SPOILERS LTD Remake — It's like New Coke except ... no, it's exactly like New Coke

[dazzze]

@dazzze have you played the OG? If not I can maybe understand your statement, but there is a lot to unpack on the CT side still. Aerith stood no chance at all, ever because of how Cloud was impacted by Tifa in their childhood.

Played the OG many times.

Your assessment on Aerith I agree with; I too wish there were more Aerti moments because I LOVE it when the girls are shown bonding together, unironically, they make a great match for each other (if SE weren't cowards). The introvert and the extrovert, one doomed by the future, the other held back by the past? Yisplsgimmie. Each one has strengths where the other fails down to their core design principles of strength vs magic, surrounded as a child and sheltered as a child, both lose their parents to Shinra, both don't have a home to return back to.

When it comes to Tifa... its a real mixed bag for me PERSONALLY. I like her outside of the romance stuff, I loved the addition of her panic attack when revisiting the reactor, I love that she steps up to take care of Cloud when hes wheelchair bound, I like her when shes taking steps forward to pursue the bravery she displays in fighting outside of fighting. I actually love the Scarlet bitch-fight even though it will never return in the remakes. When it comes to her and Cloud... eh. I feel like I can't write what I really feel because I'll be cooked for it At best, I like Tifa. Thats about it, though.

I won't kill you for it, but I will disagree in part.

To me, I don't think there was a single scene between Tifa and Cloud that didn't drip with romantic undertones. I think there is a subtle difference between how you act with friends vs someone you have a crush on, and Tifa and Cloud were so consistently on the "crush" side of that line that even normal conversations made me go "why are these two not getting a room already?" The conversations after the Aerith Costa Del Sol date come to mind. It was just a regular conversation but every single line is spoken with this subtle sense of longing. Unlike with any other character Cloud sounds like he's very eager to continue talking to her. Not just "naturally talking to her" like with friends, but mentally pre-occupied with finding ways to get her comfortable and continuing this back and forth. I recognize this behavior since it's exactly what I am desperate to do when I like someone.

Aerith coming across as desperate I completely agree with. But I don't find it "cute" at all, I find it a combination of icky from Clouds perspective since he clearly doesn't like it (as evidenced by the Kalm scene) and depressing from Aeriths perspective who is clearly living out a lie and coping hard.

I also agree with Zack being a king amongst men, and as my favorite character I sympathize with wanting him to be alive, but since he's my favorite character I ship Zack x not having his story ruined.

I'm looking at these scenes without rose-tinted glasses. I understand that they can be read this way, but the same could be said with Aerith and all the moments she and Cloud share, too. Of course Cloud is going to fall in love with the first girl that ever gave him attention, but I mostly see it as trope-y, which can be forgiven as the material is coming from a game from 97. I can look at the ship and understand why its effectively canon (despite AC ... and the lack of romance), but I personally feel like SE tried to please both camps and, in turn, fell short in both.

For transparency, I like Aerith more than Tifa. Her desperation isn't meant to be cute, shes a dead woman barely walking and shes trying (and failing) to get blood (love) from a stone so that her last moments aren't as cold as she knows they'll be. I don't blame her for her actions, she feels human. She was left high and dry after pouring her heart out and got burned (unintentionally), and now shes flat run out of time.

 

[Eerie]

Well tastes are tastes lol when it comes to shipping. It just surprises me that you say you don't see the romance when their fight at Kalm and the reconciliation in Under Junon is romance 101 lol. When I saw that Kalm fight I was like "OMG OMG OMG" and the way it was done, everything dripped romance. They could only fight like this because they do love each other - and make no mistake, Sephiroth wasn't just there to point at Tifa going "sus", it's that to get to Rebirth ending, you NEED freaking SEPHIROTH to take care of the bond they have to severe it. I personally feel that the beginning of the 3rd game is going to be VERY interesting, in terms of relationships - not only CT, in which I expect Tifa to be a lot more reserved than what she even was at the beginning of Rebirth, but also everyone else.

And the game makes it clear: both heroines are alive at that moment, but Cloud choses only one to kiss. I think that was an affirmative from Rebirth to kill all those "if Aerith had lived" theories, because if one thing Rebirth has shown us, it's that the extrovert+introvert, at least with Cloud, does not work. And Tifa too makes him come out of his shell, and more comfortably if I may say.

 

[Stiggie]

Played the OG many times.

Your assessment on Aerith I agree with; I too wish there were more Aerti moments because I LOVE it when the girls are shown bonding together, unironically, they make a great match for each other (if SE weren't cowards). The introvert and the extrovert, one doomed by the future, the other held back by the past? Yisplsgimmie. Each one has strengths where the other fails down to their core design principles of strength vs magic, surrounded as a child and sheltered as a child, both lose their parents to Shinra, both don't have a home to return back to.

