SPOILERS LTD Remake — It's like New Coke except ... no, it's exactly like New Coke

[starcape91]

Some like to say that she was just a childhood crush. Cloud clearly still had strong feelings for Tifa when he returned home to Nibelheim. Then he spent several years in a test tube. In Remake and Rebirth, even with all of his trauma and Sephiroth’s manipulation and literal control from JENOVA, he still musters up enough determination to kiss her. She’s kind, sweet, playful, resourceful, beautiful, cute, compassionate, determined, and his anchor. These things are not lost on Cloud. He admires her, he has since he was little. He loves her. Be together for the rest of their days loves her.

 

[Rin]

Some like to say that she was just a childhood crush. Cloud clearly still had strong feelings for Tifa when he returned home to Nibelheim. Then he spent several years in a test tube. In Remake and Rebirth, even with all of his trauma and Sephiroth’s manipulation and literal control from JENOVA, he still musters up enough determination to kiss her.

Plus he's only functional because she found him. It is his determination to be with her in any capacity that allows the JENOVA cells to craft a SOLDIER identity for him at all. Without it.... Well, we see what he's like in Zack's TL. Unresponsive. Tifa is weaved into the very core of Cloud's being. You can't separate them from each other narratively.

 

[GamerSkull]

Yah I think he will choose Tifa and I prefer that. But really my understanding is that the “what-if” part is what keeps a lot of CA hooked…and right now there are always reasons to argue
“He is not in his right mind”, “He is jealous about Zack” “He is dense he doesn’t realize how much he loves her” etc…
These arguments should all go away if they just gave him 10 years of peaceful life right? RIGHT? He can’t be that bad that he can’t figure it out in 10 years…right?

Honestly I just love Cloud. I prefer he ends up with Tifa but I’m totally fine if he choose Aerith (if she is alive). Nobody has to end up with their first puppy live even though it is depicted a lot in fictions. And I equally love Aerith and Tifa. I can’t say enough praise for Tifa and not even at one point during my play that I don’t enjoy Aerith’s company. What triggered me is people talking shit about the girls and Cloud. I blame the toxic LTD and I hope it can just go away for good.

The problem is the “what-if” comes from the fans’ wish fulfillment and not the actual narrative.

The story just doesn’t work in its current state if he ends up choosing Aerith. Which is fine… they just need to change a ton like I said.

Some of this is just twisting what’s happening though. “He’s not in his right mind”… his persona is created based on what he thinks a hero ought to be, which is the persona that attracts Aerith. We don’t actually know how she’d feel with true Cloud, maybe she’d still like him but would she romantically like him?

“He is jealous about Zack.” He actually isn’t, he hasn’t expressed any jealousy whatsoever. Only concern that his absence is making Aerith sad.

“He is dense, he doesn’t realize her love.” Perhaps this is the most reasonable one but it’s still a bit flimsy. He does seem to be aware of flirting so it’s not that he’s dense. He flirts with Tifa when she fixes him a drink. He obviously has some idea of how it looks, He’s not as stupid as some people claim he is.

 

[Ryushikaze]

Plus he's only functional because she found him. It is his determination to be with her in any capacity that allows the JENOVA cells to craft a SOLDIER identity for him at all. Without it.... Well, we see what he's like in Zack's TL. Unresponsive. Tifa is weaved into the very core of Cloud's being. You can't separate them from each other narratively.

In Before Crisis, if Cloud gets KO'd, he apologizes about not fulfilling the promise (He also goes into a fugue state and becomes SOLDIER level scary without any treatment during the same chapter) so it's a thing the creators have never let up on.

The problem is the “what-if” comes from the fans’ wish fulfillment and not the actual narrative.

The story just doesn’t work in its current state if he ends up choosing Aerith. Which is fine… they just need to change a ton like I said.

Some of this is just twisting what’s happening though. “He’s not in his right mind”… his persona is created based on what he thinks a hero ought to be, which is the persona that attracts Aerith. We don’t actually know how she’d feel with true Cloud, maybe she’d still like him but would she romantically like him?

“He is jealous about Zack.” He actually isn’t, he hasn’t expressed any jealously whatsoever. Only concern that his absence is making Aerith sad.

“He is dense, he doesn’t realize her love.” Perhaps this is the most reasonable one but it’s still a bit flimsy. He does seem to be aware of flirting so it’s not that he’s dense. He flirts with Tifa when she fixes him a drink. He obviously has some idea of how it looks, He’s not as stupid as some people claim he is.

