SPOILERS LTD Remake — It's like New Coke except ... no, it's exactly like New Coke

[Eerie]

@frosty: this is because it's not their personal account, these are fan accounts. I know I was weirded out too.

Honestly these days feel so bizarre lol. Peko tagged me in an innocuous tweet about something we discussed about Aerith's resolution, and she got trolls harrassing her and a LOT of CAs I've never ever seen have blocked me (even though my account is private lol). Not that I care: I *never* search the CA tag lol. I stumble upon what they say through CT convos.

Speaking of stumbling into shit, I'd really appreciate them stopping the spite shipping with Tifa which is ridiculous (Zack, Johnny, Barret, Rude). And when I mean ridiculous, I mean they say it's more canon than cloti which is supposedely a "crack ship" (I've never called CA that way, and I think it's just an unrequited love from Aerith, eh). They're honestly looking for trouble at this point.

Also to add to this: saying that Tifa's memories are unreliable and that she's an unreliable narrator. No, Cloud is the very definition of that. Stop trying to twist the story.

And that's just the surface shit of the last days, I'm just perplexed because all these claims are just so out there like... You're not shipping CA anymore? All you do is try to troll clotis? It's getting really ridiculous and going all over the CT tag. Is it because cloti trended so much last week in a way or another, I do wonder. I just don't get it.

 

[thetriplerhyme]

@frosty:

Speaking of stumbling into shit, I'd really appreciate them stopping the spite shipping with Tifa which is ridiculous (Zack, Johnny, Barret, Rude). And when I mean ridiculous, I mean they say it's more canon than cloti which is supposedely a "crack ship" (I've never called CA that way, and I think it's just an unrequited love from Aerith, eh). They're honestly looking for trouble at this point.

Also to add to this: saying that Tifa's memories are unreliable and that she's an unreliable narrator. No, Cloud is the very definition of that. Stop trying to twist the story.

And that's just the surface shit of the last days, I'm just perplexed because all these claims are just so out there like... You're not shipping CA anymore? All you do is try to troll clotis? It's getting really ridiculous and going all over the CT tag. Is it because cloti trended so much last week in a way or another, I do wonder. I just don't get it.

With CCReunion on the way and whole a lot translation from turtoise has been completed. A lot of Aerith's death has been obviously foreshadow they're anxious and hence they're doing all they can to twist characters. Its disgusting...

 

[looneymoon]

I posted this here because only you guys would be familiar with the ancient lore

 

[Makoeyes987]

McDonald's needs to to McFuck off.

 

[Wol]

What the hell is this interaction, Jesus Christ

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1558384397669236737

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1559179860504887297

Wow hahahaha

Wow

 

[Odysseus]

You see why I'm punished now?

 

[Eerie]

Every time I think about this interview and... I'm sorry but

 

[KindOfBlue]

I’m lost, what’s the lore here?

 

[Ryushikaze]

I've been coming to a slow realisation, thanks to @TurquoiseHammer's translations, and especially the one with Tifa's resolution; I think that Cloud, the current one as he is now, is unable to "love" as we mean it. I've made a whole Twitter thread about it but since my Twitter is locked, I thought I'd post it here:

I think this realisation is one that came slowly - we talked a lot with Peko about Cloud's reactions to traumatic events, I'll be back to it - but was solidify by the Ultimania's description of Tifa's resolution, and in hindsight, Aerith's as well. Let's go!

I think the first comment was Peko who once told me "Cloud's reaction to Jessie's death is weird" followed by "it's like he's not feeling anything, or really muted". While it's not really what's happening there (the Ulti does say he doesnt know YET that he can cry to mourn a fallen companion; notice the YET? Because he's going to learn that with Aerith). However, I feel that was the start. Starting looking at how he reacted to Sephiroth playing with him, how he reacted to the vision of Aerith dying, and most importantly what do the Ultimanias said about such or such scene?

Looking back at the OG, I feel that they did expand on his character; but whatever Cloud does they kept him unaware of the girls' feelings for him.

And the basis to that, for me, is that one thing: Cloud as he is, in his fake persona, cannot understand what true love is. He is unable to explain his relationship with Tifa *because* he's unable to unlock the meaning of these feelings. They are hidden, even to him. Cloud is complicated in his head, there's no denying it. He's attracted to Aerith, but at the same time, he will give a LOT of attention to Tifa and agree to everything she says or wants. Even if he hates it (see: letting her go see Corneo alone).

