory.

I find that people are open to this interpretation ONLY when Aerith did this to Zack, but seem absolutely abhorrent when this idea is applied to Cloud letting go of Aerith's memory and building his life with Tifa.

 

[eleamaya]

I find that people are open to this interpretation ONLY when Aerith did this to Zack, but seem absolutely abhorrent when this idea is applied to Cloud letting go of Aerith's memory and building his life with Tifa.

Depend... I think normal people who doesnt care about pairing apply the idea to both.
People think Aerith deserves to do that because they think her past relationship with Zack isnt that meaningful, that Zack is cheater, womanizer, or that their love is just fling, puppy love, etc. Cleriths have that mindset 10 years before CC.
But ask people who enter the compilation from CC first. Would they apply this idea to Aerith? Nope, they would say Aerith loves Zack forever. She's gonna die anyway.

**just my observation from twitter though**

 

[BoxFBall]

Zack being dead didn't stop Zerith shippers and it won't stop them if either Zack dies again in the Remake or if Aerith dies first before he does again. It won't stop Cloti shippers either if either Tifa or Cloud dies. You'll never catch me saying Cloti can't happen because Tifa or Cloud dies as sole reason. That's not a good argument. Especially not for the world of Final Fantasy games.

Here is the thing Zach and Aerith ARE each others true ship, and they ACTUALLY dated unlike Cloud and Aerith. Zerith is a terrible example to use because it is the only ship in this game that is 100% confirmed to have happened. Claerith and Cloti are debatable(Cloti to a lesser extent cause the evidencefor it compared to Claerith is overwhelming), but still debatable).

I don't know bro when Cloud said in the lifestream he tried to join SOLDIER to get Tifa to notice him and then he knocked her boots off under the Highwind that should have deaded the debate... on top of the fact Aerith is dead... hell just the Under the Highwind sequence is more romantic interaction in one scene that Cloud and Aerith had in total period on top of the fact if you go into their backstories there is enough romantic tropes and cliches there to write a sappy teenage love story a few times over(girl next door, wanted to get her attention, she constantly thought about him).

Like I said I aint 20 years deep in this fandom, as a newcomer to this I'm legit baffled most of the time how this is even an argument, it's like denying the truth that is laid out in plain sight for you to see.

 

[Eerie]

Cloti's been confirmed as canon in the Ultimania, that's why there was a huge shift after this to "who Cloud loves more" and "if Aerith was alive, who would he have chosen". I still believe it's Tifa tho XD

 

[BoxFBall]

Cloti's been confirmed as canon in the Ultimania, that's why there was a huge shift after this to "who Cloud loves more" and "if Aerith was alive, who would he have chosen". I still believe it's Tifa tho XD

So people really think Cloud loves Aerith more than Tifa, a girl he admittedly had a crush on and wanted to dig out since he was like 8. Cloud knew Aerith for like two weeks tops, they never kissed, hell they may not have ever even gone on a real date. Cloud joined the military to get Tifa's attention, he actually had sex with her(let's not be juvenile about this he beat them walls loose under the highwind) hell he started a whole family with her, like I don't mean to offend anyone but I'm blunt as hell it's the only way I know how to be, but GTFOH bruh you smoking dope if you think he was caught up on Aerith like that. How much did he really love her if he moved on in like two weeks... TWO WEEKS!!! LMAO

 

[Maidenofwar]

Ummm ... Cloud and Aerith dated too. Clerith was also Canon, doesn't matter Cloti also is.

 

[frosty]

Ummm ... Cloud and Aerith dated too

Then went on A date. Which Boxfball pointed out may or may not even have been a real one.

Zack and Aerith were in an exclusive relationship = they dated

 

[Maidenofwar]

They went on a date and had the promise of another one which might have also happened. Many agree it makes the most sense canonly for story. Two dates (park and Gold Saucer) and canon attraction/feelings.

Even in Remake the people working on the game talk about how hard they worked to make Cloud and Aerith's time alone together very romantic in terms of aesthetics, music, atmosphere, etc and of it being like a date night.

I found out the music for Aerith dream scene is called Every Moment Matters/Cherish the Moment too. It doesn't matter the time, they intend for everything to be cherished, not for anything to be insignificant or inferior.