SPOILERS LTD Remake — It's like New Coke except ... no, it's exactly like New Coke
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Eerie
Fire and Blood
Double post because how many times did I say that Aerith told Cloud to not fall in love with her was also a self warning? If Aerith has memories of the close future, then it makes sense for her to not want to fall for Cloud. Because it's heartbreaking.
LicoriceAllsorts
Donator
I preferred it when she was just his dream.
This "projecting some sort of conscience through the Lifestream" a conscience that knows the future in the way she doesn't, but doesn't know her heart, because she also doesn't know it....
Also, it's "consciousness", not conscience. Your conscience is your moral compass.
This "projecting some sort of conscience through the Lifestream" a conscience that knows the future in the way she doesn't, but doesn't know her heart, because she also doesn't know it....
Also, it's "consciousness", not conscience. Your conscience is your moral compass.
So this Aerith knows the immediate future and has feelings for Cloud (locked in her heart or not). Could that mean that our Aerith, the one in Shinra's HQ, still hasn't developed feelings for Spikey? Maybe it's a stretch, sorry, but reading the translation the 'don't fall in love with me' sounds like it to come into play later and not now in part 1.
Anyway, even if they don't have a thing right now (they just met), doesn't mean that there's no mutual interest, but it would blow up the 'love at first sight' some people argue that happened.
Edited the 'from'. My point is if it's not a projection but a different Aerith summoned from the lifestream, both Aerith's could be at different points in time?
Anyway, even if they don't have a thing right now (they just met), doesn't mean that there's no mutual interest, but it would blow up the 'love at first sight' some people argue that happened.
Edited the 'from'. My point is if it's not a projection but a different Aerith summoned from the lifestream, both Aerith's could be at different points in time?
Last edited:
Eerie
Fire and Blood
It's not and Aerith from the future though, it's an Aerith who's aware of the future:
Aerith projects herself, but it's an Aerith who, like in a lot of scenes, has been shown to know a lot about the immediate future. And it makes sense that if she knows Cloud's feelings for Tifa, then she wouldn't want to fall for him, because no matter what, it's just asking to be heartbroken.
Also:
True Cloud does indeed show up there and lol, "blunder", really Cloud?
Aerith projects herself, but it's an Aerith who, like in a lot of scenes, has been shown to know a lot about the immediate future. And it makes sense that if she knows Cloud's feelings for Tifa, then she wouldn't want to fall for him, because no matter what, it's just asking to be heartbroken.
Also:
True Cloud does indeed show up there and lol, "blunder", really Cloud?
Maidenofwar
They/Them
"Despite what her words request, perhaps her true heart and thoughts are closed off"
Interesting. Just to think though an Aerith with awareness of the future having to retrace her steps through the story while knowing things - and other info Audrey has been delivering from the Ultimania+ makes me think Zack is not on the same timeline (yet?) so it might be a while before Aerith and Zack reunite still? So Aerith has to struggle with her feelings all that time
I also read Cloud was protesting Aerith's "Don't fall in love with me-" line which is what I thought. This is part of what makes it especially hard for Aerith I think.
Interesting. Just to think though an Aerith with awareness of the future having to retrace her steps through the story while knowing things - and other info Audrey has been delivering from the Ultimania+ makes me think Zack is not on the same timeline (yet?) so it might be a while before Aerith and Zack reunite still? So Aerith has to struggle with her feelings all that time
I also read Cloud was protesting Aerith's "Don't fall in love with me-" line which is what I thought. This is part of what makes it especially hard for Aerith I think.
Eerie
Fire and Blood
Cloud is really confused in her scene, and I must say that it's one of the scenes where I replayed in slomo his reaction a lot because I couldn't interpret his line of thoughts - so being confused does fit I suppose.
But yeah, Aerith is really in a difficult place right now One where she cannot meet with the man who truly cherishes her, and one who is kind to her truly loves another woman. I've been contemplating that a lot since last year, trying to figure out how this will play. I don't really know if she'll manage to protect herself or not. If she has other visions of Zack, maybeeeeeeeee.
