SPOILERS LTD Remake — It's like New Coke except ... no, it's exactly like New Coke

[Eerie]

I've seen Zack fans lamenting about why Zack is treated that way in Rebirth... and I'd say it's pretty evident for me, it's to make us empathise and sympathise with what he's going through. So that when his reunion with Aerith will happen in part 3, it will make it all sweeter - because yes, I'd argue that he needs to know about Aerith's feelings, and he needs to know what is happening, why. He is going to stay by her side always, so they need to talk about this. It's all for the romance drama, just like Cloud and Tifa's scene in Kalm or the ending where she can't reach him anymore is romance drama waiting to get resolved in the next part.

Rebirth dripped more Zerith to me than CA, because I saw CA as friendship (from Cloud's side, it was murkier from Aerith's side) while I saw yearning in ZA. And while Nojima can absolutely write one-sided romances, I do not believe that's what he intends to do with Zerith.

 

[Eerie]

Cloud either hates her or is afraid of her.

Just so you know the JP version (and the FR one too) has "those you love and those you fear" by Sephiroth, which he repeats in Gongaga.

 

[Empyrea]

So the EN version has an added one? Interesting.

 

[faefolk]

Yup, non-optional!

Also, Cloud keeps saying Jenova can become people you hate, fear, and love. He doesn't hate Tifa... he's not afraid of her either, so that only leaves "love". And he says this to her 2x.

In Japanese it's even more on the nose tbh.. something like 'once upon a time Jenova would approach you as someone you loved or someone you feared.. she deceived them. I won't be fooled!'

Pretty sure he doesn't fear Tifa so.. yanno.

 

[faefolk]

Just to check, the near kiss in Gongaga is completely non-optional right? Independent of affection score? Because if so I'd argue that that more than even the actual Gold saucer date is an end to the LTD. If Cloud already tries to kiss Tifa in the most Aerith focussed playthrough imaginable, then I'd have to see that as an indication that whatever deep warm spiritual feelings he expresses for Aerith later is something else. Because I do not see Cloud trying to kiss Tifa in minute, and then trying to woo Aerith days later. And ESPECIALLY not after the "oh yeah, she's the girl Zacks obsessed over" talk.

Yeah this, the troupe-y 'lean against the door after saying goodbye' that happens after Cloud apologises for Kalm, the entire Gongaga sequence and them comforting one another in Nibelheim. It's a really nice build up.

 

[Maidenofwar]

Uematsu liked a tweet saying about it being a love song about Aerith's feelings for Cloud. I don't know why it's so hard to let CA have this song when CT or ZA could get their own/theme song.

 

[GamerSkull]

I'd argue Rebirth, in fact, is the first time in 27 years of Final Fantasy VII in which one can say without any discussion that Cloud romantically loves one of the girls (Tifa). It can no longer be denied. Since 1997 every single element has been debated ad nausea but for the first time we've had a pure, unambiguous show of romance from Cloud towards one, and only one, of the girls that cannot be handwaved, misinterpreted or headcanonned. Even the Highwind scene in OG has been twisted, but one cannot ignore that Cloud kissed Tifa.

There are sweet moments in Rebirth for CA, but they aren't any different from what we've seen in the past and, arguably, they show precisely why they will never be a couple. Cloud's feelings for Aerith have always been murky, yet here we have him call her nakama and seemingly ignore her romantic advances, if not get outright frustrated by them. Aerith's feelings for Cloud have seemed more clear cut, but cannot be viewed without the context of her relationship with Zack and it's clear by the end that she too knows she cannot get over him.

The devs have gone out of their way to make Tifa and Zack obstacles to CA ever happening, yet CT encounters no such narrative issues. CA has always fallen foul of occams razor in this way but by Rebirth it's more profound than ever and at least one can no longer claim Clerith alone is canon. One can say Cloud loves both Tifa and Aerith romantically - and I'd disagree - but after the kiss (in particular) Tifa can no longer be removed from the equation. Yes, The Lifestream, Under the Highwind, Advent Children etc should have already established that, but there's no misinterpreting a kiss. It's done.



In fairness, this guy is a fairly frequent collaborator with, and simp for, ARUUU. The kind of reach he has is limited to the sort of people for whom facts are merely bumps on the road to be avoided.

Who’s ARUU? A streamer?

Anyway, yeah I agree with everything you said.

But yeah, this just proves the LTD will never die lmao.

 

[Rose Alive]

If NPTK is a love song about Aerith's feelings for only Cloud, then yeah it's a love song. An unrequited love song, but a love song nonetheless.

Tbh I prefer that street to be special place for both of them as it's described, not the church where Zack always come home to. The song instrumental is played on Sector 5 dream date, not in the church where using "Aerith's Theme" again. Though the last verse of the full song in the credit roll (not Loveless ver.) to me sounds like about them being separated again in the street and she return to be lonely that she hopes he find her there. So this is probably unrequited / unattainable love song, just like "Never Enough" in The Greatest Showman representing Jenny's feelings for PT Barnum, the guy who marries his childhood friends. Again, Nomura blatantly said the moment Jenny singing it is what inspired him to create Aerith's version

Eleamaya hit the nail on the head.

