SPOILERS LTD Remake — It's like New Coke except ... no, it's exactly like New Coke

[pigglesthepup]

I think we're in agreement when it comes to the promise scene. I think he's remembering the promise as his own memory in both games - not Tifa's memory, and not a product of his Jenova cells IMO. In the remake, he doesn't have any PTSD symptoms when he remembers it, and it seems as though he's accurately experiencing the memory as his own. In OG, I believe that he is remembering it in the same way as well - he's experiencing it as his own memory based on the 3 ideas that I've mentioned in my previous post. 1. He remembers feeling cold. 2. He didn't think Tifa was going to show up. 3. In the lifestream, Tifa believes that Cloud remembered the promise as his own memory as well. As far as #1 goes, Cloud is describing a bodily sensation that he experienced during that night at the water tower. That tells me that he's experiencing the memory as himself, as he remembers actually being there at the water tower. #2, he didn't think that Tifa was going to show up. This is a thought that only Cloud would have - Tifa would have no idea about this. So again, Cloud seems to be experiencing the memory as his own, from his own perspective. In short, I believe that Cloud is experiencing the promise scene as his own memory in both the OG and Remake, with the only difference being the triggers.

As far as his identity of being a 1st Class Soldier goes, it is directly connected to his Jenova cells. It's not a case of Cloud crafting a lie about being a Soldier. It is a situation in which his Jenova cells created an illusion of a 1st Class Soldier within Cloud's mind, which stemmed from Cloud's experience with Zack. Cloud is not aware of the Jenova cells, and he's not aware of the illusion.

https://64.media.tumblr.com/1ecd897.../7c974201089a249137b34a314de853e123b1c74e.jpg

"Under the effect of Jenova’s cells, Cloud mimics his best friend Zack and creates a new persona..." https://thelifestream.net/lifestrea...ns/348/cloud-strife-character-profile-p36-41/

I agree with all this in terms of the OG. All these details are good and prove the point that Cloud's recollection of the promise came from his own memory. You are 100% correct. Case closed.

For the Remake, it wasn't just the ease of which Cloud remembered the promise, it's within the context of what's going on in the Remake itself with Sephiroth that really stuck out to me. I made the metaphor a couple posts back of Sephiroth pulling out the original game and playing through it himself with the intent remaking the game himself so he could change the way things went down so that he wins. This is Sephiroth from the future, and he's got special link to Cloud's mind through Jenova, so this basically what he did. The OG is played through the role of Cloud, so he used it to analyze him with the intent of manipulating him a way so that Sephiroth wins.

In the OG, the promise was bad for Sephiroth. It kept Cloud close to Tifa, enabling her to repair his mind. In the Remake, he shouldn't want Cloud to remember that. He used the OG to analyze what makes Cloud tick. Cloud should've had one of those really strong PTSD/Jenova-flashes that knocked him unconscious. Sephiroth should want Cloud as far away from Tifa as possible.

The theory is this: in the OG, Cloud's mind broke because of his doubts of who he was, specifically that he was an actual person at all. We can see those doubts reflected in the promise part of the Lifestream sequence: Cloud doesn't believe it was a real memory. Sephiroth gathered details like that about Cloud. Those are things that make Cloud human. Sephiroth also paid close attention to the memory of Mt Nibel and how Cloud blamed himself for it. In the Remake, he's taking the key parts of the memory and taunting Cloud with them: his own perception that he is weak, a failure and that he wants to grow stronger (I broke it down in more detail a couple posts back). He confirmed to Cloud that he did in fact kill him. The thing about the Mt Nibel memory is it was the key to proving to Cloud himself that he was human. Because humans have flaws like that and that's why we have doubts about ourselves.

