SPOILERS LTD Remake — It's like New Coke except ... no, it's exactly like New Coke

[Graymouse]

My mistake. But it's still true imo. Tifa is part of Cloud's arc, Aerith has more direct plot significance down to even resolving the plot, and is part of his arc too earlier on. I really don't think this can be argued against.


But it is related to Cloud, it ends with him shouting "nooooo". Point is it;s a convention the game actually does follow. It's not so much a CxA argument as an argument against many anti-CxA arguments. Because many would end up devaluing an important character's relevance to our pov (which is Cloud).

I will have to argue that point, because you are completely ignoring the fact that Tifa mended Cloud's mind. In my opinion that is a direct plot significance down to even resolving the plot and is part of his story arc as well.

 

[Theozilla]

My mistake. But it's still true imo. Tifa is part of Cloud's arc, Aerith has more direct plot significance down to even resolving the plot, and is part of his arc too earlier on. I really don't think this can be argued against.

If that's how you feel about it, you do you.
But I disagree, I think Aerith and Tifa have about equal significance in the OG, Aerith has more in the first half while Tifa has more in the second half. Their character writing and arcs focus on different things, but I don't think it puts either one over the other in terms of story importance.

 

[Enthralled]

I will have to argue that point, because you are completely ignoring the fact that Tifa mended Cloud's mind. In my opinion that is a direct plot significance down to even resolving the plot and is part of his story arc as well.

I literally said this when describing her role, so no we will not argue at all. You basically just described why that article says she's important to Cloud's story. Because she's able to clear it up for him and help him grow in the process.
Every character does something which accumulates towards the plot, but nobody thinks they're all just as important. Aerith and Cloud hoewever have the bulk of "lore" between them and have greater direct and individuated influence on events.

If that's how you feel about it, you do you.
But I disagree, I think Aerith and Tifa have about equal significance in the OG, Aerith has more in the first half while Tifa has more in the second half. Their character writing and arcs focus on different things, but I don't think it puts either one over the other in terms of story importance.

but they do not. Tifa is significant during disc 2, which is shorter, and Aerith doesn't stop being relevant in disc 2 or 3. Aerith is undeniably more important to the story when every fantasy element in the game revolves around her backstory and she stops the meteor that makes the game's logo. You'd have to rewrite everything without her, you'd have to rewrite a lot without Tifa but not everything. And most of it would be Cloud's backstory.

 

[Yumelinh]

But it is related to Cloud, it ends with him shouting "nooooo". Point is it's a convention the game actually does follow. It's not so much a CxA argument as an argument against many anti-CxA arguments. Because many would end up devaluing an important character's relevance to our pov (which is Cloud) by arguing she's essentially like Jessie.

I'm really sorry, it may be because English isn't my first language, but I didn't understand what you were trying to convey here (especially the first part) can you explain it again, please?

 

[Enthralled]

I'm really sorry, it may be because English isn't my first language, but I didn't understand what you were trying to convey here (especially the first part) can you explain it again, please?

You can't say Aerith's significance in the story has no bearing on Cloud when he can barely believe she's been killed, and she was killed because she was important to the story. That's really how you know the game does use his attention to each girl to emphasize when they're important to the story. By comparison you seemed to argue that stories do not necessarily equate story importance with romantic investment, while I think most in this genre do and this one does as well. Albeit more cleverly.

 

[Theozilla]

but they do not. Tifa is significant during disc 2, which is shorter, and Aerith doesn't stop being relevant in disc 2 or 3. Aerith is undeniably more important to the story when every fantasy element in the game revolves around her backstory and she stops the meteor that makes the game's logo. You'd have to rewrite everything without her, you'd have to rewrite a lot without Tifa but not everything. And most of it would be Cloud's backstory.

Listen man, I simply just disagree with that assessment (and Discs 2 and 3 are about equivalent to Disc 1 one in term of story). And you'd have to rewrite just as much stuff without Tifa as you would without Aerith. Like the Lifestream sequence is on par with Aerith's death in terms of significance to the story of the OG. We're just going to have to agree to disagree on this point.

Also this is getting thread off subject again, as this is a Remake only thread, not an OG one.

