Yea, the fortune-telling scene in Rebirth definitely contains an Advent Children reference. Players can think it’s solely referencing Aerith if they want, but, based on the ending of Rebirth and knowing where the story is heading, I think it more has to be about:
Cloud losing his sense of self and identity. I hope it doesn’t seem like I’m trying to disregard Aerith’s importance to Cloud. In fact, after seeing the end of Rebirth, I found it really cool that the devs are using Aerith’s death as one of the components that will contribute to Cloud’s mental breakdown in the Northern Crater. However, at the point we left off in Rebirth, I think the thing that Cloud cherishes most is his illusionary persona which will get shattered in Part 3.
I agree with this and I also think a big part of losing that identity is losing Tifa's faith in him as well. When Tifa shows signs of doubting him in the OG, that's when Cloud shatters because as he said "No matter what anyone else says, it's your opinion that matters."
I think it'll be worse in the retrilogy as she's already vocalized wanting to save him this time & wanting to help and if she falters, he'll definitely fall apart.
You can also see the doubt starting to build in her eyes at the end of the game starting when she sees Cloud cradling Aerith's dead body. I interpreted the look in her eyes as something akin to betrayal, as in she trusted Cloud to protect Aerith/keep her safe but when they arrived they find Aerith dead. I don't know if they'll play into the idea that he could've been the one to do it, given what happened in Gongaga, but the thought hasn't escaped me and I wouldn't be surprised if that's what makes Tifa falter on whether she can really save Cloud after all (I felt that was foreshadowed in their GS talk when looking for Dio).
Damn, just gotta gush some love for a sec. There's some beautifully articulate people here and I love reading your thoughts. @Eerie Welcome back..... I think? I think I last saw you during Remake days? That is some beautiful context to the interlocking clerith fingers. I loved it! I can view it with new appreciation now.
The resolution in 14 I get how it can connect here now so thanks for this explanation. But I would have liked them to have been more concrete. Like maybe refer back to the resolution it would be clearer. And if it's not Cloud that's confused but Aerith make that part clear. Her telling Cloud this when you're saying it's her who is confused right? Is extremely misleading. In fact a lot of stuff in the story is unnecessarily misleading if this is the conclusion we're supposed to get to.
There's a lot to answer, forgive the multiquote ^^
Chapter 14 Aerith's resolution in Remake was extremely straightforward. Aerith told it exactly like it was that even if he thought he had fallen for her, it was an illusion. It was done this way because back then Nojima didn't even know if they'd do a part 2, it wasn't even greenlighted yet. So instead we got this, and Toriyama who added for reference that this Aerith was pulled from the Lifestream in the close future (meaning she was already dead) just added a layer of description there, for us, to also understand where Aerith was coming from.
Because I was under the impression Aerith already KNEW Cloud's feelings for Tifa by Gongaga and was cheering them on. Then in the date she is making the observation that Cloud is not Zack. Like she literally says it.
Aerith has forgotten a lot of things like all her future memories (more is debatable, let's see the Ultimania first).
In her chapter 12 date, she knows that Zack and Cloud were friends, she knows they are different people, but the illusion is extremely strong and she is still not able to see the real Cloud. Also, this is an optional scene that not everyone will see, so they need a scene everyone will be able to watch. I think Aerith makes the assumption that since they were close friends then it means that they were maybe close in character, hence why she sees Zack so much in him. She has no clue Jenova is completely messing up with Cloud and that's the real reason why she sees Zack in him.
So why then do we have this dream date where she hasn't realized either of these things?? Things she already realized on screen. Do you see what is my issue with it?
While I am quite sure that this is "our" Cloud, I am not sure this is indeed "our" Aerith. We need the Ultimnia on this because it's confusing. This is maybe a meta Aerith who is central to all Aeriths in each world (hence why she says it's her world), maybe it's only one Aerith from that world but the timeline is so weird I don't feel it's working, or maybe it's "our" Aerith who also transferred her conscienciousness into that world with the black materia that serves as a key). Until we know further WTF is going on, I'm just going to treat this scene as a meta commentary about clerith.
The dream date is supposed to show us how Cloud and Aerith's personalities clash and just don't work IMHO. When you compare it to... Nibelheim and the way Cloud and Tifa interact, it's very jarring. I'm not talking about dates and whatnot, I'm talking on a deeper level, how they share the same trauma and are able to be each other's rock when things go down for one.
