SPOILERS LTD Remake — It's like New Coke except ... no, it's exactly like New Coke
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GamerSkull
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Nobody denies that Cloud had romantic feelings for Aerith.
However, his feelings for Tifa arguably stronger.
The problem is Clerith can only be a thing in a non-Cloti world, which just does not exist.
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r_monk
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I actually wish people would stop referring Aerith's death like this. It's insensitive and reminds me of the first wave of the ship wars. Honestly, they need to grow up.
billy22
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You're smarter than the rest of us, then.
Definitely not common to interlock fingers. It just has some open leeway, whereas the kissing does not.
I don't have much of a problem with it, given the context. This is a woman who literally just died in his arms, and he was partially responsible for it. And yeah, I realize he doesn't understand she's gone, but the player does. Describing them both as "platonic friends" is also bit of a disservice. It's just a question as to whether Cloud wanted to get romantically involved with her. You can have complex relationships with other people without wanting to romance them.
The handholding is still a clear line. He has shown he will engage in physical intimacy with Tifa, but if handholding is as far as he'll go with [ghost] Aerith I genuinely don't know how seriously I'm supposed to accept that they want(ed) to romance each other. Imagine if the Triss/Yennefer romance in the Witcher 3 only had a confession/kissing/sex with Triss, while the Yen romance was just handholding, hugging, walking around and talking...everyone would have laughed at the idea that we were supposed to consider that a serious romance option.
This is moot of course if the next game gives you the option to confess to either Tifa or Aerith's ghost. But at that point we'll all just have to accept that the romance isn't meant to be taken seriously and is just a self-insert.
I do not believe that is how they intend to approach this however, because if that were the case Aerith would have had more of a concrete romance in this game- a game where she dies. Square has also yet to show in Final Fantasy games that they are willing to leave these types of character-defining narrative choices up to the player, and they don't want to make Cloud look like a womanizer. Hence, the line for handholding with the deceased character, but the growing romance for Tifa which will be highlighted in the Lifestream/Highwind sequences.
GamerSkull
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AncientGrimoire
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It’s simple.
Aerith is not a threat to a Cloud and Tifa relationship, romantic or otherwise.
Tifa is a threat to a Cloud and Aerith romantic relationship. And not just because she’s another woman that Cloud has feelings for. But because she is THE ONLY one who can heal Cloud. And they are so playing this up in Rebirth. The simple fact that has been reinforced again and again that Cloud wants to be someone special to Tifa, and Tifa is the only one who can find the real Cloud and help piece his mind back together.
We didn’t need Zack and Crisis Core for this to be an already established fact of the story.
We didn’t need Cloud and Tifa kissing in Rebirth either.
They all back up what was already the case back in 1997.
This has been mentioned in the excellent essay that Insane Hobbit wrote, but if they wanted to firmly establish Aerith as the sole romantic interest for Cloud as some Clerith’s so feverishly believe, then they would have gone ALL in establishing that after Aerith’s death.
But surprise surprise in the OG, after Aerith dies, Tifa is the one who gets prominence. Tifa is the one who is established as Cloud’s romantic interest (much as Aerith was also in Disc 1) and the Lifestream and the Highwind only reinforce this to the point where if anyone is still disproving the romantic relationship of Cloud and Tifa come the end of the original, and even worse perpetuating this charade still after Rebirth goes further to establish the romantic connection that Cloud is able to have with both women despite the narrative still inevitably favouring Tifa given Aerith still dies and Part 3 is yet to come, then you’re actively choosing to engage in a story where for the narrative you perceive to work, you have to excise entire swathes of the story and characters in order for your head canon to actually work. And when that’s all you have, with everything else taken away, all that you have left is something that isn’t a very good love story. Because for the love story you want to work, entire characters (including Cloud and Aerith’s own characterisations) have to be completely rewritten, and by that point why are you even still engaging with this story?
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LunarTarotGirl
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I'll admit I really don't know what that word entails. In general though, I'll admit I really don't worry much about things like canon. Canon is whatever the story and writer tells me. But I think to me the relationship is mostly undefined. It can be a deep platonic or a friendship but if that is the case a very romantic looking platonic friendship to me. I can see it both ways.So CA is semi canon
And in comparison CT and ZA are very defined. And not up to interpretation. While CA has a lot of open endedness.