 

[Graymouse]

I literally said this when describing her role, so no we will not argue at all. You basically just described why that article says she's important to Cloud's story. Because she's able to clear it up for him and help him grow in the process.
Every character does something which accumulates towards the plot, but nobody thinks they're all just as important. Aerith and Cloud hoewever have the bulk of "lore" between them and have greater direct and individuated influence on events.


but they do not. Tifa is significant during disc 2, which is shorter, and Aerith doesn't stop being relevant in disc 2 or 3. Aerith is undeniably more important to the story when every fantasy element in the game revolves around her backstory and she stops the meteor that makes the game's logo. You'd have to rewrite everything without her, you'd have to rewrite a lot without Tifa but not everything. And most of it would be Cloud's backstory.

You are editing your message so fast, I can not respond to it.

 

[Cat on Mars]

I'm really sorry, it may be because English isn't my first language, but I didn't understand what you were trying to convey here (especially the first part) can you explain it again, please?

He means that not recognizing that Aerith's role in the story by virtue of her origin makes her the most important character is essentially demoting her importance to Jessie's... while stating that rewriting Tifa out of the story wouldn't change much, if any, of it.

EDIT: lol, I didn't see his reply before typing mine. This is priceless

 

[Graymouse]

You can't say Aerith's significance in the story has no bearing on Cloud when he can barely believe she's been killed, and she was killed because she was important to the story. That's really how you know the game does use his attention to each girl to emphasize when they're important to the story. By comparison you seemed to argue that stories do not necessarily equate story importance with romantic investment, while I think most in this genre do and this one does as well. Albeit more cleverly.

Who in the hell is saying that Aerith doesn't have no bearing on Cloud. Noone is saying this. However, and in direct contrast of what you are saying I feel that you are pretty much saying that TIfa has no bearing on Cloud with your previous posts. Both girls Aerith and Tifa have equal amounts of significance in the overall plot of FF7. Honestly who cares who Cloud loves best! Although it is fun to speculate.

 

[Enthralled]

Listen man, I simply just disagree with that assessment (and Discs 2 and 3 are about equivalent to Disc 1 one in term of story). And you'd have to rewrite just as much stuff without Tifa as you would without Aerith. Like the Lifestream sequence is on par with Aerith's death in terms of significance to the story of the OG. We're just going to have to agree to disagree on this point.

Also this is getting thread off subject again, as this is a Remake only thread, not an OG one.

I did only say disc 2 was shorter, which has the bulk of Tifa being important. And she is important to Cloud, who is in turn important to the plot. It's very transitive as opposed to direct. Aerith starts off important to Cloud, then we learn she is an Ancient, then disc 1 (haphazardly) has her grow to accept that role, and then Sephiroth kills her because she is a threat to his plan, and he was correct because she stops Meteor (even causing the lifestream to help). The party assists in this, but thats the operative word. Assist.
And idk if comparing the lifestream to her death is exactly asking the right thing, because those events were important to Cloud in how they were framed.

You are editing your message so fast, I can not respond to it.

Because I sometimes think I am not communicating my point well, by assuming what is obvious to me is obvious to everyone, so I edit frequently. It is done now so go ahead.
I really think, LTD aside, arguing Tifa is as important to the plot as Aerith is really insane. I made a mistake in attributing a quote, and it was caught thank you all, but even so I don't see the quote as off-base at all.

 

[Enthralled]

He means that not recognizing that Aerith's role in the story by virtue of her origin makes her the most important character is essetially demoting her importance to Jessie's... while stanting that rewriting Tifa out of the story wouldn't change much.

dude I am sorry I clowned you by dressing down the shitposter persona but that's not right at all. I actually said Cloud was most important, and Aerith's actions make her important (her origin merely explains why she can make these actions). And that many arguments people hypothetically make against CxA treat her like she is Jessie (ie just some girl who liked Cloud and he didn't like back who died). And that you could write Tifa out more easily, not that it would change nothing. I even said it would change a lot of the best scenes and would make Cloud a less memorable protag.