Up until then, you could say "yes but the clash of personalities works so well!" except they do not, and the devs took their time to show us that, that instead she needs Zack to shine - while by just existing, Tifa is perfectly able to take him out to dates too, she barely has to ask that he's already ready.
There is also a part of Aerith that's a little harder to understand I think, but Nojima did write her perfectly: Aerith loves life. She eats it, wants to see it, to try everything - hence why, because she's missing social cues, she often takes Cloud out to make new memories, not realising like in CoLW that these could be seen as romantic because she didn't see those actions that way. Those are probably memories she would've wanted to make with Zack, but Cloud is the next best thing to her since Zack isn't there. However as her feelings grow, her envy of the cloti bond that she talks about at the clocktower in Kalm grows too; and Cloud is nice to her, so who knows? She goes for it, partly because she needs to understand if he can replace Zack, but also she needs to figure out who he is, what are her feelings towards him. And then, things don't go well.
And then on top of it she realizes by the end of dream date right that she's chasing an illusion.
So she should again have again figured out both these things by her Chapter 14 appearance in the Resolution. So why does she need to talk to herself and muse about something she just figured out.
Even though she knows, and warns Cloud about it, she still has those unwanted feelings for him. Her wanting to not fall for him is exactly that. I've said it numerous times, but this Aerith looked very sad to me, and my own feeling was that by the end of the trilogy, her arc should be finished and her reunion with Zack should resolve them. Aerith in her resolution still hasn't resolved her feelings for Cloud, even though she knows he's not what he pretends to be.
And where did she get the idea Cloud would reciprocate or that he needs to tell him not to fall in love with her to considering as you said she sees him and Tifa, and the way he's been treating her all game.
I have absolutely no idea of why Aerith would think he'd reciprocate, but maybe she was taken by his kindness, especially during her date. She is missing social cues, so I am not sure if she realised how different Cloud was to Tifa. Every time she talks about them it's about "childhood friends" and their bond, so maybe she thinks that's how childhood friends act together.
The more I think that CA wasn't necessarily baited, per se, it's just that the good moments between them are really good moments. That doesn't necessarily make them romantic moments. Cloud is soft and nice to Aerith when he wants to be, but Cloud is soft and nice to everyone when he wants to be. Cloud actually doesn't treat Aerith any differently than he does Yuffie, Barret, Cait, Nanaki, etc. She's his friend and when she's sad, he offers comfort. When she tells a joke, he laughs/smiles. When she's happy, he's happy for her. When she needs encouragement, he provides it. But he would do this for all of them/he has done this for all of them. There are a ton of moments where he provides comfort and encouragement to everyone in the party with a soft tone of voice and a genuine smile. These actions aren't special nor are they saved just for Aerith.
When you look at it from that POV, CA isn't actually all that confusing in the end. I think a lot of us are just trained to look at their relationship romantically, but as Cody said we don't need to sexualize every relationship Cloud has. There's nothing Cloud says to Aerith that I can't imagine him saying to anyone else but there are things he says just for Tifa to hear and things he does just for Tifa to experience. That's the point the devs are trying to make, I suppose.
The caith sith fortune is basically the only thing in the whole LTD that I've always found difficult to place. Obviously it can't be meant to be literal as we all know Aerith dies. But Caith Sith is also a crappy fortune teller, so does it even matter? But if it doesn't matter, why is it there? Is it really just a red-herring? I find that weird for some reason, I find it a lot more satisfying if the prediction does come true, but in some completely different ironic way. But the initial "you will lose what is most dear to you" thing is in Rebirth as well, so clearly it's not some hold-out from earlier versions of the script. I just find it altogether weird because even if I did accept that the LT is an actual thing and Aerith is a genuine love connection that rivals Tifa then I STILL don't get those predictions.
He's not even a crappy fortune teller. He's simply not a fortune teller. He cant tell fortunes because he doesnt have any powers that lets him see the future. He just makes stuff up, and he's wrong all the time. He's literally one of those fake psychics who cold reads that you would see get exposed on TV. Right down to the fact that he's not even a cat. He's a robot controlled by some Shinra dude.
There are people with literal memories from the future in Rebirth, and somehow people still talk about the most sus and least magical member of the party as having some sort of special insight.
I agree with this and I also think a big part of losing that identity is losing Tifa's faith in him as well. When Tifa shows signs of doubting him in the OG, that's when Cloud shatters because as he said "No matter what anyone else says, it's your opinion that matters."
I think it'll be worse in the retrilogy as she's already vocalized wanting to save him this time & wanting to help and if she falters, he'll definitely fall apart.
