SPOILERS LTD Remake — It's like New Coke except ... no, it's exactly like New Coke

[shady]

Here is the thing though, I do want to address. I don't think he is an idiot but if we look at Ultimanias he is definitely described as oblivious to the fact both Tifa and Aerith have feelings for him in the OG date. So unless we are saying that here he has some extra knowledge and the Ultimania doesnt count bc it's different now. I would say that's still probably the case.

For example in the Costa Del Sol date he just saw it as a mission he wasn't thinking Aerith would see it as otherwise and he says she's being mean when she calls the date DOA (dead on arrival). She is literally dissing the date here the same he called cheap. No reason for him not to agree with her but he is like why are you being mean. Bc he doesnt understand her frustration. Then he will later agree to riding a chocobo w her musing on how illogical it is. Bc he just sees it as oh we're doing a mission together. Then later he finds out oh she loves Zack.

And that to me is the extra knowledge he has. Not that she likes HIM. I think basically finding out she loved Zack made it so he's not thinking oh she loves me instead I need to reject her. But oh she loves this guy I should support her.
And I think Aerith loves Zack is the only thing Cloud knows about Aerith's feelings.
Not that she has feelings for Cloud. And I think whenever she says stuff like I want to be with you now or I like you he sees it as confusing because in his head this girl is in love with Zack. And even then he was oblivious to her feelings about Zack at first too telling her to forget about that loser and seeing from her response it was the wrong thing to say.

Cloud no matter what Aerith does doesnt fully "get it" and he never actually gives her anything to go on other than we're friends. So she now knows where they stand. That's why him saying Of course let's hang out again upsets her enough to give up even when he doesn't say say of course we're friends. He is just stating facts. And probably very worried bc she is acting strange.

But he is not responding to her efforts at romance so rejection then isn't even needed here. She is seeing that no matter what he will never be what she wants him to even in her dream. And that's the same in Costa Del Sol she's having a feelings crisis while he's like let's get this mission over with okay. They are not on the same wave length. It's not him rejecting her it's her realizing he's not aware of her feelings bc he is not even thinking of her in that way to begin. And that she isnt sure of hers so she is conflicted and questioning and basically gives up.

And he treats her as friend and says so because she is his friend. But that doesn't indicate he actually knew how she felt until maybe the scene where she actually confesses and even then his response tells me he still is like huh that's really strange for Aerith to say is she ok. He's not calling her weird for confessing. He is saying she is acting weird. Because he doesn't really get why she would confess to him. We're friends and doesnt she love Zack? Is everything ok?

And I think this matches up with the original story too. And it matches with her resolution and monologue she realizes for her self she has been looking for her moments with Zack in him and that makes her conflicted.

Cloud doesnt do much else except be a supportive friend. And she is the one figuring everything out while he isn't clued in. He doesn't need to be clued in however for HER to resolve her feelings and she realizes she doesnt know her feelings but the time spent with him is enough. So now she has her answer.

And I don't see it as oh he had a chance to kiss Aerith. I don't think he would have personally kissed her in any case even if we say he liked her bc even if he did want to Aerith loves Zack and he'd probably not feel he should. And in the story we're playing he loves Tifa so there is no motive to kiss another girl anyway because that's where his feelings lie. I also see it. The devs adding this knowledge of Zack made it so it's clear and we can't say oh if I don't get the Tifa kiss it's optional so he loves Aerith. Bc it's not optional also that he knows Aerith loved Zack basically bringing down any motivation for him to pursue Aerith even if we think he likes her. So basically stopping that argument before it happens.

For Tifa's date Cloud is less clueless because they have build up. They almost kiss in Gongaga no matter oblivious he may have been before Gongaga he would clue in definitely at the fact that there is some tension there that wasn't there before. Then in the GC date she brings it up and he acts on it. It's natural buildup. Just like addition of knowledge of Zack assured we can't assume he would optionally pursue Aerith this scene builds things up with Tifa so being oblivious wouldn't matter he'd clue in faster and he'd respond this time.

