SPOILERS LTD Remake — It's like New Coke except ... no, it's exactly like New Coke

[Empyrea]

Semi-canon on this site, refers to one side having feelings for the other. On this site Cloti was always classed as Canon

Ahhhh! Okay, I see! I was taking it too literally xP

 

[Hix]

One trend I'm noticing lately which absolutely grinds my gears is CA supporters continually proclaiming themselves Zack fans, or gushing on how great Zack is.

I'm not sure there are strong enough terms on which I can object to this. On the hand waxing lyrical about how you're such big Zack fans but on the other wishing he gets cucked, dies (again) and spends an eternity alone and miserable is absolutely shocking. Your very ship is an attack on his character far greater than any person complaining he's a Gary Stu or not as good as Cloud.

Zack died trying to get back to Aerith. If you genuinely think, and not so secretly hope, he's been brought back just to be given a depressing send off as his love hooks up with his best friend, then fair enough. You're not fans of Zack though.

Semi-canon on this site, refers to one side having feelings for the other. On this site Cloti was always classed as Canon

Yeah it's a bit of a silly term really, something is either canon or not. To compound matters, Zerith is also listed as canon. So you have both sides of Clerith already in fully canon relationships anyway. I do think the site acts as a valuable resource, however.

 

[Sacky]

One trend I'm noticing lately which absolutely grinds my gears is CA supporters continually proclaiming themselves Zack fans, or gushing on how great Zack is.

I'm not sure there are strong enough terms on which I can object to this. On the hand waxing lyrical about how you're such big Zack fans but on the other wishing he gets cucked, dies (again) and spends an eternity alone and miserable is absolutely shocking. Your very ship is an attack on his character far greater than any person complaining he's a Gary Stu or not as good as Cloud.

Zack died trying to get back to Aerith. If you genuinely think, and not so secretly hope, he's been brought back just to be given a depressing send off as his love hooks up with his best friend who thinks he's him, then fair enough. You're not fans of Zack though, or dare I say, Final Fantasy VII.



Yeah it's a bit of a silly term really, something is either canon or not. To compound matters, Zerith is also listed as canon. So you have both sides of Clerith already in fully canon relationships anyway. I do think the site acts as a valuable resource, however.

In any case, the distinction here is obvious. CT is undeniable. It is a mutual relationship based on real and confirmed feelings that continues throughout the franchise. CA there is something, but it's open for interpretation and ends almost as quickly as it began.

I had a discussion with a group about this and it was interesting, How would you actually describe canon?
Is it if characters are in a relationship? Is it if characters both have feelings for one another? Is it if two characters share there mutual feelings for one another? Is it canon if both characters have feelings for one another but never get to share there feelings? We came to the conclusion that there should be sub-sections of Canon such as Endgame Canon, Relationship Canon, and Romantic Canon. It sounds confusing, but Semi-Canon really doenst work since its too broad, and the site lists, for example, 1 episode of Pokemon where a character who only appears once has a crush on Ash as Semi Canon.

Now, this really doesnt matter that much its just for fun XD

 

[LunarTarotGirl]

I had a discussion with a group about this and it was interesting, How would you actually describe canon?
Is it if characters are in a relationship? Is it if characters both have feelings for one another? Is it if two characters share there mutual feelings for one another? Is it canon if both characters have feelings for one another but never get to share there feelings? We came to the conclusion that there should be sub-sections of Canon such as Endgame Canon, Relationship Canon, and Romantic Canon. It sounds confusing, but Semi-Canon really doenst work since its too broad, and the site lists, for example, 1 episode of Pokemon where a character who only appears once has a crush on Ash as Semi Canon.

Now, this really doesnt matter that much its just for fun XD

Thanks for clearing that up. I had seen the word before but in different contexts every time. I guess CA would count as semi canon then.

And you know what, I agree with you. I think the problem with a lot of these types of ship debates is before you argue something is canon or not with hundreds of people all hundreds of people need to agree on what canon means and also what non-canon means. Everyone needs to be on the same page. I can see how that be harder to do with just canon because that can mean different things depending on who you ask. And with semi-canon it's definitely too broad.