I do think his fractured Psyche might not allow itself to process why she likes him because that invites comaprisons to how Zack died and that invites the pain. We do know he can remember Zack, he just has to rewrite his recollections and making the connections also invites the hurty.

He's also not interested in pursuing Aerith because he has Tifa.

I have said it many times, probably will say it many more. Cloud finding Aerith attractive is not surpising. That does not automatically mean he definitely wants to pursue her.

 

[Rin]

“He is dense, he doesn’t realize her love.” Perhaps this is the most reasonable one but it’s still a bit flimsy. He does seem to be aware of flirting so it’s not that he’s dense. He flirts with Tifa when she fixes him a drink. He obviously has some idea of how it looks, He’s not as stupid as some people claim he is.

This reminds me that I was telling a friend of mine that Cloud and Tifa have a similar approach to when someone they care about shows romantic feelings for them but they don't reciprocate them. They both just play stupid lmao. Tifa isn't dumb, she knows Johnny has feelings for her but she just smiles and deflects whenever he brings it up. She never really turns him down but she doesn't encourage his delusions, either.

Cloud is kinda similar with Aerith. He's not stupid, he knows when she's flirting with him, he knows what she wants from him but he doesn't reciprocate those feelings and so he just kinda twiddles his thumbs about it. She confesses to him 2x in Rebirth and he's just kinda like "... Okay..." both times as if he's avoiding having to reject her directly because he doesn't want to hurt her feelings.

Even so, he does tell her that he's 1) Not a romantic and 2) Doesn't want her to view their outing as a romantic date, so Aerith also can't say that she doesn't know how he feels. He might be avoiding conflict but he's not leading her on, either.

 

[Someonesbunny]

Shipping and canon are two totally separate things. Regardless of what is established canon, people can ship and enjoy shipping, reinterpreting different scenes, imagining things turning out differently, cute fanarts and fanfictions and all that jazz too. Just because CA is not the canon relationship being established for either Aerith or Cloud, doesn't necessarily mean one cannot enjoy the idea of it. It's a work of fiction, after all.

This is a good point - the LTD has always been about the question of canonicity, not the question of whether or not a pairing had any romantic potential. The question is often "Who Does Cloud Love," but I'm sure has had its own permutations as time went on. The answer appears to have always been always been Tifa, both strictly in the narrative of the OG and later in the wider compilation as well as supplemental materials.

On the nature of the debate as it is currently happening, I think that the constant need to reinterpret scenes that are essentially easy enough to read on a surface level are what becomes suspect - that a kiss is somehow less than what it is (or that a kiss is somehow less significant than holding someone's hand), that Cloud's agency is constantly in debate, and that Tifa's intentions are willfully interpreted in the poorest possible light. I'm sure there are CTs who want to aim for the "CA is purely platonic" argument given some of what we've seen in Rebirth, but I don't think that's entirely accurate either.

What I will say about the romantic tension that exists in the CA dynamic is simply that is correctly attributed to the tragic nature of the relationship, however, I think that the tragedy is wrongly attributed to Cloud's experience of it since most of the conflict comes from Aerith's end since the stakes are much more heavily on her side of this dynamic. Her internal conflict comes to the forefront, not Cloud's: she must see Cloud for who he really is and not who he reminds her of (which is impossible at the point in time that she realizes this) and her desire to move on with her life must pull greater weight than the fact that her past also remains unresolved. And then she dies without closure on either of these fronts.

Additional point to add, not to take away from Cloud's experience of death and guilt (especially as we see it in ACC), but I find that a lot of CA shippers seem to treat Aerith's death as happening to Cloud, which feels, honestly, quite terrible. The retelling of Aerith's tragedy as wholly revolving around Cloud because of their "love that could never be" makes the whole dynamic seem one-dimensional, trite, and sentimental.

 

[Eerie]

It was the same with Hollow when Remake came out. A lot of people were shouting to the heavens that it was about Cloud and Aerith, and insinuated you were unintelligent if you thought it could be about not only Aerith, but Zack, Tifa, and his own lost identity.

It played in the Sector 5 slums. It also plays in the wasteland around Midgar in Rebirth, and that's where Zack died. I agree with you that NPTK is not just about Cloud.

Hollow is pretty much about Zack and Cloud's loss of identity. People were a bit too much attaching importance on seemingly romantic lyrics. The reason why it plays in sector 5 is because Aerith too, has lost Zack. In fact, Zack is their biggest link, they connect because both have lost him.

The story just doesn’t work in its current state if he ends up choosing Aerith. Which is fine… they just need to change a ton like I said.

