SPOILERS LTD Remake — It's like New Coke except ... no, it's exactly like New Coke

[frosty]

It was KindofBlue who said that, not me.

Eek. I'm sorry!

The fact that Nojima gave Cloud and Tifa adopted kids is pretty telling to me that Cloud and/or Tifa can't have kids.

Err...I don't think that was the case at all. It's not like they sat down and said, hey, we've been married for a while and IVF isn't working out for us. Lets go pick out a child from the Leaf Orphanage. Marlene was literally just handed over to them from Barret. Denzel kinda just popped up at the church and Tifa said bring him home, like a lost puppy.

I think the Cloud/Tifa can't have kids stem from a lot of strange fanfiction just assuming that Mako hampers Cloud's fertility and used to create Cloti angst. (Which was a really strange thing to stumble upon, and also, factually incorrect, because Hojo also clearly says they were planning to breed cetra and SOLDIERS)

That, and what others said about AC being an action movie / keeping romantic intentions ambiguous. Unfortunately, Tifa ain't Gal Gadot's Wonder Woman who can outsource her stunts to a double while being pregnant

There might come a day where she would no longer be ‘the final descendant of the Cetra’. She imagined that scenario in astonishment and fixed her eyes on Tifa. She then flustered ―

What @Phantasia and @Torrie said. It's safe enough to think that say Aerith never thought about having kids despite being in a relationship, the same way Yuna never thought about having kids - because their sense of duty is large, and it just didn't seem like an option presented to the last of her kind.

That sentence also has 0 indication of Cloud's feelings towards Aerith. If the continuation to that sentence was...She imagined that scenario in astonishment and thought of blonde, green-eyed babies...then yes, that'd leave no room for interpretation

Like Tifa and Aerith have almost zero sexual drive like c'mon they both are good looking women in their 20s

I just chalk it up to the FF series generally having teenage main characters and their age rating constraints not being able to depict more maturity in relationships - which includes sex.

Even in FFX2.5 Tidus and Yuna who are...18/19 by now? SE also gives them a vague fade to black...and it's written in such a juvenile manner. And the depiction of the whole sex-fayth method was so...politely described.

 

[kathy202]

Am I the only one here who thinks it's normal to be flustered when someone starts talking about the idea of your future kids that you've either never envisioned before, or if you have, it's not a sort of vision you'd want to share because it's just so personal? Even now when I'm asked that question I feel uneasy. If I were 10 years younger, I'd probably be flustered too.

 

[Eerie]

IDK, I've never been a dreamer about these sort of things. The line just struck me because it's Aerith, I thought that she might be thinking about Cloud there since she has feelings for him, but Tifa's in front of her so she realises it's a blunder. When there is something not depicted like this, the question is "what is the character imagining?" (idk maybe it's my writer side there that twitches). I mean, I wouldn't be surprised if in fine that would be what Aerith is imagining, nor if cleriths interpreted it that way. But maybe I haven't been watching anime for way too long either lol.

I mean, if it was Tifa instead of Aerith, I would also think she's imagining herself and Cloud, would that be surprising? I'm not saying it's something big either, it does fit the theme of "dreamy love" that clerith is. And in any way, this sentence is Aerith dreaming, so it's not indicative of Cloud's feelings - and I didn't interpret it that way.

 

[eleamaya]

I mean, if it was Tifa instead of Aerith, I would also think she's imagining herself and Cloud, would that be surprising?

Tifa is easy to imagine because half of her part in the novella is about her thinking of Cloud and that she expresses the "love" that wants to be with him forever before he went to Midgar. Aerith expressed it once, the same sentimental and desire to spend the time of her life with someone she loves when she gave Zack her 23 wishes note before he went to Nibelheim. At this point, she might not include a desire to have their child yet, and I dont think Tifa even already had imagined having a child with Cloud too. They were teens.

Back to the timeline in the novella, we know she doesn't fully let go of him yet at least till Gold Saucer. Remember, she's about to tell Tifa about her first love next, Zack is still on her mind. And if she thought of having a child with him, she must've turned sad, not flustered. But how could she think of another man as a father of her child when she doesnt fully let go of Zack? Even in Gold Saucer, she wants to meet the real Cloud first before thinkin' further about their relationship although she already had the feeling. Aerith is someone who waits and sees before deciding. So, in this case, IMO she's just thinkin' of being a mother which @a_apple 2.0 and @kathy202 have said. It's clear as day she just wonders about a child she could pass the materia on regardless of who the father would be.