But then, Aerith tells him "you can't fall in love with me (which part she also says to herself), but IF you think you did, than it's all your IMAGINATION". This is, I think a double entendre; we know that it's related to the OG and the fact that true Cloud's love is Tifa. It's also a reference to the fact that the player chose if Cloud fell for Aerith or not (which is why his feelings for Aerith have never and will never be canon; because they differ from a player to another). However, the fact that Briana, her EN VA said that Cloud is not emotionally available is yet another pointer (and so did Marle). What if Aerith said that also because Cloud, as he is, is simply unable to love anyone?

Let's see what about Tifa's resolution then?

In Tifa's resolution, we are told a few things:

- that true Cloud comes out;
- that he's (a bit too) happy to be her hero;
- that it's romantic;
- that he doesn't understand Tifa's feelings.

In Aerith's resolution, he was utterly confused about what she told him. Do you see the pattern?

Cloud is unable to understand the girls' feelings; the only really strong feeling he ever displayed during Remake was when Sephiroth toyed with him about his mother. When he cried for the memory of Aerith's death, he didn't understand. Cloud right now is 16 in his head and the worst thing? He's getting owned and manipulated by an alien installed in his cells. Which doesn't really help - Cloud was, at 16, an akward boy, someone who's really not used to social interactions which SHOWS in Remake. But the thing with Jenova? Totally messes him up.

I have one nitpick with this, and that's people saying Cloud is 16 mentally. He is absolutely stunted but he didn't just stop being aware for four years. Cloud was aware for at least part of the experimentation based on him and Zack communicating through scratches on their chambers and that suggests he's got all THAT baggage going on.

@frosty: this is because it's not their personal account, these are fan accounts. I know I was weirded out too.

Honestly these days feel so bizarre lol. Peko tagged me in an innocuous tweet about something we discussed about Aerith's resolution, and she got trolls harrassing her and a LOT of CAs I've never ever seen have blocked me (even though my account is private lol). Not that I care: I *never* search the CA tag lol. I stumble upon what they say through CT convos.

Speaking of stumbling into shit, I'd really appreciate them stopping the spite shipping with Tifa which is ridiculous (Zack, Johnny, Barret, Rude). And when I mean ridiculous, I mean they say it's more canon than cloti which is supposedely a "crack ship" (I've never called CA that way, and I think it's just an unrequited love from Aerith, eh). They're honestly looking for trouble at this point.

Also to add to this: saying that Tifa's memories are unreliable and that she's an unreliable narrator. No, Cloud is the very definition of that. Stop trying to twist the story.

And that's just the surface shit of the last days, I'm just perplexed because all these claims are just so out there like... You're not shipping CA anymore? All you do is try to troll clotis? It's getting really ridiculous and going all over the CT tag. Is it because cloti trended so much last week in a way or another, I do wonder. I just don't get it.

It's like it's the late 90s and early 2000s again.

I’m lost, what’s the lore here?

Long ago a Clerith wrote a fake interview in support for C/A as a pairing being "totally canon" in Japan. Among the many signs of being bullshit was that the interview was conducted in a Wacdonalds.

 

[jeangl123]

https://docs.google.com/document/d/11Ey8erdaGIt1PdrmeaZMnVRgokNTNj6ji_iq1deYwB8/edit
I mean the developers even say that he is so the claim isn't unfounded.
https://www.inverse.com/gaming/ff7-remake-interview-story-changes-cloud-jessie-wall-market

I'm also not sure at what point those scratches were made since Zack breaks the glass in Crisis Core instead of escaping during feeding time like in the OG.

Long ago a Clerith wrote a fake interview in support for C/A as a pairing being "totally canon" in Japan. Among the many signs of being bullshit was that the interview was conducted in a Wacdonalds.

Lol would you happened to have this interview? How long ago was it if they said it took place in a McDonalds?

 

[Ryushikaze]

View attachment 12974
https://docs.google.com/document/d/11Ey8erdaGIt1PdrmeaZMnVRgokNTNj6ji_iq1deYwB8/edit
I mean the developers even say that he is so the claim isn't unfounded.
https://www.inverse.com/gaming/ff7-remake-interview-story-changes-cloud-jessie-wall-market

My points is not that he's more mature than a 16 year old. My point is that he's got the social skills you'd expect of a 16 year old AND years of trauma on top.

I'm also not sure at what point those scratches were made since Zack breaks the glass in Crisis Core instead of escaping during feeding time like in the OG.

True. I don't suspect either of them were coherent all the time, given how heavily they were both being dosed.

Lol would you happened to have this interview? How long ago was it if they said it took place in a McDonalds?

Not McDonalds, WacDonalds. And I will see. This is over a decade old at this point. Much of that internet is gone.

EDIT: Ahah! Found a transcription and some screenshots.

https://destinyfailed.blogspot.com/2007/06/real-life-fake-japanese-people.html

EDIT AGAIN: The transcription is a parody, the screenshots are the original fake interview.

