GamerSkull
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To be fair, the compilation has always pointed towards CT/ZA so I doubt that will change.
Although I suppose anything is possible.
Although I suppose anything is possible.
SPOILERS LTD Remake — It's like New Coke except ... no, it's exactly like New Coke
- Thread starter The Twilight Mexican
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It is too late for the devs to remove Tifa’s kissing scene right now, and it will be well known among the players whether they like it or not when pt3 comes. It will be hard to have any more romantic development between CA. And the devs might have to be very cautious on how they put their interaction from now on. Isn’t it one of the general consensus that kissing one girl but love the other one is a bad thing? I think devs won’t allow one of their most beloved protagonists do this.
Empyrea
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I watched one Spanish soap that I can't recall the title of, and I think I'm fine with that being my only one xD In anime's case, some does romance really well while some don't. I've seen a good mix and some in-betweens.
That said, I agree that experience does affect how one interprets things. I've also been cheated on before, and ever since, harems (especially the badly done ones) bothered me whereas I just found them cliched beforehand.
Still, even then, while the whole deal with Aerith does bother me, I also feel for her because...I don't see a scenario where she wouldn't try to act on her feelings, either. Honestly, if it was possible, I would love to know what's running in her head the entire time. Her confusion is probably more than what she's shown on-screen.
To add, though, I do like her friendship with Tifa in both Remake and Rebirth, even with the Cloud deal. It's nice to see them bonding like they did. They even made me miss my old bestie.
LunarTarotGirl
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Honestly I'm not sure.
Because when I played Remake I was so sure they weren't going to do anything with CA except talk about friendship and how important she was. Yet this game they really pushed her feelings for Cloud to the forefront. I was surprised. We got a lot of CA interactions that sorry but to me they can look romantic if I squint so. I'm wondering if they're just going to leave it at that or like you said add something more in P3.
I think it would be difficult because I expect the next game to be very heavy CT. The set up is there for CT at least with the kiss and almost kiss and the fact disk 3 would be Tifa centric and we get the HW scene. And I think they're definitely going to have Zack and Aerith reunite at some point. I don't think they have Zack there because he is going to watch CA endgame happen (I'm sorry fellow CAs but I really don't think they would do that.) Also Zack is shown to still obviously have feelings for Aerith and was upset at the idea of her liking Cloud even if he took it in stride. So I expect ZA next game too.
But...
But even though I think they didn't cement CA here and CT and ZA are set to sail... Who knows.
They basically gave them a heartfelt goodbye but besides nakama which is locked behind low affection I never got the impression Cloud actually fully understood what Aerith felt for him. I have always been under the impression Cloud was oblivious and took Aerith for granted, not understanding what exactly was their bond till Advent Children. They might just leave CA as a beautiful friendship but open the door enough to read as romantic if ppl want and self contained to its own little arc with a maybe it could have been but it's not, while cementing ZA and CT as endgame.
But my guess is a very CT and ZA ending. Which I don't mind personally. It just frustrates me a bit that since CA is very undefined and spiritual we really don't get much closure as I would have liked besides Cloud sees her as a friend but in high affection is happy to see her again which doesn't tell us much either way and she isn't sure of her own feelings. It's a little weird if they leave that there and just never address it again.
Also are we just never going to address her resolution in Remake? Where would she get the impression Cloud would think he fell in love with her? When exactly did she realize it's not real? Why was her future self dream visiting him at that point if this is their goodbye? They have to refer to it eventually too. Or at least they should.
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Ryeleigh
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To be honest, I never personally liked that moment in her resolution. It felt bizarrely out of place and it didn't help that she was talking to herself, Cloud and the audience. So the whole thing just felt off.
LunarTarotGirl
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Yeah, my issue with it is mostly if she's talking to herself ok. Kinda makes sense given the situation. But... This is her future self who should know her feelings by now why talk to herself here? And if these devs want to put the point across that Cloud has romantic feelings for Tifa and not Aerith. This is just a very weird way to do it.
Because what I the CA am seeing is a very romantic looking scene with sparkles and him saying in the most anime way possible he's coming for her. And can you blame us? It is very baity.
I figured ok so he thinks he fell for her but it's a confusing situation because he is acting out a persona with some false memories and she sees Zack in him. A meta narrative illusion. Sure.
But then later I'm told: No he only sees her as a friend. He never even thought he fell in love with her.