But yeah, Aerith is really in a difficult place right now
One where she cannot meet with the man who truly cherishes her, and one who is kind to her truly loves another woman. I've been contemplating that a lot since last year, trying to figure out how this will play. I don't really know if she'll manage to protect herself or not. If she has other visions of Zack, maybeeeeeeeee.a_apple 2.0
Pro Adventurer
- AKA
- a_apple
dude
did anyone read the spoilers to the new tifa novel
that shit reads like a CloudxTifa fanfiction
like damn
did anyone read the spoilers to the new tifa novel
that shit reads like a CloudxTifa fanfiction
like damn
Makoeyes987
Listen closely, there is meaning in my words.
- AKA
- Smooth Criminal
Didn't read like fanfiction to me.
There's been a foundation to Cloud and Tifa for awhile, the writers have been building it up each adaption and this is just another way it's being expanded upon. The age of perpetual ambiguity is over.
There's been a foundation to Cloud and Tifa for awhile, the writers have been building it up each adaption and this is just another way it's being expanded upon. The age of perpetual ambiguity is over.
KindOfBlue
Pro Adventurer
- AKA
- Blue
null
Mr. Thou
- AKA
- null
or...can this be framed as fans were actually right in their reading of events and characterizations, in line with what the creators wanted?
Yeah it's just more confirmation, but we sure came a long way, didn't we? Starting off with this:
And now, apparently, we have all this!
Tifa and Cloud used to play as neighbors before Thea, tifa’s mom passed away.
Thea use to say how handsome Cloud is and see that made Tifa happy.
Tifa was seen as a prize to be won in her hometown because of her looks, this naturally upset her.
Tifa had a pet cat who ran away. Cloud found the cat but was too shy to bring it round so his mother did. (As a side note I did notice in Remake both Cloud and Tifa talk to cats).
Tifa and Cloud both admire each other from a distance when their friendship drifted.
Cloud gathered his courage and awkwardly asked Tifa to meet him at the water tower and then ran away.
Tifa told Cloud she can meet him at midnight.
Tifa dressed up and was expecting Cloud to confess his feelings to her.
Before the water tower:
"My heart races when I see Cloud—It’s not because I like him that I get nervous and can’t speak well. I admire him. He’s something beautiful and out of reach. Like the stars." ?
After talking with Cloud at the water tower and understanding how normal Cloud is she went from crush to love. ?????
When Cloud left Tifa cried. ?
When she received news Shinra troops were coming to Niblehiem she went to check with Claudia if Cloud was coming.
Claudia discovered Cloud only told Tifa he wanted to be in SOLDIER after Tifa asked her if Cloud made it in.
Claudia and Tifa cooked together.
Thea use to say how handsome Cloud is and see that made Tifa happy.
Tifa was seen as a prize to be won in her hometown because of her looks, this naturally upset her.
Tifa had a pet cat who ran away. Cloud found the cat but was too shy to bring it round so his mother did. (As a side note I did notice in Remake both Cloud and Tifa talk to cats).
Tifa and Cloud both admire each other from a distance when their friendship drifted.
Cloud gathered his courage and awkwardly asked Tifa to meet him at the water tower and then ran away.
Tifa told Cloud she can meet him at midnight.
Tifa dressed up and was expecting Cloud to confess his feelings to her.
Before the water tower:
"My heart races when I see Cloud—It’s not because I like him that I get nervous and can’t speak well. I admire him. He’s something beautiful and out of reach. Like the stars." ?
After talking with Cloud at the water tower and understanding how normal Cloud is she went from crush to love. ?????
When Cloud left Tifa cried. ?
When she received news Shinra troops were coming to Niblehiem she went to check with Claudia if Cloud was coming.
Claudia discovered Cloud only told Tifa he wanted to be in SOLDIER after Tifa asked her if Cloud made it in.
Claudia and Tifa cooked together.
I mean, in the old days it was like "We won't tell you what to think, but the answers are all there." Now it's "Look at it. LOOOOOK AT IT."
LicoriceAllsorts
Donator
Man, I wish they'd stuck with the "we won't tell you what to think", but some people aren't happy until every last ambiguity and nuance is explained to them.
This really does feel like a properly thought out cloti fanfic, except that it's not a fanfic. Though um... this style of romance is a bit too much for me. It's sweet, but oh man... And by "this style" I mean things like:
Yeah, it's pretty normal for teenagers to be like that, but god, this feels like a teenage romance novel... Or maybe it's just the effects of translation and emojis.