I think these categories would be a good idea.

It might also help with the stigma of having non canon ships in Fandom.
Because honestly people wouldn't be fighting so hard to prove canon if there wasn't so much trashing and shaming of non canon ships in their community.
Fandom sometimes does act like these debates are a "Who is superior" competition. So that makes it more likely arguments will not be fair, nor will they be willing to concede on truths bc they don't want the dreaded shameful "not canon" title.
They might however be more open to the semi canon or romantic but not endgame canon title.

Which is a shame because a lot of my favorite ships aren't canon at all but whatever.

Because there are so many situations being less broad also gives a better idea of what these words entail and debating to more focus and be less all over the place. (Less toxic too maybe. I'm an optimist)

 

[Sacky]

Thanks for clearing that up. I had seen the word before but in different contexts every time. I guess CA would count as semi canon then.

And you know what, I agree with you. I think the problem with a lot of these types of ship debates is before you argue something is canon or not with hundreds of people all hundreds of people need to agree on what canon means and also what non-canon means. Everyone needs to be on the same page. I can see how that be harder to do with just canon because that can mean different things depending on who you ask. And with semi-canon it's definitely too broad.

I think these categories would be a good idea.

It might also help with the stigma of having non canon ships in Fandom.
Because honestly people wouldn't be fighting so hard to prove canon if there wasn't so much trashing and shaming of non canon ships in their community.
Fandom sometimes does act like these debates are a "Who is superior" competition. So that makes it more likely arguments will not be fair, nor will they be willing to concede on truths bc they don't want the dreaded shameful "not canon" title.
They might however be more open to the semi canon or romantic but not endgame canon title.

Which is a shame because a lot of my favorite ships aren't canon at all but whatever.

Because there are so many situations being less broad also gives a better idea of what these words entail and debating to more focus and be less all over the place. (Less toxic too maybe. I'm an optimist)

I find it so hard to describe what kind of Canon CA is. Since to me, its Spiritual more than friendship, not lovers or relationships Its very idk Unique xd?. Aerith has feelings clearly, though they are very complicated, and she herself does not know what kind of feelings. Clouds seem up to interpretation a lot of the time and can be seen both ways. With Tifa, it is very much Endgame Canon and Romantic. The problem with CA is that it is never confirmed if Cloud had romantic feelings for Aerith before she died. Rebirth has shown he only kissed Tifa, which does destroy a take he only got with Tifa once Aerith was dead. But there is also the whole Zack thing to put a wrench in it as well. If Cloud knows that Zack in Clouds own words, was head over heels for Aerith, and he has also come to the conclusion that Aerith still has feelings for Zack, it just ends up being really confusing?

 

[Maidenofwar]

Welcome to here by the way LunarTarotGirl, I enjoy your posts. It's nice to have other here. At one point this year it was really jumping with representatives of three ships around. It had been quiet with same posters for so long xD I'm glad there other that like me are more open and don't need to score all the points or win all the things, but yeah I do like my semi canon/official personally xD

 

[LunarTarotGirl]

Welcome to here by the way LunarTarotGirl, I enjoy your posts. It's nice to have other here. At one point this year it was really jumping with representatives of three ships around. It had been quiet with same posters for so long xD I'm glad there other that like me are more open and don't need to score all the points or win all the things, but yeah I do like my semi canon/official personally xD

Hi. I'm Sakura Happy to be here and meet you.
I used to be on the Forgotten City forums as KageSakura decade and change back and I think I remember you and some others there but I usually just lurk so I think this is our first time interacting. I enjoy reading your posts too. ^^ And yeah I really just appreciate what we got. No need to try to win, just to find joy.

I guess I rep multiple ships lol since I'm a multishipper. I like CT and ZA too. I have nothing against any ship really. But my OTPs are actually CA and Aeriseph (which is not even a little bit canon but hey the heart wants what it wants lol)

 

[Graymouse]

Actually there was a member that shipped Areith with Sephiroth on the forums about 4 years ago. I believe the members name was Cat on Mars. Maybe an old head could remember better than I.

Not sure what happened to them either, i thought that the Rebirth would bring 'em back.