Ok. Then why have this scene? Why not just stay straight out Aerith thought she was in love but there is a difference between like and like. Even if it's to the player it baffles me why tell it to Cloud the character at that point. And why include him and imply he thought he fell in love. I still can't figure it out.
And I hope they at least clear it up somewhere.
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If I could share my takes on your questions,
1. “Are we just never going to address her resolution in Remake?” - I think we do get closure for Aerith’s resolution in the church date for Rebirth. Aerith tells Cloud, “At least I know now, where you and I stand I mean.” Depending on affinity, Players can either interpret this scene as Aerith accepting that Cloud sees her as a friend or Aerith is happy that he, at the very least, also wanted to spend more time with her.
2. “Where would she get the impression Cloud would think he fell in love with her?” - I don’t think this line is necessarily referring to a specific moment when/if Cloud fell in love with Aerith but I think it’s more of a warning for Cloud to not to get too attached because she wants to soften the blow when she dies (since Aerith in the Aerith resolution is theorized to be a version of herself aware that she dies). It’s also why I think during their church goodbye she tells him, ”Whatever happens, it’s not your fault.”
3. “When exactly did she realize it's not real?” - Similarily to #2, I don’t think this line is necessarily referring to a specific moment when/if Aerith realizes that Cloud’s attraction to her isn’t real. Rather, I think it’s more of Aerith hinting towards Cloud about his false memories and SOLDIER persona. In Rebirth, she says something similar during their GS Date about wanting to ”meet the real him” to his obvious confusion.
4. “Why was her future self dream visiting him at that point if this is their goodbye?“ - The obvious answer is that the devs really loved delving into Aerith’s prophetic side that was aware of her fate in Remake XD however, was it ever explicitly confirmed that the future Aerith in her Resolution was Advent Children Aerith? If not, the Remake Chapter 14 Aerith seems waaaaay more similar to Rebirth Chapter 14 Aerith. This would also line up better since the way Aerith talks about the future, Cloud, and their relationship in these sections of the game are very very similar.
I might change my mind if more evidence is brought up, but currently, I’m getting the sense that the Church Date in Rebirth IS THE CONCLUSION to Aerith’s Resolution in Remake. Just food for thought.
2. “Where would she get the impression Cloud would think he fell in love with her?” - I don’t think this line is necessarily referring to a specific moment when/if Cloud fell in love with Aerith but I think it’s more of a warning for Cloud to not to get too attached because she wants to soften the blow when she dies (since Aerith in the Aerith resolution is theorized to be a version of herself aware that she dies). It’s also why I think during their church goodbye she tells him, ”Whatever happens, it’s not your fault.”
3. “When exactly did she realize it's not real?” - Similarily to #2, I don’t think this line is necessarily referring to a specific moment when/if Aerith realizes that Cloud’s attraction to her isn’t real. Rather, I think it’s more of Aerith hinting towards Cloud about his false memories and SOLDIER persona. In Rebirth, she says something similar during their GS Date about wanting to ”meet the real him” to his obvious confusion.
4. “Why was her future self dream visiting him at that point if this is their goodbye?“ - The obvious answer is that the devs really loved delving into Aerith’s prophetic side that was aware of her fate in Remake XD however, was it ever explicitly confirmed that the future Aerith in her Resolution was Advent Children Aerith? If not, the Remake Chapter 14 Aerith seems waaaaay more similar to Rebirth Chapter 14 Aerith. This would also line up better since the way Aerith talks about the future, Cloud, and their relationship in these sections of the game are very very similar.
I might change my mind if more evidence is brought up, but currently, I’m getting the sense that the Church Date in Rebirth IS THE CONCLUSION to Aerith’s Resolution in Remake. Just food for thought.
LunarTarotGirl
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Thanks that kinda helps.
But while I kind of see everything you said is very logical. it's still frustrating.
Because I want a more clear cut no they're just friends if they're just friends. But then you got Ch 14 Aerith waxing poetic like this. So at the same time as a CA I'm supposed to believe ok so he doesn't feel romantic feelings for Aerith got it. He loves Tifa got it.
But then why did the devs use those words? She could have said don't get to attached? Why didn't they.
I think the issue I have is I can 100% accept Cloud and Aerith is a platonic bond. I've analyzed that scene and I do get what they were going for I think from a narrative standpoint I like the scene. But it does honestly feel like I'm being baited. Because that's the least platonic way to talk to someone and they keep doing stuff like this in Rebirth.