For the Remake, Sephiroth is inverting the manipulation: instead of denying that Cloud is human altogether, he's using the very things that make him human to manipulate him. That's why he shows up to Cloud with specific things: being on the ground when Nibelheim is burning and that he did in fact kill him, hitting on the points of the Mt Nibel memory. These are things Cloud shouldn't remember right now because at this point in the OG. They were still suppressed. And Sephiroth is bringing them out because he wants Cloud to remember who he is so he can exploit him.

Cloud felt like crap because he was part of the illusion in the OG. He felt like he lied. Want to make that feel even worse? Turn him into an actual liar. Remind him of his own doubts so he'll cling to the SOLDIER illusion. That way when everyone has their doubts about Cloud, it'll really be his fault. Particularly with Tifa, because it was her doubts that ultimately caused Cloud to crack. That's why--in the Remake--Cloud's allowed to remember the promise so easily. Sephiroth wants them close.

Not saying that it will actually be Cloud's fault, but at the time it goes down, he will feel like it is. That's the point.

It's evil, but it's also Sephiroth. And this also still just a theory.

Thank you for your post.

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

What's the variable between Cloud and the other clones? Cloud himself. Jenovaroth could have fed the same BS to the other clones and made them do the same thing, too. But that's not the story. The story is about Cloud.

The variable between Cloud and the other Sephiroth copies is a) Zack, who freed Cloud early and provided him mental stimulation the Jenova cells in his body could latch onto; and b) Tifa, who actually recognized the heap of almost braindead flesh laying at the train station groaning incoherently like the dude in the pipe in Sector 5.

In the Remake, Cloud remembers the promise all by himself. Tifa is not present. She does not say, “you made a promise to me!” because she’s literally not there, so she can’t influence him to recall it. He’s literally off somewhere else, away from her. He’s actually just staring at a fan, which reminds him of the windmill on the water tower. There’s no harsh flash like the rest of his flashbacks. It’s a smooth transition. And then he has the memory. This is the total opposite of how it happened in the OG. Something is different here.

There's not one of those filling-in-the-gaps flashes when Tifa brings it up in the original either ...

There are, however, such flashes (several, actually) in the scene where Tifa finds Cloud at the train station. When he's initially unable to even form a coherent sentence. Until the Jenova in him reacts to Tifa's memories about Cloud and he suddenly becomes functional again.

Precisely as Ultimanias have described what went down there.

Yes, I'm bringing the secondary sources topic back up. You're not even referencing the primary source accurately yet expect everyone else to abandon the secondary ones (also owned and published by Square anyway ...) at your say-so. =/

On that note, @LicoriceAllsorts brought up something else that needs revisiting and emphasizing:

I hate to say it, but the Japanese for Cloud's line there is this

「……俺は幻想の世界の住人だった」

Which means, "I was the inhabitant of a fantasy world".

Dude doesn't say anything about making up a lie. He says the story he told everyone and the Cloud they knew was an illusion made from a mix of the things he heard from Zack and the things he had actually experienced.

@Makoeyes987 may be a condescending ass, that's true, yes -- but he was correct here. You were not.

If I sound annoyed, that's because I am. A lot of your fellow fans have gone to a lot of effort to clear up the confusion the original localization left, and to make available to you information that was once only available in another language. But it is available now, easily and for free.

In my view, your willful insistence upon adherence to a specific misreading of an already flawed localization is just an insult to everyone -- the fans who have put in the translation work; the actual developers whose intentions were made clear many years ago via the supplementary materials; and anyone attempting to engage you in a good-faith exercise.

And frankly? It's just a massive pet peeve for me when Random Fan #3139763 tries to play dismissive gatekeeper of canon in a conversation with people who are actually discussing canon material. =\

Especially when you seemingly couldn't be bothered to so much as run some Japanese text through Google Translate. =/

Also, this?:

It also makes no sense that someone should have to import a book that's written in a foreign language to understand a primary source that was very intentionally pushed to them for consumption, bad localization or not. It's being elitist to insist on that.

Golly, the text in those images I attached looks like English. In a book published in North America.

