SPOILERS LTD Remake — It's like New Coke except ... no, it's exactly like New Coke

Phantasia

Pro Adventurer
Does the meaning of Clouds answer really matter when she already said "it not real"?

When I saw Aerith's resolution, I took everything she said at face value. A character that was shown throughout the game to know more that what she'd let on, when she said "it's not real", I took it as a confirmation, that she knows exactly "why" those feelings are not real.

Didn't they said in an Ultimania (from the OG) that her powers allow her to sense someones essence or something like that? I feel like I have no business caring about Clouds opinion at this point (regarding the nature of his feelings at least).
 

Leafonthebreeze

Any/All
AKA
Leaf
That is... a really good article actually, which sums up the whole thing really well!

...and I had a vague hunch and went on a hunt and it turns out I used to follow the author on twitter, back when I had a twitter, because she's friends with someone I know from uni!

The internet is very small actually.

Also yeah she is VERY aware of the hell she's wading into because she already lives there lol, I remember half of the crazy LTD shenanigans I used to hear about about were through her tweets.
 

ForceStealer

Double Growth
I appreciate the calling attention to Pattinson getting his descriptions of the characters wrong. Because that drove me nuts every time people shared that clip, lol. Not that I blame him, I'm sure he played it once 25 years ago and moved on like a normal person :monster: But I'm cursed with the knowledge that he was way off base :lol: And worse, misrepresenting it to his costar!
 

ChOcOboO

Game-changer

Ah, once a place to experience all of the love triangle wank, TLS carries with it a small vestige of shipper toxicity. I'm no angel; I certainly contributed to it back in my day. With that I say, not a bad article! I don't think that they are pushing the "Aerith loves Cloud" possibility so hard in Remake, but I can see where she is coming from here..
 

Maidenofwar

They/Them
I wanted to bring up a theory I saw in another thread because it's been bothering me some, as in got the brain think going. The Remake Cloud is not the real Cloud but actually a clone we were travelling along with the whole time or something. I know it's just a theory but I don't know what would happen or how I'd feel if something like that turned out to be true. I think in the end something like this would resolve after everything more positively for Cloti, but I also do not think CA needs to be lessened in that way? as in none of it was real, not any of it. Now for me Cloud and Aerith relationship, it was never just about the romance potential, but becoming close friends, spiritual connections (yeah yeah I know but lifestreaams~) and great love and care since love isn't always about strict romance and I've always believed CA have their own kind of special feelings/relationship (that does not take away from CT) Aerith starting to develop feelings for Cloud, but he literally wasn't Cloud the whole time? He wasn't even in there?, I don't know.

Maybe it is to disconnect people from CA and invest them more in ZA? but I think this might emotionally back fire.

Unless they add a lot of ZA content in remake, and also if the theory turned out to be true CT content with the not remake!clone Cloud, I just yeah, I really don't know.

Perhaps I was just too invested in the Cloud is still biologically Cloud and he's in there somewhere, he's not literally not Cloud at all, all this time. I feel like a rug has been pulled from under me xD
 
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Eerie

Fire and Blood
Listen, I will just repeat myself; the devs threaded carefully all the characters and their relationships with each other, and that is why to me, it sounds very unplausible. There is just no way that Aerith wouldn't have met "Cloud", or at least the one that's fucked up in his head. He's not a clone. But people are definitely going to doubt up until the Lifestream scene where everything is revealed.

And people make those theories while the game *shows* the real Cloud beneath, as well as his real memories. So it shouldn't even be on the table; we're not going to play with a clone for 2 full games before miraculously the real one shows up. That Cloud is able to make his own connections with people, and, to be very frank, living his dream thanks to Jenova (because he believes he was closer to Tifa than what he truly was, allowing him to act in ways his shy arse would never had before) is completely part of the game. We are supposed to see Cloud grow and to worry and to cheer up for him. If we are robbed of the Cloud we knew for 2 whole games, this makes no freaking sense, it would be bad development.
 

Eerie

Fire and Blood
I saw the drama in Twitter lol ? it was incredible to watch, as in morbid fascination if you get what I mean!
 

Odysseus

Ninja Potato
AKA
Ody
Aw, I don't have a twitter so I have no idea what everyone is talking about :sigh:
In the material ultimania plus, there are several scripts for various cutscenes with scene directions. In the one that describes Cloud and Aerith's first meeting, it is noted that after he sees her face, he has a mental reaction (which is when Sephiroth appears).

The specific Japanese word used to describe Cloud seeing Aerith's face is "認識", which has commonly been translated as "recognize". Some extreme Cleriths decided this meant Cloud recognized Aerith because he's traveling back in time to save her from dying, and as such already knows who she is. However, that's not the sort of "recognize" being used here. The Japanese term doesn't carry the implication of past familiarity, just that he's able to understand what he's looking at. If you'll recall, she's flailing around in a panic when he first sees her, so he doesn't get a good look until she stops and looks at him, which is when he's able to "recognize" her face.

