SPOILERS LTD Remake — It's like New Coke except ... no, it's exactly like New Coke

[pigglesthepup]

He kinda has to be passive though because there comes a point in the story where both Cloud and the audience are led to believe that he’s not even a person, merely the product of an experiment…there’d be no reason for Cloud to believe it and have a mental breakdown if he was as aware of the lie as somebody would be if they were actively faking it up, so even though Cloud calls himself the “master of his own illusionary world”, I don’t think that’s meant to be taken so literally seeing as he still makes a point to answer Barret’s “pretty damn strong for an illusion” with an explanation of Sephiroth and Jenova’s influence


Well, in the remake we have:
- Cloud falsely remembering Tifa calling out to him as a child
- Cloud constantly being harassed by Sephiroth (and I want to reiterate, the reason Cloud is so special to Sephiroth is likely because he’s the one who managed to defeat him)
- Sephiroth making Cloud stumble through a vision of Nibelheim on fire before mocking him about killing his mother
- Cloud constantly having visions of the future, in particular with allusions to Aerith’s death (an event that Jenova nearly succeeded in having Cloud carry out himself in the OG)
- Cloud briefly turning into a zombie in the Shinra building, stumbling down a hallway and mumbling about Jenova while hearing Sephiroth’s voice during the Nibelheim incident
- Cloud freaking out at the mere mention of Jenova’s name by Aerith
- Cloud clearly still believing himself to be a SOLDIER and Hojo nearly spoiling the reveal before being carted away by the time jannies
- Sephiroth trolling Cloud into killing fate and pursuing him (in actuality being summoned by Sephiroth as we learned in the OG)
There’s just too much going on here with Cloud due to external factors (even more so now than in the OG I’d argue) for me to consider him to be any less of a puppet in Remake

Maybe I should be making my argument this way: like you say, Cloud is special to Sephiroth is likely because he knows Cloud defeated him. The time jannies try to keep things on course because something keeps interfering and trying to change how things occurred in the original game (again, most likely Sephiroth).

Sephiroth pulled out a copy of the original game, sat down and played through it. He took notes on what succeeded and what failed, learned from his mistakes and how he could do better. Sephiroth has decided he's going to create a remake of this game, one in which he wins. He's going to manipulate Cloud so that it actually works in his favor.

Sephiroth is turning Cloud into a liar because that is the point. He noticed the guilt he felt over something that was ultimately not his fault and kicking it up to an eleven. He wants him to feel really, really bad about it. He's turning the successful flukes into the features of his plan. Cloud is still his puppet. I put this in spoiler tags a few pages back because I didn't want to upset someone who may not have wanted to see it, but I'm just gonna post it naked (slightly revised):

Sephiroth knows Cloud's deepest wants and fears. Instead of forcing him to forget, he wants him to remember everything so that Cloud himself will tell the lie. Cloud has always wanted to be a SOLDIER. The mental breaking point will still be Sephiroth showing Zack at Nibelheim, but instead of it being about Cloud not being there, it will be about how Cloud was there. The onus is going to be on Cloud to admit the truth. He's not going to. Admitting it isn't an option because he still hasn't gotten his shame about not making it. Tifa is going to have her crisis of confidence in him, causing him to finally break and fall under Sephiroth's control and turn him into a vegetable. Cloud will have screwed over himself, which is exactly what Sephiroth wants.

Sephiroth has had the party defeat the Whispers. They can't derail his revised plans of world domination by keeping fate on course. And he's out for Cloud.

If we hadn't already played the OG, would we know those memories were false?
Cloud is more of a puppet than he knows, but less of a puppet than Sephiroth would like him to think. A degree of self-awareness is essential; Sephiroth couldn't torment him if he didn't still have some free will left. Jenova never completely controls him, but he (almost) never acts completely freely either. He's on a long leash. It's more fun for Sephiroth that way.

And more effective. And more interesting. And more fun.

Edit: to not double-post

@KindOfBlue

I'll elaborate more on what I mean by Sephiroth taking notes from the original game.

He wants to take out Cloud, right? So he took detailed notes of the Lifestream sequence and Cloud later explaining himself. To really screw with his head, he should go after the things that Cloud himself has in his head.

In the Remake, Sephiroth taunts Cloud about the following:

-being weak
-not being able to save people
-failing
-wanting to become stronger

This all originates from the memory of Tifa falling at Mt Nibel. This memory is also the very one that restores Cloud's mind because it proves that he is human and not just a clone. He's able to recover mentally because of this. It is him remembering him who he actually is, which allows him to break free from Sephiroth's control. Sephiroth, looking at this says, "oh so this is what makes you tick..." What's particularly great about this is is that Sephiroth is a part of this memory too, since the Mt Nibel fall is what motivates Cloud to join SOLDIER to become just like him. So when Cloud falls into the church and has his little flashback to Mt Nibel, Sephiroth now shows up (new to the Remake) and reminds Cloud of this by saying:

"I am your everything."

Because Sephiroth literally did become his everything due to that incident. And he wants Cloud to see him that way again.

But Cloud has too much resolve. He's resisting. Sephiroth has to break him. He's got to take away the sources of his resolve. He has learned that Tifa is the ultimate source of that from what happened when Cloud finally broke at the Northern Crater. He no longer had any willpower left and could not fight back. And it was Tifa's doubts that caused the crisis of confidence. We know this because Cloud tells her it is only her opinion that matters. The Remake reinforces this point when Tifa comments that Cloud has "lost that hard edge." He asks her if it's a bad thing because he is sensitive to her opinion of him. This is one of those flukes that worked in Sephiroth's favor. It's something he should try to make happen again.

He knows how Cloud felt about deceiving everyone, intentional or not. Want to make that guilt worse? Make it real. In order to do that, Cloud has to become aware of the truth. Get him to do the lying all by himself. Instead of trying to deny Cloud his humanity, use it against him so he digs his own grave. It's been proven to Sephiroth that Cloud can kick his ass. Want to take him out? Go for his jugular.

@KindOfBlue

Edit again: the big signal that points to the direction of Cloud becoming a liar

The Alone At Last scene with Tifa:

It starts with her asking him about his time since he left Nibelheim. Not if he really was a SOLDIER or not. He is startled by the question, pause to think about it, moves away and turns his back to her. He tells her vagaries about working for Shinra. She presses again, asking about after he quit, acknowledging that it's a sensitive subject. His response:

He gets mad at her and shuts down the conversation.

He has a problem talking about this, regardless of what he actually remembers (or doesn't remember at all). He's not willing to come out with it and is keeping it hidden. She didn't question his identity or whether or not the things he says are true. But regardless he refuses to answer her. For some reason, he's withholding information that should otherwise be relatively harmless to share. Whatever it is he remembers, he feels it's too sensitive to share. He's already hiding something. This is where it starts.

 

[KindOfBlue]

Sephiroth knows Cloud's deepest wants and fears. Instead of forcing him to forget, he wants him to remember everything so that Cloud himself will tell the lie. Cloud has always wanted to be a SOLDIER. The mental breaking point will still be Sephiroth showing Zack at Nibelheim, but instead of it being about Cloud not being there, it will be about how Cloud was there.