His mind was shattered by the Jenova Project. He shouldn’t remember his own memories. That was the reason for the Lifestream sequence. Everything he thought he knew was borrowed from somewhere else, right? B

From who precisely would he have been borrowing memories of a private conversation between himself and his long-dead mother? =|

If there had been literally nothing left of his mind and memories, what did he and Tifa fix in the Lifestream? Where do you come up with this stuff?

 

[pigglesthepup]

The variable between Cloud and the other Sephiroth copies is a) Zack, who freed Cloud early and provided him mental stimulation the Jenova cells in his body could latch onto; and b) Tifa, who actually recognized the heap of almost braindead flesh laying at the train station groaning incoherently like the dude in the pipe in Sector 5.


There's not one of those filling-in-the-gaps flashes when Tifa brings it up in the original either ...

There are, however, such flashes (several, actually) in the scene where Tifa finds Cloud at the train station. When he's initially unable to even form a coherent sentence. Until the Jenova in him reacts to Tifa's memories about Cloud and he suddenly becomes functional again.

Precisely as Ultimanias have described what went down there.

Yes, I'm bringing the secondary sources topic back up. You're not even referencing the primary source accurately yet expect everyone else to abandon the secondary ones (also owned and published by Square anyway ...) at your say-so. =/

On that note, @LicoriceAllsorts brought up something else that needs revisiting and emphasizing:



Dude doesn't say anything about making up a lie. He says the story he told everyone and the Cloud they knew was an illusion made from a mix of the things he heard from Zack and the things he had actually experienced.

@Makoeyes987 may be a condescending ass, that's true, yes -- but he was correct here. You were not.

If I sound annoyed, that's because I am. A lot of your fellow fans have gone to a lot of effort to clear up the confusion the original localization left, and to make available to you information that was once only available in another language. But it is available now, easily and for free.

In my view, your willful insistence upon adherence to a specific misreading of an already flawed localization is just an insult to everyone -- the fans who have put in the translation work; the actual developers whose intentions were made clear many years ago via the supplementary materials; and anyone attempting to engage you in a good-faith exercise.

And frankly? It's just a massive pet peeve for me when Random Fan #3139763 tries to play dismissive gatekeeper of canon in a conversation with people who are actually discussing canon material. =\

Especially when you seemingly couldn't be bothered to so much as run some Japanese text through Google Translate. =/

Also, this?:



View attachment 10707View attachment 10708

Golly, the text in those images I attached looks like English. In a book published in North America.



From who precisely would he have been borrowing memories of a private conversation between himself and his long-dead mother? =|

If there had been literally nothing left of his mind and memories, what did he and Tifa fix in the Lifestream? Where do you come up with this stuff?

This is where I’m going to leave the conversation. I have been making my argument for the Remake, not the original game. This is how this conversation started and I’ve come to back to that a few. The original game is the inspiration for the Remake, but it’s not a carbon copy of it.

I understand this website has a strong focus on established canon. The thing is, the devs don’t even seem to want to abide by it themselves. They changed things by bringing in the Whispers. I acknowledge that it has taken years of dedication to compile this stuff. I didn’t mean to be offensive by dismissing it. I’m sorry if I was. It’s just not the same game anymore. All the devs have promised is the main story beats. That’s it.

I figured this would be safe in a Remake thread. It’s already gotten far off topic. I’ll leave it alone.

Good night.

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

Sorry for shitting down your neck. For whatever it's worth, your theory (as it pertains to possible future Remake developments) is an interesting concept for the character's direction, even if I don't see how it lends itself as a parallel to the original circumstances.

 

[pigglesthepup]

Sorry for shitting down your neck. For whatever it's worth, your theory (as it pertains to possible future Remake developments) is an interesting concept for the character's direction, even if I don't see how it lends itself as a parallel to the original circumstances.

It’s okay.

