SPOILERS LTD Remake — It's like New Coke except ... no, it's exactly like New Coke

[eleamaya]

Is anyone else really confused by the creators use of NPTK in this game? It almost feels like in direct contrast to what is actually playing out on screen before our eyes. There's a new intervie with Nobuo Uematsu and Loren Allred

View attachment 14853

Now I actually think it's a great song, and Loren Allred smashes it.. but i'm a little confused about the way they chose to incorporate it?
Up until Aerith writes the song are we truly supposed to believe that Cloud and Aerith have the kind of relationship the songs lyrics would entail?

1 - She doesn't have her memories so she has no idea what's going to happen in the final chapters
2 - "Cloud" is right there with her
3 - Up to this point they've had interactions for sure but again is Cloud even that bothered half the time?
4 - "Our Place" of which Cloud and Aerith have been there once I believe, how did it go from Zack and Aeriths place to Cloud and Aeriths place all of a sudden
5 - She cries at the end as if knowing is something is going to happen or she's remembering something painful

Now up until this point we've had some Clerith stuff for sure, but there's also been a lot of stuff between CT, and ZA like Aerith even confirming she doesn't have a reason to not love Zack, but also feeling his hand in the lifestream, a lot of imagery between them both and us seeing Zack do everything he can for Aerith in the other "world" So is it any wonder I'm seeing neutral streamers on twitch saying "Oh she's singing about Zack"

Like up the point of the song it doesn't feel earned at all? Again my issue isn't with the song itself but how they've put it into the game doesn't feel like it fits with the narrative presented before it, and it's inconsistent with Aerith's character after it.

Because here's the kicker, considering what these lyrics seem to be saying, that she's madly in love with Cloud and wants to be with him forever or whatever, why then in a chapter or two after this she only says she likes Cloud but doesn't even know what kind of like, how is that consistent with the song at all? If she loves him and wants to be with him that much why not just say you love him instead of like like.

I'm just very confused by how they've chosen to incorporate it. It being the end credits song I think works more especially if abouts Aerith expressing herself, I just don't think it works in the actual game at the time and place they've chosen to do it, if its purely about Cloud.

It matches Loveless. Alphred talk about "even if you dont promise to wait, I'll come knowing you're here". No promise. So it can be the song about Alphred & Rosa too as Loveless theatre soundtrack whoever Rosa is, Aerith or Tifa (Idk if I should count Yuffie lol). Also, the verse about meeting in the street matches with Cloud & Aerith's first meeting in Loveless avenue.

Tbh I prefer that street to be special place for both of them as it's described, not the church where Zack always come home to. The song instrumental is played on Sector 5 dream date, not in the church where using "Aerith's Theme" again. Though the last verse of the full song in the credit roll (not Loveless ver.) to me sounds like about them being separated again in the street and she return to be lonely that she hopes he find her there. So this is probably unrequited / unattainable love song, just like "Never Enough" in The Greatest Showman representing Jenny's feelings for PT Barnum, the guy who marries his childhood friends. Again, Nomura blatantly said the moment Jenny singing it is what inspired him to create Aerith's version

 

[aeriths]

Is anyone else really confused by the creators use of NPTK in this game? It almost feels like in direct contrast to what is actually playing out on screen before our eyes. There's a new intervie with Nobuo Uematsu and Loren Allred

View attachment 14853

Now I actually think it's a great song, and Loren Allred smashes it.. but i'm a little confused about the way they chose to incorporate it?
Up until Aerith writes the song are we truly supposed to believe that Cloud and Aerith have the kind of relationship the songs lyrics would entail?

1 - She doesn't have her memories so she has no idea what's going to happen in the final chapters
2 - "Cloud" is right there with her
3 - Up to this point they've had interactions for sure but again is Cloud even that bothered half the time?
4 - "Our Place" of which Cloud and Aerith have been there once I believe, how did it go from Zack and Aeriths place to Cloud and Aeriths place all of a sudden
5 - She cries at the end as if knowing is something is going to happen or she's remembering something painful

Now up until this point we've had some Clerith stuff for sure, but there's also been a lot of stuff between CT, and ZA like Aerith even confirming she doesn't have a reason to not love Zack, but also feeling his hand in the lifestream, a lot of imagery between them both and us seeing Zack do everything he can for Aerith in the other "world" So is it any wonder I'm seeing neutral streamers on twitch saying "Oh she's singing about Zack"

Like up the point of the song it doesn't feel earned at all? Again my issue isn't with the song itself but how they've put it into the game doesn't feel like it fits with the narrative presented before it, and it's inconsistent with Aerith's character after it.