I mean, I dunno if Sephiroth ever really made Cloud forget himself in the first place, I think the Jenova cells suppressed his memories first and then Sephiroth took advantage of that to manipulate Cloud…and so it’s not just Cloud not wanting to admit his past out of shame (though that’s part of it), but he has to actually remember his past before he can come to terms with it, and until his memory is restored in the Lifestream there’s not much he can do about it

I'll elaborate more on what I mean by Sephiroth taking notes from the original game.

He wants to take out Cloud, right? So he took detailed notes of the Lifestream sequence and Cloud later explaining himself. To really screw with his head, he should go after the things that Cloud himself has in his head.

In the Remake, Sephiroth taunts Cloud about the following:

-being weak
-not being able to save people
-failing
-wanting to become stronger

This all originates from the memory of Tifa falling at Mt Nibel. This memory is also the very one that restores Cloud's mind because it proves that he is human and not just a clone. He's able to recover mentally because of this. It is him remembering him who he actually is, which allows him to break free from Sephiroth's control. Sephiroth, looking at this says, "oh so this is what makes you tick..." What's particularly great about this is is that Sephiroth is a part of this memory too, since the Mt Nibel fall is what motivates Cloud to join SOLDIER to become just like him. So when Cloud falls into the church and has his little flashback to Mt Nibel, Sephiroth now shows up (new to the Remake) and reminds Cloud of this by saying:

"I am your everything."

Because Sephiroth literally did become his everything due to that incident. And he wants Cloud to see him that way again.

But Cloud has too much resolve. He's resisting. Sephiroth has to break him. He's got to take away the sources of his resolve. He has learned that Tifa is the ultimate source of that from what happened when Cloud finally broke at the Northern Crater. He no longer had any willpower left and could not fight back. And it was Tifa's doubts that caused the crisis of confidence. We know this because Cloud tells her it is only her opinion that matters. The Remake reinforces this point when Tifa comments that Cloud has "lost that hard edge." He asks her if it's a bad thing because he is sensitive to her opinion of him. This is one of those flukes that worked in Sephiroth's favor. It's something he should try to make happen again.

He knows how Cloud felt about deceiving everyone, intentional or not. Want to make that guilt worse? Make it real. In order to do that, Cloud has to become aware of the truth. Get him to do the lying all by himself. Instead of trying to deny Cloud his humanity, use it against him so he digs his own grave. It's been proven to Sephiroth that Cloud can kick his ass. Want to take him out? Go for his jugular.

I’m inclined to agree with a lot of this, but the question then becomes how much does Sephiroth know exactly? We know he can manipulate the events of the Nibelheim incident because he was actually there himself, but does he know about Cloud blaming himself for Tifa falling off the mountain when they were children after her mother passed away?

We don’t know exactly how much Sephiroth (or Aerith for that matter) knows, so it’s anybody’s guess. But the critical thing to remember here, if what’s true in the OG is still the case here, is that Cloud still remembeed the Nibelheim incident in the OG but had some details wrong. The key memory to healing Cloud is the one of him as a child feeling ignored by Tifa and at fault for her almost falling to her death. That specific memory is forcibly suppressed by Jenova, and it’s the reason why I cannot consider Cloud to be aware of the truth because…well, he just isn’t.

 

[pigglesthepup]

I mean, I dunno if Sephiroth ever really made Cloud forget himself in the first place, I think the Jenova cells suppressed his memories first and then Sephiroth took advantage of that to manipulate Cloud…and so it’s not just Cloud not wanting to admit his past out of shame (though that’s part of it), but he has to actually remember his past before he can come to terms with it, and until his memory is restored in the Lifestream there’s not much he can do about it

No, I wouldn't say Sephiroth specifically made him forget. That was the effects of the Jenova Project, right? Yes, it's taking advantage of the situation.

What I mean about Cloud's guilt is it didn't matter the real cause of the deception. He felt bad about it regardless because of the consequences of it all. That in itself is the goal. If we tell little lies and cause no harm, do we feel bad about it? Usually no. It's the consequences that reinforce our morality. Our empathy tells us not to do something morally objective because we can envision the consequences (if your a psychopath like Sephiroth, you have no empathy and the only consequences you care about are the ones that favor you). Did Cloud realize the consequences of all this before they happened? Absolutely not. It was all by surprise. I pulled up the "Beacause" translation (it's at the timestamp in the link, 4:46:00) for this: Cloud says it's his fault Meteor is coming at them. He sees how the deception has caused the consequences. It's what's driving the guilt.

I’m inclined to agree with a lot of this, but the question then becomes how much does Sephiroth know exactly? We know he can manipulate the events of the Nibelheim incident because he was actually there himself, but does he know about Cloud blaming himself for Tifa falling off the mountain when they were children after her mother passed away?

It's that he knew to pull up the Nibelheim incident in the first place. He does it to point out that Cloud was not the SOLDIER that was there, but it was someone else. How does he know that Cloud already established himself as being the SOLDIER? He's in Cloud's head and can access his memories. That's the rational for the fake memory of Tifa noticing him when they're kids, right? It plays off Cloud's wants and fears. That information has to be pulled from somewhere or it can't be created. Assume Sephiroth knows everything in Cloud's head.

We don’t know exactly how much Sephiroth (or Aerith for that matter) knows, so it’s anybody’s guess. But the critical thing to remember here, if what’s true in the OG is still the case here, is that Cloud still remembeed the Nibelheim incident in the OG but had some details wrong. The key memory to healing Cloud is the one of him as a child feeling ignored by Tifa and at fault for her almost falling to her death. That specific memory is forcibly suppressed by Jenova, and it’s the reason why I cannot consider Cloud to be aware of the truth because…well, he just isn’t.

It's Sephiroth that's in control of Jenova, is it not? I believe it is what the devs have said, right? (Fine, I'll admit that Ultimanias are important for clarifying stuff like this) It's why Sephiroth can use the power of Jenova at will. It's why he can intentionally pull up the Nibelheim incident and know exactly what to do with it. If he is in control of Jenova, he can control the memory suppression. He can have Cloud be aware of the truth if he so chooses. It is something he absolutely can control.

Case of Lifestream: Black is about Sephiroth hanging out in the Lifestream. It's implied that the memories of past, present and future flow in the Lifestream. Protecting that flow is what would create the Whispers. Sephiroth has accessed the memories of the past. He has an extra link to Cloud through Jenova as well. He can see why he failed in the OG and read Cloud's brain. I'm assuming that's exactly what he's done.

Thank you for your sincere response. I appreciate these kind of discussions.

 

[LicoriceAllsorts]

Sephiroth pulled out a copy of the original game, sat down and played through it. He took notes on what succeeded and what failed, learned from his mistakes and how he could do better. Sephiroth has decided he's going to create a remake of this game, one in which he wins. He's going to manipulate Cloud so that it actually works in his favor.

I really enjoy your posts, pigglespup. I like the style and clarity with which you write. I particularly enjoyed this paragraph because it elegantly and succinctly sums up the Remake for me.

 

[pigglesthepup]

I really enjoy your posts, pigglespup. I like the style and clarity with which you write. I particularly enjoyed this paragraph because it elegantly and succinctly sums up the Remake for me.