So basically I think Cloud being oblivious as he is canonically stated to be doesn't contradict the narrative. In fact it also rather explains it and I think all these things still flow story wise even if Cloud is oblivious to Aerith's feelings for him. Being oblivious doesn't mean he is not emotionally intelligent or is stupid just that he isn't thinking that way. He probably doesn't look at a woman like Aerith who is also always teasing and masking her feelings and think oh so she wants me. Especially when he remembered Zack and sees how she talks about him. But he is definitely considerate so he comforts her not really understanding what her deal is.

Nice insight again. I’m curious (not necessarily asking you to make a prediction) but what would you like to see in P3 understanding whats happened in Rebirth and how highly likely it is she has a reunion with Zack—regardless of her feelings for Cloud— will be a rather awkward affair and if she is… well you know… it would be rather sad and depressing to watch Zack, who was looking after Aerith all game, just to watch her pine for Cloud. At the same time how can it just go back to the way it was? Like it’s all just pretty awkward now in my mind. Even though I also believe they’ve setup CT we don’t know how Cloud really feels now because he’s so messed up at the end and believes nothing is wrong, might he turn around and say oh actually now I realise I do have feelings for Aerith? But then he also kisses Tifa so.. I don’t know it’s all a bit messy currently and trying to articulate my thoughts doesn’t seem to be happening

 

[Hix]

Nice insight again. I’m curious (not necessarily asking you to make a prediction) but what would you like to see in P3 understanding whats happened in Rebirth and how highly likely it is she has a reunion with Zack—regardless of her feelings for Cloud— will be a rather awkward affair and if she is… well you know… it would be rather sad and depressing to watch Zack, who was looking after Aerith all game, just to watch her pine for Cloud. At the same time how can it just go back to the way it was? Like it’s all just pretty awkward now in my mind. Even though I also believe they’ve setup CT we don’t know how Cloud really feels now because he’s so messed up at the end and believes nothing is wrong, might he turn around and say oh actually now I realise I do have feelings for Aerith? But then he also kisses Tifa so.. I don’t know it’s all a bit messy currently and trying to articulate my thoughts doesn’t seem to be happening

I kinda see you're point, but I think the devs will make up the difference. It's important to remember everything is leading up to Advent Children, in which Zack and Aerith are together. That's going to necessitate a reunion and reconciliation, which I think in many ways they've set the foundations for in Rebirth.

Aerith had every opportunity to say she no longer loves Zack in Gongaga - she's talking to Cloud, who she is trying to woo (for lack of a better term), after all - but instead responds that maybe she still does and that he's never given her a reason not to keep doing so.

I find this line fascinating for a number of reasons. First, as I said, she says it to Cloud who has asked in earnest and it's clear it introduces a certain awkwardness, because of course, between the two. Second of all, it debunks the oft cited Clerith narrative that Aerith has moved on, no longer loves Zack and the 89th unrequired love letter she wrote him was a "break up" letter rather than simply an admission that she was unsure he was even getting the letters (indeed, Tseng wasn't delivering them).

Considering all this, "maybe" is actually a "yes". A denial would have been easy here. Aerith is hinted to be aware Zack is dead at the end of Crisis Core, but at the minimum he's been out of contact and out of her life for 5 years. But it's clear Aerith still does love Zack, it's been clear from the very start - she takes an instant interest in Cloud who falls into her life in the exact same way as Zack did and progressively tries to recapture the magic she felt with Zack right up until the Sector 5 date recreation at the end of the game. She's not over him, but she's confused about her feelings for Cloud.

Rebirth is the process of her working these things out. Part 3 will have that reunion and reconciliation, but I really don't see it as being as hard to do in a way that won't come across as awkward or forced as you might imagine. It's been telegraphed.

 

[faefolk]

Is anyone else really confused by the creators use of NPTK in this game? It almost feels like in direct contrast to what is actually playing out on screen before our eyes. There's a new intervie with Nobuo Uematsu and Loren Allred

View attachment 14853

Now I actually think it's a great song, and Loren Allred smashes it.. but i'm a little confused about the way they chose to incorporate it?
Up until Aerith writes the song are we truly supposed to believe that Cloud and Aerith have the kind of relationship the songs lyrics would entail?