The real plot twist was he was just a grunt who wound up becoming what he desired to be through bizarre circumstances. His struggle to know himself was because he couldn’t accept himself, even before his mind was wiped. It set him up to crumble up under all of it. He was only about to beat his tormentor when his own mind could handle the truth. He was worthy, but because he never got official validation, for him it couldn’t be real.

Even though his true memories were suppressed, he had already wanted to forget himself anyway. That’s why he became someone else.

Night.

Edit: changed “how” to “why,” last sentence

 

[Makoeyes987]

If I sound annoyed, that's because I am. A lot of your fellow fans have gone to a lot of effort to clear up the confusion the original localization left, and to make available to you information that was once only available in another language. But it is available now, easily and for free.

In my view, your willful insistence upon adherence to a specific misreading of an already flawed localization is just an insult to everyone -- the fans who have put in the translation work; the actual developers whose intentions were made clear many years ago via the supplementary materials; and anyone attempting to engage you in a good-faith exercise.

@pigglesthepup This is pretty much why I was, ahem, as some would say, a "condescending ass;" a lot of people went through a significant amount of time, effort, and money to find, purchase, scan, parse, translate, and then disseminate this information to the fandom over the past 14+ years of FFVII. Information that was not readily available to a global audience because unfortunately, it simply wasn't a priority for S-E to localize and show off. Only recently have they begun the work to do this.

To just brush it off earlier, felt extremely frustrating to me. Because yeah, a lot of effort from fans such as @The Twilight Mexican, myself and others went towards actually pinning down what has been unfortunately lost due to poor localization and language barriers inherent to the genre. It's something that's been discussed and wrestled with for years. Even with the Remake doing it's own unique take on such things, you have the connection and purposeful parallels of how they describe these fantasy/science-fiction concepts in the Remake, which are unquestionably connected to how they were previously presented in the Compilation. So I get the fun in theorycrafting but please, if you're going to discuss or engage, let's be on the same page. That's all.

 

[villains23]

This is where I’m going to leave the conversation. I have been making my argument for the Remake, not the original game. This is how this conversation started and I’ve come to back to that a few. The original game is the inspiration for the Remake, but it’s not a carbon copy of it.

I understand this website has a strong focus on established canon. The thing is, the devs don’t even seem to want to abide by it themselves. They changed things by bringing in the Whispers. I acknowledge that it has taken years of dedication to compile this stuff. I didn’t mean to be offensive by dismissing it. I’m sorry if I was. It’s just not the same game anymore. All the devs have promised is the main story beats. That’s it.

I figured this would be safe in a Remake thread. It’s already gotten far off topic. I’ll leave it alone.

Good night.

I'd like to respond to the idea that Cloud may be lying about being a Soldier in the remake because I realized something that I thought was relevant to this idea.

Two things popped up to me: the scene where Aerith mentions Zack's name and Cloud has a bout of involuntary PTSD; and the scene in Shinra HQ where Hojo brings up the idea of Cloud being a Soldier.

When Aerith mentioned Zack's name, Cloud had a bout of involuntary PTSD. Clearly there's a connection here between Cloud hearing Zack's name and his PTSD. Even if Cloud wanted to, he's not allowed to be aware of who Zack is. It seems like the PTSD is related to the presence of his Jenova cells. So it seems like, in the Remake, the devs are keeping the whole Cloud-Jenova-Zack-Soldier illusion thing going.

In ShinraHQ: Hojo tells Cloud that he wasn't a Soldier and Cloud suffers a mild case of PTSD and appears distressed. And then I realized something... the Whispers show up! This should confirm that Cloud doesn't actually know that he wasn't a Soldier. It should confirm that, in both OG and Remake, he genuinely believes that he's a Soldier.

The appearance of the Whispers seems to be the smoking gun here. So I don't think he's lying about being a Soldier in the remake either.

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

In ShinraHQ: Hojo tells Cloud that he wasn't a Soldier and Cloud suffers a mild case of PTSD and appears distressed. And then I realized something... the Whispers show up! This should confirm that Cloud doesn't actually know that he wasn't a Soldier. It should confirm that, in both OG and Remake, he genuinely believes that he's a Soldier.