You can also see the doubt starting to build in her eyes at the end of the game starting when she sees Cloud cradling Aerith's dead body. I interpreted the look in her eyes as something akin to betrayal, as in she trusted Cloud to protect Aerith/keep her safe but when they arrived they find Aerith dead. I don't know if they'll play into the idea that he could've been the one to do it, given what happened in Gongaga, but the thought hasn't escaped me and I wouldn't be surprised if that's what makes Tifa falter on whether she can really save Cloud after all (I felt that was foreshadowed in their GS talk when looking for Dio).
You can also kind of see it on Mt. Nibel. You can tell Tifa is uncomfortable with Cloud’s recollection of Zack and when Cloud gets scared about degrading, she tells him he’ll be alright but you can tell she seems to be trying to convince herself as well.
So, I realized there IS a non "not getting the hint/ butting in on the man she knows her best friend likes" explanation for Aerith flirting with Cloud all the time.
We know that Aerith and Tifa communicated about Cloud not being in Nibelheim 5 years ago. We know they talked about Aerith's missing boyfriend. What if even very early on they have come to realize that the Zack Tifa remembers in Nibelheim is the same Zack as Aerith and that Cloud is more than just play-acting being him? What if then Aerith is flirting with Cloud in a way that ZACK would have responded well to in order to see how Cloud reacts, to determine how deep the rabbit hole goes.
I wonder what they will show in the real Nibelheim reactor flashback. What would be Cloud’s reaction when he saw his Mom and Tifa got killed…I’m not sure if it graphic limitation of CC or something else, but his reaction toward his Mom and Tifa is less intense than his reaction toward Zack and Aerith’s death later on. I would at least expect him to cry…but that was never showed to us?
He's not even a crappy fortune teller. He's simply not a fortune teller. He cant tell fortunes because he doesnt have any powers that lets him see the future. He just makes stuff up, and he's wrong all the time. He's literally one of those fake psychics who cold reads that you would see get exposed on TV. Right down to the fact that he's not even a cat. He's a robot controlled by some Shinra dude.
There are people with literal memories from the future in Rebirth, and somehow people still talk about the most sus and least magical member of the party as having some sort of special insight.
I know he doesn't, I am talking purely from a storytelling perspective. Whenever ANYONE makes a prediction in storytelling, regardless of their ability to see the future, it generally comes true in some way, or the fact that their fortunes are absolute bullshit is a focal point in some way.
I don't know what to think re: Cloud's feelings for Aerith after she basically confesses to him. I don't think it's totally platonic, for what it's worth, and there's definitely some romantic under and overtones to the scenes leading up to her death (and after). That being said, what's confusing to me is that it didn't feel like Cloud and Aerith got enough intimate moments to build up to a tragic romantic climax? I say this with my Tifa goggles off, but he got way more of a gradual build with her than he did with Aerith? Similar to OG, whatever romance exists between Cloud and Aerith feels more plot-based than character-based, if that makes sense.
I don't know what to think re: Cloud's feelings for Aerith after she basically confesses to him. I don't think it's totally platonic, for what it's worth, and there's definitely some romantic under and overtones to the scenes leading up to her death (and after). That being said, what's confusing to me is that it didn't feel like Cloud and Aerith got enough intimate moments to build up to a tragic romantic climax? I say this with my Tifa goggles off, but he got way more of a gradual build with her than he did with Aerith? Similar to OG, whatever romance exists between Cloud and Aerith feels more plot-based than character-based, if that makes sense.
Do you guys think there will still be 2 Highwind scenes? And if so, what would determine them? Are they going to keep the affection system or do something else completely different?
Yeah, I'm not even sure what to make of the Zack stuff, either. Him asking Marlene if Aerith loves Cloud and his reaction to her answer? Him still wanting very much to be there for Cloud and then asking him to save her? Zack and Aerith getting zero moments despite the bazillion different worlds in which they exist? I still definitely firmly believe they've committed to CT and ZA, but I think I got pretty confused by... everything that's thrown at you at the end.
Ironically, I feel like the ships can serve as guideposts for what'll unfold in the plot?? Something something occam's razor. Same goes for AC... if all multiverse roads lead to AC, then... well.
Do you guys think there will still be 2 Highwind scenes? And if so, what would determine them? Are they going to keep the affection system or do something else completely different?
I actually kind of doubt it. The plot, and subsequently, Tifa and Cloud's relationship would have developed so far by that point in the story that I think it would be rather meaningless to add any sort of affection point system to it.
