SPOILERS LTD Remake — It's like New Coke except ... no, it's exactly like New Coke

[odekopeko]

No, THE WOMAN made a one sided confession in the afterlife. We can't be sure who the woman is[/sarcasm]

Sorry, it just bugs me that we act like it's not just as obvious who Tifa is a lover to as it is who the man and woman in COL are.

Well, I know it's Cloud. We all know it's Cloud!? But this is what I’ve turned into after being in this fandom for almost two years.

With these people, if Cloud’s name isn’t spoken aloud in the same sentence, they would rather say “it could be anybody” than admit it’s Cloud.

 

[Ryeleigh]

Some people have this really entrenched image of FFVII in their minds. Typically they don't seem to understand that the player choices were about as meaningful as the player choices in Fire Emblem Awakening. As in, those choices never affected the plot and if they did affect anything, they affected the party's feelings, not Cloud's. That FFVII was never a Western RPG otome ala Bioware who give multiple resolutions to their romances.

That the "LT" died with Aerith. It further died with the Lifestream scene. And the final nail was Under the Highwind.

They also ignore that post-game Tifa and Cloud have all the trappings of a post-timeskip shonen couple (living together, two kids), but they tend to ignore and hate AC anyway.

Tifa undeniably has romantic feelings for Cloud.

Aerith undeniably had romantic feelings for Cloud or what she saw in Cloud Zack, but would she have had those feelings for "real Cloud" too? Who knows, but by the time AC rolls around she seems to think of him as a big kid.

Cloud undeniably has romantic feelings for Tifa. They're mentioned in the game and in every post-game material. Did he have romantic feelings for Aerith too? Well, seeing as the devs have never confirmed nor denied it, I suppose this is the part that's up to interpretation and people can interpret whatever makes them happy.

(Didn't really write that as well as I hoped to but it'll have to suffice.)

 

[Eerie]

The thing is, how you interpret Cloud's feelings towards Aerith are due to players' choices. That's why it's never confirmed because it can change from a player to another, depending if they chose Aerith or Tifa. However, the players' choices do not supercede the story itself; and that's why the story tells you "Cloud loves Tifa, the end".

Some players chose to believe that their choice (aka Aerith) would "win" if she hadn't died, but that's not true; she's barely mentioned after her death and we're still shown that Cloud doesn't understand her, which should be the biggest hint about his feelings towards her.

But how the OG played out is also the reason why Remake is this way: much less players' choices, a lot of cloti scenes that aren't "optional", so that finally Mideel, the LS scene and the Highwind scene will form a cohesive ensemble, a momentum for the players who will be able to understand the nature of especially the LS scene and what it says. Fans will get a "ah, they love each other" feeling rather than a "ha, who knows who Cloud loves?"

 

[frosty]

FFVII was never a Western RPG otome ala Bioware who give multiple resolutions to their romances.

I don't think the most vocal FFVII LTD combatants play many other games to see what "real" players choice means tbh. Or at least from what I observed. Sometimes I don't think they're gamers at all even ?

And the funny thing I learned with JRPGs that are truly canon-less, 100% player's choice is that the "male hero comforting a crying / hurt girl" is A BIG romantic trope.

I swear a good third of my experience with Persona was pretty much:

Me: Oh she's crying, i feel bad for her, but i want to romance the next girl
Game: Hug character A?
Me: Yea sure why not, we're friends!
Game: There's no turning back
Me: Huh?
Game: Your relationship with A is now intimate
Me: Huh?
Game: *proceeds to call A my girlfriend the whole remainder of the game and serves her as options for Xmas, Valentine's day and White Day

 

[Ryeleigh]

I don't think the most vocal FFVII LTD combatants play many other games to see what "real" players choice means tbh. Or at least from what I observed. Sometimes I don't think they're gamers at all even ?

Oh, there are some who are gamers. But I'm not entirely sure they've actually internalised anything from them Their basic idea seems to be that "if SE wanted cloti to be canon, they would've written a very special memo". That, or Cloud and Tifa would've turned towards the camera and decidedly said that they're together now.