1 - She doesn't have her memories so she has no idea what's going to happen in the final chapters
2 - "Cloud" is right there with her
3 - Up to this point they've had interactions for sure but again is Cloud even that bothered half the time?
4 - "Our Place" of which Cloud and Aerith have been there once I believe, how did it go from Zack and Aeriths place to Cloud and Aeriths place all of a sudden
5 - She cries at the end as if knowing is something is going to happen or she's remembering something painful

Now up until this point we've had some Clerith stuff for sure, but there's also been a lot of stuff between CT, and ZA like Aerith even confirming she doesn't have a reason to not love Zack, but also feeling his hand in the lifestream, a lot of imagery between them both and us seeing Zack do everything he can for Aerith in the other "world" So is it any wonder I'm seeing neutral streamers on twitch saying "Oh she's singing about Zack"

Like up the point of the song it doesn't feel earned at all? Again my issue isn't with the song itself but how they've put it into the game doesn't feel like it fits with the narrative presented before it, and it's inconsistent with Aerith's character after it.

Because here's the kicker, considering what these lyrics seem to be saying, that she's madly in love with Cloud and wants to be with him forever or whatever, why then in a chapter or two after this she only says she likes Cloud but doesn't even know what kind of like, how is that consistent with the song at all? If she loves him and wants to be with him that much why not just say you love him instead of like like.

I'm just very confused by how they've chosen to incorporate it. It being the end credits song I think works more especially if abouts Aerith expressing herself, I just don't think it works in the actual game at the time and place they've chosen to do it, if its purely about Cloud.

The bits from the interview I take in personally are the following:

Uematsu: “No Promises to Keep” is a love song. I wanted it to exude a sweet feeling, but at the same time, evoke the complex feeling as Aerith confessed her feelings. I tried to build up the song as it climaxed, exactly as Loren described.

For Uematsu who has direct contact with the creators he makes a point of evoking Aeriths complex feelings. I think a key part of Aeriths character for the directors is conveying that she has really complex feelings - especially about love/who she loves. They really hammer that home a lot in this game.

Loren: It’s completely different. First of all, since Aerith is a fictitious character, it wasn’t like I could meet her to get to know her. I had to spend a lot of time online to learn about her instead. To top it off, since Final Fantasy has a cross-generational, long-standing fanbase, it’s not the same as singing for a new movie. I feel fortunate to have had the opportunity to sing for a game title, as I know how unique and fascinating the gaming world is. I did a lot of research on YouTube and Wikipedia and read so many articles.

And second is this one above. Loren has been doing her research on English speaking internet and probably reading fan made articles by Cleriths - so I genuinely would believe they have a different view of this song.

It's clear Loren has taken on inspiration from the LTD discourse but from what Uematsu says I don't really think that's the creators intentions as such. And Loren is absolutely not the one who wrote the music. I would take Uematsus comments on it meaning to display Aeriths complex feelings (so, Zack and Cloud) much more seriously than anything Loren says since she admits she did research on the character through YouTube videos etc.. Uematsu was also not the person who wrote the lyrics either, just the music. It was Nojima

 

[Stiggie]

Just to check, the near kiss in Gongaga is completely non-optional right? Independent of affection score? Because if so I'd argue that that more than even the actual Gold saucer date is an end to the LTD. If Cloud already tries to kiss Tifa in the most Aerith focussed playthrough imaginable, then I'd have to see that as an indication that whatever deep warm spiritual feelings he expresses for Aerith later is something else. Because I do not see Cloud trying to kiss Tifa one minute, and then trying to woo Aerith days later. And ESPECIALLY not after the "oh yeah, she's the girl Zacks obsessed over" talk.

