SPOILERS LTD Remake — It's like New Coke except ... no, it's exactly like New Coke

[Strangelove]

no, i agree that it's said in a mocking tone. i don't think some rowdy guy in a crowd is giving some substantial info or anything lol

 

[billy22]

I must say that between Wall Market, Madame M, the Honeybee Inn, and Tifa/Aerith's hot dress, I was expecting hoping for something completely different than what I ended up getting out of a Coliseum named after Don Corneo.

The epic boss fight almost made up for it though. Almost...

 

[null]

Yeah, but the devs could have put in anything to make her actually say something. Don't forget we aren't talking about real people here, there was a deliberate decision made to have her basically say nothing.

I mean sure they could have, and I was pretty disappointed she did nothing but state the obvious. But the only difference between the two conversations is Tifa's question, and it doesn't make sense for Aerith to ask the same question when she already knows Cloud's answer. I don't think Aerith's lack of extended dialogue is supposed to indicate anything special.

And I gotta say it again, OG callback be darned, that's still an ass backward way to break a tie.

 

[Graymouse]

I mean sure they could have, and I was pretty disappointed she did nothing but state the obvious. But the only difference between the two conversations is Tifa's question, and it doesn't make sense for Aerith to ask the same question when she already knows Cloud's answer. I don't think Aerith's lack of extended dialogue is supposed to indicate anything special.

And I gotta say it again, OG callback be darned, that's still an ass backward way to break a tie.

Now, when I say this I am saying it through a very bias lens and I will admit that.

I didn't have to worry about the sewer being a tie breaker. I made damn sure I always picked the dialog that favored Tifa.

----Seriously though, I agree. It is rather crazy that particular moment is the tie breaker. Although I think that Aerith has more side stories to do and are in my opinion a bit harder than, kill a warerat or what not in CH3.

Edited to add, it is rather odd, mechanically. Are Tifa's 6 side missions weighed more heavily? Is that why Aerith has more side missions.

 

[Theozilla]

Now, when I say this I am saying it through a very bias lens and I will admit that.

I didn't have to worry about the sewer being a tie breaker. I made damn sure I always picked the dialog that favored Tifa.

----Seriously though, I agree. It is rather crazy that particular moment is the tie breaker. Although I think that Aerith has more side stories to do and are in my opinion a bit harder than, kill a warerat or what not in CH3.

No, both Chapter 3 and Chapter 8 have six sidequests total, it's exactly even.

 

[billy22]

It's a bit of a disappointment tbh, I was hoping for something more dynamic than "Do all these quests" and a "who do you talk to first" as the tiebreaker for which scene you get.

 

[Graymouse]

No, both Chapter 3 and Chapter 8 have six sidequests total, it's exactly even.

I see. Well damn! *crumbles up the paper and throws it into the trash.*

 

[null]

Now, when I say this I am saying it through a very bias lens and I will admit that.

I didn't have to worry about the sewer being a tie breaker. I made damn sure I always picked the dialog that favored Tifa.

----Seriously though, I agree. It is rather crazy that particular moment is the tie breaker. Although I think that Aerith has more side stories to do and are in my opinion a bit harder than, kill a warerat or what not in CH3.

Edited to add, it is rather odd, mechanically. Are Tifa's 6 side missions weighed more heavily? Is that why Aerith has more side missions.

Oh I'm Team Tifa like a mofo this time around. She's my new Tali'Zorah. I demand a Highwind Scene minigame with The Valkyrie playing.

 

[Graymouse]

It's a bit of a disappointment tbh, I was hoping for something more dynamic than "Do all these quests" and a "who do you talk to first" as the tiebreaker for which scene you get.

I agree. However, there are other conversations that kind fill in for that. I know it could have been more intuitive, but hey. I still enjoyed the mechanic nonetheless.

Oh I'm Team Tifa like a mofo this time around. She's my new Tali'Zorah. I demand a Highwind Scene minigame with The Valkyrie playing.

I was thinking more of Chariots of Fire theme playing would be more appropriate for Cloud and Tifa! Slow and steady! That is their entire relationship.