And if you doubted, well, I fell in love several times but fantasizing to have family and children with them as the father depends on how deep my feeling is or how close I am with them, not every guy. Let alone Aerith who is still in a condition of being torn between letting go of someone who died and being attracted to the new one (her monologue in FF 30th anniversary exhibition, remember) to even dream of the father. But as woman, we still could imagine us being a mother without having to know who is our life partner is. I mean, I'm single now and not having a crush on anyone, but since my brother is having a cute baby, I imagine if I had, too, someday. It's maternal natural instinct which I dont think men could imagine being a daddy without imagining his woman first. But yeah, it's private and if my friend caught me as Tifa did, I'd get flustered too.

 

[Eerie]

@eleamaya of course what I'm just saying is a possibility. But she is in the process of falling in love with Cloud. Maybe by that t ime she'll have a clearer vision of what's happening with Zack but we can't be sure either. I'm posting on the assumption that things will follow the OG, where she falls in love with Cloud. Of course, the way it's translated may also be giving me that impression, I really don't know. I can't t alk to Peko about it because she hasn't read so far - her book just arrived last week. What I'm saying is, if cleriths want to see it that way, I will not tell them otherwise because it's a real possibility. Unless part 2 tells me Aerith is not interested in Cloud (and seeing their little interaction in the latest cutscene I doubt that), I think it's a valid interpretation.

@Odysseus hey, mind not use that tone with me? What I'm seeing is that at the end of DoC, Cloud and Tifa end up with yet another orphan at the bar (even if she's already a teen). While it absolutely matches their characters, it also tells me that 2 years after ACC, they're not planning to have a kid of their own. They've already been 4 years together at that time, 2 of which where both of them are especially in tune with each other and solved their problems (I do consider the CoT days to be unfit to want a kid, but the post-ACC days should highlight that). Tifa, who is very family-oriented, wouldn't want a kid? I find that bizarre. And they end up with yet another kid under their roof. The fact that Nojima keeps doing that is more telling to me. They're young, yes, but they're 24-25 years old at that time, which is certainly old enough to have a kid. Leslie and his fiancée, by comparison, are awaiting a kid around the time ACC ends. I don't really feel that FFVII works like our world where women have kids at older ages (around 30), but more around 20-25 (Claudia doesn't look that old in Cloud's memory, and it was only his father that made her stay in the village so yes I'm guessing she had him at 20 at most). So my take is that one or maybe both of them can't have natural kids. Which is not a problem seeing the number of orphans. Or maybe it's a conscious choice to not bring a child in this dangerous world, but if it is, it is not told and it doesn't really fit Tifa's nature.

 

[LicoriceAllsorts]

Seems like we're back to the "what does the Japanese say?" question.
In English it says, "She imagined that scenario in astonishment..." and goes on to say something alone the lines of "she'd never thought of that before". The most straightforward interpretation of those words is the idea of having kids has never crossed her mind. Not that she had thought about it but knew it was impossibility for her, or that she'd thought about it but felt uncomfortable discussing it with Tifa, or that she'd thought about it but realised that if she had kids with Zack they wouldn't be Cetra.

 

[Odysseus]

@Odysseus hey, mind not use that tone with me?

I'm sorry, I wasn't trying to make fun of you. I had made a similar joke in the ultimania thread, I was just calling back to it. "Nojumbo" was just because I like deliberately misspelling names lol. I didn't mean any offense.

I went ahead and deleted the offending post.

 

[frosty]

But how could she think of another man as a father of her child when she doesn't fully let go of Zack?

It's on the boat to Junon that she's thinking this right? About...a week after meeting Cloud and co?

Video games have different rules, but I know if my friend told me she was thinking about this man a week after she met him, he looks kinda like her ex, and he could be the father of her unborn child! I'd bust out a bottle of wine and be like "Girlfriend. Sit down. I know you've been single a while, but we need to have a talk"

And I agree that there is too much overthinking how a simple scenario as such relates to the LTD and Cloud.