Thank you. How many times has Sephiroth failed at world domination at this point? He’s finally decided to figure it out.

 

[LNK]

Sephiroth pulled out a copy of the original game, sat down and played through it. He took notes on what succeeded and what failed, learned from his mistakes and how he could do better. Sephiroth has decided he's going to create a remake of this game, one in which he wins. He's going to manipulate Cloud so that it actually works in his favor.

So then you think Sephiroth summons meteor, which destroys the planet and all it's inhabitants?

To me, that could work, if it wasn't for the creators saying remake story will go as OG story did

 

[pigglesthepup]

So then you think Sephiroth summons meteor, which destroys the planet and all it's inhabitants?

To me, that could work, if it wasn't for the creators saying remake story will go as OG story did

I posted this under the “Does Aerith Live?” spoiler thread: I think they are going to make the player have Cloud choose a timeline. Choose the one with Zack and Aerith live, Sephiroth wins. Where they die, the world is saved. And the point of Zack being alive is to foil Cloud and Aerith: he instantly disproves the SOLDIER-Cloud illusion and gives Aerith a reason to want to live. Sephiroth screwed with him dying for this purpose.

They can keep the main beats of the OG story intact with this. For example: Cloud still turns into a vegetable because he loses his resolve when Tifa has her crisis of confidence. The specific details of how are slightly altered, but the main reason is the same. She doesn’t know what to believe because Sephiroth shows her exactly what she remembers, but it contradicts with what Cloud’s story. Main beat, just what makes it happen is slightly tweaked.

Events from here on out are technically up for grabs since the Whispers are dead. But Sephiroth leads Cloud everywhere up to the Northern Crater, right? Cloud wasn’t pursuing Sephiroth, he was being summoned by him, correct? Sephiroth is still in control right now, even with the Whispers dead. That’s why he went back and played through the original game: he was in a position to win, but didn’t execute it right. He studied what happened and is restarting it so that he wins.

Edit: Zack being alive somewhere is probably to foil Aerith more than Cloud. He’s most likely in a different timeline (different reality), so it’d be hard to just run into him. But Aerith can sense when people die, and she seemed to sense his presence when they passed by each other at the end. The point is to sense that he’s alive, somewhere, to deter her from accepting her original fate to die. She still, of course, is going to die somehow. She has to to save the planet. The change is just how.

 

[villains23]

I'm saying Cloud lied .

I'm a little confused. You're saying that Cloud is deliberately pretending to be a 1st Class Soldier?

 

[pigglesthepup]

I'm a little confused. You're saying that Cloud is deliberately pretending to be a 1st Class Soldier?

What’s the rest of my sentence? Please give me the context. I have given a lot of context of for why Cloud would being lying. I know the context is missing because I know what I have written. I’ll answer the question. Just provide what I actually said.

@villains23 As in please provide it. I’m not trying to be an a-hole. I will legitimately provide my reasoning. Give me exactly what I was talking about.

 

[villains23]

What’s the rest of my sentence? Please give me the context. I have given a lot of context of for why Cloud would being lying. I know the context is missing because I know what I have written. I’ll answer the question. Just provide what I actually said.

@villains23 As in please provide it. I’m not trying to be an a-hole. I will legitimately provide my reasoning. Give me exactly what I was talking about.

I'm reading through the past couple of pages, and it seemed as though you and Makoeyes were in a discussion about whether or not Cloud was lying about his Soldier identity.

The question seems to be "Is Cloud lying about his Soldier identity." Is that not what the discussion is about or am I missing something here?

 

[LNK]

I posted this under the “Does Aerith Live?” spoiler thread: I think they are going to make the player have Cloud choose a timeline. Choose the one with Zack and Aerith live, Sephiroth wins. Where they die, the world is saved. And the point of Zack being alive is to foil Cloud and Aerith: he instantly disproves the SOLDIER-Cloud illusion and gives Aerith a reason to want to live. Sephiroth screwed with him dying for this purpose.

They can keep the main beats of the OG story intact with this. For example: Cloud still turns into a vegetable because he loses his resolve when Tifa has her crisis of confidence. The specific details of how are slightly altered, but the main reason is the same. She doesn’t know what to believe because Sephiroth shows her exactly what she remembers, but it contradicts with what Cloud’s story. Main beat, just what makes it happen is slightly tweaked.

Events from here on out are technically up for grabs since the Whispers are dead. But Sephiroth leads Cloud everywhere up to the Northern Crater, right? Cloud wasn’t pursuing Sephiroth, he was being summoned by him, correct? Sephiroth is still in control right now, even with the Whispers dead. That’s why he went back and played through the original game: he was in a position to win, but didn’t execute it right. He studied what happened and is restarting it so that he wins.

Edit: Zack being alive somewhere is probably to foil Aerith more than Cloud. He’s most likely in a different timeline (different reality), so it’d be hard to just run into him. But Aerith can sense when people die, and she seemed to sense his presence when they passed by each other at the end. The point is to sense that he’s alive, somewhere, to deter her from accepting her original fate to die. She still, of course, is going to die somehow. She has to to save the planet. The change is just how.

I can't picture them giving us the option to essentially allow Sephiroth to win in the main game though. Maybe in a dlc or some other media as an alternate ending. Like ff15 did with episode ignis and dawn of the future.

I'm still basing my thoughts off of remake essentially taking up the same space as OG in the timeline of this series. Sephiroth winning, wouldn't make sense in that case. If remake is a sequel to DoC, I can see Sephiroth winning. In fact, I wouldn't even mind that. I actually loved that ff15 didn't have a traditional happy ending

Oh, and I still think Zack is actually dead.

 

[pigglesthepup]

@villains23

Thank you. Here's the thing:

There are differences in what Cloud remembers in the Remake and the original game. The differences in the Remake did not fit the reasoning provided for the original game because Sephiroth is from the future with knowledge of the events of the original. Cloud remembers his promise to Tifa all by himself, without her aid, which is very suspicious because she’s the foil to the whole Jenovaroth mind-control thing. Cloud couldn’t remember this on his own in the OG and Sephiroth has a heavy interest in not having him remember it either. It has been suggested that there are “Jenova-forced” memories, things Jenovaroth wants Cloud to remember to shape his mind. My question about the promise is why and how is this memory coming through? He can remember this on his own, it’s toxic to the Jenovaroth plan, and it’s something that is implied to have been borrowed from Tifa through Jenova in the OG as well. It doesn’t mesh with him remembering nothing and borrowing everything from someone/somewhere else and Sephiroth’s interests. But it still gets through. It makes me question what else Cloud actually does remember about himself. What else is getting through?

Who is Cloud, really? He’s suppose to be an active character in this story. He’s the main protagonist, after all. He has wants, and as the main, active character in this story, should be pursuing those wants. He is furthermore intended to be human. Lying is human nature. We do it all the time, for different reasons under different circumstances. Did he specifically intend to lie about being a first-class SOLDIER? Probably not. Was he stumbled upon by an old friend at a train station that he has always had a very strong interest in when he was in really rough shape? Yes. Humans make the best of their circumstances to survive. Sometimes it even helps them get what they want. It in no way makes someone of terrible character or a bad person. It’s just being human. Unfortunately, the very things that make humans human gets exploited by alien-driven psychopaths and those humans end up doing things they don’t intend to do. They didn’t intend to hurt anyone, but they get hurt because someone or something takes advantage of their human weaknesses. Hopefully the simple humans find a way to recover and bounce back, and that’s what I feel Cloud’s story is actually about.