I don't know. It's the regular practice of rejecting what's in the actual text in favour of what's in their heads?

And the funny thing I learned with JRPGs that are truly canon-less, 100% player's choice is that the "male hero comforting a crying / hurt girl" is A BIG romantic trope.

I swear a good third of my experience with Persona was pretty much:

Me: Oh she's crying, i feel bad for her, but i want to romance the next girl
Game: Hug character A?
Me: Yea sure why not, we're friends!
Game: There's no turning back
Me: Huh?
Game: Your relationship with A is now intimate
Me: Huh?
Game: *proceeds to call A my girlfriend the whole remainder of the game and serves her as options for Xmas, Valentine's day and White Day

Lol, I remember when I played Dragon Age: Origins the first time and I had no idea I could romance my teammates. I thought I was just being friendly until one of them said something decidedly flirty and I was like, that was supposed to happen, right? o__o

 

[Ryushikaze]

Well, I know it's Cloud. We all know it's Cloud!? But this is what I’ve turned into after being in this fandom for almost two years.

With these people, if Cloud’s name isn’t spoken aloud in the same sentence, they would rather say “it could be anybody” than admit it’s Cloud.

Even if it is, sometimes. I mean we have a reunion files quote referring to "their future" the CC Complete Guide keyword of the two of them - and Zack and Aerith didn't get a shared keyword in the Crisis Core Complete Guide - and they refuse to admit Tifa is important to Cloud.

I don't think the most vocal FFVII LTD combatants play many other games to see what "real" players choice means tbh. Or at least from what I observed. Sometimes I don't think they're gamers at all even ?

And the funny thing I learned with JRPGs that are truly canon-less, 100% player's choice is that the "male hero comforting a crying / hurt girl" is A BIG romantic trope.

I swear a good third of my experience with Persona was pretty much:

Me: Oh she's crying, i feel bad for her, but i want to romance the next girl
Game: Hug character A?
Me: Yea sure why not, we're friends!
Game: There's no turning back
Me: Huh?
Game: Your relationship with A is now intimate
Me: Huh?
Game: *proceeds to call A my girlfriend the whole remainder of the game and serves her as options for Xmas, Valentine's day and White Day

P4 is also an amazing example for when a pairing is so obvious the creators don't feel the need to say "Yeah, that's the one," sepcifically Kanji and Naoto.

 

[thetriplerhyme]

Exactly~ and this is the case up until Cloud regains his true self.

Once he regains his true self back ( thanks to Tifa) there's no more choices. He's making his own choice and own path with Tifa of course.

The thing is, how you interpret Cloud's feelings towards Aerith are due to players' choices. That's why it's never confirmed because it can change from a player to another, depending if they chose Aerith or Tifa. However, the players' choices do not supercede the story itself; and that's why the story tells you "Cloud loves Tifa, the end".

Some players chose to believe that their choice (aka Aerith) would "win" if she hadn't died, but that's not true; she's barely mentioned after her death and we're still shown that Cloud doesn't understand her, which should be the biggest hint about his feelings towards her.

But how the OG played out is also the reason why Remake is this way: much less players' choices, a lot of cloti scenes that aren't "optional", so that finally Mideel, the LS scene and the Highwind scene will form a cohesive ensemble, a momentum for the players who will be able to understand the nature of especially the LS scene and what it says. Fans will get a "ah, they love each other" feeling rather than a "ha, who knows who Cloud loves?"

 

[Eerie]

As I am a shipper, I wanted to talk about those four scenes that got talked about a lot here, notably, and elsewhere:

​

For the record, I play in French, those screenshots are old screenshots I took off YT back when I could only watch the game and I can play slowly (because I borrow my husband's computer so it's like once a week or so and I've also been slowed down by a tendinite yay).