 

[AncientGrimoire]

Having tried my hand at chapter select for the GS dates, I feel it's even more obvious the devs intended for the player to see them all. Cloud relates to the characters on their own level, each reflective of their particular relationship with him and there's plenty of unique character development and even story development in each.

More importantly, because each character has a different relationship with Cloud, none of them step on each other's toes. This solves the issue mentioned earlier of trying to give the girls equal time without detracting from the narrative. One can view Aerith's date as fully platonic - insomuch as Cloud and Aerith are both very confused about their feelings - and that doesn't detract from Tifa's date at all.

In fact, Clotis should embrace the CA scenes as they serve only to highlight just how much more Cloud loves Tifa by virtue of how much further he's willing to go with her. It's the contrast that enhances this, and without the CA dates - GS included - we could perhaps surmise he's willing to be so forward with anyone rather than just with the girl he holds so dearly in his heart.

Similarly, Aeriths feelings for Cloud should not be shunned by my fellow Zeriths. They exist on their own and I genuinely think they are real and grounded, but they also conclusively demonstrate that Aerith is not over Zack at all, that he's still irreplaceable to her, that Advent Children Complete can have the happier ending for all that is so richly deserved.

I’m willing to bet good money on either the devs, or the Ultimania’s, outright confirming that much like Remake’s resolutions, all the Gold Saucer dates canonically took place.

Far too many essential character moments happen in these dates, for Cloud himself in relation to the other characters, but each individual character themself, for them to just be “fan service” or optional goodies to unlock that doesn’t have any tangential bearing on the story and characters going forward.

It’s interesting and unsurprising how you don’t see many or any Cloti’s trying to completely invalidate Aerith’s dates, their romantic implications, nor try to claim her dates are just fan service or “optional” non-canon fluff.

Some Clerith’s regarding Tifa’s dates on the other hand…

 

[GamerSkull]

One trend I'm noticing lately which absolutely grinds my gears is CA supporters continually proclaiming themselves Zack fans, or gushing on how great Zack is.

I'm not sure there are strong enough terms on which I can object to this. On the hand waxing lyrical about how you're such big Zack fans but on the other wishing he gets cucked, dies (again) and spends an eternity alone and miserable is absolutely shocking. Your very ship is an attack on his character far greater than any person complaining he's a Gary Stu or not as good as Cloud.

Zack died trying to get back to Aerith. If you genuinely think, and not so secretly hope, he's been brought back just to be given a depressing send off as his love hooks up with his best friend, then fair enough. You're not fans of Zack though.



Yeah it's a bit of a silly term really, something is either canon or not. To compound matters, Zerith is also listed as canon. So you have both sides of Clerith already in fully canon relationships anyway. I do think the site acts as a valuable resource, however.

I’m not sure where this idea that Zack is a Gary Stu comes from. That he has lots of fans? Does that make Cloud a Gary Stu then?

As for other attributes of a Gary Stu… well, not everyone in the narrative likes him. Genesis, the main villain, gives no fucks about him until after Nibelheim and that’s towards the end of the game. Not to mention, his popularity with his peers is supposed to contrast Cloud’s insecurities. This is done on purpose.

As for his competency making him a Gary Stu… , he fails several times in the story. He is unable to save Angeal, he is unable to stop Sephiroth, he is too wounded to stop Hojo from using him and Cloud as test subjects, he has trouble getting back to Midgar and he is killed mere miles away from what would have been the finish line.

As far as Cleriths who are fans of Zack, I think it’s just a shield. Claiming they like Zack makes it so that they can’t be accused of bias. (Not all, obviously)

 

[AncientGrimoire]

I’ve found nearly every time someone is quick to label a character a Gary Stu or a Mary Sue it’s inevitably not the case and it’s just a lazy way for them to invalidate a character they simply don’t like and wish didn’t exist in the story shrugs

 

[shady]

Oh did you all not hear? The reason Cloud and Aerith fans are all of a sudden liking Zack is because they believe Rebirth shows that Zack is extremely supportive of Cloud and Aerith being together