Outside of the GS dates and despite all other suggestive/romantic moments between Cloud and the girls, only he and Tifa got an almost-kiss. And this may sound totally unhinged, but they could have added an almost-kiss between him and lifestream/ghost/spirit Aerith given the drama of everything.
I don't know what to think re: Cloud's feelings for Aerith after she basically confesses to him. I don't think it's totally platonic, for what it's worth, and there's definitely some romantic under and overtones to the scenes leading up to her death (and after). That being said, what's confusing to me is that it didn't feel like Cloud and Aerith got enough intimate moments to build up to a tragic romantic climax? I say this with my Tifa goggles off, but he got way more of a gradual build with her than he did with Aerith? Similar to OG, whatever romance exists between Cloud and Aerith feels more plot-based than character-based, if that makes sense.
I definitely got romantic undertones too. But at the same time it felt off in a way that felt intentionally off.. like the dream date world felt wrong. Their interactions with other people felt wrong. Just yeah... An inherent sense of wrongness.
As for the romantic undertones post death - I also got that and felt that was understandable. Aerith basically confesses to him and then is killed in front of him. I'm personally of the belief that Cloud had a really beautiful friendship with Aerith with an undertone of attraction... So picture someone you're really close with and also have a kind of.. shall we say dormant(?) attraction to confessing to you and immediately following this dying in front of you. You would be in a massive state of 'what if' your feelings would be so confused. Because you do love this person. And you would feel that love very acutely after witnessing something like that. And his (delusional) relief at her being 'alive' would overshadow Tifa in that moment. It would overshadow literally everything and that makes sense. His brain would be like you should treasure her, she loves you, she almost died - she's been a great person in your life, you love her, you should treasure her.
And yeah idk. It seems completely normal to me in the way that I understand grief to function. I've lost a couple friends in late teens, early twenties and exes, close friends etc many people had those intense feelings of love in the aftermath. Grief is an extremely powerful emotion.
I definitely got romantic undertones too. But at the same time it felt off in a way that felt intentionally off.. like the dream date world felt wrong. Their interactions with other people felt wrong. Just yeah... An inherent sense of wrongness.
As for the romantic undertones post death - I also got that and felt that was understandable. Aerith basically confesses to him and then is killed in front of him. I'm personally of the belief that Cloud had a really beautiful friendship with Aerith with an undertone of attraction... So picture someone you're really close with and also have a kind of.. shall we say dormant(?) attraction to confessing to you and immediately following this dying in front of you. You would be in a massive state of 'what if' your feelings would be so confused. Because you do love this person. And you would feel that love very acutely after witnessing something like that. And his (delusional) relief at her being 'alive' would overshadow Tifa in that moment. It would overshadow literally everything and that makes sense. His brain would be like you should treasure her, she loves you, she almost died - she's been a great person in your life, you love her, you should treasure her.
And yeah idk. It seems completely normal to me in the way that I understand grief to function. I've lost a couple friends in late teens, early twenties and exes, close friends etc many people had those intense feelings of love in the aftermath. Grief is an extremely powerful emotion.
Those are all really good points, for sure, especially with someone who has a savior/failure complex like Cloud.... with his current scrambled egg brains on top of it. It's funny because shipping doesn't even matter at that point and even with Tifa, I think she's back to being somewhat scared of Cloud, given his behavior after Aerith's death.
Was anyone else super disturbed by that final scene with the Tiny Bronco? I felt so much dread as everyone climbed into the plane while Cloud was just pretending everything was okay, that he was a mentally sound leader, that he would willingly pick up the slack if anyone fell behind. Like..... what the fuck. I am SO stressed lol.
Yeah, I'm not even sure what to make of the Zack stuff, either. Him asking Marlene if Aerith loves Cloud and his reaction to her answer? Him still wanting very much to be there for Cloud and then asking him to save her? Zack and Aerith getting zero moments despite the bazillion different worlds in which they exist? I still definitely firmly believe they've committed to CT and ZA, but I think I got pretty confused by... everything that's thrown at you at the end.
Ironically, I feel like the ships can serve as guideposts for what'll unfold in the plot?? Something something occam's razor. Same goes for AC... if all multiverse roads lead to AC, then... well.
I’m surprised when I saw everyone is happy with the trilogy leads to ACC. I mean ACC even though they tried really hard is a bad movie. The graphic is awesome, But thinking about Cloud abandoning his family for weeks just iterated me. This is not the Cloud from the game. And if they need several novels to explain a movie, it is not great storytelling.