As a shipper, I thought prior to playing those scenes that I would be more "impressed" by those scenes when I'd play them, but it was almost a case of "that was it?". It felt really overblown, by us in LT discussions, but there are still impressions that those scenes left me with:

- in the sewers, Tifa can only ask this question to Cloud "how did you know her?" because there is more than friendship between the two. This is a case of showcasing that their relationship is not "just friends". There is a little doubt planted in Tifa's mind that does get resolved in the fourth scene, but it's not that deep​

​

- yes Cloud definitely asked BOTH how they were but I think more notably this scene is a hint of the Mount Nibel memory when both him and Tifa fell. Cloud was literally frozen and looking at where she fell because it did shock him that much. I don't think that he actually remembers it, mind you but true!Cloud underneath was certainly shook enough to show up there.​

- in the next scene, I felt no trace of LT, to be very honest; the French is very clear that Aerith is trying to cheer up Tifa who's absolutely deeply scared of ghosts - and Cloud doesn't fare that much better either. In this level, we can see that Tifa often remains very close to Cloud because she is scared - she also seeks Aerith's protection. Aside the fact that Cloud goes "OMG girls are touching me, what do I do?", there's not much LT-side. As Toriyama pointed it, it's not that deep, it was just made for fun for the player rather than for the LT element of the story.​

​

- last scene is when Cloud saves the girls against the wagon, and this scene is interesting because if you follow me, this is mainly a cloti reinforcement scene; it doesn't truly needs to be here but it is, because Cloud actually *needs* to save Tifa and to make her know about it. This scene is very intimate in a way, and you can see Aerith intruding - it's there to show the player that no matter what, Tifa will always get a different treatment.​

But then again, those were very fleeting feelings; none of those scene truly made a lasting impression on me - did I watch them too often to try to interpret them? Or does playing give another vibe altogether? @odekopeko insists it's the latter and I do find it interesting that it's mostly true; I didn't think much about all the flirting between Cloud and Tifa in chapter 3, but when I played I was overwhelmed. The feeling left by Aerith was very different, as they were building their friendship. I think however interesting how they're like puzzle pieces that assemble towards a greater narrative, as far as LT and characterisation are concerned. I can clearly see, in game, how Tifa has an effect on Cloud and how their scenes, may they be alone or not, have an intimacy that others don't have.

I guess this is why I've the heavy feeling that the devs are out to kill the LT (yes, even though I expect Cloud and Aerith to have nice scenes in Rebirth). I'm just like "be my guests" lol. In the way it's filmmed, narrated, the characterisation, the situation, they've decided to leave no blurry area for the LT - probably due to the realism that goes with this game.

 

[LNK]

are the dismantled books canon?

 

[null]

Mostly canon, I think? It's official and made in collaboration with the FF7 developer team. The staff interviews and commentary are probably still considered canon. Some parts (like the character diaries) were written by Benny Matsuyama, who's a hired gun so there's some room for debate there. Canon is a fuzzy word at any rate and needs context. What sort of LTD shenanigans are we dealing with?

There's also a thread for Dismantled translations if you haven't already seen it. You might be able to get TurquoiseHammer's attention for specific questions if you don't get a better answer here.

 

[Makoeyes987]

They're probably talking about the inner monologues of the characters throughout FFVII Benny wrote for Dismantled, which would be of the same "canon" worth that Maiden is.

 

[LNK]

Mostly canon, I think? It's official and made in collaboration with the FF7 developer team. The staff interviews and commentary are probably still considered canon. Some parts (like the character diaries) were written by Benny Matsuyama, who's a hired gun so there's some room for debate there. Canon is a fuzzy word at any rate and needs context. What sort of LTD shenanigans are we dealing with?

There's also a thread for Dismantled translations if you haven't already seen it. You might be able to get TurquoiseHammer's attention for specific questions if you don't get a better answer here.

Eh. Ya know. The normal. Aerith and Cloud are lovers

They're probably talking about the inner monologues of the characters throughout FFVII Benny wrote for Dismantled, which would be of the same "canon" worth that Maiden is.

Ok. That's what I figured

 

[eleamaya]

I have a Wiki account so I edit Zerith, Cloti, and Clerith page on the Shipping Wikia.