Giving us stuff that does look romantic the red dress scene, letting us interwine fingers and stuff using words like dont fall in love with me in a scene full of sparkles while at the same time going no silly CA, you got it wrong they're just friends!
I don't know what to make of that.
shady
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Agree with the resolution scene it was very odd. Because as you say even in the church scene she doesn't even seem to think she loves Cloud in that way? I mean she uses the word "like" for starters which is wildly different to "love" in English at least, maybe in the Japanese version she uses love but if that is the case I don't see why they wouldn't use love in English. Because you can say there is a difference between love and being in love, but no she says she likes but there is different forms of like. At that point maybe Cloud loves her? But if he does he doesn't voice or act on it in any way, I could believe he does if he acts on things with Aerith like he acted on them with Tifa in the game but he doesn't. It's all very strange and I hope for everybody we do get some sort of closure on it in Part 3.
I too like you would find it extremely strange for them to bring Zack back, show his complete devotion to Aerith in every scene he is in (multiple times during the S5 date weirdly enough) only for them to basically give Zack the shaft in Part 3, it would certainly be an... interesting choice by the developers, one they didn't need to make. Feels more like they were trying to get you to feel for Zack before something happens in Part 3 with that personally.
My personal wish -- as an unashamed Cloti but not a hater of Clerith -- is that we get SOME sort of resolution to this in P3 because i'm sick of all camps arguing and having to dig deep down for the latest translation of a single word just for a crumb of confirmation. I am in the camp of there being something between Cloud and Aerith rather than shouting to the high heavens there's absolutely nothing, because feelings and emotions -- particularly when you are of a younger age -- are tumultuous and confusing, complex and Cloud and Aerith clearly share some kind of bond, whether anyone wants to interpret it as fully romantic, semi romantic, or not romantic at all us up to anyones interpretation. What we can say for sure is Cloud loves Aerith as a friend minimum beyond that of course is whatever anyone wants to think they are.
Anyway my wish for Part 3 is for them to be able to actually talk about it alone after having all the experience they have had (granted who knows how this may happen given everything) and for them to acknowledge there was something there, and that maybe in another lifetime they could have had something special, but it's not another lifetime, and not only what happened with Aerith herself happened but also Zack and Tifa exist. That they acknowledge that it's okay, because regardless of it not ending up as anything really romantic or anything, what they have is still special and doesn't invalidate their feelings for Zack and Tifa and in the end they both ended up with who they wanted to be with/who they were meant to be with. None of this oh I'm only with this person because this happened or, no, just a nice clean happy conclusion that acknowledges there was something there between Cloud and Aerith but that circumstances and their feelings for other people meant that nothing came of it in that way, this also doesn't invalidate Cloud and Aerith's connection.
I understand that probably won't happen and I understand it's not something Cloud and Aerith fans would want either, but as a Cloud and Tifa believer I think it's a nice way to round off the LTD for good, personally.
shady
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Just to reply a second time cause I like your posts. I do feel like they bait both sides heavily in the sense of keeping the "LTD" going, because for both sides there's always a feeling of hope because of something the developers have done. Now some people might argue as a shipper you see everything with shipping goggles on, and so everything is either romantic or not, there is no inbetween. Cody himself alluded to the fact that not everything with characters needs to be sexualised, characters can have deep meaningful bonds with characters and it not be romantic.
But what do the devs honestly expect when they don't spell it out clear as day. Yeah there's a kiss which is obviously a pretty big thing, but did they honestly expect nobody to look at other scenes with Cloud and Aerith (like the hand holding or confessions you've mentioned) and not at least think hmm... okay so there is still something here for CA despite the kiss.
There's no way they don't know what they are doing and I do find it unfair for all the people involved who are interested in seeing a good old story being told without LTD stuff clogging it all up. Then again maybe the devs are the complete opposite mindset and aren't even thinking of LTD stuff at all and are seeing it from a completely different perspective than we all are
It’s frustratingly (for some) open to interpretation. And I say “for some” because I know some fans do thrive off the ambiguity of scenes pertaining to a ship even though I personally don’t like the feeling of being baited or never getting explicit confirmation of something, I was so relieved when
Cloud and Tifa got a kiss in Rebirth.
Ryeleigh
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Personally, I didn't see Cloud and Aerith's interactions as romantic. Because, as I said before, in my opinion there was only one moment in Remake where he seemed to be aware that Aerith even is a girl, lol. (The optional "best" dress scene. I liked her other dresses better, okay!) But I can definitely understand why others would find them romantic, especially if they're also OG fans, and the game does give players choices towards that. And in a way, it's nice for CA fans since it doesn't really detract from anything, I think.
