SPOILERS LTD Remake — It's like New Coke except ... no, it's exactly like New Coke

[Rin]

Yoooo! A kindred soul!
What you said here is basically me when I first played FF7. I looped back to not caring for him in AC (which I also saw when I was 14) and started warming up to him again in his appearances in later works in the Compilation (namely CC).


Cloud's treatment of Aerith is a pretty stark contrast in comparison to Zack's but...much as I wanna get mad at him on Aerith's behalf... I just can't xD I relate with him in disliking being forced to hang out, especially with someone who's bound to not give me the space I need to catch up and breathe, but also being unable to just say no. Basically, his reaction is normal to me xP

That said, the photographer saying they have no chemistry is...overkill. And kinda untrue from a meta perspective


Re: All the FFX comparisons... Can the CAs please find another ship for comparison? Tidus and Yuna --also my personal fave FF OTP-- don't deserve this! And as you all have said, they're not comparable anyway!

I'll take the English line "you look like you're at a funeral" over the no-chemistry line even tho I agree that they have minimal chemistry in the retrilogy compared to the OG. They have good chemistry as friends, but not love interests if that makes sense. Like they're toeing a line but never directly crossing it, so it doesn't read as romantic chemistry the way it used to back in 1997.

Also, as an introvert I totally get Clouds responses to her and back in my teenage days/early 20s I'd probably act similarly or say something akin to him. But now that I'm older and I've learned how to deal with people or excuse myself from situations I don't want to be in, I just see his behaviour and shake my head lmao but I don't hold it against him, I just wanna smack some sense into him. Like go make memories with your friend, dude!! You're gonna regret it if you don't.... quite literally.

 

[Graymouse]

I'll take the English line "you look like you're at a funeral" over the no-chemistry line even tho I agree that they have minimal chemistry in the retrilogy compared to the OG. They have good chemistry as friends, but not love interests if that makes sense. Like they're toeing a line but never directly crossing it, so it doesn't read as romantic chemistry the way it used to back in 1997.

Isn't this kinda what the CloTi wanted for years? A clear cut line drawn into the sand. C/A = platonic friends. C/T = Lovers?

We often times have to remember that when we get what we want it doesn't necessarily make you happy.

I think the Devs are finally coming to terms with this stupid LTD and that it has lasted for way too long and they finally have the balls to put an end to it and leave no doubt with who Cloud's end game is.

(did not mean to come off a hard ass. I'm sorry )

 

[Rin]

Isn't this kinda what the CloTi wanted for years? A clear cut line drawn into the sand. C/A = platonic friends. C/T = Lovers?

We often times have to remember that when we get what we want it doesn't necessarily make you happy.

I think the Devs are finally coming to terms with this stupid LTD and that it has lasted for way too long and they finally have the balls to put an end to it and leave no doubt with who Cloud's end game is.

(did not mean to come off a hard ass. I'm sorry )

Oh, no I'm not complaining lol it's just hard to reconcile with after 27 years. I quite like that it's clear cut and plain to see!

 

[Graymouse]

Oh, no I'm not complaining lol it's just hard to reconcile with after 27 years. I quite like that it's clear cut and plain to see!

yeah, i know I was venting. Sorry!

 

[Empyrea]

Isn't this kinda what the CloTi wanted for years? A clear cut line drawn into the sand. C/A = platonic friends. C/T = Lovers?

We often times have to remember that when we get what we want it doesn't necessarily make you happy.

I think the Devs are finally coming to terms with this stupid LTD and that it has lasted for way too long and they finally have the balls to put an end to it and leave no doubt with who Cloud's end game is.

(did not mean to come off a hard ass. I'm sorry )

Personally I like that it's plain as day. I just have some niggles with how they did it overall, none of which are anywhere near being dealbreakers.

 

[Hix]

Oh, no I'm not complaining lol it's just hard to reconcile with after 27 years. I quite like that it's clear cut and plain to see!

I think it's important to remember what the devs said about this project;




Less ambiguity but in exchange a far greater connection to Cloud, because he has a very defined personality with clear preferences and tastes. It doesn't only apply to the LTD of course, but the devs have very clearly spelled out that Cloud loves Tifa. This fact has always been integral to Cloud's character and the overall story, but, now that it's being spelled out, it allows the devs to show much more without worrying about mixed signals.