The admin usually put a canon status of both Cloti and Clerith in the info box as "semi-canon" but since I add a section named "Development" in the three of them, also edit in Fanon section that both Zerith and Cloti are "rival ship" to Clerith (not only Cloti); the Cloti one is now "canon" even if there's Clerith fans who put it back to "semi-canon", the admin will revert it. You can check it here and tell me what information from the devs that I miss:

https://shipping.fandom.com/wiki/Zerith#Development
https://shipping.fandom.com/wiki/Clerith#Development
https://shipping.fandom.com/wiki/Cloti#Development

In addition, I write about Dismantled's Diary Entries section and "Maiden who Travels The Planet" to clear up the confusion on
https://shipping.fandom.com/wiki/Zerith#Fanon

I also put the source of "Cloud and Tifa confirm mutual feelings under the Highwind" here:




Though, I dont edit Cloti section much since "Trace of Two Pasts" section is still empty.

 

[Stiggie]

I hope the remake really clarifies how she feels about Zack after meeting Cloud because she doesn’t seem to dwell on him much in the OG

I never really understand this position, because to me it feels like dwelling on Zack is pretty firmly established as Aeriths main character arc in FFVII in regards to romance.

There is a slight nuance here that I think is actually really important.
Some people say that Aerith in FFVII is "falling in love with Cloud", I say she's "getting over Zack".
It's the same process, but the focus is very different. Just falling in love with Cloud isn't a character arc, it's just a mechanic. What really shows "growth" is Aerith accepting the past and moving on.

I've always seen Cloud as being very much of secondary importance here, it's not about Cloud, it's about Zack (and Aerith), and how Cloud helps her get to terms with that.

The reason I say so is because in my opinion Aeriths storyarc in FFVII in regards to Zack is firmly wedged between two scenes that together constitute what people pretend as the "evidence for Clerith". Namely the two dates.

Ignoring the single flower scene, the real first meeting with Cloud and Aerith is when he falls through her roof, like Zack did. Zack falling through the roof is a CC thing so I will ignore that since we're talking about OG. However the OG still implies pretty strongly later on that Aerith here is latching onto Cloud because of his similarities to Zack, Cloud is essentially a stand-in.

Anyway, the first thing they do, their first meeting, is a date. And what is Aerith working up to during this date? Asking about Zack. This date is about Zack. This sets-up her characters journey, and it's not about Cloud, it's about Zack. The remake makes this more explicit "gotta look forward, not back". But the OG already implies this.

Then we have the journey, where despite people's beliefs to the contrary, not much romance happens. What mostly happens is that Clouds fake persona is being set-up, which will later be revealed to be based on Zack, which gives context to what was actually happening between Aerith and Cloud during said journey and why Cloud could help her through this. In fact, the most emotional moment in regards to romance is again related to Zack, it's the scene where we meet the parents in Gongaga. This is the second clue we get about Aerith, hinting at the past that is underlying her current actions. Zacks name was hinted at during the first date, here more is revealed. On a second playthrough we can understand that Aerith coming to terms with her feelings regarding Zack by traveling with someone whose personality is based on Zack is most definitely "about Zack", not Cloud. The whole "I have 23 tiny little wishes, but I've combined them into 1, I want to spend more time with you" thing again just makes explicit what the OG already heavily implied, that what Aerith is getting to do through her journey with Cloud was to "spend more time with Zack". Cloud is Zacks living legacy, he essentially takes on Zacks duty here by narratively allowing Zack to fulfill Aeriths wish post mortem.

Then the second bookend of this story comes in the form of the second date in the golden saucer, a date which is once again defined by Aerith talking about Zack. That is the subject, that's the plot point getting addressed. Aerith is now pointing out how she saw Zack again in Cloud, but that it's not the same, that he's not the same, and that she wants to get to know the real him.

This marks the end of this particular story beat. We have Aerith seeing Zack in Cloud, her coming to terms with her past in regards to Zack by traveling with Cloud, and here we have her finally letting the past rest. While the entire story is about "gotta look forward, not back" everything prior to this point wasn't "aerith looking forward", but Aerith "getting to the point where she can start looking forward", that's the arc. The whole "acceptance of the past" thing is a recurring theme in FFVII, for Aerith this applies both to Zack, as her heritage as an ancient. Again, through Cloud Zack has now fulfilled her one wish, and by doing so she can now finally move on.