But at the same time, I feel that the game is doing a lot of bait-and-switch with CA. Like, it gives the appearance of - let's say romantic situations/framing - and at the same time it's just... not? Not really?
But who knows, maybe they'll still address it in some way in P3? Though, I'm still withering away waiting for Zerith reunion. sighs (And I really wanted to see Aerith's bonds with other Not-Cloud characters but I'm not that far in Rebirth yet, lol.)
LunarTarotGirl
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Honestly even as a CA I am happy for CT fans getting the kiss. Congratulations! It's a beautiful scene and ya have every right to enjoy it.
I just hoped they'd stop baiting CA fans by this point if the point was to show a platonic bond. But maybe the devs don't even realize that's what they're doing. I always try to give them the benefit of the doubt.
Hix
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It's equally possible both are confused about their feelings for each other to an immense degree. It's all happened so fast, after all, how could they properly establish their feelings in that time when they've got so much else to do, and, in any case, Cloud is increasingly mentally unstable?
Just two weeks prior her lost love seemingly crashes back into Aerith's life. And ditto, just two weeks prior a man who developed a hero/SOLDIER complex (to impress Tifa, which he forgot) got given an opportunity to be a bodyguard for a flower girl and live that fantasy out. I think after the many twists and turns, they were given a resolution that, no, it's not the right fit because it's not the right person.
In the end, I just have to reiterate that the goal posts for romantic behaviour by Cloud have moved by virtue of the kiss. One can no longer suggest that "Cloud can't express love in an overt way" to explain why every CA scene seems to be able to be explained platonically. Cloud can be passionate, if it's with the right girl. That's a game changer.
Rose Alive
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There's been definite bait. Look at the song trailer. They almost got me until I took a step back and was like wait, are they really going to go this route after bringing Zack back? Probably not. And then the leaks happened, and it was Tifa that got the kiss.
While I'm happy I got my answer about Cloud's feelings, at the same time, the writers are making certain things confusing. They've chosen to not be ambiguous, so why the bait of some scenes? I can see why her red dress scene could be seen as romantic, or even the beach scene even though I personally didn't. The only things I can come up with are:
Trying to give CA shippers some scenes that can be painted in a romantic light.
Fueling discussions to make sure interest isn't lost.
They're trying to slam home the "love that could never be".
Some of the writers may like the CA romantic dynamic, or there's too many cooks in the kitchen.
I honestly thought they were going to go the ambiguous route with CA. But once they decided not to, why not just commit to that? Forget fueling the LTD, it just raises eyebrows in terms of the writing.
Or maybe all these scenes were trying to convey Aerith working out her feelings for Cloud.
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LunarTarotGirl
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She says 好きにならないで。Doesn't that still mean "Don't fall in love with me." As we would say in English? I always thought suki 好き is still used as love in many cases. Like falling for someone. While Ai 愛 is more serious and deep like love between family or commited lovers or a married couple?
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Ryushikaze
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It might help to adopt language that refers to awareness and intentionality rather than a broad strokes. For example, take Uresei Yatsura (That's the one with Lum if you weren't aware). In the very earliest chapters Ataru x Shinobu was actually meant to be endgame, but Ataru had unreturned affection for literally every woman. That would make Ataru x EVERY woman semi-canon by the site's rubric, and Ataru x Shinobu would also be full canon despite Ataru x Lum being the endgame and Shinobu getting a different boyfriend.
Or consider Ranma 1/2 (I have other references than Rumiko Takahashi but she wrote so many hilarious love polyhedrals it's so useful) where due to shenanigans a whole host of characters have feelings for Ranma, Akane, or Ranma and Akane.
To simplify that you could have a fairly simple system that states, to use U-Y as an example
Ataru- Lum
Loves -Loves
Aware- Aware
Meaning they both love each other and each is aware the other does.
And for stuff that would be considered semi-canon you could use
Ataru-Sakura
Loves- Tolerates
Aware-Aware
Meaning that Ataru loves Sakura, Sakura is aware of this and barely tolerates Ataru's existence most of the time.
This would require some massaging for more out there scenarios like miraculous ladybug with the two person love square., though.
If it does I shall scream vindication to the very heavens.