 

[Rin]

Uematsu liked a tweet saying about it being a love song about Aerith's feelings for Cloud. I don't know why it's so hard to let CA have this song when CT or ZA could get their own/theme song.

It's because Nomura said he painstakingly edited the final trailer to match each part of the song lyrics and right over the part where Aerith sings about being found/never being let go, we see Zack at her bedside. No one is taking the song away from CA, but as I said before Aerith's feelings for Cloud don't exist in a vacuum which means it'll always tie back to Zack in the end--that's the ship as a whole because that's the narrative of CA.

NPTK can absolutely been seen as a CA-love song.... in which she's literally talking about how meeting Cloud reminds her of how much time has passed since Zack has been gone. They meet at the beginning of the song on the street and then they part at the end of the song.

 

[Maidenofwar]

Ah there's a Nomura interview/quote about the song? Can we see it here? I wouldn't mind seeing it thank you.

There's this as well-

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1768433672997482849

 

[thetriplerhyme]

It's because Nomura said he painstakingly edited the final trailer to match each part of the song lyrics and right over the part where Aerith sings about being found/never letting go, we see Zack at her bedside. No one is taking the song away from CA, but as I said before Aerith's feelings for Cloud don't exist in a vacuum which means it'll always tie back to Zack in the end--that's the ship as a whole.

- exactly ~ It actually ironically to look at Aerith when she's trying to hold on to "Cloud" knowing in her heart she obviously still loves Zack. Its like she's holding on to this guy obviously not giving her the same attention aside from friendship. so just she can 'move on'

I"m actually ( a bit ) happy at her conclusion "she is confused if feelings he have for Cloud is really romantic..( like and liking )" my impression to this is at least she's still aware of truth and not exactly just masking it. Again CLOUD is CLOUD and not Zack in the end its not the same.

- although the entire Aerith for Rebirth is still overall confusing for me seriously

 

[Hix]

About NPTK; the lyrics are largely taken from Loveless, in some cases word for word, in which the song is performed. The themes can apply to many situations and to many individuals. There's a blatant ambiguity in it and Joe Gamer isn't going to be aware of Nobuo Uematsu's social media guy liking a tweet saying it's about Cloud.

But, if you want to say it's a love ballad solely for CA then fine. It can be understood that way and perhaps it should be. It's a double edged sword however. You have to accept then that it acts as a confession to Cloud that he does not return.

 

[thetriplerhyme]

Ah there's a Nomura interview/quote about the song? Can we see it here? I wouldn't mind seeing it thank you.

There's this as well-

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1768433672997482849

- i don't understand the point but here




Uematsu composed the melody first with inspiration from Harry Nilsson Without You and Nojima came up with lyrics after.
- If C/A really wanted this song then this is a sad song. The ending of the lyrics wanting her love 'find her again' we all know Cloud will never find her. Who is the one whose going to be reunited with her and going to find her again in part 3~

Advent Children has shown it to us just like nomura said everything gonna be connected

 

[Maidenofwar]

People were already discussing the song so why are you yelling at me. I'm not allowed to defend it when others are discussing it but I want to say something different?

I won't be bullied or shut down over this.

 

[faefolk]

Uematsu liked a tweet saying about it being a love song about Aerith's feelings for Cloud. I don't know why it's so hard to let CA have this song when CT or ZA could get their own/theme song.

I don't think anyone is denying it's about her feelings towards Cloud? But the English version definitely brings Zack to mind. The Japanese version less so. But the Japanese version of the lyrics I find super depressing tbh. Kind of similar vibe to the Remake resolution

 

[MelodicEnigma]

So the EN version has an added one? Interesting.

Yup, not at all consequently different. Don't know why the distinction keeps being made, especially considering how contextually it makes since for the emotional manipulation Jenova takes advantage of. Love, Fear, AND Hatred are basically the big 3 for that objective.

People were already discussing the song so why are you yelling at me. I'm not allowed to defend it when others are discussing it but I want to say something different?

I won't be bullied or shut down over this.

Aerith has feelings for Cloud, and thus a song she is singing about her feelings will then be about him. You're not wrong. I think people are doing a deeper reading of the fact that her feelings for Cloud are also deeply connected to her feelings for Zack, which is proven true by the storytelling. It's CA definitely as it reflects their storytelling and involves romanticism in general. So it's all good.

 

[shady]

Uematsu liked a tweet saying about it being a love song about Aerith's feelings for Cloud. I don't know why it's so hard to let CA have this song when CT or ZA could get their own/theme song.

No problem with it being a CA love song, i’m just struggling to see how it fits in where they put it due to my previous explanation. It’s like they thought it would be a great theme song for the game— which I think works— but didn’t put much thought into the song when they decided to make Aerith sing it at the Gold Saucer. Because as I said up until that point have you really had that much lovey dovey and romantic moments between Cloud and Aerith for the song to make sense? Not to mention she doesn’t even know whats going to happen in the last few chapters because she doesn’t have her memories, but she sings and cries like she does.

Again I don't have a problem with the song itself, it’s more about how they implemented it, because it doesn’t make sense to me that Aerith would write and sing it at that point in the story if its purely about Cloud, especially also when you consider what she says after this chapter too.