Anyway, it's after this scene that Aerith starts looking at the future, it's after this scene that Aeriths story with Cloud is about Cloud, and not Zack. This is made virtually explicit when we move from the golden saucer to the temple of the ancients, and what happens? We have Aerith asking Caith sith about her future with Cloud. This is the first, the one and only, romantic moment between Cloud and Aerith that is truly about Cloud. (or well, it's still about Zack, since Clouds personality is based off him, but at the very least Aerith is now looking at Cloud for Cloud, and not because she longs after Zack).

And then, having completed her story-arc, she dies at the most tragic moment, right after she accepts the past and starts looking at the future.

 

[Eerie]

I agree with you and I think that's probably one of the naggy things for me about Zerith; in the OG, she is supposed to move on from Zack. Sure, by falling for Cloud who is copying a vast amount of his personality - which Aerith does notice but is also attracted to - but still, Aerith *does* move on.

However in Lifestream White, she states that she loved Cloud using past tense; does that mean that her feelings for him by the time CoLW happen are in the past and only some nostalgia remains? Similarly, ACC ends in a Zerith note, and we know that "at all time, her first love Zack is by her side". And I think this needs explanations, really. We truly do need their reunion because... wasn't she supposed to be over him? To me there's this link never explained about Aerith's feelings between her death and the end of ACC so it feels disconnected.

If my theory about the Aerith we see in her resolution in Remake is true, then it would mean that this Aerith is dead, but hasn't met Zack yet; she is still pained by her one-sided feelings (she doesn't want to fall for Cloud and I think people don't really pay attention to what the devs are saying because once that truly sinks in.... oh boy, the implications of this are huge for Aerith's character) and clearly she hasn't gotten closure on these feelings yet. Seeing her pained face is actually what made me truly believe that the devs were going to give the fans and Aerith a reunion with Zack which will settle those feelings. I also think this is the version of Aerith who sent her younger self memories of the future so she could fight Sephiroth better - and she sent none about Zack because obviously she doesn't know what has happened exactly yet?

Thinking about Aerith and Zack in the Lifestream, there is a lot to be said about what happen to feelings in general once you die; anger, love, hatred... Very obviously Sephiroth hangs onto Cloud's hatred for him to continue living way past his demise, so that means these feelings do still exist. In the same way I remember an ads in Famitsu talking about Dissidia and how Cloud and Tifa were connected through the Lifestream's memories despite the fact that they were made to forget about their true selves in the game (I'll try to get that quote but it's... somewhere in my chat with peko lol).

But I once thought that once you died all those feelings were washed away and you didn't get to really feel anything once dead. Like you're dead, it's game over. It doesn't seem to be the case for a few selected ones, namely Aerith and Zack and Cloud and Tifa. How Zack can "survive" in the Lifestream is a mystery - Aerith's probably behind this, isn't she? I do feel that they probably allowed themselves to dissolve in the Lifestream after AC/C, but maybe not (depending if they want to make a new game/story etc. where they appear lol). Anyway sorry for the rambling, but I feel there is much to discover there and I really really hope that like what I once hoped - that we'd get to see Aerith's side once she'd die - will be seen in Re- series (maybe not before the third game I guess?).

 

[Stiggie]

The thing about lifestream white is that the phrasing, at least in english, can mean two things. If I remember correctly the phrasing is "for she had loved him", that could either indicate that she no longer loves him, but could just as easily be a reference to the fact that she's talking about herself as she had been in life. When I say I loved my grandmother I don't mean I no longer love her, I just mean "she's dead", works the same in reverse.
I've been studying japanese lately but unfortunately I'm not yet good enough to translate scripts so I can't say much about the japanese version since by necessity I wouldn't be judging the japanese version but an english translation someone else has made. All I know is that she said "koibito" and that Cloud was "symbolic" of that and other things.