Ooh, that's a pairing people ship and definitely really shouldn't...
Reminder that "love that could never be" was only US marketing material.
And I think they've consistently shown in Rebirth that Cloud and Aerith just wouldn't work out. Aerith is trying her damndest to get Cloud's attention, not to steal him away, but just to have a little fun before she goes and at every corner he shuts her down. I don't even think he realizes she's trying, he's not even noticing that she's trying to flirt because he's laser focused elsewhere.
shady
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I think it actually translates best to "like" rather than "love" but that it's definitely used more in a romantic way, but then as Aerith herself says there are many forms of suki/like. If she used Ai like you said, even though that can also mean love in different forms it's definitely more concrete than suki
(Someone may correct me on this)
Ryushikaze
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suki is like, but it's definitely used for romantic love, but it's also the most basic form of it? I suspect her line about "like doesn't mean like" in the liminal midgar is phrased something akin to "suki isn't daisuki" in Japanese. I haven't gotten there yet so I can't check myself.
LunarTarotGirl
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I think this makes sense. There was some wish fulfillment in both cases with Aerith being reminded of Zack and with Cloud wishing to be a hero and being able to act as her bodyguard probably made him feel good. And it makes sense for their to be lots of confusion in terms of feelings. Though I myself have never thought Cloud couldn't express love in an overt way even in this point of the game. Maybe others thought so but I never really jived with that idea personally. "Not real" to me seemed to be more about his facade than anything.
Agreed with all you said. I think in a way the LTD is just giving things to fans to be happy about. Maybe their perspective is different. I know in many anime I have seen there is a canon route with a canon love interest, but then the OVAS will hint at stuff with other characters. It's not to undermine the story but to give fans something if they like the other characters. And there is nothing really wrong with it per say.
But I do think it is a bit baity. Especially when you can see people say Cloud's not interested in Aerith at all. Like ok but the scenes they're showing me with sunsets and sparkles and stuff are still giving me mixed signals here. In those anime I mentioned we don't really have the guy acting disinterested in the other girls. So it's not that confusing when you have scenes that could be a what if. But here it looks like theyre trying to have Cloud see Aerith as a friend and oblivious to her feelings while still having their cake and throwing in romantic looking moments to keep CA's happy and yeah idk. Sometimes I wonder if I'm just seeing things but it could just be them trying to give everyone content.
As for your other post she uses suki in both scenes. Just the translation I'm pretty sure for the resolution is the context of not falling for her. So don't fall in love with me to my understanding should be accurate. I just don't think it's serious eternal love or anything bc suki is used. I think her line in the dream date is supposed to contrast with "the special kind of like" That Tifa realizes she felt in TOTP.
So she'd be saying she doesn't know for sure if she loves him like that. Which only makes her resolution even more strange then. Like did she think she'd fallen in love? And then realized it's in her imagination? Still weird to refer to him this way. (As the one that should not fall for her.)
Though I definitely agree in general with maybe they are both just really confused and this is just confirmation of her confusion and the scenes before are her working out her feelings. Which still doesnt give much closure imo. Bc if the answer is oh she isn't sure what she feels for him bc she really just loves Zack, then why all the romantic looking stuff with Cloud before this? And it really does feel like bait if we're getting intertwined fingers and such after that answer.
Lol, I wish we had more pieces to put everything together. I feel like there is a mostly finished puzzle in front of me but too many pieces have gone missing to be sure I know what the full picture is supposed to look like and I keep second guessing myself...
But yeah maybe part 3 does shed some light.
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GamerSkull
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We’ll know for sure in a couple of years. Hoping for a 2027 release to coincide with the 30th Anniversary.
Graymouse
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This mean eactly that because the negative at the end changes the phrase "Suki Ni Na Ra Na I De"
Dont fall in love.
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starcape91
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Speaking of “romantic framing” but then nothing happening. I’m in Cosmo Canyon doing side quests and I did the one where you have to take photos of celestial events with Aerith. I expected the selfie thing to be romantic but for some reason it just doesn’t come across that way. Cloud does act like he’s going to say something though but then turns away.
LunarTarotGirl
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Yeah and also laughs as he sneaks pictures of her it's very sweet. But stuff like that is exactly what I mean by feeling baited. Him about to say something. Then nothing.
If I'm supposed to buy in that he just sees Aerith as a friend stuff like that sends mixed signals. Gives me hope for two seconds, then nothing.
I really have to wonder what the intent is with these types of scenes.