SPOILERS LTD Remake — It's like New Coke except ... no, it's exactly like New Coke

[Eerie]

Points like the above really make me wonder, how much do y’all think the nature of the LTD will change (if at all) by the time the remake’s over?

This is exactly the kind of things I refer to when I say that the LTD has distorted the characters and the story. This is why I ranted. I really don't know what's complicated with "Cloud cares about everyone, he cherishes the different bonds he has with people". But Twitter is garbage for discussion, you can't make a clear discussion and put order in your thoughts - and this does not affect only the LTD, generally speaking putting nuance in discourse there is almost impossible.

 

[KindOfBlue]

But Twitter is garbage for discussion, you can't make a clear discussion and put order in your thoughts - and this does not affect only the LTD, generally speaking putting nuance in discourse there is almost impossible.

Absolutely, thank god I don’t actually have a Twitter account but unfortunately just scrolling through the #FF7R tag means occasionally running into stuff like this, even though I avoid shipping hashtags like the plague lol.

Like sure, there could be a point to be made about how differently the devs choose to portray intimacy between Cloud and Tifa versus Cloud and Aerith but this obsession with “winning”, you said it best, it distorts the characters and story and that’s easily why I hate shipping wars, this one especially.

And don’t even get me started on the grasping at straws and overall pettiness lol.

 

[Odysseus]

Something I've been wondering: does Cloud actually matter in these debates? Like, do people actually care about him and who the better partner for him is, or is he just the artifice through which people squabble over who the "best girl" is? Just curious what some of you think.

 

[pigglesthepup]

Something I've been wondering: does Cloud actually matter in these debates? Like, do people actually care about him and who the better partner for him is, or is he just the artifice through which people squabble over who the "best girl" is? Just curious what some of you think.

If you want the real answer, yes he matters. I'm of the opinion the "it's ambiguous" problem arises not just because of the date mechanic that uses player choice in the OG (Remake is different), but because his character and arc are meta in nature. If the player wants the answer to how Cloud actually feels, they have to recognize that and separate themselves from him.

What do I mean when I say Cloud and his arc are "meta?" The OG is a role playing game where the player--a normal person--role plays as the hero, who himself is role playing as a hero and in reality was just another normal person. He achieves this by misremembering and constructing a fantasy about himself and if the player takes the stance that Cloud isn't in love with Tifa (note: this has nothing to do with Aerith), they have to misremember and construct a fantasy about the Lifestream sequence, which itself was about remembering the truth and unraveling the fantasy. The answer to this all comes in the Highwind scene. Without going more into the OG (because this thread is about the Remake), if the player got the low affection version, they either chose the break the illusion of the fantasy by accruing more affection points with Tifa on a second play-through and get the high affection version (it's about Cloud recognizing Tifa's voice and not reverting to the cold, SOLDIER-persona). Or they do not. Again, this is something the should probably go in the thread for the OG.

My point is some people play video games to play the role of someone who is not only not them, but of a badass power fantasy. They want it that way intentionally (this is why the Xbox is popular with young males, imo). Or they're a sucker for the whole Jack x Rose fated romance thing and the rest of the story is unimportant to them after that. But if Cloud himself is to actually matter in this discussion, those things need to be let go of and the aim needs to be to fully break Cloud from the illusion.

Note: Sorry this is my first post here. I've been lurking around, reading other's thoughts on the Remake, comparing them to my own. I actually hate this particular discussion because it always turns toxic. I'm gonna focus on posting elsewhere.

 

[Odysseus]

I guess I'm more wondering, do people even care how Cloud feels? Are his feelings the actual crux of the debate, that is trying to be solved? My cynical, jaded mind feels like all of that is just a pretext so the debaters can feel vindicated by the narrative for whichever girl they want to fuck / relate to more, and the actual narrative of the story isn't so important. Maybe I'm just becoming a disgruntled old man lol.

Also, welcome aboard!