Extrapolating this to real life, I'm a single girl with my last relationship being approx. 4-5 years ago, my mom gives me a beautiful cocktail ring and tells me it belonged to my grandma's grandma and it has a lot of heritage in our family. I like it a lot, wear it, meet a friend who compliments it. I tell her "It's a family heirloom! Passed on through generations!" and my friend goes "Cool! You'll give it to your daughter next time then?"

Awkward silence ensues. I stare at her. She stares at me.

And I think it really was meant to be as simple as that.

 

[LicoriceAllsorts]

I like your post, and I agree with most of what you say, Frosty, but it can't be as simple as that, because you're not extremely conscious of the last of your kind, hunted/protected by the de facto world government who want to get their hands on your genes; you're not someone Hojo thought about breeding with a SOLDIER, and the heirloom wasn't the last thing your sick and tortured dying mother gave you, the sole remnant of your entire heritage.

That said, I do think it was meant to be "as simple as that", but just worded poorly - in English, at any rate.

 

[kathy202]

Square Enix needs to give us another ultimania to explain the novels!

Just kidding. Please don't. It's better this way.

 

[Humming]

Looks like there's some 'new' info regarding Hollow.

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1427039470382108672

 

[Makoeyes987]

LMAO I fucking love Kitase.

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

What are we meant to read into that?

 

[Odysseus]

What are we meant to read into that?

Clack is toats canon

 

[Humming]

What are we meant to read into that?

Not much but some people still claim that Hollow is a Clerith love song and has nothing to do with Zack. Honestly if I were the writer I'd be pissed if someone tried to deny how important Zack is in Cloud's life hahaha

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

I realize this topic is a couple of weeks old now, but I've just gotten caught up.
---

What I'm seeing is that at the end of DoC, Cloud and Tifa end up with yet another orphan at the bar (even if she's already a teen). While it absolutely matches their characters, it also tells me that 2 years after ACC, they're not planning to have a kid of their own. They've already been 4 years together at that time, 2 of which where both of them are especially in tune with each other and solved their problems (I do consider the CoT days to be unfit to want a kid, but the post-ACC days should highlight that). Tifa, who is very family-oriented, wouldn't want a kid? I find that bizarre. And they end up with yet another kid under their roof. The fact that Nojima keeps doing that is more telling to me. They're young, yes, but they're 24-25 years old at that time, which is certainly old enough to have a kid. Leslie and his fiancée, by comparison, are awaiting a kid around the time ACC ends. I don't really feel that FFVII works like our world where women have kids at older ages (around 30), but more around 20-25 (Claudia doesn't look that old in Cloud's memory, and it was only his father that made her stay in the village so yes I'm guessing she had him at 20 at most). So my take is that one or maybe both of them can't have natural kids. Which is not a problem seeing the number of orphans. Or maybe it's a conscious choice to not bring a child in this dangerous world, but if it is, it is not told and it doesn't really fit Tifa's nature.

Sorry, this take is just really bizarre to me. Tifa is identified as still only 23 in Dirge, which is well under even the odd threshold you placed on childbearing years -- and there's always a lot going on with them. It probably hasn't even been a full year at this point since Cloud got his cranium straight in AC.

You also never responded to the repeated observation that Hojo was planning to use SOLDIERs to breed Aerith ...

In any case, as you said, "it is not told," so that's a Matrix-style leap to make.

 

[cloud7]

Not much but some people still claim that Hollow is a Clerith love song and has nothing to do with Zack. Honestly if I were the writer I'd be pissed if someone tried to deny how important Zack is in Cloud's life hahaha

Which paragraph from the song do you think fits Zack better than Aerith ?
While I agree you can apply some lines to Zack, all the lines in a stanza are connected. Try looking at the paragraphs as a whole. It becomes pretty clear it's about Aerith

 

[Humming]

Which paragraph from the song do you think fits Zack better than Aerith ?
While I agree you can apply some lines to Zack, all the lines in a stanza are connected. Try looking at the paragraphs as a whole. It becomes pretty clear it's about Aerith

I'm looking at the song as a whole. It still sounds as Cloud mourning everything he lost. You can't take the lines literally becausedo you think this fits any scene reminiscent of Aerith?