I have said it here, but the story does not work if Cloud falls in love with Aerith. He's always been a man of ONE woman, who is Tifa. There was zero need to create Tifa if the devs have wanted a love story between Cloud and Aerith; but they gave the overarching plot to Aerith, and the intimate plot to Tifa. You can't give Aerith anything that remotely is linked to her helping him find back his true self or getting Cloud's love. Those are exclusively Tifa's. This is why Cloud wants to become a special someone for Tifa.

“He is dense, he doesn’t realize her love.” Perhaps this is the most reasonable one but it’s still a bit flimsy.

It's absolutely not reasonable, she basically confessed to him TWICE and he was embarrassed and called her weird on the last confession. He knew perfectly. Tifa went in MORE roundabout ways about it in her date and he answered DIRECTLY. Why? Because he loves Tifa, she's the woman he's always loved and at the lightest cue he jumped in. That guy has rizz, look at his determined face when he hugs her lmao. He's already been stopped once, he's not about to let that chance go.

 

[GamerSkull]

In Before Crisis, if Cloud gets KO'd, he apologizes about not fulfilling the promise (He also goes into a fugue state and becomes SOLDIER level scary without any treatment during the same chapter) so it's a thing the creators have never let up on.


I do think his fractured Psyche might not allow itself to process why she likes him because that invites comaprisons to how Zack died and that invites the pain. We do know he can remember Zack, he just has to rewrite his recollections and making the connections also invites the hurty.

He's also not interested in pursuing Aerith because he has Tifa.

I have said it many times, probably will say it many more. Cloud finding Aerith attractive is not surpising. That does not automatically mean he definitely wants to pursue her.

Yeah, that’s fair enough and yeah, I guess I agree.

His reaction to Aerith in Wall Market doesn’t necessarily mean anything. If I see Scarlet Johansson on TV wearing a pretty dress, I might go “wow, she looks beautiful.” But I’d still be devoted to my girlfriend regardless.

 

[AncientGrimoire]

Just leaving this here. I hope Part 3 adapts this sequence properly and it’s not just locked away in a grindy gacha game cause this scene is too important.

 

[starcape91]

Just leaving this here. I hope Part 3 adapts this sequence properly and it’s not just locked away in a grindy gacha game cause this scene is too important.

They could definitely add this in when showing how Tifa found Cloud at the train station.

 

[Ryushikaze]

This is a good point - the LTD has always been about the question of canonicity, not the question of whether or not a pairing had any romantic potential. The question is often "Who Does Cloud Love," but I'm sure has had its own permutations as time went on. The answer appears to have always been always been Tifa, both strictly in the narrative of the OG and later in the wider compilation as well as supplemental materials.

On the nature of the debate as it is currently happening, I think that the constant need to reinterpret scenes that are essentially easy enough to read on a surface level are what becomes suspect - that a kiss is somehow less than what it is (or that a kiss is somehow less significant than holding someone's hand), that Cloud's agency is constantly in debate, and that Tifa's intentions are willfully interpreted in the poorest possible light. I'm sure there are CTs who want to aim for the "CA is purely platonic" argument given some of what we've seen in Rebirth, but I don't think that's entirely accurate either.

What I will say about the romantic tension that exists in the CA dynamic is simply that is correctly attributed to the tragic nature of the relationship, however, I think that the tragedy is wrongly attributed to Cloud's experience of it since most of the conflict comes from Aerith's end since the stakes are much more heavily on her side of this dynamic. Her internal conflict comes to the forefront, not Cloud's: she must see Cloud for who he really is and not who he reminds her of (which is impossible at the point in time that she realizes this) and her desire to move on with her life must pull greater weight than the fact that her past also remains unresolved. And then she dies without closure on either of these fronts.

Additional point to add, not to take away from Cloud's experience of death and guilt (especially as we see it in ACC), but I find that a lot of CA shippers seem to treat Aerith's death as happening to Cloud, which feels, honestly, quite terrible. The retelling of Aerith's tragedy as wholly revolving around Cloud because of their "love that could never be" makes the whole dynamic seem one-dimensional, trite, and sentimental.

It does "happen to cloud" though less so in rebirth, but it "happens" to everyone else in the party too. Everyone is affected by it. Aerith is the most affected, being dead, of course, though typically, even in cases where there is an afterlife, the dead fair better with being dead than the living do with the loss of the deceased.

Also I fucking hate that a single fucking line in a single fucking commercial from nearly 30 years ago is still how people see the course of the narrative.

 

[JaeKony]

There's always a point to shipping regardless of canon status, I think CA shippers just want their ship to be endgame and that's understandable.