But CA is a more spiritual connection that because of it's nature I do think can be interpreted as somewhere between friendship but not just that and almost romance. But that's just me.
GamerSkull
Pro Adventurer
Honestly hoping that Part 3 does more for when Tifa becomes party leader. In the OG, you just have her figuring out where Cloud is by asking NPCs and then once you get to Mideel, Cid takes over. Cid actually gets to do a couple of quests as party leader… hoping they give more to Tifa this time around.
Plus, might be nice to see a little more of how she copes with Cloud’s disappearance since in this scenario he’ll be absent for a tad longer.
Plus, might be nice to see a little more of how she copes with Cloud’s disappearance since in this scenario he’ll be absent for a tad longer.
thetriplerhyme
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Man I hope he gets a happy ending though. Zack is the best. He was quite literally too good for the world.
- I super agree I mean I think Zack's is like the 'perfect' man and yet his flaws are FATE. Things just wont stay permanent with him. He deserves a proper ending with Aerith.
thetriplerhyme
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- sorry i respectfully disagree.. He never had any romantic feelings for Aerith at all! But he sure seems like he feels responsible for her being a comrade and Zack ask him to 'take care of Aerith' when he dies hence for me its was sort of like a comrade kind-of-feeling.
GamerSkull
Pro Adventurer
Nah, I definitely feel there were the beginnings of romance between Aerith and Cloud. That’s partially what makes her death tragic among other things.
However, had Aerith lived… and Real Cloud got his memories back, I’m of the mind that Cloud would choose Tifa over her.
However, had Aerith lived… and Real Cloud got his memories back, I’m of the mind that Cloud would choose Tifa over her.
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I repeat, it depends on what you mean by Cloud. Braindamaged Soldier Cloud probably had some romantic feelings for Aerith, although i think calling them romantic is already giving it too much credit. I go back to Tidus having a thing for Rikku at some point. I think Soldier Cloud has confusing feelings concerning Aerith where attraction is a part of it, as well as as a lot of other types of fondness.
But here is the thing, even for Soldier Cloud, I think what he feels for Aerith isn't the same as what he feels for Tifa, not just in scope, but also in nature, and what he feels for Tifa is undoubtedly love.
And when it comes to brain restored Cloud, I also simply do not think that Cloud has any romantic attraction towards Aerith, I think restored Cloud is a Cloud who has set his confused feelings in order, and feels love for Tifa, and sees Aerith as a dear companion.
faefolk
Pro Adventurer
Attraction and being enamored by someone falls under romantic feelings to some degree. These I think Cloud had towards Aerith and vice versa. That doesn't equal to love.
Brain damaged Soldier Cloud is still Cloud though? Like yes he's confused and more susceptible to attraction to Aerith without his full memories of Tifa - but he was in that position the entire time he knew Aerith.. therefore he had an attraction to Aerith. You can't insert a later version of Cloud into their dynamic because that just doesn't work.
Also I hate this logic anyways. It gives credence to the Clerith argument that Clouds kiss with Tifa doesn't count just because he was mentally messed up at the time.
Look.. I feel somewhat strongly about this as someone who suffered from dissociative episodes earlier in my adulthood and some serious mental health issues. Did I act in ways that were out of character during the period I was most unstable? Yes, ofcourse. But were those things still me? Also yes. Would I have chosen the same romantic partners had I been stable at the time? Almost certainly not. But it's still part of me, part of my story. Those connections still existed and I have emotional ties to those people and memories - regardless of how 'not myself' I was. Because I was still me in the sense that those experiences were still mine - no matter how out of character. So I truly, truly relate to Cloud as a character and even though I'm a diehard Cloti fan - Aerith was a very significant person to him in a very unstable time and she brought happiness to him. I know what it's like to be attached to the memory of a significant person when you come out of the other side of a mental breakdown. Tbh it's very easy to form some kind of romantic/attraction attachment when you're that vulnerable. I think that's what happened with Cloud and Aerith.