Because here's the kicker, considering what these lyrics seem to be saying, that she's madly in love with Cloud and wants to be with him forever or whatever, why then in a chapter or two after this she only says she likes Cloud but doesn't even know what kind of like, how is that consistent with the song at all? If she loves him and wants to be with him that much why not just say you love him instead of like like.

I'm just very confused by how they've chosen to incorporate it. It being the end credits song I think works more especially if abouts Aerith expressing herself, I just don't think it works in the actual game at the time and place they've chosen to do it, if its purely about Cloud.

The only way it makes sense is if it’s an unrequited love song, but even then their relationship was not the main focus of this game at all.

To me it was obvious it was about Cloud so I anticipated Rebirth to focus heavily on their relationship in a more intimate sense but then it just…didn’t? So they’ve kind of lost me and what they wanted to do with Aerith’s character which is a shame because she’s always been a favorite.

 

[insanehobbit]

Since I'm in my hater era, lol, I still cannot get over how fucking crazy it is that they turned the Sleeping Forest scene -- which was a beautiful, bittersweet farewell in the OG -- into a vehicle for Aerith to get her MacGuffin back from Cloud?

And this retroactively makes the very little development she had in the early chapters of Rebirth look even worse. All she had was basically "The Whispers took my memories of the future away, now my White Materia is empty," which I initially thought was a weird justification for why she's acting more like OG Aerith, but now it's that plus a weird justification for her (or some version of her) to take Cloud on a dream date to swap out her White Materias? So her entire character in this game basically boils down to being a MacGuffin machine and the object of desire for Zack? Did her endgame beget her wonky writing at the beginning or vice-versa or is this just an ouroboros of bad writing begetting bad writing? lmao

Which isn't even getting into her writing for the rest of the game. Cosmo Canyon was very late, but I was shocked by how little development she got even there. It basically boiled down to her loneliness from being the last of her kind but she's happy for the friends she made along the way, which only highlighted how poorly said friendships were developed.

It made sense why Tifa and Cloud would be the ones who had the biggest reactions to the Barret/Dyne story, but how the hell was Yuffie, someone who literally joined the party 5 minutes ago, more personally invested in this than Aerith? Red XIII is Aerith's closest relationship outside of Cloud and Tifa, but her reaction to his story with Seto is basically the same as the rest of the party.

And then there's fucking Nibelheim. Literally one chapter after her big speech about how she values her friendships. I know this is optional/missable, but it is fucking insane that in the place of her two closest friends' greatest trauma, the game has her talk about how jealous/almost angry she is about their childhood friendship. (I am praying this is another mistranslation but I have the feeling it's not). I get that she is lonely, that she's coping over Zack, but my god, there's a time and place. This is especially egregious because of how much it contrasts with Barret's optional/missable dialogue -- he basically tells Cloud that he's there for him and Tifa and ready to leave if they need to.

Until the very end of the game, she was the one character where I literally had no idea what version of her we'd get everytime she opened her mouth. How the hell did this team fall ass backwards into making Tifa one of the best-written characters in video game history while fumbling so fucking hard with the game's other heroine? In what is supposed to be her game?? I've always been a Tifa girl at heart who only started truly appreciating Aerith since Remake, and I'm furious. I can't imagine how I'd be feeling if I'd been an Aerith fan since the OG.

 

[Stiggie]

Cloud and Tifa’s relationship is what propels things on an emotional and wider narrative level more than Aerith does,

Yeah, Tifas role has always been underplayed by fans compared to Aeriths but that has always been weird to me. While I think Aerith didn't have enough prominence in the early part of Rebirth I do actually think that pretty much hits the nail on the head in regards to the OG. She honestly isn't as relevant as Tifa when it comes to what actually matters, the human heart in conflict with itself. Her importance is to the boring external thread of Sephiroth summoning Meteor.
And here is the thing, at some point during Rebirth I kinda forgot about Sephiroth and meteor as well. At one point I had to remind myself why we were travelling because it feels like the reason we're travelling is to investigate Clouds weird behavior. In the OG that happens in the background but in rebirth that is the main topic, "what happened with Cloud and Zack", with meteor almost being a side story. But the story of Cloud is the story of Tifa, the story of Zack is the story of Nibelheim which is the story of Cloud and Tifa.
By changing the remake from a remake to a weird story about destiny the developers have switched focus to a much more internally driven story, but any internally driven story for Cloud will HEAVILLY rely on Tifa. Which means that Aerith has less to do, and when you then force her into internal storytelling by giving her these deep spiritual scenes it doesn't work, because it feels like it came from nothing and it clashes with what the game has been constantly showing us, which is that Tifa is the emotional core of Clouds story. So Aerith comes off as a second rate Tifa rather than a first rate Aerith.

In some weird twist of irony, had remake been about saving the world from meteor, rather than saving Aerith from destiny, then Aerith would have had a more important and bigger role to play.