Spoiler

They believe in the scene when Marlene says Aerith likes Cloud that Zack basically says yeah that’s great I love the thought of that, and probably when Zack tells Cloud to “save her”

Now as we know media literacy isn’t the strong point of intense shippers on bother sides of the aisle i’ll spell it out here, after Marlene says Aerith likes Cloud we cut to a shot of Zacks lips close up where he clearly trembles and struggles with the idea of these 2 liking each other, however rather than upset Marlene, and because Zack isn’t a dick, he just gives a oh really kinda answer, though you can hear in his voice he’s upset. Zack barely has any idea whats going on, only that Cloud can somehow save Aerith, of course Zack would love to do the saving but he puts his love for Aerith above all including jealousy and him being upset. However there is a brief glimpse of it when he first see’s Cloud and he says “I hear you’ve been busy” or depending in what language its in he infers he wants to talk to Cloud or that he even hates him a little (jokingly) but again sets it aside because he knows whats more important to him is Aerith regardless.

Somehow this has spiralled into both Marlene and Zack being huge Cloud and Aerith shippers despite the fact the one word is from a 4 year old kid who probably barely grasped what she was actually saying and Zack who clearly shows he’s upset, so…

 

[Empyrea]

I hope the CAs making the claim that Zack is a Gary Stu and those that say he's now a Clerith shipper are different people. Usually, the Gary Stu gets all the gals, especially the main love interest, and has everyone singing their praises, either made up or exaggerated.

 

[Rose Alive]

Nobody denies that Cloud had romantic feelings for Aerith.

Respectfully, I'm in the category that he doesn't. Sorry I know this was on the page before, but it's been a busy weekend and I just now have time to post.

Now before Rebirth, I most likely would have leaned toward yes Cloud did. It was always a burning question of mine, and one that I didn't think we'd ever get the answer to. But Rebirth has shown us that Cloud is very aware of how others are feeling, including in the romantic sense. There are multiple opportunities for Cloud to reciprocate Aerith's advances, but he never does. The big chances were the GS date and the dream date. When Aerith says there's liking and then there's  liking, he doesn't say or do anything equivalent to the "not one bit line" he gives Tifa. He just tells her she's acting strange/weird.

Now as I've said before, Aerith is a bit trickier when it comes to her feelings. But the fact that she's been trying to find the answer through all these moments with Cloud tells me that most likely, she doesn't have romantic feelings for him even though she tried. I'm reminded of what the oracle said in the matrix: "Nobody can tell you you're in love---you just know it." It's not something you have to jump through multiple hoops to figure out, imo.

Now I'm not discounting the CA relationship. It's very beautiful, and as people have already said, something that transcends friendship. Spiritual-like. Some of their interactions have been my favorite in Rebirth.

 

[GamerSkull]

Oh did you all not hear? The reason Cloud and Aerith fans are all of a sudden liking Zack is because they believe Rebirth shows that Zack is extremely supportive of Cloud and Aerith being together

Spoiler

They believe in the scene when Marlene says Aerith likes Cloud that Zack basically says yeah that’s great I love the thought of that, and probably when Zack tells Cloud to “save her”

Now as we know media literacy isn’t the strong point of intense shippers on bother sides of the aisle i’ll spell it out here, after Marlene says Aerith likes Cloud we cut to a shot of Zacks lips close up where he clearly trembles and struggles with the idea of these 2 liking each other, however rather than upset Marlene, and because Zack isn’t a dick, he just gives a oh really kinda answer, though you can hear in his voice he’s upset. Zack barely has any idea whats going on, only that Cloud can somehow save Aerith, of course Zack would love to do the saving but he puts his love for Aerith above all including jealousy and him being upset. However there is a brief glimpse of it when he first see’s Cloud and he says “I hear you’ve been busy” or depending in what language its in he infers he wants to talk to Cloud or that he even hates him a little (jokingly) but again sets it aside because he knows whats more important to him is Aerith regardless.

Somehow this has spiralled into both Marlene and Zack being huge Cloud and Aerith shippers despite the fact the one word is from a 4 year old kid who probably barely grasped what she was actually saying and Zack who clearly shows he’s upset, so…

Yeah, no. Zack is visibly upset at the idea of Aerith liking Cloud. He doesn’t support them.