(guys sorry about the double posting, I just figured out how to quote several people at once. I am such a nooob!)

 

[a_apple]

I mean sure they could have, and I was pretty disappointed she did nothing but state the obvious. But the only difference between the two conversations is Tifa's question, and it doesn't make sense for Aerith to ask the same question when she already knows Cloud's answer. I don't think Aerith's lack of extended dialogue is supposed to indicate anything special.

And I gotta say it again, OG callback be darned, that's still an ass backward way to break a tie.

I still think it's deliberately done, like they could have her made say anything more substantial instead of "let's go bro". The idea behind that scene is after all that you choose your favorite girl and get a special dialog from her.

 

[Cat on Mars]

Come for the LTD debate, stay for Strangelove's lore! And Aerith's feet.

I think both are gorgeous, but now I am slightly weirded out by Aerith's big feet.

Idk if this is a stereotype in Japan, but my mom used to joke with me that white woman have humongous feet. So I wonder if thats a thing that was on their mind when they were trying to make Aeriths model look western.

Biometrics is a thing. Tifa's feet are fine for her size, but Aerith's stated height is 10 cm (that's roughly 4 freedom units for you americans) shorter than hers. In fact, Aerith and I are the same height, and her feet are reeeeally long. Given her size, they should be smaller and her toes should be slender to fit better with her frame. Twilight, I hope you enjoyed this as a thank you for your efforts

I guess the love-triangle is still firmly in place?
Also, I don't understand why you keep bringing Aerith's importance to the plot as a way of proving CxA ?! Aerith is definitely the catalyst for the narrative, however, this doesn't automatically means: being important on the main plot = being the main romantic interest.

THANK YOU! Bolded, underlined and bigger size font for emphasis!

When you look at her death, her Cetra heritage, Holy, the lifestream, saving the Planet, and her image being the first & last image we see in the entire game, I think my overall, big-picture point is true.

So SE deciding to make Aerith both the FIRST & LAST images of FFVII mean nothing?
That was just a coincidence...?

BlankBeat, do me a favor please. Don't refer to Remake events and OG events as taking place in the same place or continuity, okay? Just for clarity and in order to avoid any misunderstanding. Can you please do that?
Pretty please?

Maybe being polyamorous for so many years has rendered me obtuse with regard to being able to see these things the way the average person does anymore, but I'm reading all these notions of how this or that scene fits the narrative better -- or how this or that bit of dialogue/possible symbolism/lingering gaze undermines someone's love for another person, as though the increase or decrease of love were comparable to increasing or decreasing the pH of a compound -- and I am just boggled and baffled. Perhaps even boffled and baggled.

Love isn't a finite resource that can only be allocated to a predetermined extent. Not even romantic love -- which is oddly the only love people act this way about. No one thinks that deciding to have a second child means the first one isn't loved as much anymore or that the parents want a "better" one.

Madness. =\

I'm terribly monogamous in a commited relationship for more than 12 years (and many more to come lol) with the same partner and I agree with you. I don't get all that symbolism stuff and how affection is a one-dimensional things, love has only one gear and romance must have a roadmap with very specific millestones.
Madness indeed!

Both of the women's Chapter 14 scenes fit perfect narratively. =P The developers were very clear that they went out of their way to give exposure and equivalent significance to scenes featuring them prominently, so they probably worked hard to make both scenes fit so well.

Yep, in my head all the scenes happened that night (poor Cloud, he can't catch a break even asleep lol). I'm loving that and I hope future installments do the same.

But really, you keep making the same arguments over and over, even though many people here have already explained why they don’t agree with you like... if it was a new argument on the same topic, I'd understand, but it’s literally exactly the same thing?
You're allowed to maintain your opinion regardless of what others think, but it's a little frustrating bc you keep ignoring what everyone here is saying if they don't completely agree with you :/

That's my gripe with BB as well. I don't mind musing over other's viewpoints, but trying to have a chat with someone who repeats the same things over and over gets boring fast. Extending common debate courtesy and receiving none from some posters is making my patience grow thin.