This is mitigated a bit by 8 and 9 being very long chapters to make up for the fact she is absent for 4 entire chapters after her introduction in 2

To be fair, those chapters are Cloud and Aerith together by themselves, something Tifa barely gets in remake, so they count for a lot.

The main problem for CA, I think, is that Cloud's arc both in the OG and Rebirth has very little to do with Aerith's. They become friends fast, sure, but her greatest impact on him is to die and give him a big failure feeling. Cloud's arc has always been intertwined with Tifa's arc,

Yep, Tifa has always been unfairly judged because of this, Rebirth didn't give Tifa anything new in that regard though, it literally just showed what Tifa already was in the OG. It's just that with better graphics and more attention we get to see the individual roles Tifa and Cloud play in their shared story, where in the OG a lot of people just saw their story as a blob. Which means that in the OG people thought she was an unimportant side-character leeching off Clouds story, and here the exact same story makes her feel like equal in importance to the main character. It's amazing what difference a slight difference in presentation makes.

how could she not see and understand that the way Cloud treats Tifa is the way Zack treated her and the very reason why she is envious of their bond?

I really like how you put that, I've thought it myself but I've never quite been able to put it into words.

The natural end of act two / "dark night of the soul" moment for both of these stories takes place at the Northern Crater. Sephiroth summons Meteor, putting a literal ticking clock on the planet's destruction, and Cloud's psyche completely shatters. This is the lowest point possible for Cloud, our party, the entire world -- the real Empire Strikes Back moment, you can only go up from here.

Agreed, and this is something else I've thought about. But I do kinda get why they didn't end it at north krater. While I think that for part 2 that would be perfect for exactly the reasons you mentioned. I think the problem is that really, there isn't a whole lot that needs to be done post mind-break, in the OG at least. I don't know if the choice to end it with Aeriths death was done because they just wanted to end it there (probably). But I definitely see the argument that ending it at north krater would have been tricky.

Although if I am being honest, knowing how remake ended I do 100% believe that SE has no respect for its customers and thinks that every game has to end with a huge cataclysmic end of times boss fight. They literally think that ending a game with a mournful sea burial would be too sophisticated for their audience.

o me it was obvious it was about Cloud so I anticipated Rebirth to focus heavily on their relationship in a more intimate sense but then it just…didn’t? So they’ve kind of lost me and what they wanted to do with Aerith’s character which is a shame because she’s always been a favorite

I honestly thought it was obviously about Zack. She's crying, I have no idea why she'd do that if it were about Cloud. And it's about someone desperately trying to get back to her, which is literally what Zack has been doing for the past god knows how many years and games.

 

[GamerSkull]

Honestly, if they do another affinity system in the next game. I could see them doing hangout stuff on the Highwind. Like helping Cid do maintainance or something.

And then just leave the THE BIG Highwind scene non-optional.

 

[Axiom]

Ngl, I find the obsession over song lyrics the weirdest thing about the LTD. Like the debates about what Remake's OST was about is borderline unhinged. Nobody is even singing this song in game. It could....just be a song.

The song Aerith sings is different, and I dont know whether she's singing about Zack or Cloud. If it's about Cloud, then Tifa's date is actually brutal. Cuz Cloud starts holding Tifa's hand right after Aerith sings "Take my hand and believe we can be together evermore". Cloud took Aerith's love song to him as instructions to woo Tifa.

 

[thetriplerhyme]

It's extremely frustrating that we never get Aerith's own POV on her motivations in what is supposed to be her game (especially when we get tremendous insight into Tifa's motivations through her own POV in Ch. 9). Instead of putting us in her shoes as she leaves the party (and as she goes to what she probably realizes is her death?) and letting us sit with those conflicted feelings, we see everything through the eyes of an extremely unreliable narrator just so the ending can be the kind of mindfuck that invites debate rather than a fitting, bittersweet sendoff for her character.

- wow @insanehobbit i'm a fan of your writing you indeed have a different ways to use words soo deep critical thinking.

But they have handled Aerith very inconsistently here as you said and all I can hope for is that it pays off in Part 3.

- this and insanehobbit comments its indeed inconsistent I'm not sure if this is how she is how originally written but Remake Aerith seems to be a different version that Rebirth. Maybe well hear more on Ultimania or part 3? but right now it seems to me that they seem to have a plan for Aerith in Remake but gone soo badly they scratched it and repressed her back to OG Aerith in Rebirth.

As someone who loves Tifa I’m not complaining she isn’t just in the background in Rebirth like she kind of was in the original at this point in the story, but I could have done with Aerith actually be given the attention she should have had in this part as well. I know the balance to these things is always tricky, so I too would be interested to see how part 3 handles this.

- I agree as well it seems most characters has good development except for one and she's supposed to be the highlight on this game.