I don't think the execution of this vision has been flawless, by any means. That said, I'm not sure it was ever going to be possible to make every scene 100% free of ambiguity or multiple interpretations. I think things will be easier for them in part three and, when looking back on the trilogy once complete, certain scenes that could be interpreted as romantic will be much more easily viewed as platonic.

On another topic, I love Nojima's words here "Cloud's fiery flame", because that's a perfect descriptor for the kind of sheer passion we see in Rebirth when Cloud kisses Tifa.

 

[Maidenofwar]

Uh, I don't know that I would call that snapping. I would say that that was an example of them misunderstanding each other when they were extremely young and then Tifa stating the obvious. And Cloud follows up saying he was a pain in the ass and that there's still time to get to know each other? They end up in a rather sweet place.

Yeah, because Cloud isn't allowed to be the remotest bit peeved at Tifa, ever. I'm sorry, but these scenes are allowed to have negatives, Tifa got it wrong as an adult by still assuming Cloud was happy/having fun then and Cloud initially didn't take that well. You might have your reasonings for them but as I have to put up with the constant downputtings and underminings of Aerith's scenes even though I don't see them as negatively as many and I have my reasonings to why they are nice too actually. All of these scenes have ups and downs, neither has only ups. It ended up on a more positive note but it wasn't all plain sailing.

I'm happy with the way Cloud is treating Aerith so far, he steps in front to protect her from Elena, and he puts his arms across her to shield her from the sandstorm, etc, I really don't see that he's so awful to her.

It reminds me of in OG when Cloud snarks at Aerith about being cut out to be in Soldier and Aerith says you're terrible. Some people enjoy their teasing and bickering, the banter, etc.

If Cloud was that resistant, and unresponsive, and oblivious, or so reluctant to spend time with her, why would he be whipping out his camera to sneak shots of her, holding his hand open for her to take, and other stuff.

 

[r_monk]

Yeah, because Cloud isn't allowed to be the remotest bit peeved at Tifa, ever. I'm sorry, but these scenes are allowed to have negatives. You might have your reasonings for them but as I have to put up with the constant downputtings and underminings of Aerith's scenes even though I don't see them as negatively as many and I have my reasonings to why they are nice too actually. All of these scenes have ups and downs, neither has only ups.

I'm happy with the way Cloud is treating Aerith so far, he steps in front to protect her from Elena, and he puts his arms across her to shield her from the sandstorm, etc, I really don't see that he's so awful to her.

No offense, but I don't really view any of those interactions in terms of quantifiable ups and downs. That's just not how conversations work, in fiction or in real life. Sure, you could qualify a genuine misunderstanding as a supposed negative, but if in the end, a mutual understanding and agreement to try harder next time is what comes from it... well, what then? If we're going by your standards, then that's a net positive. Again, this isn't really how I see things. And frankly, strictly "positive" interactions are not really compelling to me, which is why I really enjoyed the tension and miscommunication and mutual frustration, hurt, and even anger that colored Tifa and Cloud's conversations at the start of the game.

I never said Cloud was awful to Aerith, in fact I pointed out how he's actually quite emotionally attuned and appropriately responsive to most of the cast, Aerith included. His understandable protectiveness of her is also something I wasn't touching upon?

Not really sure where this defensiveness is coming from. I'm not really comparing or pitting Cloud's dynamics with Tifa or Aerith against each other, rather trying to evaluate each on its own. I'd really like to avoid making any assumptions, but I'm not interested in painting one ship's dynamic as negative in order to counteract how another ship is being perceived.

I'm glad you're pleased with the Cloud and Aerith scenes in Rebirth. That isn't something I want to or am interested in arguing against. I'm just making my own observations.

 

[AncientGrimoire]

There’s been actual comparisons between Cloud and Aerith with Tidus and Yuna?!

Like, not playing and reading the story of VII seriously is one thing, but to then go and do the same to X as well?!

The more apt comparison to make purely based on the energy of the characters and their dynamic is Zack and Aerith, and Tidus and Yuna.

But also why compare? If you ask me all the relationships are unique to themselves and the overarching backdrop of the story with which they play against.

Like Tidus and Yuna’s relationship is unique because of the circumstances of X’s narrative that forms the basis for their development. Same with Cloud and Aerith, and Zack and Aerith.

And I’m not even going to dignify the comparison to Seymour and Yuna with a response.