I like this post, so I'm going to comment on it quite a bit:

This is very different however. We are talking about a medium that has to establish clearly things. The OG had the advantage of being in one piece, so to speak - and even I have my gripes with it, re: cloti. Actually, I think the Remake is correcting a mistake from the OG, and that is not establishing cloti from the get go. The game pushes you so much towards Aerith that when the romantic conclusion comes, a lot of people either miss it or do not believe in it. To me, that is a mistake, narratively speaking. If you want your character to have a girlfriend, then she must be something else than "oh he just chose her cause she was the only one alive", or "he doesn't love her, he'll love the other girl for eternity!!!". In terms of narrative, it means that you have completely missed your goal, and that is partly why the LTD was born: because people did not understand the original intent.

The technical limitations really did a disservice to the storyline in the OG. Tifa's nuance was lost or stiffed, and that created lots of gaps in terms of narrative, ranging from the motivations behind her actions to her backstory and her role in the storyline. I'm happy we can see all the complex emotions, subtle hints and not-so subtle hints in such detail now.

And to my belief (and some others', apparently I am not the only one thinking that), all the UST and touching is there because they are indeed laying the ground for the Highwind scene.

They are. I deal with visual media and visual storytelling, and this building is required to organicaly reach a climatic point later. Based in all I know, your guess seems very likely.

Do not forget too what Nojima has said: because now the graphics are so realists, a lot of things need to be told in other ways than the OG, which allowed you to fill the blanks with your imagination. That is not the case anymore, and I feel that this is where this comes into play, too.

Each player filling the blanks of a story with this amount of red herrings and unreliable narrators was both a good and bad decision. I mean, it sure proviced discussion for years, but at what cost? Their creative intent was widely minunderstood or outright ignored. Developers were hounded by interviews until they got so fed up that starting trolling the press and the fans.

I know he doesn't look so but. Cloud is 16. In his head, at least, trying desperatly to look like an adult and to tackle things like an adult. This absolutely does explain why he acts like a puppy around Tifa, whom he's been lovestruck with for YEARS. Remember, they have not met for 5 years (7 for Tifa), but to him, that was just yesterday. So his true personality bumps back when he's around her. She was far away, unattainable, and suddenly, she is here, talking to him, being friend with him and so... grown up too! Imagine the effect that this can have on him lol, I think the depiction is rather close.

That's make makes CloTi adorable for me in the Remake, tbh. I have loads of pics saved with characters interacting and Cloud just standing here, such as "Barret hugs Tifa and Cloud is useless".


Yes, this is titled "Cloud being useless".

EDIT: Damn this thread moves fast!! I need some time to catch up.

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

i thought you said 'erotic' for a second there

you've not unlocked that level yet

Soon.

 

[Cat on Mars]

Soon.

Oddly ominous post.

 

[Graymouse]

Poor Cloud didn't know what to do. I think this also could have been running through Cloud's mind when he was comforting Tifa in their CH14 scene. Cloud got tired of seeing Tifa being hurt! This broke my heart!

Edited to add:



This is such a great scene! I love it! In the remake there are no rivals, or it is lessened greatly. This is good story telling!

 

[Yumelinh]

Come for the LTD debate, stay for Strangelove's lore! And Aerith's feet.

That's make makes CloTi adorable for me in the Remake, tbh. I have loads of pics saved with characters interacting and Cloud just standing here, such as "Barret hugs Tifa and Cloud is useless".

View attachment 5886
Yes, this is titled "Cloud being useless".

EDIT: Damn this thread moves fast!! I need some time to catch up.

This picture just remind me of this:

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1253559748722520064

That's it! That's Cloud in the Remake when it comes to Tifa XD (< yes, I still use this ;-; )

 

[Maidenofwar]

I was thinking of the final set of bandits just before you get to the park that say lovebirds!

One thing I wanted to bring up with all the talk about omitted scenes, moved scenes, changed scenes, etc, though I could be completely wrong about this, but isn't there a scene in the OG in Junon with the real Cloud and the back then you could get by with just skinned knees dialogue?, there that was triggered by Tifa if I remember right, here it is triggered by Aerith (chapter 8) I think the developers are probably having a lot of fun switching and mixing things up in general to be honest.