 

[starcape91]

It’s late and I had to stop for now, but I got to the Sephiroth vs Aerith and Cloud fight. Wasn’t properly equipped for any of the fights really, but somehow managed to make it to that one. Gonna have to start fresh tomorrow with better equipment.

The first thing Aerith says once the battle starts is pretty telling: “I saw what you did back there, Cloud. Thank you.” And he says “You can thank me later.” And she says “Right…” Cloud is pretty delusional right now. Pretty sure he thinks he deflected Sephiroth’s sword but instead was just holding his own sword in the air, resisting with all his might to not hurt her himself.

Obviously a part of him knows what actually happened because he’s holding her and yelling at Sephiroth, but he’s blocking it out the same way he blocked out when Aerith first said Zack’s name way back in the park in Remake.

Not sure how anyone didn’t cry or at least get emotional when the JENOVA battle started and the music shifted to Aerith’s theme. Probably the most beautiful rendition of her theme I’ve ever heard.

I have a bunch more thoughts, but I gotta sleep. I hope it’s okay if I share them here instead of the general spoiler thread. You guys are easier to talk to lol

 

[KindOfBlue]

I don’t think anybody will ever agree on what “canon” even means

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1768076166143807492

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1768077004790804551

 

[Rin]

This is the cutest thing I've ever seen .... I'm gonna explode

Spoiler

x.com

x.com

 

[luminous03]

This is the cutest thing I've ever seen .... I'm gonna explode

Spoiler

x.com

x.com

AAAAAAAAAAAAHHH, now i'm more frustrated that they didn't meet or even have a conversation together. Goddammit 3 or 4 years can't come any faster

 

[Rin]

AAAAAAAAAAAAHHH, now i'm more frustrated that they didn't meet or even have a conversation together. Goddammit 3 or 4 years can't come any faster

I'm ... FHFVDGHJGVFVJGG I need them back together immediately. I just came across a thread of all the ways they parallel each other in Rebirth and now I'm practically shaking with excitement... Can't believe SE is torturing us like this.

And speaking of songs, I didn't realize Zack quotes NPTK/makes reference to it like Cloud does with Hollow.

Spoiler

 

[luminous03]

O

I'm ... FHFVDGHJGVFVJGG I need them back together immediately. I just came across a thread of all the ways they parallel each other in Rebirth and now I'm practically shaking with excitement... Can't believe SE is torturing us like this.

And speaking of songs, I didn't realize Zack quotes NPTK/makes reference to it like Cloud does with Hollow.

Spoiler

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OKAY I AM DEAD NOW , if only i can enter in a slumber like vincet until the next part.


AND I SWEAR IF THEY DIDN'T REACH A CONCLUSION FOR BOTH OF THEM IN PART 3, WE RIOOOOOOT

 

[Graymouse]

I don’t think anybody will ever agree on what “canon” even means

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1768076166143807492

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1768077004790804551

What in the world?

I wonder how he will react if he sees Tifa's GS date.

Edited: To say, if you want to keep your sanity stay away from the comment section of that first tweet!


Have mercy!

 

[Empyrea]

What in the world?

I wonder how he will react if he sees Tifa's GS date.

Be in total denial or absolutely backpedal, probably.

The last I talked with someone who asserted Clerith is absolutely canon, they did both just at the very mention of the Lifestream sequence. And trying to reason with them over it was like talking to a brick wall.

...I will now admit that part of my ambivalence to OG!Aerith has definitely been affected by that.

 

[KindOfBlue]

That last tweet good lord.

If you paid literally any attention to any aspect of the main story it is genuinely told to you that the OPPOSITE of this is true.

And yes he is making that up.

By his very statement and definition he has made up a story where Rebirth apparently, in every aspect of its main story, tells you that Cloud and Aerith love each other.

This level of outright ignorance is astounding.

I don’t typically pay much mind to random takes online, but streamers and influencers have a considerable amount of pull within fanbases like this and people are sure to latch on to the word of their favorite content creators when they echo their own views

 

[Hix]

I'd argue Rebirth, in fact, is the first time in 27 years of Final Fantasy VII in which one can say without any discussion that Cloud romantically loves one of the girls (Tifa). It can no longer be denied. Since 1997 every single element has been debated ad nausea but for the first time we've had a pure, unambiguous show of romance from Cloud towards one, and only one, of the girls that cannot be handwaved, misinterpreted or headcanonned. Even the Highwind scene in OG has been twisted, but one cannot ignore that Cloud kissed Tifa.

There are sweet moments in Rebirth for CA, but they aren't any different from what we've seen in the past and, arguably, they show precisely why they will never be a couple. Cloud's feelings for Aerith have always been murky, yet here we have him call her nakama and seemingly ignore her romantic advances, if not get outright frustrated by them. Aerith's feelings for Cloud have seemed more clear cut, but cannot be viewed without the context of her relationship with Zack and it's clear by the end that she too knows she cannot get over him.