Btw just adding on I ended up marrying my childhood sweetheart when I came out of my mental breakdown lmao. Not even kidding
Yes and no, by definition anything you do is still you, yes. But I disagree with the idea that if one interaction isn't genuine that that means all interactions aren't genuine. The difference of "would you have done it had you been sound of mind" is one that matters, the difference being that that determines whether the action comes from you or whether it comes from the thing that is altering your state of mind. And when it comes to matters of relevance and importance, whether you'd do it if you had your full faculties has to count for something, I refuse to accept that Cloud punching the ever-loving crap out of Aerith at the temple of the ancients is "just also Cloud".Attraction and being enamored by someone falls under romantic feelings to some degree. These I think Cloud had towards Aerith and vice versa. That doesn't equal to love.
Brain damaged Soldier Cloud is still Cloud though? Like yes he's confused and more susceptible to attraction to Aerith without his full memories of Tifa - but he was in that position the entire time he knew Aerith.. therefore he had an attraction to Aerith. You can't insert a later version of Cloud into their dynamic because that just doesn't work.
Also I hate this logic anyways. It gives credence to the Clerith argument that Clouds kiss with Tifa doesn't count just because he was mentally messed up at the time.
Look.. I feel somewhat strongly about this as someone who suffered from dissociative episodes earlier in my adulthood and some serious mental health issues. Did I act in ways that were out of character during the period I was most unstable? Yes, ofcourse. But were those things still me? Also yes. Would I have chosen the same romantic partners had I been stable at the time? Almost certainly not. But it's still part of me, part of my story. Those connections still existed and I have emotional ties to those people and memories - regardless of how 'not myself' I was. Because I was still me in the sense that those experiences were still mine - no matter how out of character. So I truly, truly relate to Cloud as a character and even though I'm a diehard Cloti fan - Aerith was a very significant person to him in a very unstable time and she brought happiness to him. I know what it's like to be attached to the memory of a significant person when you come out of the other side of a mental breakdown. Tbh it's very easy to form some kind of romantic/attraction attachment when you're that vulnerable. I think that's what happened with Cloud and Aerith.
Btw just adding on I ended up marrying my childhood sweetheart when I came out of my mental breakdown lmao. Not even kidding
As an example, if you drink a potion that elevates feelings of aggression, then you being aggressive towards someone isn't "genuine", but conversely, the fact that you are NOT aggressive towards someone else isn't made less genuine, in fact it demonstrates that your fondness for that person is extra genuine. If Soldier Clouds persona were to make him more likely to "pretend to be into Tifa", then I'd say that pointing that out is valid, but it's not, in fact the entire Soldier persona started because of Tifa, so acting as though he's only into her because of it, when the only reason it exists is because he's into her, is absurd. Acknowledging that Clouds altered state of mind matters doesn't "give credence" to that argument, because there is such a thing as nuance.
thetriplerhyme
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- ah okay i know what you mean I can take that thanks!
- hardcore ones are main people who said otherwise. LMAO the greatest cope is its JENOVA
BTW i forgot who said it~ thanks for letting me know about chapter 14 Zack's Interlude Story connects to Aerith's dream date on that pulgatory place and hence its connected by location w/c means you'll skip Zack's you'll also skip the dream date. THAAANK YOU
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faefolk
Pro Adventurer
I mean, you can't use Cloud attacking Aerith because in that instance it truly wasn't Cloud, it was Sephiroth controlling him. That's a whole different kettle of fish to mental instability. That's like.. being possessed which is nothing you can compare to real life.
And sure, the other stuff when he's not literally possessed by Sephiroths will is not reflective of his choices when stable. But they're still him. As much as I would like to, I can't erase responsibility and ownership for two whole years from my life just because I was mentally unstable. And truthfully I wouldn't want to, because they still make up the story of me and provided me with meaningful lessons and connections. So mentally unstable Cloud is still Cloud. Those experiences he has during that period are integral parts of who he grows to be. He still retains the memories of those years once he comes back to himself and is stable again. He grieves many of his actions during those times - but also treasures the connections made. It's all part of his story and I don't think people should discredit that. Connections you form during periods of mental instability are not less valid because of your mental state. Implying that is insulting to Clouds character but tbh it's also kind of insulting also to anyone in real life who has ever suffered from mental instability.
I don't feel the need to validate Clouds connection to Tifa by invalidating his very real and precious bond with Aerith. I think every connection he formed and kept in such a fragile place is really beautiful. And ofcourse the girl who was with him, loving him before, during and after that period is the real MVP. We love us a Tifa.
Graymouse
Pro Adventurer
I love how during the dates at the GS the Devs used "Clouds Theme" for some of the resolutions.