 

[Enthralled]

BlankBeat,

I am sorry but FF7 is not Areith's story. Just like it is not Tifa's, Barrets, or anybody elses individual story. FF7 story is about a group of rag ta group of friends who set out to save the world. To think otherwise would disgenious to the entire cast of characters.

It's more her story than most others. The story is actually about Cloud with Aerith being a stealth hero, as per hamaguchi.
https://www.usgamer.net/articles/fi...s-interview-feature-tifa-aerith-cloud-romance

"Indeed, if you look at the original game, Tifa is definitely an important character, but it always feels as if the story is pushing Cloud and Aerith together. You could even argue Aerith is the real hero of the story, where Tifa exists more to push Cloud's character arc along. " I think this is amenable to everyone. No need to thank me.

Edit: Hamaguchi did not say this, the article author did. But I think it's true and thought it before reading this.

I think someone argued something like More Important to Plot =/= Love Interest. And while I'd agree it's more common for the most important guy and girl to be love interests. And ff7 obeys this rule more than not, using Cloud's relationship with our girls to match their importance to the story in the moment. It draws the player in and is also just a nice use of clarity or focus. If you're gonna have a love triangle, this is an efficient use of it.

no, i agree that it's said in a mocking tone. i don't think some rowdy guy in a crowd is giving some substantial info or anything lol

It's shipbait to have people shout at Cloud and Aerith in the Wall Market like they're a couple, which happens a lot. Not unlike how Tifa and Cloud "accidentally" collide in action scenes.

 

[Theozilla]

I was thinking of the final set of bandits just before you get to the park that say lovebirds!

One thing I wanted to bring up with all the talk about omitted scenes, moved scenes, changed scenes, etc, though I could be completely wrong about this, but isn't there a scene in the OG in Junon with the real Cloud and the back then you could get by with just skinned knees dialogue?, there that was triggered by Tifa if I remember right, here it is triggered by Aerith (chapter 8) I think the developers are probably having a lot of fun switching and mixing things up in general to be honest.

Nope, the skinned knees line was at that point in the OG too.

There are more "black screen" scenes that represent "true Cloud" in the OG, like the Junon one, but it's about different things.

It's more her story than most others. The story is actually about Cloud with Aerith being a stealth hero, as per hamaguchi.
https://www.usgamer.net/articles/fi...s-interview-feature-tifa-aerith-cloud-romance

"Indeed, if you look at the original game, Tifa is definitely an important character, but it always feels as if the story is pushing Cloud and Aerith together. You could even argue Aerith is the real hero of the story, where Tifa exists more to push Cloud's character arc along. " I think this is amenable to everyone. No need to thank me.

I think someone argued something like More Important to Plot =/= Love Interest. And while I'd agree it's more common for the most important guy and girl to be love interests. And ff7 obeys this rule more than not, using Cloud's relationship with our girls to match their importance to the story in the moment. It draws the player in and is also just a nice use of clarity or focus. If you're gonna have a love triangle, this is an efficient use of it.


It's shipbait to have people shout at Cloud and Aerith in the Wall Market like they're a couple, which happens a lot. Not unlike how Tifa and Cloud "accidentally" collide in action scenes.

Uh, you misread that article, the part you're quoting is added commentary from the writer of the article, Kat Bailey, not a quote from Hamaguchi or any developer.

 

[Graymouse]

It's more her story than most others. The story is actually about Cloud with Aerith being a stealth hero, as per hamaguchi.
https://www.usgamer.net/articles/fi...s-interview-feature-tifa-aerith-cloud-romance

"Indeed, if you look at the original game, Tifa is definitely an important character, but it always feels as if the story is pushing Cloud and Aerith together. You could even argue Aerith is the real hero of the story, where Tifa exists more to push Cloud's character arc along. " I think this is amenable to everyone. No need to thank me.