 

[pigglesthepup]

I guess I'm more wondering, do people even care how Cloud feels? Are his feelings the actual crux of the debate, that is trying to be solved? My cynical, jaded mind feels like all of that is just a pretext so the debaters can feel vindicated by the narrative for whichever girl they want to fuck / relate to more, and the actual narrative of the story isn't so important. Maybe I'm just becoming a disgruntled old man lol.

Also, welcome aboard!

Short answer: players who actually care to understand it on a deeper level value how Cloud actually feels, but shippers who ship just to ship don't.

And thanks!

 

[BioTeach]

Cloud's just over on the sidelines like-

Spoiler

 

[pigglesthepup]

Cloud's just over on the sidelines like-

Spoiler

View attachment 10555

No, Cloud. Beacause...

Spoiler

you are a puppet.

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

I guess I'm more wondering, do people even care how Cloud feels?

Those who are only showing up for this shit-slinging contest don't care how the women themselves feel. You think they care about how Cloud does? =P

 

[pigglesthepup]

Those who are only showing up for this shit-slinging contest don't care how the women themselves feel. You think they care about how Cloud does? =P

For the ending of the final installment to Remake, they should

have Tifa telling Cloud *she* is going to meet Aerith in the Promise Land and that Cloud can come along, but let him know that he's a third wheel and his presense won't be appreciated.

 

[Odysseus]

Those who are only showing up for this shit-slinging contest don't care how the women themselves feel. You think they care about how Cloud does? =P

Good point. Makes me really wonder what some people even get out of this.

 

[Humming]

Poor Cloud, they are trying to make him a selfish prick again. The meme at the end of the twitter thread says it all, no matter what you have to say or explain, they have already built their echo chamber.

I'm pretty sure they'd love that Cloud killed himself in AC instead of having him fight his demons and save his family.

 

[Eerie]

I think for some people it's about winning more than caring about what the story says, at this point, because they have argued for so long that they can't fathom "being wrong". As I have said prior to this, look at us arguing 10, 15 years ago about mere details. It's not about the big picture anymore, it's about standing on points and thinking everything is alright. In French we call that "avoir la tête dans le guidon" literally "to have your head in the handlebars" and I think it's eloquent enough to understand its meaning as is :')

 

[pigglesthepup]

I think for some people it's about winning more than caring about what the story says, at this point, because they have argued for so long that they can't fathom "being wrong". As I have said prior to this, look at us arguing 10, 15 years ago about mere details. It's not about the big picture anymore, it's about standing on points and thinking everything is alright.

For be fair, from the perspective of someone who has been in and out of this fandom and followed it since the release of the OG during my teens, I feel like it's either a) calmed down quite a bit or b) moved to some part of the internet I don't bother with (social media most likely). I feel like the vitriol peaked with AC (at least on sites like this). Remake series is going to take closer to ten years to release in entirety, so that's another decade of arguing over details. For perspective, the Culture War has been raging in American politics for over 40 years, fueled on by the same type of thing. Only way it's going to end is why SE ending it themselves.

Good point. Makes me really wonder what some people even get out of this.

Beating the same dead horse all the time is boring. I started reading up on since to see what other's interpretation of who Cloud loves, but how the dynamic of the LT was changed for Remake. I've written some stuff up about it myself and am still deciding what to do with it. Found it interesting enough to lurk and see what others think.

 

[Eerie]

I think here we're a bit special lol, we've chilled quite considerably since the old days I'd say. I often go on the cloti tag on Twitter to find fanart and my god that tag is at war, permanently. It's a bit tiring, you go in the tag and see cleriths congratulating themselves about hating Tifa and how we clotis are stupid. I'm like "at least don't bring your hate to the tag ". Then there are cleriths who are like "stop hating Tifa plz" and get activately shunned by other cleriths. Then clotis fans finding war in their tags and joining. I predict that the release of the new Ultimania and the novel is going to be da bomb (for the tags anyway lol).