Ok, I'll shaddap now and let shippers enjoy their ship being totally canon
Yeah, it's pretty normal for teenagers to be like that, but god, this feels like a teenage romance novel... Or maybe it's just the effects of translation and emojis.
Ok, I'll shaddap now and let shippers enjoy their ship being totally canon
Makoeyes987
Listen closely, there is meaning in my words.
- AKA
- Smooth Criminal
The ambiguity was never the point, nor any sort of greater statement towards relationships or the narrative.
It was simply a hole left in the narrative through a complete lack of interest from the authors. They never cared.
That's not nuance or thoughtfulness. That's just an empty, vacuous hole that was left through a dearth of characterization towards the real life dimension of relationships. They're not afraid anymore nor should they be. How Tifa feels and romantically endears herself to some kid named Cloud reflects who she is. That's them and their bond. Of course it's not going to entertain everyone especially when they've projected their own way of picturing how she was which may not even match who she is at all. But that's the point of writing, especially writing a childhood crush and romance.
It was simply a hole left in the narrative through a complete lack of interest from the authors. They never cared.
That's not nuance or thoughtfulness. That's just an empty, vacuous hole that was left through a dearth of characterization towards the real life dimension of relationships. They're not afraid anymore nor should they be. How Tifa feels and romantically endears herself to some kid named Cloud reflects who she is. That's them and their bond. Of course it's not going to entertain everyone especially when they've projected their own way of picturing how she was which may not even match who she is at all. But that's the point of writing, especially writing a childhood crush and romance.
The translation and use of emojis don't fit the writing style, don't worry, or at least that's why I assume. After all, they are trying to put the ideas of specific chapters of the book into small tweet-like texts, and you can't help but lose even the structure itself of the whole scene, so some things can sound a bit out of place or poorly introduced.
Eerie
Fire and Blood
To give you an idea about a properly translated part:
I also have to say that the "The kind of 'love' that makes two people want to spend time together" reminds me of Aerith who wants to spend time with both Zack and Cloud - although both times *before* she falls for them. I've seen this part shockingly badly translated by some part of the clerith fandom and they're doing themselves a disfavour because they're missing things like this when they do it. Whatever.
I also have to say that the "The kind of 'love' that makes two people want to spend time together" reminds me of Aerith who wants to spend time with both Zack and Cloud - although both times *before* she falls for them. I've seen this part shockingly badly translated by some part of the clerith fandom and they're doing themselves a disfavour because they're missing things like this when they do it. Whatever.
Maidenofwar
They/Them
Another confirmation Aerith and Cloud had a date (jealous Cloud maybe?) ?
I read elsewhere also there is a bit for the scene in the park similar to where earlier in the chapter Cloud's heart skips a beat, his heart beats faster having Aerith so close or something.
Also this is curious to me because it's not the only time they've been referred to as on a date in the Remake, like there was reference to that for earlier on the Collapsed expressway and stuff as well. Fits in with my belief they were on a date the entire time Aerith said Cloud was already getting paid xD
I read elsewhere also there is a bit for the scene in the park similar to where earlier in the chapter Cloud's heart skips a beat, his heart beats faster having Aerith so close or something.
Also this is curious to me because it's not the only time they've been referred to as on a date in the Remake, like there was reference to that for earlier on the Collapsed expressway and stuff as well. Fits in with my belief they were on a date the entire time Aerith said Cloud was already getting paid xD
Eerie
Fire and Blood
I'd be baffled that there are people around who deny that this is their date lol.
Also, a summary of Claudia and Tifa interacting before the Nibelheim incident which makes me believe that... Claudia was indeed teasing Cloud in that dream scene in game lol.
Also, a summary of Claudia and Tifa interacting before the Nibelheim incident which makes me believe that... Claudia was indeed teasing Cloud in that dream scene in game lol.
Makoeyes987
Listen closely, there is meaning in my words.
- AKA
- Smooth Criminal
I think one thing that the Remake is doing quite effectively is showing that yes, Cloud liked both women.
It's not even really a debate anymore, unless you try to argue who he liked more. Cloud had a crush on Aerith, and a long term crush and particular closeness with Tifa. But in the end, he literally felt for both of them. I would say Tifa definitely edges out given their past and the significance she holds in his heart, which is sadly suppressed due to the experiments he endured.