I think someone argued something like More Important to Plot =/= Love Interest. And while I'd agree it's more common for the most important guy and girl to be love interests. And ff7 obeys this rule more than not, using Cloud's relationship with our girls to match their importance to the story in the moment. It draws the player in and is also just a nice use of clarity or focus. If you're gonna have a love triangle, this is an efficient use of it.

I will respectfully disagree with that. This sentence is out of contex, and it appears that you are cherry picking. We are talking about the Remake, not the OG.

Here is the entire paragraph:

"When it came for Final Fantasy 7 Remake, the development team observed that many fans were on "team Tifa or team Aerith," says Co-Director Naoki Hamaguchi. Many fans even accused the development team of favoring one over the other. Indeed, if you look at the original game, Tifa is definitely an important character, but it always feels as if the story is pushing Cloud and Aerith together. You could even argue Aerith is the real hero of the story, where Tifa exists more to push Cloud's character arc along.


The next paragraph he says this:

" The social media discourse led to Hamaguchi and the rest of the Final Fantasy 7 Remake development team putting considerable thought into how much screentime they would give Aerith and Tifa. "[W]e have been very conscious about the player’s amount of time with Tifa and Aerith and keeping it equal. Additionally, we would make sure their representation in-game is balanced as well; for example, if there is a special event scene for Tifa, then we would prepare something similar for Aerith as well."

I am trying to stay netural.

 

[Cat on Mars]

View attachment 5890

Poor Cloud didn't know what to do. I think this also could have been running through Cloud's mind when he was comforting Tifa in their CH14 scene. Cloud got tired of seeing Tifa being hurt! This broke my heart!

It broke mine too, Cloud must have felt terrible there. I feel it for them.
Confession: I can't bear Tifa crying. If she cries I begin to tear up. And I'm not the kind of person who cries with films and videogames. Sorcery! This game makes me feel things and I'm not ready!

This picture just remind me of this:

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1253559748722520064

That's it! That's Cloud in the Remake when it comes to Tifa XD (< yes, I still use this ;-; )

Saw that pic some days ago lol. It sems I didn't save it so thanks! I like this one too:

Also, don't feel bad. Ancient text smileys wil always hold a place in my heart

 

[Graymouse]

It's more her story than most others. The story is actually about Cloud with Aerith being a stealth hero, as per hamaguchi.
https://www.usgamer.net/articles/fi...s-interview-feature-tifa-aerith-cloud-romance

"Indeed, if you look at the original game, Tifa is definitely an important character, but it always feels as if the story is pushing Cloud and Aerith together. You could even argue Aerith is the real hero of the story, where Tifa exists more to push Cloud's character arc along. " I think this is amenable to everyone. No need to thank me.

I think someone argued something like More Important to Plot =/= Love Interest. And while I'd agree it's more common for the most important guy and girl to be love interests. And ff7 obeys this rule more than not, using Cloud's relationship with our girls to match their importance to the story in the moment. It draws the player in and is also just a nice use of clarity or focus. If you're gonna have a love triangle, this is an efficient use of it.


It's shipbait to have people shout at Cloud and Aerith in the Wall Market like they're a couple, which happens a lot. Not unlike how Tifa and Cloud "accidentally" collide in action scenes.

Accidentally collide, did you and I play the same game?

 

[a_apple]

I was thinking of the final set of bandits just before you get to the park that say lovebirds!

One thing I wanted to bring up with all the talk about omitted scenes, moved scenes, changed scenes, etc, though I could be completely wrong about this, but isn't there a scene in the OG in Junon with the real Cloud and the back then you could get by with just skinned knees dialogue?, there that was triggered by Tifa if I remember right, here it is triggered by Aerith (chapter 8) I think the developers are probably having a lot of fun switching and mixing things up in general to be honest.

I think that's a different scene, the part when Cloud hears his real self talk to him in chapter 8, was also in the og.

 

[Yumelinh]

I think someone argued something like More Important to Plot =/= Love Interest. And while I'd agree it's more common for the most important guy and girl to be love interests. And ff7 obeys this rule more than not, using Cloud's relationship with our girls to match their importance to the story in the moment. It draws the player in and is also just a nice use of clarity or focus. If you're gonna have a love triangle, this is an efficient use of it.