 

[Rin]

Just to check, the near kiss in Gongaga is completely non-optional right? Independent of affection score? Because if so I'd argue that that more than even the actual Gold saucer date is an end to the LTD. If Cloud already tries to kiss Tifa in the most Aerith focussed playthrough imaginable, then I'd have to see that as an indication that whatever deep warm spiritual feelings he expresses for Aerith later is something else. Because I do not see Cloud trying to kiss Tifa in minute, and then trying to woo Aerith days later. And ESPECIALLY not after the "oh yeah, she's the girl Zacks obsessed over" talk.

Yup, non-optional!

Also, Cloud keeps saying Jenova can become people you hate, fear, and love. He doesn't hate Tifa... he's not afraid of her either, so that only leaves "love". And he says this to her 2x.

 

[Empyrea]

Yup, non-optional!

Also, Cloud keeps saying Jenova can become people you hate, fear, and love. He doesn't hate Tifa... he's not afraid of her either, so that only leaves "love". And he says this to her 2x.

And the fact that Seph keeps trying to get between them like a jealous ex
In all seriousness, though, Seph's pitch is almost always that Tifa is not the one Cloud knows and therefore he shouldn't trust her. I find that there's no need for that if Cloud either hates her or is afraid of her.

 

[Eerie]

I've seen Zack fans lamenting about why Zack is treated that way in Rebirth... and I'd say it's pretty evident for me, it's to make us empathise and sympathise with what he's going through. So that when his reunion with Aerith will happen in part 3, it will make it all sweeter - because yes, I'd argue that he needs to know about Aerith's feelings, and he needs to know what is happening, why. He is going to stay by her side always, so they need to talk about this. It's all for the romance drama, just like Cloud and Tifa's scene in Kalm or the ending where she can't reach him anymore is romance drama waiting to get resolved in the next part.

Rebirth dripped more Zerith to me than CA, because I saw CA as friendship (from Cloud's side, it was murkier from Aerith's side) while I saw yearning in ZA. And while Nojima can absolutely write one-sided romances, I do not believe that's what he intends to do with Zerith.

 

[Eerie]

Cloud either hates her or is afraid of her.

Just so you know the JP version (and the FR one too) has "those you love and those you fear" by Sephiroth, which he repeats in Gongaga.

 

[Empyrea]

So the EN version has an added one? Interesting.

 

[faefolk]

Yup, non-optional!

Also, Cloud keeps saying Jenova can become people you hate, fear, and love. He doesn't hate Tifa... he's not afraid of her either, so that only leaves "love". And he says this to her 2x.

In Japanese it's even more on the nose tbh.. something like 'once upon a time Jenova would approach you as someone you loved or someone you feared.. she deceived them. I won't be fooled!'

Pretty sure he doesn't fear Tifa so.. yanno.

 

[faefolk]

Just to check, the near kiss in Gongaga is completely non-optional right? Independent of affection score? Because if so I'd argue that that more than even the actual Gold saucer date is an end to the LTD. If Cloud already tries to kiss Tifa in the most Aerith focussed playthrough imaginable, then I'd have to see that as an indication that whatever deep warm spiritual feelings he expresses for Aerith later is something else. Because I do not see Cloud trying to kiss Tifa in minute, and then trying to woo Aerith days later. And ESPECIALLY not after the "oh yeah, she's the girl Zacks obsessed over" talk.

Yeah this, the troupe-y 'lean against the door after saying goodbye' that happens after Cloud apologises for Kalm, the entire Gongaga sequence and them comforting one another in Nibelheim. It's a really nice build up.

 

[Maidenofwar]

Uematsu liked a tweet saying about it being a love song about Aerith's feelings for Cloud. I don't know why it's so hard to let CA have this song when CT or ZA could get their own/theme song.

 

[GamerSkull]

I'd argue Rebirth, in fact, is the first time in 27 years of Final Fantasy VII in which one can say without any discussion that Cloud romantically loves one of the girls (Tifa). It can no longer be denied. Since 1997 every single element has been debated ad nausea but for the first time we've had a pure, unambiguous show of romance from Cloud towards one, and only one, of the girls that cannot be handwaved, misinterpreted or headcanonned. Even the Highwind scene in OG has been twisted, but one cannot ignore that Cloud kissed Tifa.