Did he lie? If he did, it was only human. Is it a flaw? Well, we all have them, so should that be a problem? But specifically about being a first-class SOLDIER, as you asked? If he did, intentionally or not, would you blame him for it? I wouldn’t. He was confused and it made sense to him at the time. He later regretted the whole lie, whether it was his own or not, and felt terribly guilty about it. Because he’s human. It’s what makes him a compelling character.

I hope that makes sense. Lying isn’t clear-cut. Unless you’re a total psychopath, like Sephiroth.

I gotta go to sleep. Thank you and goodnight.

 

[villains23]

@villains23 ans23

Thank you. Here's the thing:

There are differences in what Cloud remembers in the Remake and the original game. The differences in the Remake did not fit the reasoning provided for the original game because Sephiroth is from the future with knowledge of the events of the original. Cloud remembers his promise to Tifa all by himself, without her aid, which is very suspicious because she’s the foil to the whole Jenovaroth mind-control thing. Cloud couldn’t remember this on his own in the OG and Sephiroth has a heavy interest in not having him remember it either. It has been suggested that there are “Jenova-forced” memories, things Jenovaroth wants Cloud to remember to shape his mind. My question about the promise is why and how is this memory coming through? He can remember this on his own, it’s toxic to the Jenovaroth plan, and it’s something that is implied to have been borrowed from Tifa through Jenova in the OG as well. It doesn’t mesh with him remembering nothing and borrowing everything from someone/somewhere else and Sephiroth’s interests. But it still gets through. It makes me question what else Cloud actually does remember about himself. What else is getting through?

Who is Cloud, really? He’s suppose to be an active character in this story. He’s the main protagonist, after all. He has wants, and as the main, active character in this story, should be pursuing those wants. He is furthermore intended to be human. Lying is human nature. We do it all the time, for different reasons under different circumstances. Did he specifically intend to lie about being a first-class SOLDIER? Probably not. Was he stumbled upon by an old friend at a train station that he has always had a very strong interest in when he was in really rough shape? Yes. Humans make the best of their circumstances to survive. Sometimes it even helps them get what they want. It in no way makes someone of terrible character or a bad person. It’s just being human. Unfortunately, the very things that make humans human gets exploited by alien-driven psychopaths and those humans end up doing things they don’t intend to do. They didn’t intend to hurt anyone, but they get hurt because someone or something takes advantage of their human weaknesses. Hopefully the simple humans find a way to recover and bounce back, and that’s what I feel Cloud’s story is actually about.

Did he lie? If he did, it was only human. Is it a flaw? Well, we all have them, so should that be a problem? But specifically about being a first-class SOLDIER, as you asked? If he did, intentionally or not, would you blame him for it? I wouldn’t. He was confused and it made sense to him at the time. He later regretted regretted the whole lie, whether it was his own or not, and felt terribly guilty about it. Because he’s human. It’s what makes him a compelling character.

I hope that makes sense. Lying isn’t clear-cut. Unless you’re a total psychopath, like Sephiroth.

I gotta go to sleep. Thank you and goodnight.

The thing is that the game has made it clear that he was not deliberately lying about his Soldier status. The point of his breakdown in the Whirlwind Maze was that he had begun to doubt his identity as a Soldier, and that was what led to him ultimately breaking down. Up until that point, he genuinely believed that he was a 1st Class Soldier.

I understand your suggestion that maybe he might've deliberately lied about his Soldier status, as a way to cope with his shortcomings and issues when he was found by his childhood friend whom he had a crush on. But it's made clear that that wasn't the case, and that he legitimately believed in the illusion of being a !st Class Soldier.

I think that might be the source of our confusion here (or at least my own confusion.)

On a related note, if he was lying, then the part of the lifestream scene in which he remembers the truth about his role in the Nibelheim incident wouldn't be valid. Because that's where he discovers the truth about his identity. And it's where he remembers the true 1st Class Soldier who was there - Zack.

 

[pigglesthepup]

The thing is that the game has made it clear that he was not deliberately lying about his Soldier status. The point of his breakdown in the Whirlwind Maze was that he had begun to doubt his identity as a Soldier, and that was what led to him ultimately breaking down. Up until that point, he genuinely believed that he was a 1st Class Soldier.

I understand your suggestion that maybe he might've deliberately lied about his Soldier status, as a way to cope with his shortcomings and issues when he was found by his childhood friend whom he had a crush on. But it's made clear that that wasn't the case, and that he legitimately believed in the illusion of being a !st Class Soldier.

I think that might be the source of our confusion here (or at least my own confusion.)

On a related note, if he was lying, then the part of the lifestream scene in which he remembers the truth about his role in the Nibelheim incident wouldn't be valid. Because that's where he discovers the truth about his identity. And it's where he remembers the true 1st Class Soldier who was there - Zack.

This is all in the context of the original game, yes? If so, that’s fine. I’m not questioning that. My point is about the Remake and how the explanation for the OG no longer adds up:

In the Lifestream sequence, the memory of the promise is shown to not be good enough because Cloud could not remember it own his own. It is implied that memory was actually borrowed from Tifa by Cloud unknowingly using the Jenova cells in his body. And he did not remember it on his own when it is first recalled early on the game. She has to aid him to remember. He forgot it because his mind was shattered and the coaxing/Jenova influence brought it back.

In the Remake, Cloud remembers the promise all by himself. Tifa is not present. She does not say, “you made a promise to me!” because she’s literally not there, so she can’t influence him to recall it. He’s literally off somewhere else, away from her. He’s actually just staring at a fan, which reminds him of the windmill on the water tower. There’s no harsh flash like the rest of his flashbacks. It’s a smooth transition. And then he has the memory. This is the total opposite of how it happened in the OG. Something is different here.

His mind was shattered by the Jenova Project. He shouldn’t remember his own memories. That was the reason for the Lifestream sequence. Everything he thought he knew was borrowed from somewhere else, right? But, in the Remake, he remembers the promise as his own memory. If the same reasons for his mind being what it was in the OG hold true, this shouldn’t happen. Furthermore, Sephiroth has an strong interest in getting Cloud as far away from Tifa as possible. Why does Cloud have this memory by himself, and why does Sephiroth let it happen? What’s going on? This is why I have my suspicions.

I hope that clarifies where I’m coming from. Again, I’m gonna try to sleep. Not your fault if I don’t.

 

[villains23]

This is all in the context of the original game, yes? If so, that’s fine. I’m not questioning that. My point is about the Remake and how the explanation for the OG no longer adds up:

In the Lifestream sequence, the memory of the promise is shown to not be good enough because Cloud could not remember it own his own. It is implied that memory was actually borrowed from Tifa by Cloud unknowingly using the Jenova cells in his body. And he did not remember it on his own when it is first recalled early on the game. She has to aid him to remember. He forgot it because his mind was shattered and the coaxing/Jenova influence brought it back.