Zack decides to still go ahead to save Cloud for two reasons. Cloud is still his friend and his desire to save Aerith supersedes his desire to be with her. If saving her means he can’t be with her, so be it. If anything, it actually shows just how much Zack loves Aerith.

Because that’s just the kind of guy Zack is.

 

[Sacky]

I’m willing to bet good money on either the devs, or the Ultimania’s, outright confirming that much like Remake’s resolutions, all the Gold Saucer dates canonically took place.

Far too many essential character moments happen in these dates, for Cloud himself in relation to the other characters, but each individual character themself, for them to just be “fan service” or optional goodies to unlock that doesn’t have any tangential bearing on the story and characters going forward.

It’s interesting and unsurprising how you don’t see many or any Cloti’s trying to completely invalidate Aerith’s dates, their romantic implications, nor try to claim her dates are just fan service or “optional” non-canon fluff.

Some Clerith’s regarding Tifa’s dates on the other hand…

I see all dates as canon since they do not change the story, not even the kiss. All of them include references to or themes from the main parts of the story. Unless an Ultimania says otherwise, i dont believe the developers would make any of those scenes the canon choice. when they clearly put a lot of effort into each one and made sure they match with the story. While also encouraging people to watch them all afterwards. People can argue that the dynamic would change from a kiss between Tifa and Cloud, yet the story doesn't allow this to even become a possibility. Since afterwards, the game heads straight into conflict and then after that Cloud becoming corrupted by Sephiroth. Even with this, you can still debate that Tifa hugging cloud from the back is very couple like behaviour that would progress from them kissing earlier.

 

[AncientGrimoire]

“Because you weren’t there”

Marlene also says this. Convenient how this is outright ignored.


She establishes that Aerith was able to develop feelings for Cloud because Zack himself wasn’t there with her. Cloud, y’know, the guy who for the past two games has been constantly reminding Aerith of Zack, which is was what formed the basis for her interest and attraction?

It would be different if Aerith had feelings for a guy who was the opposite or a completely different person to Zack, but instead she falls for someone who is constantly reminding her of him.

It’s like the closest thing to outright confirming she definitely still has feelings for Zack. And that if Zack was there, then her feelings for Cloud wouldn’t matter. Because Zack is still the man that she loves and hasn’t been unable to move on from, even after five years of being apart.

But yeah go off on Zack being a Clerith shipper smdh

 

[Sacky]

“Because you weren’t there”

Marlene also says this. Convenient how this is outright ignored.


She establishes that Aerith was able to develop feelings for Cloud because Zack himself wasn’t there with her. Cloud, y’know, the guy who for the past two games has been constantly reminding Aerith of Zack, which is was what formed the basis for her interest and attraction?

It would be different if Aerith had feelings for a guy who was the opposite or a completely different person to Zack, but instead she falls for someone who is constantly reminding her of him.

It’s like the closest thing to outright confirming she definitely still has feelings for Zack. And that if Zack was there, then her feelings for Cloud wouldn’t matter. Because Zack is still the man that she loves and hasn’t been unable to move on from, even after five years of being apart.

But yeah go off on Zack being a Clerith shipper smdh

A lot of arguments made just leave out the context of the full scene

 

[AncientGrimoire]

A lot of arguments made just leave out the context of the full scene

It’s the MO of their cult.

 

[GamerSkull]

It could just also be the way Marlene says it. I’m not sure if it’s different in Japanese.

But her tone for “Because you weren’t here” sounds more like a “You don’t know because you weren’t here” instead of a “It happened BECAUSE you weren’t here.”

If that makes sense.

 

[LunarTarotGirl]

Hmm. Cloud knows Aerith has feelings for Zack. And Cloud has feelings for Tifa and she for him. Aerith knows this too. So I think both of them, Cloud or Aerith no matter what feelings they have for eachother wouldn't act on them in this situation either way. And I think we see that in Aerith's date. They could have kissed sure, but don't. They're both confused but I think even if he had feelings for her he still wouldn't. And I think he would still change the subject or say she's not acting like herself in her dream date regardless. Especially if he remembered Zack.