The devs have gone out of their way to make Tifa and Zack obstacles to CA ever happening, yet CT encounters no such narrative issues. CA has always fallen foul of occams razor in this way but by Rebirth it's more profound than ever and at least one can no longer claim Clerith alone is canon. One can say Cloud loves both Tifa and Aerith romantically - and I'd disagree - but after the kiss (in particular) Tifa can no longer be removed from the equation. Yes, The Lifestream, Under the Highwind, Advent Children etc should have already established that, but there's no misinterpreting a kiss. It's done.

I don’t typically pay much mind to random takes online, but streamers and influencers have a considerable amount of pull within fanbases like this and people are sure to latch on to the word of their favorite content creators when they echo their own views

In fairness, this guy is a fairly frequent collaborator with, and simp for, ARUUU. The kind of reach he has is limited to the sort of people for whom facts are merely bumps on the road to be avoided.

 

[LunarTarotGirl]

Cloud's not as an idiot as you guys make him sound to be. He knows -

Here is the thing though, I do want to address. I don't think he is an idiot but if we look at Ultimanias he is definitely described as oblivious to the fact both Tifa and Aerith have feelings for him in the OG date. So unless we are saying that here he has some extra knowledge and the Ultimania doesnt count bc it's different now. I would say that's still probably the case.

For example in the Costa Del Sol date he just saw it as a mission he wasn't thinking Aerith would see it as otherwise and he says she's being mean when she calls the date DOA (dead on arrival). She is literally dissing the date here the same he called cheap. No reason for him not to agree with her but he is like why are you being mean. Bc he doesnt understand her frustration. Then he will later agree to riding a chocobo w her musing on how illogical it is. Bc he just sees it as oh we're doing a mission together. Then later he finds out oh she loves Zack.

And that to me is the extra knowledge he has. Not that she likes HIM. I think basically finding out she loved Zack made it so he's not thinking oh she loves me instead I need to reject her. But oh she loves this guy I should support her.
And I think Aerith loves Zack is the only thing Cloud knows about Aerith's feelings.
Not that she has feelings for Cloud. And I think whenever she says stuff like I want to be with you now or I like you he sees it as confusing because in his head this girl is in love with Zack. And even then he was oblivious to her feelings about Zack at first too telling her to forget about that loser and seeing from her response it was the wrong thing to say.

Cloud no matter what Aerith does doesnt fully "get it" and he never actually gives her anything to go on other than we're friends. So she now knows where they stand. That's why him saying Of course let's hang out again upsets her enough to give up even when he doesn't say say of course we're friends. He is just stating facts. And probably very worried bc she is acting strange.

But he is not responding to her efforts at romance so rejection then isn't even needed here. She is seeing that no matter what he will never be what she wants him to even in her dream. And that's the same in Costa Del Sol she's having a feelings crisis while he's like let's get this mission over with okay. They are not on the same wave length. It's not him rejecting her it's her realizing he's not aware of her feelings bc he is not even thinking of her in that way to begin. And that she isnt sure of hers so she is conflicted and questioning and basically gives up.

And he treats her as friend and says so because she is his friend. But that doesn't indicate he actually knew how she felt until maybe the scene where she actually confesses and even then his response tells me he still is like huh that's really strange for Aerith to say is she ok. He's not calling her weird for confessing. He is saying she is acting weird. Because he doesn't really get why she would confess to him. We're friends and doesnt she love Zack? Is everything ok?

And I think this matches up with the original story too. And it matches with her resolution and monologue she realizes for her self she has been looking for her moments with Zack in him and that makes her conflicted.

Cloud doesnt do much else except be a supportive friend. And she is the one figuring everything out while he isn't clued in. He doesn't need to be clued in however for HER to resolve her feelings and she realizes she doesnt know her feelings but the time spent with him is enough. So now she has her answer.

And I don't see it as oh he had a chance to kiss Aerith. I don't think he would have personally kissed her in any case even if we say he liked her bc even if he did want to Aerith loves Zack and he'd probably not feel he should. And in the story we're playing he loves Tifa so there is no motive to kiss another girl anyway because that's where his feelings lie. I also see it. The devs adding this knowledge of Zack made it so it's clear and we can't say oh if I don't get the Tifa kiss it's optional so he loves Aerith. Bc it's not optional also that he knows Aerith loved Zack basically bringing down any motivation for him to pursue Aerith even if we think he likes her. So basically stopping that argument before it happens.