In the Remake, Cloud remembers the promise all by himself. Tifa is not present. She does not say, “you made a promise to me!” because she’s literally not there, so she can’t influence him to recall it. He’s literally off somewhere else, away from her. He’s actually just staring at a fan, which reminds him of the windmill on the water tower. There’s no harsh flash like the rest of his flashbacks. It’s a smooth transition. And then he has the memory. This is the total opposite of how it happened in the OG. Something is different here.

His mind was shattered by the Jenova Project. He shouldn’t remember his own memories. That was the reason for the Lifestream sequence. Everything he thought he knew was borrowed from somewhere else, right? But, in the Remake, he remembers the promise as his own memory. If the same reasons for his mind being what it was in the OG hold true, this shouldn’t happen. Furthermore, Sephiroth has an strong interest in getting Cloud as far away from Tifa as possible. Why does Cloud have this memory by himself, and why does Sephiroth let it happen? What’s going on? This is why I have my suspicions.

I hope that clarifies where I’m coming from. Again, I’m gonna try to sleep. Not your fault if I don’t.

Please, do not lose sleep over a reply to me. If you wish you can always reply tomorrow or another time, or not at all if you'd like. I really should be getting to bed myself.

The promise scenes in the OG and Remake are definitely interesting. From what I understand, in the whirlwind maze Sephiroth does claim that the Jenova cells in Cloud's body has played a part in creating his identity through Tifa's memories, but there were some details about the promise scene which I was always kind of confused about. In OG, when Cloud recalled the memory of the promise, he was able to remember that he was getting cold, and that he thought Tifa would never come. The idea that Cloud was able to remember feeling cold, and that he thought Tifa would never come gave me the impression that he was able to remember the memory on his own. Tifa reminded him about it for sure, but I got the impression that Cloud was able to recall it on his own. In the lifestream, Tifa acknowledges this as well. She asks him,"Did you imagine this sky? No, you remembered it." She tells him, "I still believe you're the Cloud from Nibelheim... But you don't believe in yourself." So Tifa is suggesting that Cloud really did remember it here. The problem appears to be that Cloud has lost confidence in himself, and thus doesn't believe this to be a memory which he consciously recalled (and an experience that he truely lived through). In short, I'm not sure if Cloud's memory of the promise scene in the OG was created from his Jenova cells, because, from what I've just described, it seemed as though he really did consciously recall the memory.

In the remake, his flashback isn't triggered by Tifa as you've mentioned and was instead triggered by the sight of a fan. He's able to recall this memory on his own, and as you've mentioned he didn't suffer from any PTSD symptoms so this might very well be an accurate memory.

So my general impression is that, although he was reminded of the promise in different ways in the OG and Remake, it seems like he was able to remember the events of that night on his own in both games.

I don't know if this has been confirmed by the ultimanias (not talking about the Jenova-Tifa-memory thing at the train station - I'm referring to the memory of the promise scene). If the OG promise scene was indeed created entirely by his Jenova cells, then yes it would contrast with the Remake. In the remake, he seems to remember the events of the promise scene on his own. If it is confirmed that his memory of the promise in the OG was entirely a product of his Jenova cells (and assuming that the J cells has nothing to do with this memory in the Remake), then it would be a difference between the two games and could suggest that some things might be different here (possible influence of Jenova or Sephiroth as you're suggesting? Or it can be a retcon).

In short, to me it seems like in both games he was able to remember the events of the promise scene on his own, although he was triggered in different ways. (Again, maybe an ultimania does confirm that his OG memory was a product of his Jenova cells, I don't know).

Alright I'm off to bed. I'll check back tomorrow and if I have anything to say I'll let you know.

PS: Wanted to add: at the point where Cloud remembers his promise in the Remake, he has already reunited with Tifa. So the Jenova-Tifa-Memory thing that occured in the OG at the train station (from what I understand), would have already happened. So what I'm suggesting is that the triggers are different (Tifa reminding him vs fan), but his recollection of that memory are the same (he remembers the events accurately on his own and are not a product of his J cells). In short, his remembrance of both memories are the same, only the triggers are different.

 

[LicoriceAllsorts]

Hmm, thinking about this...

The developers obviously decided to change some details of the plot between the Reactor 1 bombing and Reactor 5. In the OG, Tifa has to beg Cloud to join them for the second bombing run and Barret pays him upfront ("this was Marlene's school money"). In the Remake, Cloud's willing to go on the Reactor 5 mission, but Barret decides his services are no longer required and he leaves, crestfallen, only for the Whispers to intervene the next morning.

In the OG, the "Promise" scene took place within the context of Tifa begging for Cloud to join Avalanche. She reminds him of the Promise in a last-ditch effort to get him to stay.

Since the Remake no longer has Tifa begging Cloud to stay and work for Avalanche, the Promise scene had to be triggered in some other way.

Presumably the change - from Avalanche begging Cloud to stay, to Avalanche giving Cloud the boot - was made in order to give the Whispers something to "correct". I'm guessing the developers thinking went something like "How can we show the role of the Whispers is to put the plot back on track -> What's a good place for the plot to go off the rail? -> Plot can go off track if Avalanche sack Cloud -> Can't have the Promise scene there any more -> Okay, move the Promise scene."

 

[pigglesthepup]

Please, do not lose sleep over a reply to me. If you wish you can always reply tomorrow or another time, or not at all if you'd like. I really should be getting to bed myself.

The promise scenes in the OG and Remake are definitely interesting. From what I understand, in the whirlwind maze Sephiroth does claim that the Jenova cells in Cloud's body has played a part in creating his identity through Tifa's memories, but there were some details about the promise scene which I was always kind of confused about. In OG, when Cloud recalled the memory of the promise, he was able to remember that he was getting cold, and that he thought Tifa would never come. The idea that Cloud was able to remember feeling cold, and that he thought Tifa would never come gave me the impression that he was able to remember the memory on his own. Tifa reminded him about it for sure, but I got the impression that Cloud was able to recall it on his own. In the lifestream, Tifa acknowledges this as well. She asks him,"Did you imagine this sky? No, you remembered it." She tells him, "I still believe you're the Cloud from Nibelheim... But you don't believe in yourself." So Tifa is suggesting that Cloud really did remember it here. The problem appears to be that Cloud has lost confidence in himself, and thus doesn't believe this to be a memory which he consciously recalled (and an experience that he truely lived through). In short, I'm not sure if Cloud's memory of the promise scene in the OG was created from his Jenova cells, because, from what I've just described, it seemed as though he really did consciously recall the memory.

This is a fantastic paragraph. I love how you included all these details. There seems to be some complexity to it all, right? Sephiroth is a known psychopath, so lying to manipulate a situation isn't out of the question for him. It's most likely what he did here. Cloud's sense of self had been totally destroyed, making him easy to manipulate. Cloud just believed him because he didn't have another source to tell him otherwise. He legit could not stand up for himself. Again, beautifully stated. Excellent. I love it.

In the remake, his flashback isn't triggered by Tifa as you've mentioned and was instead triggered by the sight of a fan. He's able to recall this memory on his own, and as you've mentioned he didn't suffer from any PTSD symptoms so this might very well be an accurate memory.