That's not the type of people they are. They're not going to be selfish and hurt other people in order to be together. And I could just be seeing things but I think that was what they were trying to show with the trip and don't kiss.

Also just Cloud has feelings for Tifa, no matter what those don't go away. I think in no version of this dream date even with feelings for Aerith would he respond any differently.

Which is why I think even if they had shown on screen clear mutual feelings instead of confusion on their parts they would still not end together sadly. Not in this story. Their story does seem to be set up as doomed from the start, tragic. And maybe that's the appeal idk. But the romance of it feels very wrong place wrong time. The cheesey tagline "A love that can never be" comes to mind.

But in the end they still have an important connection and friendship and cherish eachother regardless.

It's beautiful to me in a strange way.

 

[GamerSkull]

Well, I gotta say I disagree with you on Aerith somewhat. This is in no way meant to be an attack on her character, but she does (several times, in fact) act on her “interest” in Cloud despite having some awareness of Tifa’s feelings.

She does this in the OG as well. Although I am so glad they don’t have that compatibility fortune from Cait Sith anymore. I think the writers are definitely aware at this point that having it with Tifa present comes across as very mean-spirited by Aerith, even if it’s unintentional.

 

[LunarTarotGirl]

Well, I gotta say I disagree with you on Aerith somewhat. This is in no way meant to be an attack on her character, but she does (several times, in fact) act on her “interest” in Cloud despite having some awareness of Tifa’s feelings.

She does this in the OG as well. Although I am so glad they don’t have that compatibility fortune from Cait Sith anymore

Yeah to the extent of her bubbly personality she is clingy and flirty. Very guigui and pulls him around. But by act on her feelings here I mean make an actual move and kiss him.
And she's gonna die so she lets him know her feelings to avoid regrets and figure things out before the end.

I never in any version expected her to kiss him. And I never would expect a kiss between them nor an actual relationship to form because of the way the story is set up.

 

[GamerSkull]

Yeah to the extent of her bubbly personality she is clingy and flirty. Very guigui and pulls him around. But by act on her feelings here I mean make an actual move and kiss him.
And she's gonna die so she lets him know her feelings to avoid regrets and figure things out before the end.

I never in any version expected her to kiss him. And I never would expect a kiss between them nor an actual relationship to form because of the way the story is set up.

I dunno. If I knew my friend was interested in a girl, I wouldn’t… I wouldn’t flirt with her in front of him, especially if I was unsure of my feelings for her as well.

Aerith literally grabs his arm and says they were on a date at the beginning in front of Tifa.

By the time they leave Midgar, Aerith should definitely have an idea of Tifa’s feelings. She correctly surmises that Tifa is a special person to Cloud during their rescue of children in Sector 5.

And in the OG, Cloud can outright tell her that Tifa is his girlfriend… and she’ll still flirt openly.

And it’s incorrect to say Aerith is flirty by nature. She never acts this way with anybody except Cloud. Ever.

 

[JaeKony]

“Because you weren’t there”

Marlene also says this. Convenient how this is outright ignored.


She establishes that Aerith was able to develop feelings for Cloud because Zack himself wasn’t there with her. Cloud, y’know, the guy who for the past two games has been constantly reminding Aerith of Zack, which is was what formed the basis for her interest and attraction?

It would be different if Aerith had feelings for a guy who was the opposite or a completely different person to Zack, but instead she falls for someone who is constantly reminding her of him.

It’s like the closest thing to outright confirming she definitely still has feelings for Zack. And that if Zack was there, then her feelings for Cloud wouldn’t matter. Because Zack is still the man that she loves and hasn’t been unable to move on from, even after five years of being apart.

But yeah go off on Zack being a Clerith shipper smdh

To be fair, in JP, Marlene says: “hyu~ hyu~” instead of “Cause you weren’t there” which is a japanese onomatopoeia for when you’re teasing two people for acting lovey-dovey.

I still agree with what you wrote though. Nothing in Rebirth, as far as I’ve seen, concludes that Zack supports C/A.