 

[Maidenofwar]

I was asked a question as to where Tifa's scenes weren't all positive and I responded, then that was responded to and I defended that, that is all. Not singling anyone out for saying Cloud was awful to Aerith just the general stance of negatives being highlighted when it comes to one girl and not the other.

 

[Rin]

Yeah, because Cloud isn't allowed to be the remotest bit peeved at Tifa, ever. I'm sorry, but these scenes are allowed to have negatives, Tifa got it wrong as an adult by still assuming Cloud was happy/having fun then and Cloud initially didn't take that well. You might have your reasonings for them but as I have to put up with the constant downputtings and underminings of Aerith's scenes even though I don't see them as negatively as many and I have my reasonings to why they are nice too actually. All of these scenes have ups and downs, neither has only ups. It ended up on a more positive note but it wasn't all plain sailing.

I'm happy with the way Cloud is treating Aerith so far, he steps in front to protect her from Elena, and he puts his arms across her to shield her from the sandstorm, etc, I really don't see that he's so awful to her.

It reminds me of in OG when Cloud snarks at Aerith about being cut out to be in Soldier and Aerith says you're terrible. Some people enjoy their teasing and bickering, the banter, etc.

If Cloud was that resistant, and unresponsive, and oblivious, or so reluctant to spend time with her, why would he be whipping out his camera to sneak shots of her, holding his hand open for her to take, and other stuff.

I don't think anyone said that he's awful to her 24/7, just that sometimes his reactions toward her frustrate us and make us want to smack him. I'm glad you don't feel that way toward him, but I genuinely like Aerith as a character and I get annoyed when he's rude to her. I'm happy you don't think he's being rude, but some of us still cringe when we believe he's being unnecessarily harsh

 

[Rose Alive]

He was pissing me off in the dream date to start but he got better as it went along. But when the shop owner gives her the flower pin and he's mad about it cause he knows the meaning I was like "This is so painful, I can't do this." Thankfully, he lightened up but then the NPCs just kept driving it home I heard in Spanish the photographer says they have no chemistry. I was like OK OK WE GET IT

The things the NPCs are saying being more for the audience than the actual characters, reminds me of Aerith's resolution scene in Remake with her saying Cloud's love for her, if he had it, wasn't real. I always felt that line was meant more for the players than for Cloud.

Although I don't agree that Cloud and Aerith have no chemistry.

 

[Rin]

The things the NPCs are saying being more for the audience than the actual characters, reminds me of Aerith's resolution scene in Remake with her saying Cloud's love for her, if he had it, wasn't real. I always felt that line was meant more for the players than for Cloud.

Although I don't agree that Cloud and Aerith have no chemistry.

Oh, definitely. It's 100% for the player but it's so heavy handed, it was not enjoyable for me lol

 

[Eerie]

I was asked a question as to where Tifa's scenes weren't all positive and I responded, then that was responded to and I defended that, that is all. Not singling anyone out for saying Cloud was awful to Aerith just the general stance of negatives being highlighted when it comes to one girl and not the other.

I think two things:

- first in that cloti scene, Cloud is surprised by Tifa's take. In these intimate moments and souvenirs they share, Cloud and Tifa are learning more about themselves, things they missed because little Cloud was a little shithead sometimes (luckily he grew out of it in the army). I've played this scene just yesterday, so I'm pretty keen on what it delivers as feelings conveyed, though once again I play in French and the feelings may change compared to the English dub;

- second the way Cloud answers in that Aerith sidequest IS at odds with how he usually treats her: what I see there is that he is not interested in having a date, even a fake one, with her, and telling her so, and quite rudely, frankly. However we also must not forget that in the OG too, he could be very rude to Aerith, seeing a lot of people saying they had a better chemistry in the OG, I want to ask: are you sureeeeee? Because it was always a point of the LTD that he could be very rude to Aerith and never to Tifa.

I understand your frustration but they went away with Cloud who can't decide between Aerith and Tifa, for the sake of a better storytelling. I think fans should accept that CA is not canon, and ship them nonetheless. But SE went hard to show fans where the romance is at; and honestly when I learned about the Kalm scene, with Peko, we went out screaming lmao (we're both big fans of Bridgerton, so we know a romance trope when we see it lol).

To me, you can think CA is romantic in their own scenes, but when Tifa comes into the picture, it's simply not possible anymore: if I compare this to the banter about food that follows with Cloud and Tifa where they're both remembering their youth, flirting lightly, and since those two quests are side by side, yeah, it is jarring.