But that definitely doesn't mean Aerith was insignificant. That is the more nuanced storytelling perspective that's actually reflective of reality. Confronting the fact that yes, sometimes you can end up liking two people for two different reasons at different moments in your life.
It's not even really a debate anymore, unless you try to argue who he liked more. Cloud had a crush on Aerith, and a long term crush and particular closeness with Tifa. But in the end, he literally felt for both of them. I would say Tifa definitely edges out given their past and the significance she holds in his heart, which is sadly suppressed due to the experiments he endured.
But that definitely doesn't mean Aerith was insignificant. That is the more nuanced storytelling perspective that's actually reflective of reality. Confronting the fact that yes, sometimes you can end up liking two people for two different reasons at different moments in your life.
Eerie
Fire and Blood
I don't think it's love though, for neither. Just like in the OG, he wavers between them, but he doesn't understand "love" or the feelings associated with it (too fucked up in the head). He's definitely attracted to both, and both are very important to him, just in different ways - the Avalanche team also is important, as is Barret. I just don't see him being in love with Aerith in Remake, at least not yet. And they've known each other for 3 days, so that's normal. With Tifa, it's a bit different because the feelings are here, but they're hidden. What I really enjoy I think is all the relationships and how they're described in Remake, may they be pertaining to Cloud or not.
I think what's really interesting is that Remake, LT-wise, is telling you TWO stories; there's the one that leaves an impression on the mind, however if you rewatch and analyse the scenes, it paints a really different story. At first you get the impression that Cloud's attracted to both women, but that at the same time, Tifa's really special to him. When you go in detail, you realise that he's not wavering *that* much, even if you can get that impression. It was insanehobbit who did an analysis on the filmmaking of some scenes, and she said that after doing that, she had 0 doubt about what they were doing - and I agree!
I should really go into chapter 11 and put my analysis of it here, because it's really interesting to see what they've done with it.
I think what's really interesting is that Remake, LT-wise, is telling you TWO stories; there's the one that leaves an impression on the mind, however if you rewatch and analyse the scenes, it paints a really different story. At first you get the impression that Cloud's attracted to both women, but that at the same time, Tifa's really special to him. When you go in detail, you realise that he's not wavering *that* much, even if you can get that impression. It was insanehobbit who did an analysis on the filmmaking of some scenes, and she said that after doing that, she had 0 doubt about what they were doing - and I agree!
I should really go into chapter 11 and put my analysis of it here, because it's really interesting to see what they've done with it.
null
Mr. Thou
- AKA
- null
This really does feel like a properly thought out cloti fanfic, except that it's not a fanfic. Though um... this style of romance is a bit too much for me. It's sweet, but oh man... And by "this style" I mean things like:
Yeah, it's pretty normal for teenagers to be like that, but god, this feels like a teenage romance novel... Or maybe it's just the effects of translation and emojis.
Ok, I'll shaddap now and let shippers enjoy their ship being totally canon
Sorry the emojis were my own silly color commentary... I was just shocked to read that. Tifa being madly in love with and admiring ordinary Cloud before he left town... wow. How long have fans been arguing over whether Tifa fell for Disc 1 Cloud? Literally decades, right? I think it was even discussed here recently. The whole "I didn't really know you well", only becoming gradually interested after he left town, wishing confident Cloud would show up and take control... what does Tifa actually see in the real Cloud? I never expected SE to officially spell it out.
But yeah it does read like a teenage fanfic. Tifa's mom thinks Cloud is handsome... glad we cleared that up.
Maidenofwar
They/Them
For me it's hard to explain, to find the words, to describe.
To me what Cloud and Aerith have is real, well it is real to them, they are going through and feeling it. With Aerith it's somewhat different this time round due to knowledge, etc from the White Materia and Lifestream, but even then do we know all of what she knows, what the Whispers have stripped away from her, and what she's left with still knowing.
We also know from the Ultimania Cloud has fun spending time with Aerith and the moments he spends with her are precious.
Another detail is that Cloud realizes that Aerith is taking the long route to Sector 7 just to spend more time with him and he smiles when he realizes her feelings here.
I think for me it's like they are starting to fall in love, with Aerith being somewhat more reserved and trying to keep more distance than in OG, while Cloud is confused because he likes her, but also weird stuff is happening which he doesn't understand giving him a sense of sadness and loss around Aerith sometimes.