Who in the hell is saying that Aerith doesn't have no bearing on Cloud. Noone is saying this. However, and in direct contrast of what you are saying I feel that you are pretty much saying that TIfa has no bearing on Cloud with your previous posts. Both girls Aerith and Tifa have equal amounts of significance in the overall plot of FF7. Honestly who cares who Cloud loves best! Although it is fun to speculate.

Nobody, I was questioning someone's idea that because "story significance =/= interpersonal significance" inherently we should assume that ff7 is like that, because ff7 actually does use that as a narrative construct. It does use Cloud's attention to emphasize who is important and when.

And dude, please, I am literally saying Tifa's role is her bearing on Cloud. And this is only tangentially related to the LTD.

 

[Theozilla]

I did only say disc 2 was shorter, which has the bulk of Tifa being important. And she is important to Cloud, who is in turn important to the plot. It's very transitive as opposed to direct. Aerith starts off important to Cloud, then we learn she is an Ancient, then disc 1 (haphazardly) has her grow to accept that role, and then Sephiroth kills her because she is a threat to his plan, and he was correct because she stops Meteor (even causing the lifestream to help). The party assists in this, but thats the operative word. Assist.
And idk if comparing the lifestream to her death is exactly asking the right thing, because those events were important to Cloud in how they were framed.

Listen, I've already stated I disagree with your assessment. I really have no more interest in discussing this subject any further (and getting the thread off topic), just leave it at agreeing to disagree, okay?

 

[Graymouse]

It is so easy to get derailed. Especially since the OG plays such a important part in the remake.

Pounding the edit button here:

Actually, I really do enjoy reading opposing ideas and comments. This wouldn't be the LTD thread if everyone agrees on everything.

Edit again! We are on #713. You guys think we can get this Over 9000! sorry for the reference. Ok back on topic.

 

[Enthralled]

I really don't think it's complicated but here is a short play by play.

I linked an article which contended that Tifa is important more in her bearing on Cloud than the plot directly, while Aerith tends more toward bearing on the plot than Cloud (albeit she has that too, just earlier and isn't her ultimate purpose). I mistakenly said Hamaguchi said it because I skimmed. Theozilla caught this and I copped to it, so good for him. I still think that's a valid description even if someone official never said it.

There was a parallel discussion about how Importance To The Story is not equivalent to being a Love Interest. This is true but often times stories do intertwine these elements deliberately. FF7 is one of those. It uses its love triangle to accentuate the importance of the girls at different times. Generally speaking: Disc 1 = Aerith. Disc 2 = Tifa. Disc 3 = both kinda. Not a hard and fast delineation but tendencies.

And I said Aerith being important is why a lot of arguments against CxA (as in arguments that they never had anything going on) fall flat. Because then she kind of is just Jessie 2.0. A girl who had feelings for Cloud, that he had none back, who dies and he feels for but doesn't treat like a personal loss. Which is clearly not true. This is the main LTD thing I think.

I am someone who disagrees with what I guess we can call the consensus so I often talk to multiple people at once. And I think people conflate a lot of my positions as a result. But I also talk past people in my rush, so don't be afraid to ask me to repeat myself. Rather than assume.

 

[Yumelinh]

You can't say Aerith's significance in the story has no bearing on Cloud when he can barely believe she's been killed, and she was killed because she was important to the story. That's really how you know the game does use his attention to each girl to emphasize when they're important to the story. By comparison you seemed to argue that stories do not necessarily equate story importance with romantic investment, while I think most in this genre do and this one does as well. Albeit more cleverly

I... never said that..? Please, re-read my posts bc I made sure to let it very clear that I do see how important Aerith is to the story and for Cloud. There is a context in my post that you missed: what BB was doing was to bring plot points related to Aerith alone as a way justify why CXA should happen which shouldn't matter. Her significance in the story will not change nor will she be less important to Cloud just because she doesn't end up with him romantically.

He means that not recognizing that Aerith's role in the story by virtue of her origin makes her the most important character is essentially demoting her importance to Jessie's... while stating that rewriting Tifa out of the story wouldn't change much, if any, of it.

EDIT: lol, I didn't see his reply before typing mine. This is priceless

hahaha Thanks anyways

 

[Maidenofwar]

Oh you're right!, thanks for the clarification Theozilla and apple ? That means the scene in Junon with Tifa might still happen, neat.