No promises to keep is very complicated for me, personally, because I don't interpret it as being just about Cloud. The song is a journey and Aerith cries at the end of it, which is strange because if it was about Cloud why is she crying? He's literally right there watching her, but she ends the song looking out into the crowd as if searching for someone that's not there.

She also writes the song after Tifa tells her that Cloud has remembered Zack after all and they were actually friends in the end. I think it does a disservice to say NPTK is just about Cloud as much as it's a disservice to day its just about Zack. In fact, the song is really similar in feeling to her farewell monologue from the FF 30th anniversary exhibition in 2018.

"I hate the sky, it carries away everyone I Iove.
Stamp… Stamp! Guess, you’re gone too.
‘With a new love, you’ll forget the old one.’ I’ve heard this story before, but… is that really so? Is it okay if my heart hurts?
This is a strange place. Flowers bloom all year long. The seasons never change–my feelings never change. I’m stuck.
Sometimes I see someone who has the same eyes. Same as you, I mean. And I wonder, should I ask: do you know him? do you know where he is? But I never do.
I know goodbye will be hard. But when I think of meeting someone new, I still get so excited. It’s cruel.
Things won’t last forever. Sure, it’s lonely. It’s sad. But I can say "bye” with a smile, right?
That’s it. I give up! I can’t stop thinking of you. Ugh, I can’t stand this!
Helloooo~ Wake up. It’s almost morning.
Don’t step on the flowers!
You came. Thank you, I’m glad. But you’re already….
You’re so far now. I’m so far from you. Oh, I’m rising. The sky is carrying me away. I can see you, you’re crying. Don’t cry, you’ll make it rain."

Personally, I don't think we can look at this monologue and say it's just about Zack, the same way we can't look at NPTK and say it's just about Cloud. These are Aerith's canonical feelings for both men and no matter how we slice it, Aerith's feelings for Cloud cannot exist without coinciding with her feelings for Zack--even in the OG.

But that doesn't mean people can't ship them, they just have to be realistic about the kind of content they're getting. As Aerith plainly says in her monologue, she's not able to get over Zack even though the thought of meeting someone new/falling in love with someone new excites her. The idea excites her but she never truly falls and as she says in her own monologue, she gives up on trying to replace him even though it frustrates her that she can't.

What a great read. Speak your truth! @Rin

 

[GamerSkull]

It does "happen to cloud" though less so in rebirth, but it "happens" to everyone else in the party too. Everyone is affected by it. Aerith is the most affected, being dead, of course, though typically, even in cases where there is an afterlife, the dead fair better with being dead than the living do with the loss of the deceased.

Also I fucking hate that a single fucking line in a single fucking commercial from nearly 30 years ago is still how people see the course of the narrative.

I think the best way to describe Cloud’s relationships is that one is romanticized while the other is a lot more grounded.

Now the latter may have started because the two participants in question romanticized each other but it quickly becomes a pretty realistic type of relationship, especially by Advent Children.

The one between Cloud and Aerith remains romanticized all the way until her death. In fact, Aerith is romanticizing Cloud based on her past experience with someone just like him.

Perhaps that it’s why I see that relationship as more of a red herring.

 

[Someonesbunny]

Also I fucking hate that a single fucking line in a single fucking commercial from nearly 30 years ago is still how people see the course of the narrative.

The clip from that NA ad continues to float around, literally some revenant come to haunt us.

I saw it again a few days ago lol.

 

[starcape91]

In Before Crisis, if Cloud gets KO'd, he apologizes about not fulfilling the promise (He also goes into a fugue state and becomes SOLDIER level scary without any treatment during the same chapter) so it's a thing the creators have never let up on.

Is this referring to how he is able to pick up the Buster sword, stab Sephiroth, and then be able to not only take the stab from Sephiroth but pull himself along the sword and toss Sephiroth into the Lifestream? All as a normal “weak” human? Because I freaking love that part.

 

[Maidenofwar]

Here is some of what Nobuo Uematsu said about NPTK

“As depicted in the song ‘Aerith’s Theme,’ Aerith has had a bit of an ill-fated and ephemeral impression within me. I understood from the beginning that this song is also related to Aerith, but the poignant melody from ‘Aerith’s Theme’ does not appear in this song. I wanted to depict the opposite of this, the strength at her core, hidden within Aerith’s heart. As I listened to the recording over and over again once it was finished, Aerith, who until then was a resident of a fantasy world, now began to feel like a real human being in the flesh. Loren Allred’s vocals, sometimes ephemeral and other times passionate and powerful, surely give life to the existence of Aerith. It has been a while since I’ve written a ballad that feels uniquely my own, and I’m happy to have done so. Thank you, Aerith.”