 

[Eerie]

@Ryushikaze Zack in CC wasn’t aware so much time passed since they had been taken and experimented on, there’s no way Cloud does. It shows a few times very well that Cloud is really young in his head and trying to play cool instead, it actually explains a lot of his behaviour. Nojima commented on it, and I think it’s really an important trait of his character.

 

[jeangl123]

Cloud's also still not able to recall his memories of that time very well by the time of AC. This is from the script for the original AC btw.

 

[Ryushikaze]

@Ryushikaze Zack in CC wasn’t aware so much time passed since they had been taken and experimented on, there’s no way Cloud does. It shows a few times very well that Cloud is really young in his head and trying to play cool instead, it actually explains a lot of his behaviour. Nojima commented on it, and I think it’s really an important trait of his character.

Zack Was surprised four years had passed, but was aware they'd been trapped for some time. Again, I am not arguing Cloud is Mature. I am arguing Cloud is extra fucked due to being an experiment.

He's not perfectly aware, but he IS aware, even when he's a vegetable. Cloud is ~16 with loads of repressed and half remembered traumatic memories. That's my point.

 

[Eerie]

Oh on that we agree then lol. I just feel it when I watch or play just how much Cloud is 16 in his head. It shows a lot in chapter 3 but also in the way he reacts with Aerith - playing what he thinks is cool. Cloud is very inexperienced when it comes to social interactions and that shows.

 

[KindOfBlue]

Long ago a Clerith wrote a fake interview in support for C/A as a pairing being "totally canon" in Japan. Among the many signs of being bullshit was that the interview was conducted in a Wacdonalds.

Somehow the McDonald’s Twitter account tweeting Clerith makes this even more funny in hindsight

 

[KindOfBlue]

Double post, but on the subject of companies planting their flags in this debate, here’s Naughty Dog with the remake of the Last of Us

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1571842044980756480

 

[Eerie]

Yeah, the cloti fans are indeed very happy about this one. It doesn't change anything but it's nice.

 

[null]

EDIT: Ahah! Found a transcription and some screenshots.

https://destinyfailed.blogspot.com/2007/06/real-life-fake-japanese-people.html

EDIT AGAIN: The transcription is a parody, the screenshots are the original fake interview.

Awww shit, koi_____bito in the house!

Spoiler

 

[KindOfBlue]

A couple years being part of this fanbase and I still don’t quite get the train of thought on that particular point in the LTD.

For those who insist that word suggests a mutual romantic relationship, haven’t both girls been described in such a manner? To then try to say it exclusively solidifies Cloud and Aerith as the only legitimate couple, you’d have to ignore the many official statements made regarding Cloud and Tifa’s relationship…which would be silly and frankly dishonest.

 

[eleamaya]

Even if some people insisted Clerith is canon because of their feelings (not relationship), an author doesnt write a story with a couple separated in death---but with the guy now lives with the girl he had loved since childhood who also love him and they adopt child together, and the girl is in afterlife with the first love she had waited to home for 5 years that his dying thought is also her waiting for him---as the only canon couple while the other two couples aren't... unless the writer portray the two characters of the only canon as jerk and selfish.

 

[Eerie]

Yes, it really is a weird take on both Cloud and Aerith.

I really look at the history of the LTD with curiosity nowadays, because to me the story is very straightforward (if you truly think about it, before he made up his fake persona, Cloud doesn't remember a state where he's not in love or at least crushing hard on her; how can people claim she's second best is beyond me). And I think this was the most interesting to me:

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1567596745701429248

In this rare interview of Masato Katō, we do see him talking about how they worked on FFVII; they first talked about the story all together thoroughly, then would get assigned subevents. And, I noticed: Mideel, Lifestream scene, Highwind scene, the ones he took care of were all the major cloti events. But, I'll get back to this.

When FFVII was launched, it was a one time game, no Compilation needed, etc. Back then, the developpers clearly didn't think much of the love triangle - to them it was a tool, and whatever fans wanted to believe, be it! They were also young, trying out new stuff - those were exciting times for them. But because they were young and inexperimented, they made errors in their storytelling and the message was definitely misunderstood by the fans - how many tried to revive Aerith when the message was that we have to live on with the dead in our hearts?

What was done was done, and Nomura was a little flippant when he answered interviews because he truly didn't care about who Cloud loved.