I got back to the church on my Hard run, I found it more impactful this time especially don't step on the flowers and you're going to catch holy hell! from Aerith, iconic!

 

[Theozilla]

I agree that Cloud definitely had romantic feelings for Aerith (in the OG and likely the Remake as well), but even if he hypothetically didn’t, that doesn’t mean Aerith’s death wouldn’t be a personal loss to him.

 

[Yumelinh]

I really don't think it's complicated but here is a short play by play

And I said Aerith being important is why a lot of arguments against CxA (as in arguments that they never had anything going on) fall flat. Because then she kind of is just Jessie 2.0. A girl who had feelings for Cloud, that he had none back, who dies and he feels for but doesn't treat like a personal loss. Which is clearly not true. This is the main LTD thing I think.

ooh! I think now I get where the confusion is coming from. I think you're assuming most people here are trying to denying Cloud's feelings for Aerith when in reality most of us agree that he did have feelings for her ( the nature of theses feelings is the part we don't get into a consensus here).

It's arguments like "Aerith says the last words in the game, therefore she should end up with Cloud!" that I was referring to. It's a shallow argument and has nothing to do with her relationship with Cloud at all.

I agree that Cloud definitely had romantic feelings for Aerith (in the OG and likely the Remake as well), but even if he hypothetically didn’t, that doesn’t mean Aerith’s death wouldn’t be a personal loss to him.

THIS!!!

 

[Cat on Mars]

I actually said Cloud was most important, and Aerith's actions make her important (her origin merely explains why she can make these actions).
And that many arguments people hypothetically make against CxA treat her like she is Jessie (ie just some girl who liked Cloud and he didn't like back who died).

Who is making that argument, and where? Don't be shy, point it out. With quotes, screencaps, everything you got. I want to read that argument you speak of.

And that you could write Tifa out more easily, not that it would change nothing.

You can do anything, it doesn't mean it has a lot of sense.

I even said it would change a lot of the best scenes and would make Cloud a less memorable protag.

Well, at least we can agree on something.
Cloud is boring without an emotional side, and Tifa brings his emotional side with great nuance. See: AC, where the only character to emote was Tifa (and Marlene, okay) because everybody sucked balls (well, not everybody, Yuffie and Cid were fantastic but they had very little screentime).

Nobody, I was questioning someone's idea that because "story significance =/= interpersonal significance" inherently we should assume that ff7 is like that, because ff7 actually does use that as a narrative construct. It does use Cloud's attention to emphasize who is important and when.

"Because I say so, that why!"
Great argument, mate.

And dude, please, I am literally saying Tifa's role is her bearing on Cloud. And this is only tangentially related to the LTD.

Oh right. I mean, it's not like Tifa has motivations or backstory that explains in detail why she joins an anti-ShinRa group to exact payback against ShinRa and Sephiroth.

Back to square one then. Yes, my "translation" of your words was very much spot-on.

EDIT: damn people I'm trying to catch up!

 

[Graymouse]

I really don't think it's complicated but here is a short play by play.

I linked an article which contended that Tifa is important more in her bearing on Cloud than the plot directly, while Aerith tends more toward bearing on the plot than Cloud (albeit she has that too, just earlier and isn't her ultimate purpose). I mistakenly said Hamaguchi said it because I skimmed. Theozilla caught this and I copped to it, so good for him. I still think that's a valid description even if someone official never said it.

There was a parallel discussion about how Importance To The Story is not equivalent to being a Love Interest. This is true but often times stories do intertwine these elements deliberately. FF7 is one of those. It uses its love triangle to accentuate the importance of the girls at different times. Generally speaking: Disc 1 = Aerith. Disc 2 = Tifa. Disc 3 = both kinda. Not a hard and fast delineation but tendencies.

And I said Aerith being important is why a lot of arguments against CxA (as in arguments that they never had anything going on) fall flat. Because then she kind of is just Jessie 2.0. A girl who had feelings for Cloud, that he had none back, who dies and he feels for but doesn't treat like a personal loss. Which is clearly not true. This is the main LTD thing I think.