I’m surprised when I saw everyone is happy with the trilogy leads to ACC. I mean ACC even though they tried really hard is a bad movie. The graphic is awesome, But thinking about Cloud abandoning his family for weeks just iterated me. This is not the Cloud from the game. And if they need several novels to explain a movie, it is not great storytelling.
Those are all really good points, for sure, especially with someone who has a savior/failure complex like Cloud.... with his current scrambled egg brains on top of it. It's funny because shipping doesn't even matter at that point and even with Tifa, I think she's back to being somewhat scared of Cloud, given his behavior after Aerith's death.
Was anyone else super disturbed by that final scene with the Tiny Bronco? I felt so much dread as everyone climbed into the plane while Cloud was just pretending everything was okay, that he was a mentally sound leader, that he would willingly pick up the slack if anyone fell behind. Like..... what the fuck. I am SO stressed lol.
I agree. In fact I think overall shipping shouldn't matter (no matter how much I enjoy discussing it) to the story. It's themes run so, so much deeper than that. But I think Clouds intense love for Aerith post death is an extremely natural psychological response to such a traumatic event. I would just disagree with anyone saying that means he loves her more than Tifa.. because that's really not how grief functions at all. Those intense feelings don't last forever and often they aren't a genuine reflection of a stable mindset because no one is stable when experiencing intense grief. Add that to the pre existing scrambled egg brain too. (Loved that description btw)
Tifa is absolutely scared of/for Cloud. She doesn't know what's going on and probably doesn't understand who he is. Especially since he's acting like... chipper when she's just seen Aerith dead.
And yes, deliciously disturbed lmao. Clouds arc is my favourite without a doubt. His struggles with sanity, identity and being controlled are such compelling plot points. I thought they did such a good job with him falling under Jenovas influence in this game. I was unbelievably impressed. But yes, horrified in a 'manically grinning during the final scene because they really nailed how disturbing this is' kind of way
And yes, deliciously disturbed lmao. Clouds arc is my favourite without a doubt. His struggles with sanity, identity and being controlled are such compelling plot points. I thought they did such a good job with him falling under Jenovas influence in this game. I was unbelievably impressed. But yes, horrified in a 'manically grinning during the final scene because they really nailed how disturbing this is' kind of way
It's the perfect fever pitch following everything that happens at the temple of ancients. But them throwing in No Promises to Keep made things feel even more dissonant. I went to bed feeling so, so unsettled lol.
It feels like everyone tries to quantify love in this game it's such a complex emotion though. To be fair - I think people try to fit love into neat little boxes in real life too and also disagree with that. Humans are messy, emotional things.
It's the perfect fever pitch following everything that happens at the temple of ancients. But them throwing in No Promises to Keep made things feel even more dissonant. I went to bed feeling so, so unsettled lol.
But yeah, I agree with that assessment. I know people have their problems with the ending - but Clouds mental struggle is like.. the main driving plot point for me, so I'm not at all mad that they're choosing to zoom in on that. People are saying Aerith didn't get her moment properly with the alterations to her death scene but the fact is the main focus of the story was never Aerith - it's Cloud. I am really enjoying that the attention is being put on his fragile mental state and how it makes him even more vulnerable to Jenovas influence. I think that unsettled feeling you have will have an absolutely outstanding payoff in part three when he properly snaps. What an amazing build up!
While I do think we can interpret romantic undertones to the ending with CA, I believe their interactions are meant to be creepy and unsettling to the viewer. We're not supposed to be romanticizing it or thinking about them as a couple at all.
Similarly, they've used platonic framing for her death so that when his true self is restored the romantic undertones will probably be gone (for example, if you watch the scene where Sonon's sister dies it's the exact same framing as CA with the hand on the face and everything).
While I do think we can interpret romantic undertones to the ending with CA, I believe their interactions are meant to be creepy and unsettling to the viewer. We're not supposed to be romanticizing it or thinking about them as a couple at all.
Similarly, they've used platonic framing for her death so that when his true self is restored the romantic undertones will probably be gone (for example, if you watch the scene where Sonon's sister dies it's the exact same framing as CA with the hand on the face and everything).
Yeah the entire thing just felt off and sad to me. Aerith is having an understandable slightly manic moment grasping for some sweetness before the end—it's clear she knows she's going to die. And that all coinciding with the fever pitch of Cloud's mental collapse leading up to the dream sequence. Ugh.
it's such a complex emotion though. To be fair - I think people try to fit love into neat little boxes in real life too and also disagree with that. Humans are messy, emotional things.