And if you wonder, my use of Twitter is limited to my very restricted circle of friends, so I leave the war at my door lol. It's the only way to survive there. I just don't participate in fandom at all via Twitter, it's honestly for the best.

 

[BoxFBall]

Something I've been wondering: does Cloud actually matter in these debates? Like, do people actually care about him and who the better partner for him is, or is he just the artifice through which people squabble over who the "best girl" is? Just curious what some of you think.

I remember in one of my first posts in this thread I felt like Tifa would be the better partner for Cloud in the long run, granted I think there would be a lot of growing pains.

Cloud hates being told what to do, doesn't really like to try new things, and is not out going at all. Him and Aerith are polar opposites and all the walls she broke down she kind of forced him in a position/Forced him to break them down. She kinda made him get up on stage and dance, Cloud wanted to just bumrush the front door(which he EASILY could have done let's be honest). Cloud was just simply trying to get back to Sector 7, Aerith kept playing games and delaying it. His facial expressions show he was kind of annoyed with Aerith until he has his brain episode in the park. Let's say for instance Claerith is the canon ship in the game, Cloud is probably ok with all the things Aerith is doing because they are in the puppy love phase, you always let some things slide when things are new(you shouldn't but people do). I think with time Cloud would have grew to eventually resent these qualities about Aerith.

Cloud and Tifa's personalities mesh better, but this isn't necessarily a good thing since mentally Cloud is 16, and Tifa mentally is 20, but she is still growing herself, which is why I said there would be growing pains because Cloud has A LOT of growing up to do, hell AC:C and Case of Tifa show a lot of this. Hell Tifa finally did what she should of done in the OG game and finally told Cloud the truth about his weak ass self when they had that argument.

Like I said both of these girls are crazy for liking this weak ass dude. Lmao

 

[Odysseus]

My poor boy clud, always having all his positive qualities overlooked.

 

[frosty]

My poor boy clud, always having all his positive qualities overlooked.

What ARE his positive qualities tho?

Like I said both of these girls are crazy for liking this weak ass dude. Lmao

I actually had to think hard and long why he's good for either of these women and...I honestly don't know. I could go full on Marle here about his emotional constipation.

But storybook narratives of relationships say the man must do A Grand Thing To Prove Himself and win the right to be with the woman, and therefore if FF7 says getting into SOLDIER to get stronger and be a Hero is good enough for Tifa, I acquiesce. Communication skills not required!

If I had to pick a SOLDIER, give me emotionally stable Zack any day over Cloud, so maybe Aerith was the one that lucked out. I like me a man who'd do my chores for me

[Edit] Ok so in retrospect, Cloud in FF7R does make efforts to be better emotional support for Tifa, so perhaps it will be built on in the next installments. And he buys her vegetables in CoT. So plus point.

 

[Eerie]

What ARE his positive qualities tho?

He's kind, caring, always ready to help people even if begrudgingly, honest, tries to better himself. He may have a lot of mental troubles, but he's overall a better man than MANY. And in Remake, it's glaring as to why at least Tifa would fall for him rather than anyone else - and the reason why I'm still shipping them.

Also cherishes his bonds with people. Every one of his friends is dear to him, even though right now he's not himself, he's also not faking friendships.

 

[LicoriceAllsorts]

One of the characteristics I love about Cloud, especially Remake Cloud, is that when he's asked to step outside of his comfort zone, or to do somebody a favour, he often says No first but then does it anyway. I relate to that. "Want to do this cool thing with me?" "No. What does it involve? Well, okay, yeah." He LOVES praise but he's inherently modest. He's not lazy or a scrounger. He keeps his word. He's a practical guy, a problem-solver. Once he figures out where people are coming from (like Barret), he's willing to overlook the more annoying aspects of their personalities for the sake of the good in them. For all his grouchy posturing, he's a very positive person. And like Eerie said, he really cares about people.