While this is the one piece of media where the phrasing does seem a bit weirdly chosen I don't think it should be given much more meaning than just "Aerith had a crush on Cloud when she died". Shipper tend to over analyse every sentence. "wait, aerith had a crush on cloud when she died? Does that mean no longer? does that mean the real Cloud?". Nah, don't overcomplicate it, she just had a crush, not every sentence is a statement about Cloud vs Zack or any of that.

We truly do need their reunion because... wasn't she supposed to be over him? To me there's this link never explained about Aerith's feelings between her death and the end of ACC so it feels disconnected.

This is another thing that I think people conflate unnecessarily. Just because you're over someone doesn't mean you no longer love them, or are even no longer in love with them. I still love my grandmother after all, even if I've come to terms with her death.
When your spouse dies you can come to terms with that, that doesn't mean you no longer love them, it doesn't mean that if you were reunited with them in an afterlife you wouldn't immediately run crying into their arms. They are two completely different concepts.
Aerith comes to terms with Zacks death, or at the very least him being gone....but she still loves him, that has never changed.

How Zack can "survive" in the Lifestream is a mystery - Aerith's probably behind this, isn't she? I do feel that they probably allowed themselves to dissolve in the Lifestream after AC/C,

Oh I definitely think Zack and aerith are meant to dissolve after AC/C. This comes back to the concept of the "memetic legacy". Sephiroth in AC/C is the external physical threat that is tied to the inner struggles of the protagonist.
Cloud has to let go of the past, it's his refusal to let go of Aerith and Zack that symbolically chains them to this world. Cloud can't let go of his feelings. And it's that same concept that allows Sephiroth to survive, because Clouds hatred for him essentially turns him into a horcrux.

The words 'memetic legacy’ are used a lot in the film but in AC, rather than focusing on memories we
wanted to show that consciousness is what lives on. We took the ending of the game and expanded on that idea.
Even if they’re dead their consciousness is still with us. As for Cloud… he sees Aerith several times throughout
the film. It’s not that he sees her because he feels her presence. He sees her because her consciousness
lives on inside him.

If memories and life are all made up form lifestream, then a memory of a person is really like a small part of them still exists in this world. Which is how Sephiroth manages to survive and return. The thematic conclusion to all this comes in the form of Cloud going "stay in my memories, where you belong", signifying that Cloud is done living in the past, he's going on, and leaving Sephiroth there.
Similarly Cloud accepting the past finally allows Aerith and Zack to also move on, signifying that by refusing to let the past go he wasn't honoring them or attoning or anything, he was letting something that was beautiful be slowly poisoned. Aerith and Zack wouldn't want Cloud to live feeling guilty in their name. That just does them more pain, they want Cloud to let them go and to live his life, that's how he honors them, that's how he fulfills his role as Zacks living legacy.
That concept is then shown by the flowers being plated on Zacks grave, and Zacks bustersword being planted in Aeriths church. Now shining, by letting the past go Cloud lets it be beautiful, and Aerith and Zack can finally rest.

 

[Maidenofwar]

I disagree to an extent on some things, I don't think it took all the way to the Gold Saucer for Aerith to be interested in Cloud for Cloud. We know the scene where she asks Marlene what Cloud is like is Canon ( at least in OG) because of the Ultimania with Marlene's profile and that information. At least for OG is the case and other Ultimania stuffs such as her sensing the truth and wanting to know more. Remake could be different, to one extreme or the other depending on how much they want to destroy or enforce this, or just remain relatively balanced and stick to OG/ Ultimania Canon.

 

[Eerie]

I'm honestly very curious of how they're going to handle Aerith in Rebirth. I do think we're going to have more Zerith, especially in Gongaga, but there isn't much romance past Midgar in the OG, so they're definitely going to add stuff that will recontextualise how we're supposed to see Aerith during this part of the game.