The appearance of the Whispers seems to be the smoking gun here. So I don't think he's lying about being a Soldier in the remake either.

The Remake Ultimania also confirms that the Whispers appear in that scene "To prevent Cloud from remembering his identity":

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1256008237268078592

 

[Humming]

The Remake Ultimania also confirms that the Whispers appear in that scene "To prevent Cloud from remembering his identity":

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1256008237268078592

I don't really get some of the motivations listed, like they try to normalize something ethereal like the Harbingers of Fate. Do they need to physically manifest in Stargazers Heights just to check on Cloud's status? Is their influence that limited that they really need to pop in and look at Cloud sleeping?

It kinda breaks the supernatural aura that surrounds them if they need to check things that directly instead of being a kind of silent watchers of destiny.

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

They're apparently used to being invisible and incorporeal, though, so physically showing up probably isn't as compromising as it sounds. Also, given the culture of origin here, it's to be expected that supernatural entities -- even deities -- are going to be more limited than having outright omniscience.

I wonder if the Whispers were as freaked out as Cloud and the rest of Avalanche by the fact they could see one another. Kind of like a spider's "they're more scared of you than you are of them" situation.

 

[Makoeyes987]

Cloud and the audience aren't meant to even see the Whispers.

They're only visible because we've come in contact with Aerith. Until Aerith touches Cloud, they're invisible.

In Yuffie's Episode Intermission, they're invisible yet present.

So their "appearance" is merely for our benefit and reflective of their role in Cloud's story. But yes, they're always watching and present, they just are visible because... Something changed and is unique with Aerith's existence.

EDIT: I don't know why I just realized this, but it's extremely likely that the reason Cloud gets hallucinations of the future, is because of Aerith. Before, I thought it was knowledge of the Whispers bleeding or passing onto him, but...

It could actually be Aerith's fault. They begin right after Cloud meets Aerith when he looks up at the Sector 7 pillar.

And Aerith fucking seemed to know something bad was going to happen there, along with her knowing where Marlene was and that she needed to rescue her.

Granted, Aerith's knowledge could be coming from the Whispers too, but.

That really brings it home that there's something anomalous with her existence now.

 

[Odysseus]

Aerith is an SCP confirmed

 

[LicoriceAllsorts]

But why can Rufus see them?

 

[Makoeyes987]

Because Rufus fought/touched Cloud.

Anyone who comes in contact with Aerith, sees the Whispers. If you then come in contact with them, you see them too.

It's like a transmittable condition.

 

[Odysseus]

Plot STD.

Good thing Rufus came prepared.

 

[LicoriceAllsorts]

Why can't Tseng see them, then?

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

Because Rufus fought/touched Cloud.

Anyone who comes in contact with Aerith, sees the Whispers. If you then come in contact with them, you see them too.

It's like a transmittable condition.

And because Tseng didn't slap Aerith this time around, he has to miss out!

Though this does beg the question of why Reno and Rude aren't seeing them as far as we know. Reno at least definitely isn't aware of them in the immediate aftermath of the fight in the church.

Plot STD.

Good thing Rufus came prepared.

So that's what those coin-looking things were ...

 

[LicoriceAllsorts]

Rufus's prophylaxis failed him, then.

 

[Shademp]

A crackpot theory I had recently but that doesn't hold water... Based on my deep hope that the Whispers didn't exist in the "original" timeline, but that they were created as a counter-response to Sephiroth breaking time, is that only the people/spirits present during the unknown post-AC nexus event gain the ability to see the Whispers. But this would require the spirits of Jessie, Wedge etc to still be in the Lifestream and in the general region of where- and when this speculative time-breaking event occurred. Oh well.

 

[KindOfBlue]

When Aerith mentioned Zack's name, Cloud had a bout of involuntary PTSD. Clearly there's a connection here between Cloud hearing Zack's name and his PTSD.