This time for sure
I’ll see the truth hidden inside your tears

Who's the empty shell in FF7? Did Cloud become mindless because he lost Aerith? No, it's pretty much a headcanon to make his issues being Aerith-centered because the song plays where Zack died too and that's because Cloud cherished him too. Denying this is undermining Cloud's character. He didn't just lost Aerith, he lost his home, his village, Zack and, for a long time, Tifa.

It's an angsty song for an angsty character and everything he has lost. Cloud didn't become Hollow because he lost Aerith.

 

[cloud7]

I'm looking at the song as a whole. It still sounds as Cloud mourning everything he lost.

It's an angsty song for an angsty character and everything he has lost.

It would be strange to me that the song is about Cloud's mourning in general, because the paragraphs are all pointing to a certain person, the main subject of the song. In every stanza there is a person to whom the words are directed towards.
To me it seems to be about a person that Cloud has lost. That leaves either Zack or Aerith, but maybe you see it differently.

You can't take the lines literally because do you think this fits any scene reminiscent of Aerith?

I agree you can't take them literally. I look at the paragraphs as a whole and try to apply the general tone and message the paragraph is trying to convey to either it being about Aerith or Zack. Then you can put the paragraphs together and form the full picture.

I never claimed Cloud didn't cherish Zack or that Cloud became Hollow only because he lost Aerith. It just seems to me this song is about Aerith.

What do you mean with the song playing when Zack dies too?
The time the instrumental version of the song plays is in Sector 5 slums, when you are separated from Aerith, which is another pretty strong hint the song is about her.

 

[Humming]

@cloud7 I'll just @ you because I'm on phone and I can mess with quotes, if you don't mind.

Yes, the song is a broad reflection on Cloud's status because it wouldn't make sense to have a Clerith song play when Zack comes into scene. See, you point at the fact that a part of the song plays in Sector 5, and therefore the song hints at it being about Aerith. Why doesn't this apply to the ending scene when we see Zack carrying Cloud? The song starts playing when they appear in the background.

It doesn't make sense to reuse the song if it's supposed to portray Cloud and Aerith romantically. Not with Zack literally carrying Cloud.

Let's take this segment, for example, because it's using the 'you' to refer to someone:

I would be lost
Drifting along
Floating up high
Time after time
And there you'd be
Shining brightly
Your smiling face
To guide my way
Bloody and bruised
Brought to my knees
When beaten down
When broken up
You would appear,
Reach out to me,
Heal every wound,
And make me whole

Does anything here relates exclusively to Aerith? Because I think that Zack and Tifa can fit here without making an effort. Cloud has been lifted up by them not once nor twice.

This scene in ACC is pretty fitting, don't you think? Literally bloody and bruised, and even on his knees! Hahaha May be a coincidence but it's a fun example:

And just in case, yeah it's supposedly in the future but so are his supposed feelings for Aerith you want to link to the song. The thing is, the remake is not a 1:1 copy and so the devs can play with this fact. They can expand on things they'd love to in the original, and they can use the knowledge you have from the compilation to make you feel different. Zack and Aerith's deaths aren't a surprise anymore, neither it will be the reveal of Cloud's past. That's why they have freedom to use these elements and give the story nuances that weren't in the OG for the sake of the storytelling.

By the way, if you want a explicit romantic song, ToTP pretty much points at Midgar Blues.

 

[Thenir]

The time the instrumental version of the song plays is in Sector 5 slums, when you are separated from Aerith, which is another pretty strong hint the song is about her.