There’s a reason I've seen many neutrals watch the performance and say ”oh she is singing about Zack” and that’s a failure on the developers side because they clearly haven’t got the Cloud and Aerith romance across enough to the player at that point, and who can blame them when a lot of the game also has Cloud and Tifa story romance and Zack and Aerith crumbs in Gongaga and so on.

 

[GamerSkull]

One thing to note, despite saying otherwise the Tifa/Aerith dates show that Tifa at least begins to broach the subject about Zack. From the background, they appear to be in the Hotel Lobby… which is where Aerith writes her song… which I assume happens shortly after.

Might be noteworthy.

 

[Maidenofwar]

People have definitely said "It's about Zack" and "she's singing it about Zack" I see these comments alot.

 

[thetriplerhyme]

No problem with it being a CA love song, i’m just struggling to see how it fits in where they put it due to my previous explanation. It’s like they thought it would be a great theme song for the game— which I think works— but didn’t put much thought into the song when they decided to make Aerith sing it at the Gold Saucer. Because as I said up until that point have you really had that much lovey dovey and romantic moments between Cloud and Aerith for the song to make sense? Not to mention she doesn’t even know whats going to happen in the last few chapters because she doesn’t have her memories, but she sings and cries like she does.

- exactly she wanted her love to find her.. how in the world that's gonna happened when Cloud completely said Rebirth they're just 'friends' ( honestly the dude needed Tifa to find himself ) the person she trully wanted to see still boils down to Zack and ONE PERSON WHOSE GOING TO FIND HER.

 

[faefolk]

Again I don't have a problem with the song itself, it’s more about how they implemented it, because it doesn’t make sense to me that Aerith would write and sing it at that point in the story if its purely about Cloud, especially also when you consider what she says after this chapter too.

I think it makes sense at this point of the story with the Japanese lyrics. Less so with the English ones. But y'know.. the English lyrics made me think of Zack a lot more so

In the original lyrics for the song she's basically repeating 'let me believe' a lot and 'I want to meet you tomorrow' which reads to me like 'let me think this is love, let me get to know you and stay with you'

And idk how good my translation is but one of the lines is literally 'I don't need logic' if I'm translating correctly which just made me lol

 

[MelodicEnigma]

I think it makes sense at this point of the story with the Japanese lyrics. Less so with the English ones. But y'know.. the English lyrics made me think of Zack a lot more so

In the original lyrics for the song she's basically repeating 'let me believe' a lot and 'I want to meet you tomorrow' which reads to me like 'let me think this is love, let me get to know you and stay with you'

And idk how good my translation is but one of the lines is literally 'I don't need logic' if I'm translating correctly which just made me lol

Yeah both would be reflective of something true contextually, really. Probably why people are so attached to the ENG Midgar Blues too. That's how production of these themes usually work evidently—very intentional and specific attention put into its creation and presentation as the FF/KH series always has done. (Which shows another emphasis of how they regard their ENG production in the company)

 

[shady]

I think it makes sense at this point of the story with the Japanese lyrics. Less so with the English ones. But y'know.. the English lyrics made me think of Zack a lot more so

In the original lyrics for the song she's basically repeating 'let me believe' a lot and 'I want to meet you tomorrow' which reads to me like 'let me think this is love, let me get to know you and stay with you'

And idk how good my translation is but one of the lines is literally 'I don't need logic' if I'm translating correctly which just made me lol

I’m actually reading them now and it reads a lot more like “i like you but I don’t know how much and I would like to be able to keep seeing you beyond tomorrow so that I can work out these things i’m feeling” which tracks way better with the things she says in the Church later on… damn, which also makes it more tragic with what’s gonna happen riiiiiiight okay if that is the case okay I see the vision more with the original Japanese version then

 

[Rose Alive]

I don’t think anybody will ever agree on what “canon” even means

It's frustrating because canon isn't even difficult to understand. All canon means in fictional works is the intent of the original author. So when people play through a game, or read a book, they may interpret something the author didn't intend. Now there's nothing wrong with that until you decide to discuss said work of fiction, and instead of trying/wanting to understand what the writer established, you insist your headcanon is correct. This is where we get comments like this one I saw this morning:

"Yeah the crazy shippers always mold every interaction and scene to what they prefer and think is canon, when clearly Cloud loves them both, the same way Aerith does. Cloud is young boy who never had any relationship, doesnt even know what he wants."

Despite throwing the word canon around, here is someone who clearly didn't pay attention to what the writers gave them. That Cloud's love for Tifa and Aerith are different, that Aerith's love for Cloud is her trying to move on from Zack while she tries to separate her feelings for them both, and that Cloud clearly knows who he wants. If his body language and words and actions didn't show that he wants Tifa, then this person is blind or in denial.

 

[thetriplerhyme]

It's frustrating because canon isn't even difficult to understand.

- nooo believe me we all connect to what " canon " means but those hardcore fans are just projecting their frustrations. True fans certainly accepts right away and just still enjoy whatever still in the game. however to those who needed to lie just to justify their way in.

its a lost cause.. ( thats for me though )