So my general impression is that, although he was reminded of the promise in different ways in the OG and Remake, it seems like he was able to remember the events of that night on his own in both games.

I don't know if this has been confirmed by the ultimanias (not talking about the Jenova-Tifa-memory thing at the train station - I'm referring to the memory of the promise scene). If the OG promise scene was indeed created entirely by his Jenova cells, then yes it would contrast with the Remake. In the remake, he seems to remember the events of the promise scene on his own. If it is confirmed that his memory of the promise in the OG was entirely a product of his Jenova cells (and assuming that the J cells has nothing to do with this memory in the Remake), then it would be a difference between the two games and could suggest that some things might be different here (possible influence of Jenova or Sephiroth as you're suggesting? Or it can be a retcon).

In short, to me it seems like in both games he was able to remember the events of the promise scene on his own, although he was triggered in different ways. (Again, maybe an ultimania does confirm that his OG memory was a product of his Jenova cells, I don't know).

What I've gathered of the interpretion of the Ultimanias is that it was just straight all Jenova. If that was the case, the details you described don't fit. It's exactly why I don't think it was all just Jenova. There has to be some other variables in this, one of them being Cloud because it's him we're talking about. And the promise scene in the OG is long before Sephiroth shows up and even has any kind of interest in Cloud, so he can't be a factor. If it was just about keeping Cloud in Midgar because that's where Jenova is, then Cloud can still just walk out of Seventh Heaven and go live with the other guy in the Sector 5 pipe. There's no reason Jenova would have Cloud remember the promise in the OG (I talked about it being super useful to Jenovaroth for the Remake a couple posts back).

Alright I'm off to bed. I'll check back tomorrow and if I have anything to say I'll let you know.

PS: Wanted to add: at the point where Cloud remembers his promise in the Remake, he has already reunited with Tifa. So the Jenova-Tifa-Memory thing that occured in the OG at the train station (from what I understand), would have already happened. So what I'm suggesting is that the triggers are different (Tifa reminding him vs fan), but his recollection of that memory are the same (he remembers the events accurately on his own and are not a product of his J cells). In short, his remembrance of both memories are the same, only the triggers are different.

Yes. It all fits with him remembering it on his own. It's just that it's be suggested that he doesn't remember anything on his own. But it seems that he actually does. It's made me wonder what's really going on with all of it.

Hope you slept well.

Hmm, thinking about this...

The developers obviously decided to change some details of the plot between the Reactor 1 bombing and Reactor 5. In the OG, Tifa has to beg Cloud to join them for the second bombing run and Barret pays him upfront ("this was Marlene's school money"). In the Remake, Cloud's willing to go on the Reactor 5 mission, but Barret decides his services are no longer required and he leaves, crestfallen, only for the Whispers to intervene the next morning.

The characters seem to have some agency outside of the Whispers, don't they? Fate doesn't appear to be an absolute thing. Major event's seem to be their concern.

In the OG, the "Promise" scene took place within the context of Tifa begging for Cloud to join Avalanche. She reminds him of the Promise in a last-ditch effort to get him to stay.

Since the Remake no longer has Tifa begging Cloud to stay and work for Avalanche, the Promise scene had to be triggered in some other way.

Presumably the change - from Avalanche begging Cloud to stay, to Avalanche giving Cloud the boot - was made in order to give the Whispers something to "correct". I'm guessing the developers thinking went something like "How can we show the role of the Whispers is to put the plot back on track -> What's a good place for the plot to go off the rail? -> Plot can go off track if Avalanche sack Cloud -> Can't have the Promise scene there any more -> Okay, move the Promise scene."

Personally, I think they changed it to show Cloud wants to be with Tifa (back on topic!). Yeah, they do have to establish the Whisper's role, but I don't think it was the only reason. Cloud gets rejected, goes out and gets in a fight (typical Cloud). He does find his way back to his room, which is right next to Marco's, but he doesn't just stay there and later goes out on that midnight rendezvous. Marco doesn't seem to respond to other's interactions and only does something for Jenovaroth's purposes.

Cloud and Tifa did have that conversation at the bar where she tells him she feels trapped. It was before Barrett officially gave Cloud the boot, but she probably knew it was going to happen, so it'd be weird for her to bring up the promise to convince him to stay with Avalanche. But she also doesn't beg him to just not leave her regardless. They could've done it like the OG where Tifa begs right there, but they didn't. Interesting.

Edit: something else I've now noticed Cloud remembering on his own: his mom. Not just the idea of his mom, like he could import from Tifa or something, but a specific conversation that was between just him and his mom. Only two people present there and one of them is long dead. He had to recall that all by himself. In the Remake, I don't even think it has one of those PTSD flashes either. He just remembers it.

 

[LicoriceAllsorts]

Yes, the change was necessary for a number of narrative reasons.

By the time Cloud and Tifa have their conversation at the bar, the game has already established (IMHO) that he's planning to stick around for a while. Cloud and Tifa have agreed they're going to go out on the town together. Then, before they enter the bar, they have this conversation:

Tifa: Yeah, I'm feeling it a bit too. Hey... Do you think you'll stick around a little longer?

Cloud: Maybe. Work for a minute, build up some savings...

Tifa: I see. In that case, wanna head back out and look for more gigs?

So it would be out of character for Tifa, as well as narratively redundant, if she were to suddenly turn around at the bar, beg him to stay, and remind him of his promise. Remake Tifa's modus operandi for keeping Cloud under her eye is to fix him up with money-making opportunities so that he wants to stay in Sector 7, and this she has successfully done. Avalanche isn't his only source of income. Having her play the promise card when he's already pretty much said he'll stay would make her look clingy and desperate, which in turn would have a knock-on effect where Jessie plays up the clinginess for "psych" lols.

If they'd added the promise scene to the bar scene, for me it would feel as if they'd jammed it in there not because the narrative called for it at that point, but because that's where it was before. The solution they came up with is much smoother and more natural.

 

[pigglesthepup]

Yes, the change was necessary for a number of narrative reasons.

By the time Cloud and Tifa have their conversation at the bar, the game has already established (IMHO) that he's planning to stick around for a while. Cloud and Tifa have agreed they're going to go out on the town together. Then, before they enter the bar, they have this conversation:



So it would be out of character for Tifa, as well as narratively redundant, if she were to suddenly turn around at the bar, beg him to stay, and remind him of his promise. Remake Tifa's modus operandi for keeping Cloud under her eye is to fix him up with money-making opportunities so that he wants to stay in Sector 7, and this she has successfully done. Avalanche isn't his only source of income. Having her play the promise card when he's already pretty much said he'll stay would make her look clingy and desperate, which in turn would have a knock-on effect where Jessie plays up the clinginess for "psych" lols.

If they'd added the promise scene to the bar scene, for me it would feel as if they'd jammed it in there not because the narrative called for it at that point, but because that's where it was before. The solution they came up with is much smoother and more natural.

Agree with all of the above.

I just had a thought:

Cloud confidently gives the flower to Tifa.

"It has been five years. A guy can change."

Does he remember hiding from her? If so, that's a smoking gun.