I am someone who disagrees with what I guess we can call the consensus so I often talk to multiple people at once. And I think people conflate a lot of my positions as a result. But I also talk past people in my rush, so don't be afraid to ask me to repeat myself. Rather than assume.

So, in the Remake, who is saying that Aerith isn't as important as Tifa?

I think I am just in conflict with the way Aerith is presented in the Remake as a kind-hearted bubbly character. That exerts herself into Clouds life is very different than what I was expecting for the character. I personally found it off putting. She was way over the top but this is my opinion.

I found that Tifa's calm more reserved attitude is was what I was expecting from her character in this remake. However, I will say this. I was shocked that she kinda wore her emotions on her sleeve way too much. The way she was presented is not the TIfa I imagined. I was thinking that she will still be reserved longer. She did seem like she was not herself. (I am so torn up inside, debating this) I wonder if this was the original way that the Devs wanted to present her character.

Edited to add, I liked the Tifa that was silently going after Cloud in her own reserved way. Not the Tifa, that can't keep her hands off of him.

(what the hell am I saying!)

 

[Cat on Mars]

So, in the Remake, who is saying that Aerith isn't as important as Tifa?

It would be nice to know that. Sometimes it feels like some posters and I aren't in the same convo at all.

I think I am just in conflict with the way Aerith is presented in the Remake as a kind-hearted bubbly character. That exerts herself into Clouds life is very different than what I was expecting for the character. I personally found it off putting. She was way over the top but this is my opinion.

I found it more off putting in the OG to be honest. I have no problem with her pushy ways in the Remake, I think they did a good job with her.

I found that Tifa's calm more reserved attitude is was what I was expecting from her character in this remake. However, I will say this. I was shocked that she kinda wore her emotions on her sleeve way too much. The way she was presented is not the TIfa I imagined. I was thinking that she will still be reserved longer. She did seem like she was not herself. (I am so torn up inside, debating this) I wonder if this was the original way that the Devs wanted to present her character.

My somewhat educated guess is that they're presenting Tifa as more open and relaxed towards Cloud in this part because they want to show how she retreats into herself when Cloud's memory and behavioural issues start pilling up.

 

[null]

I love that Tifa wears her heart completely on her sleeve, but I feel like Aerith isn't quite as bubbly as she appears. She seems a bit practiced in putting on a smile, plays her cards close to the vest, and doesn't really wear her pain for others to see. Foils and all that.

 

[Graymouse]

It would be nice to know that. Sometimes it feels like some posters and I aren't in the same convo at all.

I found it more off putting in the OG to be honest. I have no problem with her pushy ways in the Remake, I think they did a good job with her.

Interesting. I should have mentioned that I had the same feeling with the OG as well. I get your point with Aerith in the Remake, and you know I think my personal life experience with people like her character has influenced my perception of her.

My somewhat educated guess is that they're presenting Tifa as more open and relaxed towards Cloud in this part because they want to show how she retreats into herself when Cloud's memory and behavioural issues start pilling up.

Not sure if I like that. It kinda takes away the mystery of Tifa and what makes her tick. I admit though, in the late game Tifa will have her work cut out for her. I just hope that she gets to peel away the layers that is Cloud. I am looking forward to that.

 

[LNK]

I must say that between Wall Market, Madame M, the Honeybee Inn, and Tif

guys sorry about the double posting, I just figured out how to quote several people at once. I am such a nooob!)

You aren't the only one! I didn't know how to reply to specific parts, in someone's post, until today lol

 

[Graymouse]

I love that Tifa wears her heart completely on her sleeve, but I feel like Aerith isn't quite as bubbly as she appears. She seems a bit practiced in putting on a smile, plays her cards close to the vest, and doesn't really wear her pain for others to see. Foils and all that.

I can totally relate to you on this. I can, but I just wish she was a bit more reserved in her feelings for Cloud. It seems her feelings are written all over her face in her interactions with Cloud. I guess I want Cloud to chase her for a change. Is what I am trying to convey. LOL!

Of course you know my stance on Cloud and Tifa. Ugh! I am so conflicted! I want them to bang now, but I don't want them to bang now.