@Stiggie thanks for the informative post! Though of course I know that Aerith still cherishes Zack, I think the fact that she fell for Cloud in the mean time is an obstacle to their feelings. Because if you fall for someone, reuniting with your first love will always feel different. There can be a lot of feelings associated with that person (especially if you reunite in death I guess), ranging from nostalgia to not wanting them nearby to discover that you still love them like you always did. Of course, given it's Aerith, she cherishes Zack, but is her love for him the same as it always was? I think the devs ought to explore that especially because the last words we have from Aerith herself is that the last person she loved was Cloud. It creates a lot of interpretations that can vary (especially since some people are still stuck on Maiden), and there's still a weird gap and interrogation surrounding Zack.

 

[eleamaya]

I could tell this is Aerith's journey from CC ending

Anyway, it's after this scene that Aerith starts looking at the future, it's after this scene that Aeriths story with Cloud is about Cloud, and not Zack. This is made virtually explicit when we move from the golden saucer to the temple of the ancients,

There's a scene I wonder, the fact that Aerith left the group in Gongaga. The place where Cloud wake up after Temple of Ancient incident is none other than Gongaga while it could be really random place or town they didn't visit before. I read doujinshi about it while ofc it's just plain headcanon, Zack and Aerith's business is likely finished up here offscreen (one has story that she visit the graveyard accepting that he's gone, one has story that she meet his parents again), before she went by herself under the sky she's supposed to fear as her brave action to protect the Planet AND Cloud "lemme handle this, I dont want you to break down". Idk if you're familiar with Rurouni Kenshin, this process is similar to how Tomoe leave Kenshin to protect him when he slept, after the night she unleash the grief and let go of her fiancee's death; that she want to not let the man who gives her new happiness, the second man she loves, die, too.

I just wish Rebirth could show this. I'm also not sure Rebirth would keep the dialogue of her asking Cait Sith's fortune about her compatibility with Cloud because it will taint her friendship with Tifa since Remake has establish it better than OG ever show. They could remove the dialogue in Midori Park between Cloud & Aerith that she and Zack weren't dating / serious, why not they remove Cait's fortune too?

through Cloud Zack has now fulfilled her one wish, and by doing so she can now finally move on.

No one can't move on without closure, and her closure is not "Cloud replacing Zack to spend more time with her" IMO, it would never be the same and won't give her closure. She had let go of Zack, yes, not viewing Cloud as his shadow anymore; letting go is moving on process but not yet has completely move on. "Let go" is the definition of finally removing the pain, you're not hurt anymore while "Moved on" is the next and final step which is forgetting you ever had the pain. Before FF7, she has known he returned to Planet but can't let go of the death itself, and then, she always want to know what happen to him but afraid to ask. Her closure is the answer of "why he cannot spend more time with me / why we can't be together? / why did he die?" Now after accepting/letting go, she's ready to hear. If she made it alive when Cloud regain his memories and tell her, she would get closure because she definitely know that Zack never meant to not fulfill her wish, that he tried to come back to her. It's all what she need to hear, that he does love her too. I think the day before final battle is the time for everyone to get closure as they go back to their home or they can't be ready for the fight to win. After battle, they are all moving on (except for Vincent who never try before Dirge) and finally have moved on. And if Tifa didn't exist, I'd root for Aerith's happy ending with Cloud as she loves him, too.

So, even if she can now finally move on, her death make her not completely moved on yet.

Another example, Zack also doesnt move on yet from Angeal's death, but he has let go of him the time he changed his hair style. The closure he needs is if he felt finally embracing his dream and becoming a hero as Angeal taught him but we know the time skip is him still questioning what does he fight for and he keep asking "Angeal, what should I do?" Ironically, his closure is when Angeal pick his spirit up, reassuring. Ironically, the same goes with Aerith, her closure is when she reunite with Zack, too, that now they're together as her wish "isshou ni tai desu".

 

[frosty]

I'm honestly very curious of how they're going to handle Aerith in Rebirth

Same. I'm more curious about how they handle Zerith moving forward, instead of C/T, because portraying Aerith's character motivations as good and pure now is delicate.