There are sweet moments in Rebirth for CA, but they aren't any different from what we've seen in the past and, arguably, they show precisely why they will never be a couple. Cloud's feelings for Aerith have always been murky, yet here we have him call her nakama and seemingly ignore her romantic advances, if not get outright frustrated by them. Aerith's feelings for Cloud have seemed more clear cut, but cannot be viewed without the context of her relationship with Zack and it's clear by the end that she too knows she cannot get over him.

The devs have gone out of their way to make Tifa and Zack obstacles to CA ever happening, yet CT encounters no such narrative issues. CA has always fallen foul of occams razor in this way but by Rebirth it's more profound than ever and at least one can no longer claim Clerith alone is canon. One can say Cloud loves both Tifa and Aerith romantically - and I'd disagree - but after the kiss (in particular) Tifa can no longer be removed from the equation. Yes, The Lifestream, Under the Highwind, Advent Children etc should have already established that, but there's no misinterpreting a kiss. It's done.



In fairness, this guy is a fairly frequent collaborator with, and simp for, ARUUU. The kind of reach he has is limited to the sort of people for whom facts are merely bumps on the road to be avoided.

Who’s ARUU? A streamer?

Anyway, yeah I agree with everything you said.

But yeah, this just proves the LTD will never die lmao.

 

[Rose Alive]

If NPTK is a love song about Aerith's feelings for only Cloud, then yeah it's a love song. An unrequited love song, but a love song nonetheless.

Tbh I prefer that street to be special place for both of them as it's described, not the church where Zack always come home to. The song instrumental is played on Sector 5 dream date, not in the church where using "Aerith's Theme" again. Though the last verse of the full song in the credit roll (not Loveless ver.) to me sounds like about them being separated again in the street and she return to be lonely that she hopes he find her there. So this is probably unrequited / unattainable love song, just like "Never Enough" in The Greatest Showman representing Jenny's feelings for PT Barnum, the guy who marries his childhood friends. Again, Nomura blatantly said the moment Jenny singing it is what inspired him to create Aerith's version

Eleamaya hit the nail on the head.

 

[Rin]

Uematsu liked a tweet saying about it being a love song about Aerith's feelings for Cloud. I don't know why it's so hard to let CA have this song when CT or ZA could get their own/theme song.

It's because Nomura said he painstakingly edited the final trailer to match each part of the song lyrics and right over the part where Aerith sings about being found/never being let go, we see Zack at her bedside. No one is taking the song away from CA, but as I said before Aerith's feelings for Cloud don't exist in a vacuum which means it'll always tie back to Zack in the end--that's the ship as a whole because that's the narrative of CA.

NPTK can absolutely been seen as a CA-love song.... in which she's literally talking about how meeting Cloud reminds her of how much time has passed since Zack has been gone. They meet at the beginning of the song on the street and then they part at the end of the song.

 

[Maidenofwar]

Ah there's a Nomura interview/quote about the song? Can we see it here? I wouldn't mind seeing it thank you.

There's this as well-

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1768433672997482849

 

[thetriplerhyme]

It's because Nomura said he painstakingly edited the final trailer to match each part of the song lyrics and right over the part where Aerith sings about being found/never letting go, we see Zack at her bedside. No one is taking the song away from CA, but as I said before Aerith's feelings for Cloud don't exist in a vacuum which means it'll always tie back to Zack in the end--that's the ship as a whole.

- exactly ~ It actually ironically to look at Aerith when she's trying to hold on to "Cloud" knowing in her heart she obviously still loves Zack. Its like she's holding on to this guy obviously not giving her the same attention aside from friendship. so just she can 'move on'

I"m actually ( a bit ) happy at her conclusion "she is confused if feelings he have for Cloud is really romantic..( like and liking )" my impression to this is at least she's still aware of truth and not exactly just masking it. Again CLOUD is CLOUD and not Zack in the end its not the same.