To avoid the ambiguity the English word "recognize" would bring, Turquoise instead used the word "register", which more clearly communicates the intended meaning. "Cloud registers her face and has a mental reaction". The afformentioned Cleriths started harassing him about the word change, and even after he provided several outside opinions from native Japanese speakers it wasn't enough. He was called a liar and manipulator, which I simply couldn't abide by, so I started arguing back against them. Now I'm Punished Odysseus.
 
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Ryeleigh

Pro Adventurer
AKA
Rye
In the material ultimania plus, there are several scripts for various cutscenes with scene directions. In the one that describes Cloud and Aerith's first meeting, it is noted that after he sees her face, he has a mental reaction (which is when Sephiroth appears).

The specific Japanese word used to describe Cloud seeing Aerith's face is "認識", which has commonly been translated as "recognize". Some extreme Cleriths decided this meant Cloud recognized Aerith because he's traveling back in time to save her from dying, and as such already knows who she is. However, that's not the sort of "recognize" being used here. The Japanese term doesn't carry the implication of past familiarity, just that he's able to understand what he's looking at. If you'll recall, she's flailing around in a panic when he first sees her, so he doesn't get a good look until she stops and looks at him, which is when he's able to "recognize" her face.

To avoid the ambiguity the English word "recognize" would bring, Turquoise instead used the word "register", which more clearly communicates the intended meaning. "Cloud registers her face and has a mental reaction". The afformentioned Cleriths started harassing him about the word change, and even after he provided several outside opinions from native Japanese speakers it wasn't enough. He was called a liar and manipulator, which I simply couldn't abide by, so I started arguing back against them. Now I'm Punished Odysseus.

Thank you for the reply! I thought it'd be something more serious, lol! I hope you and Turquoise are going to be okay.
 
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Final_Heaven

Pro Adventurer
In the material ultimania plus, there are several scripts for various cutscenes with scene directions. In the one that describes Cloud and Aerith's first meeting, it is noted that after he sees her face, he has a mental reaction (which is when Sephiroth appears).

The specific Japanese word used to describe Cloud seeing Aerith's face is "認識", which has commonly been translated as "recognize". Some extreme Cleriths decided this meant Cloud recognized Aerith because he's traveling back in time to save her from dying, and as such already knows who she is. However, that's not the sort of "recognize" being used here. The Japanese term doesn't carry the implication of past familiarity, just that he's able to understand what he's looking at. If you'll recall, she's flailing around in a panic when he first sees her, so he doesn't get a good look until she stops and looks at him, which is when he's able to "recognize" her face.

To avoid the ambiguity the English word "recognize" would bring, Turquoise instead used the word "register", which more clearly communicates the intended meaning. "Cloud registers her face and has a mental reaction". The afformentioned Cleriths started harassing him about the word change, and even after he provided several outside opinions from native Japanese speakers it wasn't enough. He was called a liar and manipulator, which I simply couldn't abide by, so I started arguing back against them. Now I'm Punished Odysseus.

Juicy. You got a link to that twitter drama by any chance?
 

rkss

Pro Adventurer
AKA
Me
In Chinese "認識" the most common translation is "to conceive" or to put into words "to form a mental image(in your head)".
"Perceive", "Register" are acceptable.
"Recognize" is also acceptable but without context, I don't think the implication of "having encountered before; know again. " is a common translation.

But I'm an ESL, dunno if those words are used synonymously in English.
 

thetriplerhyme

Pro Adventurer
AKA
thetriplerhyme
Yeah this is nothing new, we did say that the next part(s) are going to be like that? I still think Aerith will fall in love with Cloud, as much as it pains me to see her like this in her resolution. But once they'll have to go full cloti, they won't hold back either.

Hi~ thanks for saying this! In OG i never really understood Aerith all that much after crisis core it kinda makes sense now. I really don't like the idea of her falling in love for Cloud

1. Zack tried hard to get back with that dramatic DMW. Its not that I don't want Aerith to move on but I kinda looking for the same passion she have for him * even in FF7R* If her heart will somehow change / move on to another guy. I'm looking for something big / more connection for two of them much more than Zerith.

2. Its much more harder for her because we all know Cloud's true feelings can only be for Tifa.
------------------------

But again I don't wanna be hard on Aerith its not her fault that Zack died and she did deserve happiness.
 

thetriplerhyme

Pro Adventurer
AKA
thetriplerhyme
Listen, I will just repeat myself; the devs threaded carefully all the characters and their relationships with each other, and that is why to me, it sounds very unplausible. There is just no way that Aerith wouldn't have met "Cloud", or at least the one that's fucked up in his head. He's not a clone. But people are definitely going to doubt up until the Lifestream scene where everything is revealed.