But, because there is always a but, the Compilation began as they worked on BC and AC. They still made storytelling errors that they didn't notice, but this time, women told Nomura they pitied Tifa; and he did not understand, because to him, Cloud and Tifa had a good relationship. However, they absolutely and spectacularly failed to convey this in AC, and the feedback they had made them scramble back to the story: what went wrong? I sometimes do wonder though if them wanting to cater to both CAs and CTs back then made them have such a way to tell the story in which, if fans wanted to, they could pretend Cloud was in love with Aerith. So many cloti fans got out of the movie thinking that they weren't a couple yet that it was a major drawback for years in fandom (you really don't want to read fics from that era lol, so depressing it made me stop reading CT fics altogether), and I can't say that we weren't looking for clues there - because most fans before AC thought that Cloud was in love with Aerith, so it definitely tainted how that movie was interpreted. The ending especially with Aerith looking over Cloud was so bad in showing their intent that SE had to take it off in ACC.

There was definitely wrongness in how they portrayed and made their characters look to the public. There was a lot of unawareness from them in how the fans would understand what was shown, and I think it shows in AC - I absolutely despised Cloud there. AC had cool graphics but pretty terrible story. The dialogues were, in all honesty, kept to a bare minimum, which made Cloud's motivation hard to understand - and he was the main character! So, when women complained to Nomura, it was because there was a real reason to not understand this story and those characters. And I think that it made the devs understand that they had failed to convey a big part of their story - in fine, this is why ACC does exist, and why we can see more clearly their intent there. It made them realise that the way they presented their characters was important to convey their story (look at Aerith in OG; look at what she became in Remake, they nearly entirely redid her character, accentuating her feelings for Zack to the max).

Then we got On the way to a smile novellas which helped understand the context, but as Nojima was trying for the first time to write, there were still errors in how everything was handled, which led to serious fights in the LTD. By that time though, I knew that Cloud and Tifa were definitely a couple, as I felt during the OG. Then came CC, ACC, the novellas revised and now Remake, which, I think, truly shines in its characterisation; this is the best the characters have ever been, because finally SE cares about how the characters present themselves to people. They're not only tools for a story, but also make the story and they want everyone to love them.

I think the main problem that existed is that the characters were tools, just like the LT was; convenient tools that helped conveying a message. As I noted way earlier in this message () Masato Katō was the one who designed ALL the major CT interactions; which means that the man who understood best Cloud and Tifa, their interactions, was also the one who left and never talked about it. Which led to devs never really commenting on them while it's probably one of the best love stories SE has pulled from 7 and on (sorry I do not know about earlier Final Fantasy games). Which did lead a lot of people to believe that Cloud loved Aerith, when it was not the story. SE finally cares about people understanding their message, so you can clearly see that all the differences between the OG and Remake are made to explain things better (minus chapter 18 lol). And that includes the LT, because there has always been an answer to it, which has always been the Lifestream scene; as I said, true!Cloud never knew a state where he wasn't in love with Tifa, and that's what the Lifestream scene also tells.

But it took MORE THAN A DECADE for fans to begin to understand this, and it's a long time that taints fandom a lot. By then it's natural that people won't want to let go of what they thought happened, they are too invested, and that leads to the current LTD debacle (it should be dead).

 

[KindOfBlue]

Even if some people insisted Clerith is canon because of their feelings (not relationship), an author doesnt write a story with a couple separated in death---but with the guy now lives with the girl he had loved since childhood who also love him and they adopt child together, and the girl is in afterlife with the first love she had waited to home for 5 years that his dying thought is also her waiting for him---as the only canon couple while the other two couples aren't... unless the writer portray the two characters of the only canon as jerk and selfish.

I mean I guess it could work as a star-crossed lovers story if Cloud and Aerith totally moved on from Tifa and Zack respectively but that’s very much not what happens at least in Cloud’s case…as for Aerith, I hope the remake really clarifies how she feels about Zack after meeting Cloud because she doesn’t seem to dwell on him much in the OG

how many tried to revive Aerith when the message was that we have to live on with the dead in our hearts?

Ugh, the amount of times I’d seen people wanting her to survive the remake just to be with Cloud lol

I’m willing to concede that Cloud and Aerith could’ve had a future together if the circumstances worked in their favor but like…they don’t, that’s the whole point

Then came CC, ACC, the novellas revised and now Remake,

Cloud & Tifa’s relationship has all the post-launch patch updates of a modern AAA game lmao

 

[odekopeko]

A couple years being part of this fanbase and I still don’t quite get the train of thought on that particular point in the LTD.

For those who insist that word suggests a mutual romantic relationship, haven’t both girls been described in such a manner? To then try to say it exclusively solidifies Cloud and Aerith as the only legitimate couple, you’d have to ignore the many official statements made regarding Cloud and Tifa’s relationship…which would be silly and frankly dishonest.