It is really interesting on Tifa GS High Intimate date on the very moment when Cloud holds out his hand and Tifa takes it and Cloud pulls her into the hug and the all so familiar notes rings out!!
Funny little story about when I played the OG game, I used to sit out in the open field and just listen to "Cloud's Theme" on repeat. Spent hours just standing out in the open world and having that in the background.
It is really interesting on Tifa GS High Intimate date on the very moment when Cloud holds out his hand and Tifa takes it and Cloud pulls her into the hug and the all so familiar notes rings out!!
Funny little story about when I played the OG game, I used to sit out in the open field and just listen to "Cloud's Theme" on repeat. Spent hours just standing out in the open world and having that in the background.
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GamerSkull
Pro Adventurer
I did this as well, in Kalm and the ascent to Corel (the mine rails) when Holding my Thoughts in my Heart would play.
I do this sometime with both Remake and Rebirth as well, if I like a background track I’ll pose Cloud somewhere where there is a nice view and then just listen to the tunes.
Empyrea
Pro Adventurer
I used to mind the idea that Cloud might have been attracted to Aerith myself. But well, now, I'm of the mind that that's the beauty of love triangles and why it's such a popular thing. It can be really heartwarming that even when other, sometimes more appealing and/or exciting, option(s) is right before either one of the main pair, they still end up together in the end. Not because the other option(s) don't mean anything to them but because their chosen partner is the one they love above all else.
That said, it all comes down to execution. Anime has the problem that the main pair can be borderline problematic/unhealthy sometimes while soaps of old had one participant be almost evil personified just to highlight how good the main girl is (ugh... Mom, I hate that I had to sit through one of those with you).
There's also the issue that in some series, when the non-winning pair becomes too popular, the devs/writers gives the other side more crumbs than is acceptable/reasonable or outright refuse to end the triangle at all (which I loathe... I know money is involved sometimes, but can you guys please stick to your guns?).
To this day, Tales of Legendia stands out to me as one of those stories with a love triangle that was solved without too much drama. I'm a Senel/Chloe shipper but in canon, Chloe herself recognizes her feelings are one-sided and even becomes really close friends with her rival once they squared that out.
That said, it all comes down to execution. Anime has the problem that the main pair can be borderline problematic/unhealthy sometimes while soaps of old had one participant be almost evil personified just to highlight how good the main girl is (ugh... Mom, I hate that I had to sit through one of those with you).
There's also the issue that in some series, when the non-winning pair becomes too popular, the devs/writers gives the other side more crumbs than is acceptable/reasonable or outright refuse to end the triangle at all (which I loathe... I know money is involved sometimes, but can you guys please stick to your guns?).
To this day, Tales of Legendia stands out to me as one of those stories with a love triangle that was solved without too much drama. I'm a Senel/Chloe shipper but in canon, Chloe herself recognizes her feelings are one-sided and even becomes really close friends with her rival once they squared that out.
Graymouse
Pro Adventurer
I feel that Aerith's GS date both the standard and the intimate one is quite sad. Especially the fact that Aerith wanted Cloud to sit next to her and he sat elsewhere. To add on this I feel a great sadness, especially around the time that Cloud asks Aerith if she has talked to Tifa yet.
The intimate one was heart crushing in my honest opinion. Aerith did get Cloud to open up and take in her hand after she grasped his shoulder. It seemed to make Aerith very happy, if only for the moment.
The intimate one was heart crushing in my honest opinion. Aerith did get Cloud to open up and take in her hand after she grasped his shoulder. It seemed to make Aerith very happy, if only for the moment.
AncientGrimoire
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The argument that the Cloud and Tifa kiss doesn’t count because Cloud is pretending to be someone he’s not is an especially weak one given if you actually properly play through and read and watch everything in the Compilation, then it’s readily apparent that before the Lifestream, Tifa is the only one who is able to get the real Cloud close to the surface of his identity. She is able to bring that out in him in key moments, without even realising it, and it’s painfully obvious that it’s because it goes all the way back to Cloud’s initial desire to be someone special to Tifa, and their promise.
Tifa is the one who balances out the good person Cloud is at his core with his calm, cool and collected mercenary facade. This was said by the developers in regards to the way they portrayed their early relationship in Remake.