For Tifa's date Cloud is less clueless because they have build up. They almost kiss in Gongaga no matter oblivious he may have been before Gongaga he would clue in definitely at the fact that there is some tension there that wasn't there before. Then in the GC date she brings it up and he acts on it. It's natural buildup. Just like addition of knowledge of Zack assured we can't assume he would optionally pursue Aerith this scene builds things up with Tifa so being oblivious wouldn't matter he'd clue in faster and he'd respond this time.

So basically I think Cloud being oblivious as he is canonically stated to be doesn't contradict the narrative. In fact it also rather explains it and I think all these things still flow story wise even if Cloud is oblivious to Aerith's feelings for him. Being oblivious doesn't mean he is not emotionally intelligent or is stupid just that he isn't thinking that way. He probably doesn't look at a woman like Aerith who is also always teasing and masking her feelings and think oh so she wants me. Especially when he remembered Zack and sees how she talks about him. But he is definitely considerate so he comforts her not really understanding what her deal is.

 

[Eerie]

@LunarTarotGirl Thank you for your answer... and yeah now I can see it. I understand and I think you're right on the nose with this. It may be that Cloud is oblivious to Aerith's feelings because he knows about her feelings for Zack and since she's just a friend, he doesn't get it. That would explain why he remembers Zack and his love for Aerith yeah.

 

[shady]

Here is the thing though, I do want to address. I don't think he is an idiot but if we look at Ultimanias he is definitely described as oblivious to the fact both Tifa and Aerith have feelings for him in the OG date. So unless we are saying that here he has some extra knowledge and the Ultimania doesnt count bc it's different now. I would say that's still probably the case.

For example in the Costa Del Sol date he just saw it as a mission he wasn't thinking Aerith would see it as otherwise and he says she's being mean when she calls the date DOA (dead on arrival). She is literally dissing the date here the same he called cheap. No reason for him not to agree with her but he is like why are you being mean. Bc he doesnt understand her frustration. Then he will later agree to riding a chocobo w her musing on how illogical it is. Bc he just sees it as oh we're doing a mission together. Then later he finds out oh she loves Zack.

And that to me is the extra knowledge he has. Not that she likes HIM. I think basically finding out she loved Zack made it so he's not thinking oh she loves me instead I need to reject her. But oh she loves this guy I should support her.
And I think Aerith loves Zack is the only thing Cloud knows about Aerith's feelings.
Not that she has feelings for Cloud. And I think whenever she says stuff like I want to be with you now or I like you he sees it as confusing because in his head this girl is in love with Zack. And even then he was oblivious to her feelings about Zack at first too telling her to forget about that loser and seeing from her response it was the wrong thing to say.

Cloud no matter what Aerith does doesnt fully "get it" and he never actually gives her anything to go on other than we're friends. So she now knows where they stand. That's why him saying Of course let's hang out again upsets her enough to give up even when he doesn't say say of course we're friends. He is just stating facts. And probably very worried bc she is acting strange.

But he is not responding to her efforts at romance so rejection then isn't even needed here. She is seeing that no matter what he will never be what she wants him to even in her dream. And that's the same in Costa Del Sol she's having a feelings crisis while he's like let's get this mission over with okay. They are not on the same wave length. It's not him rejecting her it's her realizing he's not aware of her feelings bc he is not even thinking of her in that way to begin. And that she isnt sure of hers so she is conflicted and questioning and basically gives up.

And he treats her as friend and says so because she is his friend. But that doesn't indicate he actually knew how she felt until maybe the scene where she actually confesses and even then his response tells me he still is like huh that's really strange for Aerith to say is she ok. He's not calling her weird for confessing. He is saying she is acting weird. Because he doesn't really get why she would confess to him. We're friends and doesnt she love Zack? Is everything ok?

And I think this matches up with the original story too. And it matches with her resolution and monologue she realizes for her self she has been looking for her moments with Zack in him and that makes her conflicted.

Cloud doesnt do much else except be a supportive friend. And she is the one figuring everything out while he isn't clued in. He doesn't need to be clued in however for HER to resolve her feelings and she realizes she doesnt know her feelings but the time spent with him is enough. So now she has her answer.

And I don't see it as oh he had a chance to kiss Aerith. I don't think he would have personally kissed her in any case even if we say he liked her bc even if he did want to Aerith loves Zack and he'd probably not feel he should. And in the story we're playing he loves Tifa so there is no motive to kiss another girl anyway because that's where his feelings lie. I also see it. The devs adding this knowledge of Zack made it so it's clear and we can't say oh if I don't get the Tifa kiss it's optional so he loves Aerith. Bc it's not optional also that he knows Aerith loved Zack basically bringing down any motivation for him to pursue Aerith even if we think he likes her. So basically stopping that argument before it happens.