It's common but it isn't an unbreakable rule in storytelling. For my part at least, I was just pointing out that bringing Aerith's undeniable importance to the story told in Part 1 when it's not related to Cloud, doesn't work as a CxA argument at all.

Saw that pic some days ago lol. It sems I didn't save it so thanks! I like this one too:
View attachment 5893
Also, don't feel bad. Ancient text smileys wil always hold a place in my heart

You most welcome! ))

Awn, It's just so much easier to just type it than looking for a reaction on a wall of emoticons ;-; Common people! Make them trendy again D:

 

[Enthralled]

Nope, the skinned knees line was at that point in the OG too.

There are more "black screen" scenes that represent "true Cloud" in the OG, like the Junon one, but it's about different things.

Uh, you misread that article, the part you're quoting is added commentary from the writer of the article, Kat Bailey, not a quote from Hamaguchi or any developer.
View attachment 5892

My mistake. But it's still true imo. Tifa is part of Cloud's arc, Aerith has more direct plot significance down to even resolving the plot, and is part of his arc too earlier on. I really don't think this can be argued against. I thought this before mistakenly thinking Hamaguchi agreed. Hence my overeager attribution.

It's common but it isn't an unbreakable rule in storytelling. For my part at least, I was just pointing out that bringing Aerith's undeniable importance to the story told in Part 1 when it's not related to Cloud, doesn't work as a CxA argument at all.



You most welcome! ))

Awn, It's just so much easier to just type it than looking for a reaction on a wall of emoticons ;-; Common people! Make them trendy again D:

But it is related to Cloud, it ends with him shouting "nooooo". Point is it's a convention the game actually does follow. It's not so much a CxA argument as an argument against many anti-CxA arguments. Because many would end up devaluing an important character's relevance to our pov (which is Cloud) by arguing she's essentially like Jessie.

I will respectfully disagree with that. This sentence is out of contex, and it appears that you are cherry picking. We are talking about the Remake, not the OG.

Here is the entire paragraph:

"When it came for Final Fantasy 7 Remake, the development team observed that many fans were on "team Tifa or team Aerith," says Co-Director Naoki Hamaguchi. Many fans even accused the development team of favoring one over the other. Indeed, if you look at the original game, Tifa is definitely an important character, but it always feels as if the story is pushing Cloud and Aerith together. You could even argue Aerith is the real hero of the story, where Tifa exists more to push Cloud's character arc along.


The next paragraph he says this:

" The social media discourse led to Hamaguchi and the rest of the Final Fantasy 7 Remake development team putting considerable thought into how much screentime they would give Aerith and Tifa. "[W]e have been very conscious about the player’s amount of time with Tifa and Aerith and keeping it equal. Additionally, we would make sure their representation in-game is balanced as well; for example, if there is a special event scene for Tifa, then we would prepare something similar for Aerith as well."

I am trying to stay netural.

I did make a mistake with that but it's really hard to disagree with the passage and be neutral. Tifa's main contribution to the plot is helping out Cloud's mind so he can return, Aerith's is stopping meteor itself.

Accidentally collide, did you and I play the same game?

do you think it was all intentional that he'd have to save her? I mean if you're gonna argue that those moments are substantial relationship fodder instead of teasing the fans then yea that's biased.

 

[Graymouse]

My mistake. But it's still true imo. Tifa is part of Cloud's arc, Aerith has more direct plot significance down to even resolving the plot, and is part of his arc too earlier on. I really don't think this can be argued against.


But it is related to Cloud, it ends with him shouting "nooooo". Point is it;s a convention the game actually does follow. It's not so much a CxA argument as an argument against many anti-CxA arguments. Because many would end up devaluing an important character's relevance to our pov (which is Cloud).

I will have to argue that point, because you are completely ignoring the fact that Tifa mended Cloud's mind. In my opinion that is a direct plot significance down to even resolving the plot and is part of his story arc as well.