- although the entire Aerith for Rebirth is still overall confusing for me seriously

 

[Hix]

About NPTK; the lyrics are largely taken from Loveless, in some cases word for word, in which the song is performed. The themes can apply to many situations and to many individuals. There's a blatant ambiguity in it and Joe Gamer isn't going to be aware of Nobuo Uematsu's social media guy liking a tweet saying it's about Cloud.

But, if you want to say it's a love ballad solely for CA then fine. It can be understood that way and perhaps it should be. It's a double edged sword however. You have to accept then that it acts as a confession to Cloud that he does not return.

 

[thetriplerhyme]

Ah there's a Nomura interview/quote about the song? Can we see it here? I wouldn't mind seeing it thank you.

There's this as well-

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1768433672997482849

- i don't understand the point but here




Uematsu composed the melody first with inspiration from Harry Nilsson Without You and Nojima came up with lyrics after.
- If C/A really wanted this song then this is a sad song. The ending of the lyrics wanting her love 'find her again' we all know Cloud will never find her. Who is the one whose going to be reunited with her and going to find her again in part 3~

Advent Children has shown it to us just like nomura said everything gonna be connected

 

[Maidenofwar]

People were already discussing the song so why are you yelling at me. I'm not allowed to defend it when others are discussing it but I want to say something different?

I won't be bullied or shut down over this.

 

[faefolk]

Uematsu liked a tweet saying about it being a love song about Aerith's feelings for Cloud. I don't know why it's so hard to let CA have this song when CT or ZA could get their own/theme song.

I don't think anyone is denying it's about her feelings towards Cloud? But the English version definitely brings Zack to mind. The Japanese version less so. But the Japanese version of the lyrics I find super depressing tbh. Kind of similar vibe to the Remake resolution

 

[MelodicEnigma]

So the EN version has an added one? Interesting.

Yup, not at all consequently different. Don't know why the distinction keeps being made, especially considering how contextually it makes since for the emotional manipulation Jenova takes advantage of. Love, Fear, AND Hatred are basically the big 3 for that objective.

People were already discussing the song so why are you yelling at me. I'm not allowed to defend it when others are discussing it but I want to say something different?

I won't be bullied or shut down over this.

Aerith has feelings for Cloud, and thus a song she is singing about her feelings will then be about him. You're not wrong. I think people are doing a deeper reading of the fact that her feelings for Cloud are also deeply connected to her feelings for Zack, which is proven true by the storytelling. It's CA definitely as it reflects their storytelling and involves romanticism in general. So it's all good.

 

[shady]

Uematsu liked a tweet saying about it being a love song about Aerith's feelings for Cloud. I don't know why it's so hard to let CA have this song when CT or ZA could get their own/theme song.

No problem with it being a CA love song, i’m just struggling to see how it fits in where they put it due to my previous explanation. It’s like they thought it would be a great theme song for the game— which I think works— but didn’t put much thought into the song when they decided to make Aerith sing it at the Gold Saucer. Because as I said up until that point have you really had that much lovey dovey and romantic moments between Cloud and Aerith for the song to make sense? Not to mention she doesn’t even know whats going to happen in the last few chapters because she doesn’t have her memories, but she sings and cries like she does.

Again I don't have a problem with the song itself, it’s more about how they implemented it, because it doesn’t make sense to me that Aerith would write and sing it at that point in the story if its purely about Cloud, especially also when you consider what she says after this chapter too.

There’s a reason I've seen many neutrals watch the performance and say ”oh she is singing about Zack” and that’s a failure on the developers side because they clearly haven’t got the Cloud and Aerith romance across enough to the player at that point, and who can blame them when a lot of the game also has Cloud and Tifa story romance and Zack and Aerith crumbs in Gongaga and so on.

 

[GamerSkull]

One thing to note, despite saying otherwise the Tifa/Aerith dates show that Tifa at least begins to broach the subject about Zack. From the background, they appear to be in the Hotel Lobby… which is where Aerith writes her song… which I assume happens shortly after.

Might be noteworthy.

 

[Maidenofwar]

People have definitely said "It's about Zack" and "she's singing it about Zack" I see these comments alot.