For Tifa's date Cloud is less clueless because they have build up. They almost kiss in Gongaga no matter oblivious he may have been before Gongaga he would clue in definitely at the fact that there is some tension there that wasn't there before. Then in the GC date she brings it up and he acts on it. It's natural buildup. Just like addition of knowledge of Zack assured we can't assume he would optionally pursue Aerith this scene builds things up with Tifa so being oblivious wouldn't matter he'd clue in faster and he'd respond this time.

So basically I think Cloud being oblivious as he is canonically stated to be doesn't contradict the narrative. In fact it also rather explains it and I think all these things still flow story wise even if Cloud is oblivious to Aerith's feelings for him. Being oblivious doesn't mean he is not emotionally intelligent or is stupid just that he isn't thinking that way. He probably doesn't look at a woman like Aerith who is also always teasing and masking her feelings and think oh so she wants me. Especially when he remembered Zack and sees how she talks about him. But he is definitely considerate so he comforts her not really understanding what her deal is.

Nice insight again. I’m curious (not necessarily asking you to make a prediction) but what would you like to see in P3 understanding whats happened in Rebirth and how highly likely it is she has a reunion with Zack—regardless of her feelings for Cloud— will be a rather awkward affair and if she is… well you know… it would be rather sad and depressing to watch Zack, who was looking after Aerith all game, just to watch her pine for Cloud. At the same time how can it just go back to the way it was? Like it’s all just pretty awkward now in my mind. Even though I also believe they’ve setup CT we don’t know how Cloud really feels now because he’s so messed up at the end and believes nothing is wrong, might he turn around and say oh actually now I realise I do have feelings for Aerith? But then he also kisses Tifa so.. I don’t know it’s all a bit messy currently and trying to articulate my thoughts doesn’t seem to be happening

 

[Hix]

Nice insight again. I’m curious (not necessarily asking you to make a prediction) but what would you like to see in P3 understanding whats happened in Rebirth and how highly likely it is she has a reunion with Zack—regardless of her feelings for Cloud— will be a rather awkward affair and if she is… well you know… it would be rather sad and depressing to watch Zack, who was looking after Aerith all game, just to watch her pine for Cloud. At the same time how can it just go back to the way it was? Like it’s all just pretty awkward now in my mind. Even though I also believe they’ve setup CT we don’t know how Cloud really feels now because he’s so messed up at the end and believes nothing is wrong, might he turn around and say oh actually now I realise I do have feelings for Aerith? But then he also kisses Tifa so.. I don’t know it’s all a bit messy currently and trying to articulate my thoughts doesn’t seem to be happening

I kinda see you're point, but I think the devs will make up the difference. It's important to remember everything is leading up to Advent Children, in which Zack and Aerith are together. That's going to necessitate a reunion and reconciliation, which I think in many ways they've set the foundations for in Rebirth.

Aerith had every opportunity to say she no longer loves Zack in Gongaga - she's talking to Cloud, who she is trying to woo (for lack of a better term), after all - but instead responds that maybe she still does and that he's never given her a reason not to keep doing so.

I find this line fascinating for a number of reasons. First, as I said, she says it to Cloud who has asked in earnest and it's clear it introduces a certain awkwardness, because of course, between the two. Second of all, it debunks the oft cited Clerith narrative that Aerith has moved on, no longer loves Zack and the 89th unrequired love letter she wrote him was a "break up" letter rather than simply an admission that she was unsure he was even getting the letters (indeed, Tseng wasn't delivering them).

Considering all this, "maybe" is actually a "yes". A denial would have been easy here. Aerith is hinted to be aware Zack is dead at the end of Crisis Core, but at the minimum he's been out of contact and out of her life for 5 years. But it's clear Aerith still does love Zack, it's been clear from the very start - she takes an instant interest in Cloud who falls into her life in the exact same way as Zack did and progressively tries to recapture the magic she felt with Zack right up until the Sector 5 date recreation at the end of the game. She's not over him, but she's confused about her feelings for Cloud.

Rebirth is the process of her working these things out. Part 3 will have that reunion and reconciliation, but I really don't see it as being as hard to do in a way that won't come across as awkward or forced as you might imagine. It's been telegraphed.

 

[faefolk]

Is anyone else really confused by the creators use of NPTK in this game? It almost feels like in direct contrast to what is actually playing out on screen before our eyes. There's a new intervie with Nobuo Uematsu and Loren Allred

View attachment 14853

Now I actually think it's a great song, and Loren Allred smashes it.. but i'm a little confused about the way they chose to incorporate it?
Up until Aerith writes the song are we truly supposed to believe that Cloud and Aerith have the kind of relationship the songs lyrics would entail?