- What will the audiences feel to see her fall in love with Cloud when the story of her falling in love with Zack is still fresh with CCR? I want to know if it's going to fuel more Zack vs. Cloud twitter shenanigans because there was already years of pitting two women against one another i.e Tifa vs. Aerith

- What kind of character will she be perceived to be ( esp. after showing the friendship that she's built with Tifa) to ask Cait Sith about her and Cloud's romantic fortune - if indeed that was the turning point for her to love Cloud for Cloud? Will it still be "awh sho cute" or "omg THAT MAN STEALING BIYATCH". Already I've seen someone on Twitter say Aerith is a bit of "a hoe" . Bad take, but, Twitter will Twitter.

- What kind of character will Cloud be, if he's shown to reciprocate both women's affections towards him? Remake not withstanding because don't think anyone took Jessie seriously (except that one guy)

I know shippers hate it, but I have my popcorn ready for Rebirth.

Though of course I know that Aerith still cherishes Zack, I think the fact that she fell for Cloud in the mean time is an obstacle to their feelings. Because if you fall for someone, reuniting with your first love will always feel different.

But let's look at the timeline here - did I get it right to assume she sent her 89th letter hoping that she'd get a response from Zack just a week before FF7 started?

She meets Cloud for all of 3-4 weeks. If they're keeping consistent with her 30th anniversary monologue (which I assume happens during the events of 7 before she dies) - she's still says she feels a kind of sadness if she were to move on with a new love - implying shes still stuck.

Then there's the weirdness of Advent Children. If we say Aerith was moving on from Zack, falling for Cloud and it becomes a hindrance to her reuniting with Zack...why are they hanging out in the Lifestream together posthumous? D:

Is it weird if this thread is then renamed as the LSD? (Love Square Debate)

 

[eleamaya]

But let's look at the timeline here - did I get it right to assume she sent her 89th letter hoping that she'd get a response from Zack a week before FF7 started?

I'm curious about the timeline because Aerith said "it's been four years" while the time Zack received the letter has been five years since he went to Nibelheim in Sep 0002 (Zack woke up in December 0006 and on the run for 9 months as he died in September 0007, three months before FF7 started in Dec 0007)

 

[frosty]

Ah right, so I had it wrong, I somehow thought FF7 started immediately after Zack died

April 0001 - Zack falls into Aerith's church
Sept 0002 - Nibelhiem incident
Dec 0006 - Zack and Cloud escape - wants to get to Midgar after seeing Aerith's "tiny wishes"

Wiki puts Sept 0007 as the date that Zack defeats Genesis, and he receives Aerith's last letter from the Angeal copy.

So they we're together for a year++, separated for 5, and Aerith stopped writing to him for a year already (and the Angeal copy took 9 months to find Zack?!)

Now I need to know how they spent 008 - 0010 before they popped up together to pep talk AC Cloud

 

[eleamaya]

Together for 1,5 years. Long distance relationship is count as they still talk in Nibelheim via phone call.
And yes, the fact that Zack defeating Genesis is just few weeks or days away from his death shows how he rush to Midgar right after receiving her letters.

 

[Eerie]

Yeah Zack still dies in September, Cloud takes a bit longer to come to Midgar once he's on his own (since he arrives the day prior to the first mission). Also I saw that tweet @frosty it was just pure garbage in a very Twitter way.

I truly think that the Compilation points to Zack being Aerith's "one true love" so to speak. Not that she doesn't fall for Cloud, but... I think that her feelings haven't gotten the time to get really deep like they did for Zack. And, for the record, I am *not* a ZA shipper but I could definitely feel Remake pulling me towards ZA really, really hard lol. In that sense, and especially since her resolution + ending scenes, I can feel that the dev team is gunning for a ZA reunion.

Once she dies, in CoLW it's very clear that fighting Sephiroth becomes her number 1 priority and that all those emotions like love are still important to her - but it's a clear departure of the OG where she was very interested in having a love life. But I still think that there are gaps that the devs can fill there!

 

[Stiggie]

Is it weird if this thread is then renamed as the LSD? (Love Square Debate

Been arguing this for years, no clue why people still call it the LTD. Well I do have a clue, I think it's because once you call it for what it is, a love square, the outcome becomes painfully obvious, which half the fandom doesn't want XD