I really wanna know if the fact that Aerith said Zack’s name in the remake when she didn’t actually say it in the OG is gonna come up…makes me wonder if the Whispers view Aerith as just as much a threat to destiny as Sephiroth

And because Tseng didn't slap Aerith this time around, he has to miss out!

I’ve been thinking that maybe if the Whispers considered Aerith getting slapped so important to preserving destiny, but they didn’t, so to what extent is “destiny” the same as the OG story I wonder…I guess my point is that sometimes it gets tricky to equate preserving destiny with preserving the original story because there’s still room for differences that don’t seem to matter too much to the Whispers like the different Honeybee Inn among others

Plot STD.

Good thing Rufus came prepared.

I believe the phrase “stay strapped or get clapped” takes a whole new meaning when referring to his other gun…

 

[Eerie]

I’ve been thinking that maybe if Whispers considered Aerith getting slapped so important to preserving destiny but they didn’t, so to what extent is “destiny” the same as the OG story I wonder…I guess my point is that sometimes it gets tricky to equate preserving destiny with preserving the original story because there’s still room for differences that don’t seem to matter too much to the Whispers like the different Honeybee Inn among others

I think the Whispers care about three things:

- what the people (protags in this case) know, compared to the timeline

- will this action leads to their death (changing the timeline)

- is the general story going on (don't care about the details)

In this case, Aerith's a threat because what she knows is vastly superior to what she used to know. This is why they're trying to "restrain her" like they did in her room in the Shinra tower. Like this, she knows that she can't say too much, or she'll get in trouble, and probably lose more knowledge.

 

[KindOfBlue]

I think the Whispers care about three things:

- what the people (protags in this case) know, compared to the timeline

- will this action leads to their death (changing the timeline)

- is the general story going on (don't care about the details)

In this case, Aerith's a threat because what she knows is vastly superior to what she used to know. This is why they're trying to "restrain her" like they did in her room in the Shinra tower. Like this, she knows that she can't say too much, or she'll get in trouble, and probably lose more knowledge.

It’s funny because if the Whispers really wanted to preserve destiny, the worst thing they could’ve done was make themselves visible to Cloud and the gang since that directly leads to their defeat so I really wanna know what is it about making contact with Aerith that seems to allow this awareness to circumvent the Whispers’ goals...

I keep forgetting this is an LTD thread, sorry lol

 

[LicoriceAllsorts]

Why can Rufus see the Whispers and why are they gathered in such force around the Shinra Building? Is it to protect Shinra from HQ Avalanche's attack? Because Rufus and Shinra have to survive to fire the Sister Ray? Is that why they threw Wedge out the window?

I'm guessing the thing about Aerith is that she's Aerith from the future - or else has been infused with knowledge of the future by the planet. Anyway, she can see them because she knows the future just as they do. Why everybody who touches her, or touches somebody who touched her, should also be able to see them is anyone's guess. Can Wedge see them when they attack in Sector 7? He ought to be able to, but he's not outside. What about the people who are running away, falling down? Are they running because they see the Whispers or because Barret and Jessie are shooting wildly at apparently nothing?

 

[Makoeyes987]

They threw Wedge out the window because he needs to follow the path of his destiny, and the Whispers gathered around the Shinra Building because they were observing and sensing a massive change to destiny that was about to take place, so they were marshalling their forces, so to speak.

Wedge became aware of the Whispers after the Pillar collapse.

And during the Sector 7 whisper attack, if you listen to some NPC dialogue after it, some people could see them, others act like they had no idea what happened and were confused.

The NPCs who were close to Cloud and the others, or were nearby Seventh Heaven saw them.

 

[LicoriceAllsorts]

And yet Reno and Rude can't.

Why are the Whispers still gathering (in enormous numbers) around the Shinra Building after Jenova is gone and Sephiroth is elsewhere? The massive change isn't about to take place there.