 

[LicoriceAllsorts]

I'm not saying it isn't. It could well be.
I'm just saying there's another possibility.
Cloud could be confabulating, filling in the blanks using the clues Tifa is giving him. Like I said before, IRL dementia patients are sometimes very skilled at this.
It would go thus:

Tifa says, "How sweet. When did you get so thoughtful?"
Cloud, or Cloud's subconscious, thinks: I used to be less thoughtful? Oh yeah, yeah, that's right - I must have been a thoughtless kid back when I was a teenager, because Tifa thinks I've changed. That must be it.
Cloud: "It's been five years. A guy can change."

 

[KindOfBlue]

Yeah I don’t think Tifa helping Cloud remember the promise in the OG was ever meant to imply that it was ever a memory being suppressed since we don’t see the usual behavior we get when Cloud is struggling with his memories, much like how he remembers his mom without any difficulty

 

[pigglesthepup]

I'm not saying it isn't. It could well be.
I'm just saying there's another possibility.
Cloud could be confabulating, filling in the blanks using the clues Tifa is giving him. Like I said before, IRL dementia patients are sometimes very skilled at this.
It would go thus:

Tifa says, "How sweet. When did you get so thoughtful?"
Cloud, or Cloud's subconscious, thinks: I used to be less thoughtful? Oh yeah, yeah, that's right - I must have been a thoughtless kid back when I was a teenager, because Tifa thinks I've changed. That must be it.
Cloud: "It's been five years. A guy can change."

Totally a possibility. What I was getting at is the point of the promise was to reunite with her (because why else is it important to begin with), but for him SOLDIER was a requirement. He did know that she wanted to see him again, but he hid from her because of his shame. He prioritized that shame over her feelings, hence being thoughtless of her.

That part that sticks out to me is the reference to that specific point in time, five years ago. And that something has changed about him since then, that he believes he made SOLDIER. I saw somewhere that in the Ultimania Material coming out soon is that he's able to give her the flower with confidence he somehow learned from Zack. Either he saw how Zack was with the ladies and is mimicking it or because he literally thinks he's Zack. Interesting.

Yeah I don’t think Tifa helping Cloud remember the promise in the OG was ever meant to imply that it was ever a memory being suppressed since we don’t see the usual behavior we get when Cloud is struggling with his memories, much like how he remembers his mom without any difficulty

His mom is a part of who he is. The promise is too. It's why I question it being all Jenova.

 

[KindOfBlue]

His mom is a part of who he is. The promise is too. It's why I question it being all Jenova.

I think the extent to what Jenova’s influence is varies from scene to scene. So the memory of Cloud and his mother for instance, the conversation itself presumably actually happened, it’s just that Cloud wasn’t a SOLDIER but a regular ol’ security officer. On the other hand, when Cloud tries to remember when and how he joined SOLIDER, he freaks out because essentially there’s no real life event that his brain can subconsciously create a false memory from. He can at least misremember the Nibelheim event because he was still actually there to witness it, so his brain can at least try to fill in the blanks.

I actually speculated Tifa calling out to Cloud to be a false memory months before it was confirmed because the version of the “Anxiety” theme that plays in that scene is given the subtitle “False Memories” in the OST Plus tracklist. So whatever these devs are cooking up, they’re definitely playing the long game.

There’s a lot about Jenova’s intentions that’s not always clear too, so much like my earlier answer of “because Cloud’s the main character”, sometimes the answer to our questions is “because the plot says so” lol. It’s funny to me that this would come up in the LTD thread of all places because often times you hear the argument that the romance is up for interpretation but I’d argue what we’re discussing here is WAY more up for interpretation than the love triangle lol.

I guess I look at what Cloud says about “the combination of Jenova cells, Sephiroth’s strong will, and my own weakness are what created me” and I attribute whatever makes sense to each respective character’s abilities. Cloud’s got an inferiority complex but he’s not delusional, at least not on his own as far as what we’ve seen. The Jenova cells suppress parts of his personality and memories that are connected to Cloud’s weakness (whether or not that was targeted or if it’s just a plot convenience is anyone’s guess, I suppose) and that’s what allows him to actually believe the lie.

So by the time Cloud reaches Midgar, his brain has already been damaged by the mako poisoning and Jenova infusion, but reuniting with Tifa allows Jenova to copy her memories of Cloud, to which Cloud’s broken brain attempts to fill in the gaps. And then Sephiroth takes Cloud’s already weak spirit combined with his damaged mind and uses it to mercilessly troll Cloud. I like to think Sephiroth appearing early in Remake is him trying to sow doubt in Cloud early on this time, but the extent of Sephiroth’s knowledge is still a mystery that I’m very much looking forward to having answered.

I know some people are expecting a happy reunion with Zack and perhaps we’ll get something of the sort, but I’m really looking forward to if Zack is used to just completely mindscrew Cloud, Aerith, the audience…

 

[pigglesthepup]

I think the extent to what Jenova’s influence is varies from scene to scene. So the memory of Cloud and his mother for instance, the conversation itself presumably actually happened, it’s just that Cloud wasn’t a SOLDIER but a regular ol’ security officer. On the other hand, when Cloud tries to remember when and how he joined SOLIDER, he freaks out because essentially there’s no real life event that his brain can subconsciously create a false memory from. He can at least misremember the Nibelheim event because he was still actually there to witness it, so his brain can at least try to fill in the blanks.

It's these variances here that are interesting. Even if the other clones have moments of lucidity, they are still pretty much brain dead. The Jenova memory suppression is absolute for them. It's absolute in that they can't even delude themselves into doing something. They're zombies. They're able to complete Reunion because ultimately, they can't fight back. Cloud shows a lot of fight while under the illusion. He still gets summoned to the Crater and all, and Sephiroth uses him for a different purpose, but done as a big quest instead of just being a zombie.

Hojo never gave Cloud a number. He called him a failure, but between him and Zack, he was the one with the desired reaction to Jenova. He had his mind blown, but if the process was just incomplete, then that would explain Cloud maintaining enough agency to at least fight back and for his own memories to be able to surface.

He can at least misremember, but it's specifically the Nibelheim incident, being a SOLDIER and not a just a grunt that's screwed up. Those are all tied to his own insecurities about himself.

I actually speculated Tifa calling out to Cloud to be a false memory months before it was confirmed because the version of the “Anxiety” theme that plays in that scene is given the subtitle “False Memories” in the OST Plus tracklist. So whatever these devs are cooking up, they’re definitely playing the long game.

Good job! I think the devs are dropping little hints like that to encourage people to think. The original game came out almost 25 years ago and it's been analyzed and dissected to no end. I like that they're doing stuff like this because it keeps it interesting. They want people to theorize about it.

The scene did strike me as off because Tifa supposedly didn't notice Cloud as children, so I thought maybe they were re-contextualizing their relationship: did Tifa actually notice him and he was just being too Cloud about it to count it as the acknowledgement he was seeking? It has been has been clarified to be a fake memory. The thing that really sticks with me about it though is the emotion in it: the pain on Tifa's face. It reminds me of the "Alone At Last" scene: Cloud's avoiding her even though he's technically sticking around. I know it's proceeded with a PTSD/Jenova-flash (I think the flash is about pain and conflict and it's why his pleasant memories, like about his mom and the promise, don't have it). But he doesn't seem incapacitated by it. He doesn't start clutching his head, nor does reality start slipping away. He just continues to frown. It was prompted by Jessie asking about the nature of their relationship.