I agree with you on how the word is used. I thought it's used the same way in EN. I don't know why people think Japanese people use it any differently. I jokingly call Jihoon from Treasure my "boyfriend" on Weverse app, but he doesn't respond to me and I know we'll never date in RL sobs

I don't think they were both described as Cloud's koibito though. The director is the one who described Tifa as being someone's koibito, and the scenario writer only wrote Aerith making her one-sided confession in the afterlife to Cloud that she viewed him as a koibito. All that was made clear to me is that Aerith's feelings for Cloud were definitely not platonic. She loved him as a woman loved a man. However, that's not anyone describing her as someone's koibito. Not at all the same thing.

The only issue I have now is that some people are connecting this to Mr. Toriyama and others calling the rooftop scenes a "date" with Aerith in the interviews, and claiming that this proves Cloud and Aerith are dating/in a relationship... They're now making the argument that when she said she saw him as her koibito in the novel, it's proof that Cloud and Aerith are dating, because see? They called it a "date"?

I really hope it's just ignorant people not understanding how casual the word is used.

The events in the game, the Ultimania quotes I've seen here and on twitter, they show me the devs know Cloud and Tifa are written to be together romantically but Nomura refused to name drop Cloud when it comes to Tifa. We all know it's him because now Nojima has made it clear in his novel that there was never anyone else but him in Tifa's heart. As for Aerith, she clearly loves Cloud romantically but his feelings for her were purposefully left ambiguous. I have yet to be shown any interview or any dialogue where he tells her that he feels the same way. If you find it, let me know. That's the stuff people can dream and let their imagination go wild about. Doesn't make it real though.

But it took MORE THAN A DECADE for fans to begin to understand this, and it's a long time that taints fandom a lot. By then it's natural that people won't want to let go of what they thought happened, they are too invested, and that leads to the current LTD debacle (it should be dead).

LTD thing is already dead to me after completing og. Like I've talked to you about, compilation are like pieces of the puzzle being put together to create a picture. Remake trilogy might not end as the better game for most people who loved the og, but they definitely improved on so many things. Things make more sense now in relation to characterization.

 

[Ryushikaze]

I agree with you on how the word is used. I thought it's used the same way in EN. I don't know why people think Japanese people use it any differently. I jokingly call Jihoon from Treasure my "boyfriend" on Weverse app, but he doesn't respond to me and I know we'll never date in RL sobs

I don't think they were both described as Cloud's koibito though. The director is the one who described Tifa as being someone's koibito, and the scenario writer only wrote Aerith making her one-sided confession in the afterlife to Cloud that she viewed him as a koibito. All that was made clear to me is that Aerith's feelings for Cloud were definitely not platonic. She loved him as a woman loved a man. However, that's not anyone describing her as someone's koibito. Not at all the same thing.

No, THE WOMAN made a one sided confession in the afterlife. We can't be sure who the woman is[/sarcasm]

Sorry, it just bugs me that we act like it's not just as obvious who Tifa is a lover to as it is who the man and woman in COL are.

The only issue I have now is that some people are connecting this to Mr. Toriyama and others calling the rooftop scenes a "date" with Aerith in the interviews, and claiming that this proves Cloud and Aerith are dating/in a relationship... They're now making the argument that when she said she saw him as her koibito in the novel, it's proof that Cloud and Aerith are dating, because see? They called it a "date"?

To Aerith it might be a 'date,' to Cloud it was 'huh, what? Sorry, trying to get back to Ti- I mean Avalanche.'

I really hope it's just ignorant people not understanding how casual the word is used.

The events in the game, the Ultimania quotes I've seen here and on twitter, they show me the devs know Cloud and Tifa are written to be together romantically but Nomura refused to name drop Cloud when it comes to Tifa. We all know it's him because now Nojima has made it clear in his novel that there was never anyone else but him in Tifa's heart.

Plus their shared future, family they formed together etc. etc. etc. yadda yadda yadda.

As for Aerith, she clearly loves Cloud romantically but his feelings for her were purposefully left ambiguous. I have yet to be shown any interview or any dialogue where he tells her that he feels the same way. If you find it, let me know. That's the stuff people can dream and let their imagination go wild about. Doesn't make it real though.



LTD thing is already dead to me after completing og. Like I've talked to you about, compilation are like pieces of the puzzle being put together to create a picture. Remake trilogy might not end as the better game for most people who loved the og, but they definitely improved on so many things. Things make more sense now in relation to characterization.

The LT, such as it was, died with Aerith. Died even harder when Cloud got his full self back. The Debate, that's the part that lives, if living is the right word, like a lich, devouring the souls and sanity of those who stray too close.