For me it is amazing because they put so much detail into it all, they even included a bonfire in Chapter 9 which you can get the Cosmo Canyon track from before. YMMV but from all the inputs from the BTS stuff and the staff talk of romantic atmosphere, date, etc I think they approached a lot of things as if they were romantic in nature and they dealt and handled them with that in mind.
To me what Cloud and Aerith have is real, well it is real to them, they are going through and feeling it. With Aerith it's somewhat different this time round due to knowledge, etc from the White Materia and Lifestream, but even then do we know all of what she knows, what the Whispers have stripped away from her, and what she's left with still knowing.
We also know from the Ultimania Cloud has fun spending time with Aerith and the moments he spends with her are precious.
Another detail is that Cloud realizes that Aerith is taking the long route to Sector 7 just to spend more time with him and he smiles when he realizes her feelings here.
I think for me it's like they are starting to fall in love, with Aerith being somewhat more reserved and trying to keep more distance than in OG, while Cloud is confused because he likes her, but also weird stuff is happening which he doesn't understand giving him a sense of sadness and loss around Aerith sometimes.
For me it is amazing because they put so much detail into it all, they even included a bonfire in Chapter 9 which you can get the Cosmo Canyon track from before. YMMV but from all the inputs from the BTS stuff and the staff talk of romantic atmosphere, date, etc I think they approached a lot of things as if they were romantic in nature and they dealt and handled them with that in mind.
Helloooo, been lurking since the new stuff came out.
I kind of want to push back a little at this sentiment, not that I don't think it's valid, but more that I don't think the information that's been revealed in the new Traces novel (not sure about the Ultimania yet I haven't really delved into it) really changes that much of Cloud and Tifa's relationship in the larger scheme of things. Also that, while I don't love being told what to think or how to interpret something either, the misunderstandings that stem from the OG — which imo isn't actually that ambiguous — due to mistranslations or otherwise, are so prevalent among FFVII fans that I think it does a disservice to the characters. It's different from reading a novel or watching a film where themes or plot points are left purposefully vague, here I don't think it was ever purposeful.
As a fan of Tifa's characterization, it's often been frustrating to read how she was a bully or how she deliberately excluded Cloud from her friend group. While we obviously know that's not the case, this point of view is still so common; and I don't believe it'll go away with this novel release either because not everyone consumes everything FFVII and it's not widely available to an international audience, but at least it's some indication that they're working to correct these misunderstandings that actually have a large impact on how people see the characters. And we can see they do this in the Remake itself too.
I have seen some annoyance elsewhere that the new novel "retcons" Cloud and Tifa not really having been friends and that it cheapens the reveal from the OG and the development of their relationship as adults, which I don't really think is the case.
At least from the tidbits and summaries I've seen floating around, it doesn't seem like they were BFFs/inseparable or anything, just that they were playmates as young children before Tifa's mother died, which makes sense because they were neighbors and the village had, like, less than 20 people living in it. And as kids it's not like they were baring their souls to each other, they just kinda bopped around having fun sometimes, like finding Tifa's cat. Cloud had a crush on her, but we already knew that.
And once Tifa's mother died they drifted apart, which also makes sense since all the adults thought Cloud was a bad influence on her due to the other kids' lies. So Cloud was relegated to admiring Tifa from afar, and Tifa was left confused but still interested in Cloud because she always felt the explanation of him forcing her up the mountain was weird. She thought he was handsome and admired his attitude (and like a lot of teenage girls refused to admit it was because she had a crush), but never really approached him again until he asked her to the water tower.
I actually like this explanation because it's in line with her expressions and response to his declaration that he was going to leave for Midgar. In the Remake, you can see that she looks briefly upset when he says he's leaving before pivoting to the promise. I don't think she'd agree to meet him at the water tower at all (even in the OG) if she weren't already marginally interested in him as a person, nor would she have made that promise if she didn't want him to keep in touch.
She clearly didn't know that much about him because this is the moment she realizes that he's just an ordinary boy with big dreams, so it doesn't contradict the idea that she didn't know him well or that they weren't close friends, imo. It just illuminates a bit more of what Tifa thought of Cloud at the time, and it's not drastically different from what I would've expected already. And then of course she began to think of him even more once he left.
I do agree that the romantic-ness of it all is a bit much, but I dunno it's kinda cute too because it's like the ruminations of a teenage girl.