As a CT fan, I knew I was going to be fed when Nomura, out of ANY of the devs, the guy who doesn't care about romance one bit, said they focused on their relationship. Combined that with Nojima who wants to be more clear, well.

 

[Rin]

I was asked a question as to where Tifa's scenes weren't all positive and I responded, then that was responded to and I defended that, that is all. Not singling anyone out for saying Cloud was awful to Aerith just the general stance of negatives being highlighted when it comes to one girl and not the other.

I feel like this is my fault and for that I'm sorry. I wasn't clear enough about what I meant when I initially asked you for examples, because my frame of reference for his "awful behaviour" toward Aerith was the Costa del Sol side quest where they go on a series of dates to help the fashion designers make new swimwear. I didn't like their interactions in that side quest and it coloured my POV of their relationship for the rest of the game. When I asked for examples of Cloud snapping at Tifa, I was asking for examples on that same level as the Costa del Sol date, not just general times where Cloud and Tifa have had miscommunication or misunderstandings.

I didn't mean to make you feel like you had to defend CA's dynamic, I was just curious as to whether there was a side quest I was missing that showed Cloud being just as frustrated and worked up with T as that specific side quest with A. But I really think the Costa del Sol side quest is just a one-off as Clouds behaviour toward Aerith never really becomes that unfriendly or unwelcoming again at any other point in the game.

In any case, really sorry that my curiosity backed you into a corner! That was never my intention.

 

[Empyrea]

There’s been actual comparisons between Cloud and Aerith with Tidus and Yuna?!

Like, not playing and reading the story of VII seriously is one thing, but to then go and do the same to X as well?!

The more apt comparison to make purely based on the energy of the characters and their dynamic is Zack and Aerith, and Tidus and Yuna.

But also why compare? If you ask me all the relationships are unique to themselves and the overarching backdrop of the story with which they play against.

Like Tidus and Yuna’s relationship is unique because of the circumstances of X’s narrative that forms the basis for their development. Same with Cloud and Aerith, and Zack and Aerith.

And I’m not even going to dignify the comparison to Seymour and Yuna with a response.

I just had a bit of a brainwave, but I think I get where the comparisons are coming from. They're still so off base, don't get me wrong, but it might be idea of it?

Anyway, what I mean is that basically, Tidus is Yuna's guardian (one of, really) just as Cloud is Aerith's bodyguard. Meanwhile, Aerith is the last Cetra in the planet whereas Yuna is one of the summoners (sure, not the last one, but she is the last one among those who did beat Sin and thus, saves the world like Aerith does by praying to the Lifestream during Meteorfall).

...and that's all I got.

 

[GamerSkull]

Guuuuys. I just saw a twitter post comparing Aerith and Clouds scene in the church to Tidus and Yunas final goodbye in FFX and I hate it ahaha. Whyyyyy? It's not the same! Tidus and Yuna were very openly in love and had kissed and everything wth?! Why they gotta do my homies dirty like that?

No, just no. Bruh….

How are they even remotely the same scene lol

 

[Rin]

However we also must not forget that in the OG too, he could be very rude to Aerith, seeing a lot of people saying they had a better chemistry in the OG, I want to ask: are you sureeeeee? Because it was always a point of the LTD that he could be very rude to Aerith and never to Tifa.

While this is true, they just arguably had more moments in the OG that were romantic which have been removed from Rebirth. I was waiting for the scene where he promises to take her on the Highwind one day but I think they cut that scene out and instead went for foreshadowing that frames Cloud and Tifa standing under the Highwind in Junon instead. The promise to take her on the Highwind could be hidden behind a sidequest I haven't done yet though but since I haven't seen anyone bring it up I figured it was removed. I always thought that moment between them was very sweet; same with the one where he goes, "But I'm-- We're here for you, right?" in Cosmo Canyon but they removed that as well. They actually had Cloud say "We're here for you" to Barret, which I gotta admit was very touching.

 

[Maidenofwar]

Aerith also does lifestream summon thing with her staff similar to Yuna pyrefly summon/sending. I think it's fine to make comparisons just not to say it's a fact like devs say FFVII and FFX are connected but that doesn't mean Aerith is literal incarnation of Yuna unless the devs specifically say that or something.

Rin, what a lovely post. Aaw you, you're fine, thank you. I'm sorry too, and to r_monk too, I didn't mean to single anyone out.