Jessie brought out more of the mercenary in Cloud, the need to always be cool appearing and efficient as the mercenary he believed himself to be.
And Aerith was able to bring out the good in Cloud. He still kept up the persona of course, as it’s important that Aerith sees Zack in the way Cloud acts. But the key to their close connection is much how Zack made Aerith comfortable being who she is, and Zack the same to Cloud, Aerith too is able to help bring Cloud out from under his hard shell and do good and be able to have fun.
I mean this is the girl who is able to successfully convince Cloud to dress in drag and participate in a dance in order to save Tifa.
But under all the layers of what Cloud thinks he should be, how he wishes he could be, the Jenova cells and Sephiroth manipulations that are twisting him and making him something he isn’t, is that real person buried deep under the trauma and suffering that he’s endured, and in the original it’s depicted in his subconscious as being the lonely child he was growing up in Nibelheim. And only Tifa knows and has access to that Cloud. She’s the only one who can find him, and the only one that is able to bring out in Cloud the best version of himself.
So yeah, if Cloud was able to act on his desire and feelings when it came to kissing Tifa, it’s because it was him choosing to do so. Cloud of Nibelheim, who wanted to be someone special to Tifa.
Tifa is the one who balances out the good person Cloud is at his core with his calm, cool and collected mercenary facade. This was said by the developers in regards to the way they portrayed their early relationship in Remake.
Jessie brought out more of the mercenary in Cloud, the need to always be cool appearing and efficient as the mercenary he believed himself to be.
And Aerith was able to bring out the good in Cloud. He still kept up the persona of course, as it’s important that Aerith sees Zack in the way Cloud acts. But the key to their close connection is much how Zack made Aerith comfortable being who she is, and Zack the same to Cloud, Aerith too is able to help bring Cloud out from under his hard shell and do good and be able to have fun.
I mean this is the girl who is able to successfully convince Cloud to dress in drag and participate in a dance in order to save Tifa.
But under all the layers of what Cloud thinks he should be, how he wishes he could be, the Jenova cells and Sephiroth manipulations that are twisting him and making him something he isn’t, is that real person buried deep under the trauma and suffering that he’s endured, and in the original it’s depicted in his subconscious as being the lonely child he was growing up in Nibelheim. And only Tifa knows and has access to that Cloud. She’s the only one who can find him, and the only one that is able to bring out in Cloud the best version of himself.
So yeah, if Cloud was able to act on his desire and feelings when it came to kissing Tifa, it’s because it was him choosing to do so. Cloud of Nibelheim, who wanted to be someone special to Tifa.
Special pleading, still Cloud. Either something is affecting your thoughts, or it's not. You don't get to play favorites with what type of thought altering methods count and which don't. I know it feels to you what you're saying is correct here, but it's not, the two are the same.
faefolk
Pro Adventurer
They are definitely, definitely not the same thing. Cloud having delusions caused by grief is mental health issues... Cloud being possessed by Sephiroths is where the fantasy element comes in. I'm not 'playing favourites' I'm using my brain. Cloud not coping with Zacks death and dissociating from reality is not the same as being possessed by Jenova cells. When Cloud takes on Zacks persona he is still himself. When Cloud is possessed by Sephiroths Will he is not even remotely himself. Cloud being enamored with Aerith and thinking he's in soldier is not comparable to Cloud being literally possessed and violently attacking Tifa or Aerith or whatever.
Like I'm not gonna lie.. I'm literally in disbelief that you're comparing those two things. Heck.
And this all started because you say anything Cloud feels for Aerith is because he's not himself prior to Tifa putting him back together. So I guess following that line of thought - Jessie, Biggs, Wedge, Barret etc all have had a non existent or meaningless relationship with him because none of his behaviour was his own before the Lifestream sequence? Or does that logic only apply if it's Aerith? Jfc that's just a bizarre way to cope with the implication that Cloud could have been attracted to Aerith. Which is really just ridiculous in the first place since he very obviously loves Tifa more and humans are capable of attraction to more than one person.
faefolk
Pro Adventurer
I thought it was masterfully done. I felt some tension from like a silent acknowledgement of the possibility of more - but also an acceptance (Cloud through his initial physical distance and Aerith through her talking about Zack) that their hearts are with other people. And yes, I read the handhold as comfort too and definitely was left with a very bittersweet feeling.