I agree that the Remake has done a great job of portraying him as the kind of man Tifa would give her heart to. By that I mean, I don't just accept their relationship because the game tells me to. I believe it.

 

[Makoeyes987]

I mean. You'd also be a mental basket case with emotional constipation if you were experimented on for 4 years, exposed to mind-shattering radiation while injected with alien cells that made you a vegetable, all right after experiencing the trauma of losing your whole family and hometown....

And then you got to see your best friend die as you lay there helplessly paralyzed.... Right before experiencing a psychotic break from your own ego which leads to the assumption of a false identity, because your mind is that unable to cope with the trauma and alien infestation manipulating your subconscious.

All while balancing saving the planet and putting down the equivalent of a superhero hellbent on murdering the planet. Twice.

While suffering from crippling depression and a terminal illness. And helping to raise 2 kids.

No, I think Tifa having someone able to bounce back from all that and more, and still pull through and be the hero he promised to be as a kid, makes her pretty fortunate. And she'd agree.

 

[Odysseus]

He's kind, caring, always ready to help people even if begrudgingly, honest, tries to better himself. He may have a lot of mental troubles, but he's overall a better man than MANY. And in Remake, it's glaring as to why at least Tifa would fall for him rather than anyone else - and the reason why I'm still shipping them.

Also cherishes his bonds with people. Every one of his friends is dear to him, even though right now he's not himself, he's also not faking friendships.

I agree with all this, but I want to address Cloud's "mental maturity" as well.

People ever since those ultimania interviews have mentioned him being mentally 16, and that's true, but I feel like people are using that as a way to diminish his maturity overall. Despite acting petty and childish towards the beginning, Cloud is actually a pretty emotionally mature person underneath it all. He's willing to help Jessie in chapter 4, on paper because she's offering him a summon materia, but in practice because he knows she's shaken up about the bombing mission and he wants to ease her mind. He even asks about her to Biggs when that's not relevant to the mission at all, and he warms up to Wedge as well. Cloud's secretly the kind of guy who would do right by people he barely even knows because he's empathetic. He's able to recognize his own shortcomings and learn from them, like the example of seeing Barret comfort Tifa when he couldn't, and then put that into practice in their garden scene. He's very capable of growing as a person, I dare say that's a big part of what FF7 is all about.

Also he's great with kids all throughout the remake and evidently knows how to run a business by himself in Advent Children. Swell guy imo.

 

[Eerie]

Yeah people are stuck on the "he's 16 mentally". I honestly think it *shows* in Remake that he's very young mentally, which is great writing, but the greater thing with him is his ability to grow and to better himself and to learn how to navigate the world as an adult while not knowing who tf he is.

 

[pigglesthepup]

honest

Listen, I love Cloud, too. He was my OG blond crush. But I'm gonna have to flag this: he does a lot of lying over the course of this story. His lies are spread all over Remake (actual lies, not just him misremembering) and he admits to lying about things when he returns to the party in the OG. He becomes honest, but at this point in time, he's a liar.

Also he's great with kids all throughout the remake

Except for Marlene. Fortunately, that gets better.

Yeah people are stuck on the "he's 16 mentally". I honestly think it *shows* in Remake that he's very young mentally, which is great writing, but the greater thing with him is his ability to grow and to better himself and to learn how to navigate the world as an adult while not knowing who tf he is.

A friend who is playing Remake and has started the original and not left Midgar told me his thoughts on Cloud: "brooding teenager." Good writing, indeed.

 

[LicoriceAllsorts]

But are Cloud's lies malicious? Self-serving? Or do they have some other cause?
I absolutely believe you when you say that Cloud lies in the Remake. It's just that I don't remember where. Can you give a couple of examples?

Now that I think about it, I guess most of the main cast lie quite a bit, if by lying we mean keeping certain information concealed. None of them are completely open and upfront about their pasts, at least to start with.