And people make those theories while the game *shows* the real Cloud beneath, as well as his real memories. So it shouldn't even be on the table; we're not going to play with a clone for 2 full games before miraculously the real one shows up. That Cloud is able to make his own connections with people, and, to be very frank, living his dream thanks to Jenova (because he believes he was closer to Tifa than what he truly was, allowing him to act in ways his shy arse would never had before) is completely part of the game. We are supposed to see Cloud grow and to worry and to cheer up for him. If we are robbed of the Cloud we knew for 2 whole games, this makes no freaking sense, it would be bad development.

- The time travel theory always triggers me for my own sanity I'm trying my best as well not to be engage.
- devs specifically said many times this is the same damned game and they're just expanding them to match with rest of the compilation.
 

Eerie

Fire and Blood
I've been coming to a slow realisation, thanks to @TurquoiseHammer's translations, and especially the one with Tifa's resolution; I think that Cloud, the current one as he is now, is unable to "love" as we mean it. I've made a whole Twitter thread about it but since my Twitter is locked, I thought I'd post it here:

I think this realisation is one that came slowly - we talked a lot with Peko about Cloud's reactions to traumatic events, I'll be back to it - but was solidify by the Ultimania's description of Tifa's resolution, and in hindsight, Aerith's as well. Let's go!

I think the first comment was Peko who once told me "Cloud's reaction to Jessie's death is weird" followed by "it's like he's not feeling anything, or really muted". While it's not really what's happening there (the Ulti does say he doesnt know YET that he can cry to mourn a fallen companion; notice the YET? Because he's going to learn that with Aerith). However, I feel that was the start. Starting looking at how he reacted to Sephiroth playing with him, how he reacted to the vision of Aerith dying, and most importantly what do the Ultimanias said about such or such scene?

Looking back at the OG, I feel that they did expand on his character; but whatever Cloud does they kept him unaware of the girls' feelings for him.

And the basis to that, for me, is that one thing: Cloud as he is, in his fake persona, cannot understand what true love is. He is unable to explain his relationship with Tifa *because* he's unable to unlock the meaning of these feelings. They are hidden, even to him. Cloud is complicated in his head, there's no denying it. He's attracted to Aerith, but at the same time, he will give a LOT of attention to Tifa and agree to everything she says or wants. Even if he hates it (see: letting her go see Corneo alone).

But then, Aerith tells him "you can't fall in love with me (which part she also says to herself), but IF you think you did, than it's all your IMAGINATION". This is, I think a double entendre; we know that it's related to the OG and the fact that true Cloud's love is Tifa. It's also a reference to the fact that the player chose if Cloud fell for Aerith or not (which is why his feelings for Aerith have never and will never be canon; because they differ from a player to another). However, the fact that Briana, her EN VA said that Cloud is not emotionally available is yet another pointer (and so did Marle). What if Aerith said that also because Cloud, as he is, is simply unable to love anyone?

Let's see what about Tifa's resolution then?

In Tifa's resolution, we are told a few things:

- that true Cloud comes out;
- that he's (a bit too) happy to be her hero;
- that it's romantic;
- that he doesn't understand Tifa's feelings.

In Aerith's resolution, he was utterly confused about what she told him. Do you see the pattern?

Cloud is unable to understand the girls' feelings; the only really strong feeling he ever displayed during Remake was when Sephiroth toyed with him about his mother. When he cried for the memory of Aerith's death, he didn't understand. Cloud right now is 16 in his head and the worst thing? He's getting owned and manipulated by an alien installed in his cells. Which doesn't really help - Cloud was, at 16, an akward boy, someone who's really not used to social interactions which SHOWS in Remake. But the thing with Jenova? Totally messes him up.

Even if you look at Cloud once he's back to himself in the OG, he still didn't understand Aerith. Cloud in his SOLDIER self IMAGINES what "being in love" must be, just like he imagines being an ex-SOLDIER. To me, this is the way that Remake uses to push the illusion through the LT, more than the LT in itself. If Cloud understood what love is, he'd look at his feelings for Tifa which he is unable to, because he's being cockblocked by Jenova.

So yes, Cloud is unable to love. And I think it's really wanted by the devs because "love" is only unlocked when he gets to be himself again. It's one of the things that will really separate SOLDIER Cloud from his true self.

Yes, but Tifa you will ask? His true self shows up! Yes, he does, but he does not often. What we see mostly is him being relaxed and himself around her, not his *TRUE* self. His true feelings are here, yes, and he doesn't understand them. He's not able to fully love her and that is why he makes a blunder in her resolution; yes he was desperate to be her hero, to console her, but if he had understood her, he'd be as devastated as she was, because it's THEIR loss. Only his true self will be able to connect fully with her which is pretty logical and why I don't think we'll get more than what we got in part 1 (I fully expect the dynamics of the ships to remain the same).

Yes, we can see that Cloud is kind, that he does bond with people, that he cares about them. But feelings that are too deep, too raw - and that includes love - are definitely being blocked by Jenova who doesn't want to lose her puppet, especially seeing his importance re: Sephiroth. Clearly Jenova is disconnecting him from feelings that are deep and raw, maybe in the fear they'd lose him too early.
 
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