There’s a lot about Jenova’s intentions that’s not always clear too, so much like my earlier answer of “because Cloud’s the main character”, sometimes the answer to our questions is “because the plot says so” lol. It’s funny to me that this would come up in the LTD thread of all places because often times you hear the argument that the romance is up for interpretation but I’d argue what we’re discussing here is WAY more up for interpretation than the love triangle lol.

I guess I look at what Cloud says about “the combination of Jenova cells, Sephiroth’s strong will, and my own weakness are what created me” and I attribute whatever makes sense to each respective character’s abilities. Cloud’s got an inferiority complex but he’s not delusional, at least not on his own as far as what we’ve seen. The Jenova cells suppress parts of his personality and memories that are connected to Cloud’s weakness (whether or not that was targeted or if it’s just a plot convenience is anyone’s guess, I suppose) and that’s what allows him to actually believe the lie.

Jenova is technically brain-dead, right? Like the clones. That's why Sephiroth is in control. The nature of Cloud's brain is absolutely related to the LTD because he's at the center of it. He's got to be figured out first. How many arguments in favor of one girl of the other have you seen over the years about him just being Zack? It doesn't provide a complete answer. He has Zack's memories but remembers Tifa different than Zack (outside the Nibelheim incident). He also doesn't see Aerith and say "oh hey, it's my girlfriend!" If he just thinks he's Zack because he has Zack's memories, then wouldn't it apply to stuff outside the NIbelheim incident? Why just Nibelheim? He also doesn't actually have Zack's personality, especially in the Remake. It's a persona of it's own. There's more to this equation.

I have wondered for the OG whether the suppression was targeted. Sephiroth barely acknowledges Cloud, but conveniently opens his cell door at the Shinra HQ so he can escape. It's why I feel that for the OG the old theory fit better. It let Cloud feel like he could chase Sephiroth around without worrying about being too weak. I feel like for the Remake, the targeting is part of the plot, but it's been inverted. Sephiroth is instead reminding Cloud of the very things that were suppressed. He seems to really want Cloud to remember who he actually is. And that's how this whole question started for me...

So by the time Cloud reaches Midgar, his brain has already been damaged by the mako poisoning and Jenova infusion, but reuniting with Tifa allows Jenova to copy her memories of Cloud, to which Cloud’s broken brain attempts to fill in the gaps. And then Sephiroth takes Cloud’s already weak spirit combined with his damaged mind and uses it to mercilessly troll Cloud.

This is the kinda the official story, right? What if the story for the Remake from Cloud's perspective is a little different?

@villains23 asked me if I believe Cloud was a first-class SOLDIER. How about this: Cloud's just waking up as Zack is dying and crawls over to his body. With his last breaths Zack, Cloud's superior and commanding officer, bequeaths the Buster Sword onto him, just how it had been given to him by Angeal. He tells Cloud that he is his living legacy, and before he can tell him anything more, dies. Cloud repeats back what Zack just says, stunned. He gets up, notices he's wearing a SOLDIER uniform and starts trudging to Midgar (exact ending of Crisis Core but without the scream).

He focuses on Midgar because it's the only thing he can think to do. Last time he was this awake, he was throwing Sephiroth off a catwalk for destroying his hometown and hurting his loved ones. He has no idea how he got where he is, how or why Zack got shot or what day it is. While he's trying to figure this out, he thinks to himself:

"Well, I guess I finally made SOLDIER. First-class, too."

Technically he didn't, but I'd still give him the certificate.

And now the guy he killed is back to troll him.

I like to think Sephiroth appearing early in Remake is him trying to sow doubt in Cloud early on this time, but the extent of Sephiroth’s knowledge is still a mystery that I’m very much looking forward to having answered.

Sephiroth is definitely screwing with him. He knows a lot too because he shows it.

I know some people are expecting a happy reunion with Zack and perhaps we’ll get something of the sort, but I’m really looking forward to if Zack is used to just completely mindscrew Cloud, Aerith, the audience…

Zack is alive to foil both Cloud and Aerith. His death was the start of Cloud's hero's journey. Also instantly proves him to be a fraud, too. Aerith can sense when people die, and she seems to sense his presence when they pass each other. Him being alive deters her from seeking her own death. About the mind-screwing: Sephiroth is in charge. He's pulling the strings. Mind-screwing is the point.

Thanks for the discussion.

Edit: posted to soon

 

[villains23]

What I've gathered of the interpretion of the Ultimanias is that it was just straight all Jenova. If that was the case, the details you described don't fit. It's exactly why I don't think it was all just Jenova. There has to be some other variables in this, one of them being Cloud because it's him we're talking about. And the promise scene in the OG is long before Sephiroth shows up and even has any kind of interest in Cloud, so he can't be a factor. If it was just about keeping Cloud in Midgar because that's where Jenova is, then Cloud can still just walk out of Seventh Heaven and go live with the other guy in the Sector 5 pipe. There's no reason Jenova would have Cloud remember the promise in the OG (I talked about it being super useful to Jenovaroth for the Remake a couple posts back).



Yes. It all fits with him remembering it on his own. It's just that it's be suggested that he doesn't remember anything on his own. But it seems that he actually does. It's made me wonder what's really going on with all of it.

Hope you slept well.

I think we're in agreement when it comes to the promise scene. I think he's remembering the promise as his own memory in both games - not Tifa's memory, and not a product of his Jenova cells IMO. In the remake, he doesn't have any PTSD symptoms when he remembers it, and it seems as though he's accurately experiencing the memory as his own. In OG, I believe that he is remembering it in the same way as well - he's experiencing it as his own memory based on the 3 ideas that I've mentioned in my previous post. 1. He remembers feeling cold. 2. He didn't think Tifa was going to show up. 3. In the lifestream, Tifa believes that Cloud remembered the promise as his own memory as well. As far as #1 goes, Cloud is describing a bodily sensation that he experienced during that night at the water tower. That tells me that he's experiencing the memory as himself, as he remembers actually being there at the water tower. #2, he didn't think that Tifa was going to show up. This is a thought that only Cloud would have - Tifa would have no idea about this. So again, Cloud seems to be experiencing the memory as his own, from his own perspective. In short, I believe that Cloud is experiencing the promise scene as his own memory in both the OG and Remake, with the only difference being the triggers.

As far as his identity of being a 1st Class Soldier goes, it is directly connected to his Jenova cells. It's not a case of Cloud crafting a lie about being a Soldier. It is a situation in which his Jenova cells created an illusion of a 1st Class Soldier within Cloud's mind, which stemmed from Cloud's experience with Zack. Cloud is not aware of the Jenova cells, and he's not aware of the illusion.

https://64.media.tumblr.com/1ecd897.../7c974201089a249137b34a314de853e123b1c74e.jpg

"Under the effect of Jenova’s cells, Cloud mimics his best friend Zack and creates a new persona..." https://thelifestream.net/lifestrea...ns/348/cloud-strife-character-profile-p36-41/