It's not meant to be sad song/music like Aerith's theme.

 

[Rin]

Here is some of what Nobuo Uematsu said about NPTK

“As depicted in the song ‘Aerith’s Theme,’ Aerith has had a bit of an ill-fated and ephemeral impression within me. I understood from the beginning that this song is also related to Aerith, but the poignant melody from ‘Aerith’s Theme’ does not appear in this song. I wanted to depict the opposite of this, the strength at her core, hidden within Aerith’s heart. As I listened to the recording over and over again once it was finished, Aerith, who until then was a resident of a fantasy world, now began to feel like a real human being in the flesh. Loren Allred’s vocals, sometimes ephemeral and other times passionate and powerful, surely give life to the existence of Aerith. It has been a while since I’ve written a ballad that feels uniquely my own, and I’m happy to have done so. Thank you, Aerith.”

It's not meant to be sad song/music like Aerith's theme.

Was anyone saying that NPTK is a sad song though? Just curious, I'm not sure if I missed that. She cries at the end of performing it but that doesn't necessarily mean it's sad, just that she's feeling a lot of emotions and looking out into the crowd for someone who isn't there.
Also, the song definitely isn't just romantic in nature because we see Biggs, Jesse, and Wedge's spirits come to say goodbye as she's performing it as well. Which was really interesting and that's why I don't want to contribute the song to any one particular relationship.

 

[starcape91]

Was anyone saying that NPTK is a sad song though? Just curious, I'm not sure if I missed that. She cries at the end of performing it but that doesn't necessarily mean it's sad, just that she's feeling a lot of emotions and looking out into the crowd for someone who isn't there.
Also, the song definitely isn't just romantic in nature because we see Biggs, Jesse, and Wedge's spirits come to say goodbye as she's performing it as well. Which was really interesting and that's why I don't want to contribute the song to any one particular relationship.

I think a lot of it has to do with the memories of those we lose living on inside of us. While it’s sad that they’re no longer with us, it’s a wonderful thing to know they’re never truly gone.

 

[GamerSkull]

I think a lot of it has to do with the memories of those we lose living on inside of us. While it’s sad that they’re no longer with us, it’s a wonderful thing to know they’re never truly gone.

Which is one of the primary themes of FFVII so it fits.

 

[AncientGrimoire]

NPTK to me symbolises hope, and one of the key recurring themes of FFVII, reunion.

It’s also a song about saying goodbye, but with the hope that one day, someday, you’ll meet again with the one(s) you love.

Because it plays during the end credits, much like Hollow, I believe it also is meant to in essence be emblematic of the story told thus far as a whole.

While yes they are also specifically character themes, Cloud and Aerith’s respectively, I saw it as limiting to the lyrical quality of both songs and the characters themselves, to only see it as a song about Cloud’s feelings for Aerith, and Aerith’s feelings for Cloud.

Much like said feelings for one another, there’s more to them and more to the core of their characters and I believe the songs effectively capture that beautifully.

 

[starcape91]

I wonder what the theme song for the third game will be.

 

[Rin]

I think a lot of it has to do with the memories of those we lose living on inside of us. While it’s sad that they’re no longer with us, it’s a wonderful thing to know they’re never truly gone.

Yeah, I agree. The whole song is about how she meets someone who reminds her of someone else which brings her back to reality and makes her realize how much time has passed since she last saw the person she's been reminded of. It doesn't necessarily need to be romantic but it doesn't have to be platonic either.

It could be that she meets Cloud who reminds her of Zack and she's forced to reconcile w/ the fact that Zack has been gone for 5 years. But it could also be that she meets Cloud who reminds her of Zack and through Cloud she meets Tifa who lost her mother at a young age which then reminds Aerith of losing Ifalna, too. And all these relationships serve as reminders for the ones she's lost, so it's a bit bittersweet but its also a happy thing too because she's making new memories with new loved ones and one day she'll be reunited with the people she lost.

 

[Rin]

I wonder what the theme song for the third game will be.

Something from Tifa's POV since they keep alluding to that in-game and they need to follow through lmao

 

[GamerSkull]

Perhaps the song can have some relation to the Lifestream sequence?

 

[starcape91]

Something from Tifa's POV since they keep alluding to that in-game and they need to follow through lmao

Oh you're right. I heard someone say that after the play Cloud wants to see her "on the stage" next time or something? Hint hint, wink wink.