If SE ever made official statement like, CA isn't canon, never was and never could have been, I think I'd leave the shipping fandom xD Not general fandom because of lore or anything but yeah.

 

[Rin]

If SE ever made official statement like, CA isn't canon, never was and never could have been, I think I'd leave the shipping fandom xD Not general fandom because of lore or anything but yeah.

Oh. don't worry they'll never say that. Or, well... never say never but seems very unlikely to me.
At most, I could see them saying that in 1997 they intended to depict 2 love interests but as the world of FF7 grew and the character dynamics began to shift and grow, they started to flesh ZA and CT out more which changed the facet of CAs relationship from what it originally was.

 

[r_monk]

Aerith also does lifestream summon thing with her staff similar to Yuna pyrefly summon/sending. I think it's fine to make comparisons just not to say it's a fact like devs say FFVII and FFX are connected but that doesn't mean Aerith is literal incarnation of Yuna unless the devs specifically say that or something.

Rin, what a lovely post. Aaw you, you're fine, thank you. I'm sorry too, and to r_monk too, I didn't mean to single anyone out.

If SE ever made official statement like, CA isn't canon, never was and never could have been, I think I'd leave the shipping fandom xD Not general fandom because of lore or anything but yeah.

No worries at all. Apologies if any of my posts came off as rude or aggressive. Never my intention.

 

[Maidenofwar]

Speaking of ZA I think someone said some people were saying they wanted Zack to die again (???) which for me I wouldn't want that, so I have a questions, do you think Zack already died again in Rebirth?, if not I assume everyone here doesn’t mind him living, maybe even crossing over into Cloud's world, even if Aerith is dead?

I'm sure I'll probably find some positive in Costa Del Sol when I do it xD I only remember from friend's stream but only caught a bit of it.

 

[Rin]

It's not all bad, but he does tell her pretty plainly that he doesn't view this as a romantic date and doesn't want her to view it that way either. He also keeps trashing the date ideas by calling them cheap, telling Aerith he's not a romantic, basically saying the whole thing is stupid and he'sjust doing it to get paid, etc. The dialogue is just a bit cringey and off-putting but Aerith seems to be having a good time though, so if that's more your speed then I think you'll be just fine w/ it, maybe lol

I also don't rly want Zack to die again but I don't see what other outcome there is if everything leads to ACC. I'll be really sad. His storyline is already bumming me out with how he thinks Aerith doesn't love him anymore and has chosen Cloud. Tbh I hate it and it's probably a big reason why I can't enjoy CA in Rebirth, Zack is just a big looming shadow and it feels .... bad because it's one thing when he's dead and gone, we're not really thinking about him, but its another when we see him so desperately trying to find a way to wake her up, save her, etc.

 

[Eerie]

If SE ever made official statement like, CA isn't canon, never was and never could have been, I think I'd leave the shipping fandom xD Not general fandom because of lore or anything but yeah.

I mean, as long as you enjoy them together, you can ship them? There's nothing stopping you ^^

At most, I could see them saying that in 1997 they intended to depict 2 love interests

Nomura already said in 97' that the choice was for players and that the story only goes one way. In Rebirth especially, they're going hard on this: we have the illusion of chosing who will be our date, but in the end, there's only one romance in the main story, and that couple has a near kiss that's inescapable there. After playing maybe I'll watch a movie scenes-only to get a better impression of the main story (no sidequest etc.).

I also don't rly want Zack to die again but I don't see what other outcome there is if everything leads to ACC.

If only I had only ONE theory about the ending, it'd be easier on me but the first question I have to ask is: is that even "our" Zack? I also had the impression that those worlds where worlds were the Planet was trying to look for alternatives (or maybe it is Aerith not the Planet) where Zack doesn't die, but it's screwed up either way because... you need Tifa to get Cloud who can be the only one who wins against Sephiroth. There's a reason why those White Whispers and Weapons are in Gongaga and her name is Tifa.

 

[Rin]

If only I had only ONE theory about the ending, it'd be easier on me but the first question I have to ask is: is that even "our" Zack? I also had the impression that those worlds were worlds were the Planet was trying to look for alternatives (or maybe it is Aerith not the Planet) where Zack doesn't die, but it's screwed up either way because... you need Tifa to get Cloud who can be the only one who wins against Sephiroth. There's a reason why those White Whispers and Weapons are in Gongaga and her name is Tifa.

Yeah. I have no idea what they're doing/what the plan is but all I know is that it's depressing me lol