1 - She doesn't have her memories so she has no idea what's going to happen in the final chapters
2 - "Cloud" is right there with her
3 - Up to this point they've had interactions for sure but again is Cloud even that bothered half the time?
4 - "Our Place" of which Cloud and Aerith have been there once I believe, how did it go from Zack and Aeriths place to Cloud and Aeriths place all of a sudden
5 - She cries at the end as if knowing is something is going to happen or she's remembering something painful

Now up until this point we've had some Clerith stuff for sure, but there's also been a lot of stuff between CT, and ZA like Aerith even confirming she doesn't have a reason to not love Zack, but also feeling his hand in the lifestream, a lot of imagery between them both and us seeing Zack do everything he can for Aerith in the other "world" So is it any wonder I'm seeing neutral streamers on twitch saying "Oh she's singing about Zack"

Like up the point of the song it doesn't feel earned at all? Again my issue isn't with the song itself but how they've put it into the game doesn't feel like it fits with the narrative presented before it, and it's inconsistent with Aerith's character after it.

Because here's the kicker, considering what these lyrics seem to be saying, that she's madly in love with Cloud and wants to be with him forever or whatever, why then in a chapter or two after this she only says she likes Cloud but doesn't even know what kind of like, how is that consistent with the song at all? If she loves him and wants to be with him that much why not just say you love him instead of like like.

I'm just very confused by how they've chosen to incorporate it. It being the end credits song I think works more especially if abouts Aerith expressing herself, I just don't think it works in the actual game at the time and place they've chosen to do it, if its purely about Cloud.

The bits from the interview I take in personally are the following:

Uematsu: “No Promises to Keep” is a love song. I wanted it to exude a sweet feeling, but at the same time, evoke the complex feeling as Aerith confessed her feelings. I tried to build up the song as it climaxed, exactly as Loren described.

For Uematsu who has direct contact with the creators he makes a point of evoking Aeriths complex feelings. I think a key part of Aeriths character for the directors is conveying that she has really complex feelings - especially about love/who she loves. They really hammer that home a lot in this game.

Loren: It’s completely different. First of all, since Aerith is a fictitious character, it wasn’t like I could meet her to get to know her. I had to spend a lot of time online to learn about her instead. To top it off, since Final Fantasy has a cross-generational, long-standing fanbase, it’s not the same as singing for a new movie. I feel fortunate to have had the opportunity to sing for a game title, as I know how unique and fascinating the gaming world is. I did a lot of research on YouTube and Wikipedia and read so many articles.

And second is this one above. Loren has been doing her research on English speaking internet and probably reading fan made articles by Cleriths - so I genuinely would believe they have a different view of this song.

It's clear Loren has taken on inspiration from the LTD discourse but from what Uematsu says I don't really think that's the creators intentions as such. And Loren is absolutely not the one who wrote the music. I would take Uematsus comments on it meaning to display Aeriths complex feelings (so, Zack and Cloud) much more seriously than anything Loren says since she admits she did research on the character through YouTube videos etc.. Uematsu was also not the person who wrote the lyrics either, just the music. It was Nojima

 

[Stiggie]

Just to check, the near kiss in Gongaga is completely non-optional right? Independent of affection score? Because if so I'd argue that that more than even the actual Gold saucer date is an end to the LTD. If Cloud already tries to kiss Tifa in the most Aerith focussed playthrough imaginable, then I'd have to see that as an indication that whatever deep warm spiritual feelings he expresses for Aerith later is something else. Because I do not see Cloud trying to kiss Tifa one minute, and then trying to woo Aerith days later. And ESPECIALLY not after the "oh yeah, she's the girl Zacks obsessed over" talk.

 

[Rin]

Just to check, the near kiss in Gongaga is completely non-optional right? Independent of affection score? Because if so I'd argue that that more than even the actual Gold saucer date is an end to the LTD. If Cloud already tries to kiss Tifa in the most Aerith focussed playthrough imaginable, then I'd have to see that as an indication that whatever deep warm spiritual feelings he expresses for Aerith later is something else. Because I do not see Cloud trying to kiss Tifa in minute, and then trying to woo Aerith days later. And ESPECIALLY not after the "oh yeah, she's the girl Zacks obsessed over" talk.

Yup, non-optional!

Also, Cloud keeps saying Jenova can become people you hate, fear, and love. He doesn't hate Tifa... he's not afraid of her either, so that only leaves "love". And he says this to her 2x.

 

[Empyrea]

Yup, non-optional!

Also, Cloud keeps saying Jenova can become people you hate, fear, and love. He doesn't hate Tifa... he's not afraid of her either, so that only leaves "love". And he says this to her 2x.

And the fact that Seph keeps trying to get between them like a jealous ex
In all seriousness, though, Seph's pitch is almost always that Tifa is not the one Cloud knows and therefore he shouldn't trust her. I find that there's no need for that if Cloud either hates her or is afraid of her.