But no. Hollow Sky is the theme song for Sector 5, it starts playing when Cloud and Aerith are together there.
Chapter 8 has many references to CC, or better to the time Zack and Aerith used to spend together in the past. I'd say that the title itself "Hollow SKY" is somehow a CC reference. I think it's relevant also to notice how Hollow bears some resemblances with The price of Freedom, I'm thinking especially to the use og acoustic and electric guitars that in CC used to accompany Zack's personality, the dualism between his kind side and his role as a fighter (side note: CC soundtrack wasn't created by Uematsu and is quite different to the OG one). I just saw a video from GamerDex83 who suggested a connection between Hollow and Zack back in february 2020, when Zack wasn't revealed yet, pointing out as well this similarity with the Price of Freedom (that started playing exactly when Hollow starts, at the end of his last stand) and I have to say I totally agree, especially considering that Uematsu stated in an interview that the song was composed bearing in mind the idea of a man wandering in the wastelands under the rain (can't check right now the exact words, correct me if I'm misremembering), which fits Cloud after Zack's death.

 

[Eerie]

I realize this topic is a couple of weeks old now, but I've just gotten caught up.
---



Sorry, this take is just really bizarre to me. Tifa is identified as still only 23 in Dirge, which is well under even the odd threshold you placed on childbearing years -- and there's always a lot going on with them. It probably hasn't even been a full year at this point since Cloud got his cranium straight in AC.

You also never responded to the repeated observation that Hojo was planning to use SOLDIERs to breed Aerith ...

In any case, as you said, "it is not told," so that's a Matrix-style leap to make.

Oh for some reason I thought DoC happened 2 years after ACC, my bad. I still think that in CoT Tifa's views of a "family" (her very conservative upbringing to say the least play a huge part in that) are what make her fear that they aren't a real family. I also agree that pre-ACC times aren't really fit for Cloud and Tifa to have a kid of their own, probably not pre-DoC either - but it's my mistake, I thought it was later on.

I mean it's the fact that they keep adopting kids. Usually when a family does that, it's that they can't have one. And with that one kid from DoC (she's a teen, right?) it seems that the timing will be off for some more years. Why does Nojima gets them to adopt/take care of so many kids? Narratively, it only works if you don't plan your pair to have kids of their own. Of course in ACC, not only the timing was off, but they needed Tifa to be able to kick some arses by herself, so it's a no-no. Repeating the same scenario a year after though? I know Tifa's kindhearted, I know that she now have no problem with her family - but to me it indicates that the author (Nojima in this case) maybe doesn't picture them having kids of their own.

As for Hojo, he was talking about Sephiroth whom he just saw (he didn't even remember Cloud), who knows what he tested Cloud with? To me it's really not indicative of Cloud's ablity to have a kid of his own.

 

[Thenir]

Why does Nojima gets them to adopt/take care of so many kids? Narratively, it only works if you don't plan your pair to have kids of their own.

That's something that I've always wondered. Is it stated somewhere in any official material that Tifa and Cloud adopted Shelke? Because it sounds really strange to me.
Marlene and Denzel play an intended narrative role toward Cloud and Tifa, especially Denzel, but Shelke is an adult woman whose body can't grow because of the experimentations she endured, and the game doesn't show the build of any connection with them. She's just...shown to be at 7th Heaven at the end waiting for Vincent, just like Yuffie and RedXIII, I'm more of the idea that it's a mere fan speculation the fact that she permanently moved at the bar.

 

[KindOfBlue]

Can’t wait for “Hollow” to become the next “koibito”

 

[LicoriceAllsorts]

"I mean it's the fact that they keep adopting kids. Usually when a family does that, it's that they can't have one."

I question whether this is true generally; however, when we look at the specific case of Cloud and Tifa, what we see is that:
1. They are looking after the daughter of an old friend and comrade whose work doesn't allow him to care for her 24/7. However, Barret is still Marlene's dad. There is no suggestion that they have formally adopted her or that Cloud has taken Barret's place in her life.
2. Denzel is a sick kid Cloud rescued from Aerith's church. They took him in and are nursing him until he dies, because they are not the kind of people who would turn a child out to die in the street. Again, though they are committed to caring for him, there's no suggestion that they have formally adopted him.
3. Did they adopt Shelke?

It's not as if C&T actively went out looking for orphans to adopt. All three of these kids landed on Tifa and Cloud's doorstep through the accident of circumstances, and Cloud and Tifa are looking after them because that's the kind of people they are. The children and adults living at 7th Heaven Mark II do not, by any stretch of the imagination, form anything like a "normal family". None of them are even related to each other. However, the point the film is trying to make, surely, is that they are a family, because they care about and support each other.