When it comes to Tifa... its a real mixed bag for me PERSONALLY. I like her outside of the romance stuff, I loved the addition of her panic attack when revisiting the reactor, I love that she steps up to take care of Cloud when hes wheelchair bound, I like her when shes taking steps forward to pursue the bravery she displays in fighting outside of fighting. I actually love the Scarlet bitch-fight even though it will never return in the remakes. When it comes to her and Cloud... eh. I feel like I can't write what I really feel because I'll be cooked for it At best, I like Tifa. Thats about it, though.



I'm looking at these scenes without rose-tinted glasses. I understand that they can be read this way, but the same could be said with Aerith and all the moments she and Cloud share, too. Of course Cloud is going to fall in love with the first girl that ever gave him attention, but I mostly see it as trope-y, which can be forgiven as the material is coming from a game from 97. I can look at the ship and understand why its effectively canon (despite AC ... and the lack of romance), but I personally feel like SE tried to please both camps and, in turn, fell short in both.

For transparency, I like Aerith more than Tifa. Her desperation isn't meant to be cute, shes a dead woman barely walking and shes trying (and failing) to get blood (love) from a stone so that her last moments aren't as cold as she knows they'll be. I don't blame her for her actions, she feels human. She was left high and dry after pouring her heart out and got burned (unintentionally), and now shes flat run out of time.

Yeah, I anticipated the "But you have bias" counter. But here's the question, do I experience the story as pro-cloti because I am cloti, or am I cloti because I experience the story as being pro-cloti? You say you don't have rose tinted glasses, but I disagree, the moment you experience a piece of media, you will interpret it, and then those interpretations are your new lens. Being in the middle, or experiencing Tifa and Clouds interactions as "just friendly" is just as much a result of you interpreting things through your preferences and beliefs as much as I do, and that will color your interpretation. By essentially saying that me having an opinion my opinion is invalidated, you are implying that the only people whose views can ever be seen as unbiased are those of people who don't pick either side. But if one side is right, then not picking a side is by itself biased. It's only bias if your position doesn't match reality. It's only "rose tinted glasses" if Cloud and Tifa aren't written to be romantic. You can't say I have rose tinted glasses unless you first prove that I am wrong, so it can't be used to a priori dismiss my interpretation.

You saying "in real life people touch their friends all the time" is definitely not you looking at things through a non-biased occams razor view of what is happening. Yes, people in real life do often touch....doesn't mean that when a story goes out of its way to show those touches, and with one person in particular, with added romantic context all around, that this is not also supposed to indicate a part of that romance. In an extreme example, in real life people sleep with people they don't love all the time as well, I wont be using that argument though to say that Cloud and Tifa sleeping together shouldn't be interpreted as necessarily romantic.

I don't think Cloud and Tifa were written especially romantically just because I like to think so, but because I went out of my way to compare them with how Cloud treats others, and vice versa. I do agree that by trying to toe the line between both they fell short in both, but I would say that SE isn't even trying to toe the line between Tifa and Aerith. It's clearly Tifa, Tifa is romantic, this is simply a non-ambiguous fact now. They're trying to toe the line between Aerth and Aerith. Between Aerith being a genuine romantic partner, or Aerith not being a genuine romantic partner. And as a result, neither of those interpretations came out particularly well.

 

[Eerie]

I will add that if many game journalists point that the blooming romance between Cloud and Tifa is well done, and now that the Tifa GS date is the best and most romantic, you can't really say that only shippers see them that way.

May I remind everyone that in my first round of the OG, I hated both Cloud and Aerith, wondered how come such an arse had 2 girls after him, until the Lifestream sequence which made me love Cloud and ship CT lol. The game showed me that Cloud's feelings for Tifa were really deep, and that Tifa was the only one for him. If the game hadn't done that, I wouldn't be a CT shipper. In fact most of the times in any media, I don't really ship, I just enjoy the ships and forget about them after some time lol.

 

[dazzze]

Well tastes are tastes lol when it comes to shipping. It just surprises me that you say you don't see the romance when their fight at Kalm and the reconciliation in Under Junon is romance 101 lol. When I saw that Kalm fight I was like "OMG OMG OMG" and the way it was done, everything dripped romance. They could only fight like this because they do love each other - and make no mistake, Sephiroth wasn't just there to point at Tifa going "sus", it's that to get to Rebirth ending, you NEED freaking SEPHIROTH to take care of the bond they have to severe it. I personally feel that the beginning of the 3rd game is going to be VERY interesting, in terms of relationships - not only CT, in which I expect Tifa to be a lot more reserved than what she even was at the beginning of Rebirth, but also everyone else.

And the game makes it clear: both heroines are alive at that moment, but Cloud choses only one to kiss. I think that was an affirmative from Rebirth to kill all those "if Aerith had lived" theories, because if one thing Rebirth has shown us, it's that the extrovert+introvert, at least with Cloud, does not work. And Tifa too makes him come out of his shell, and more comfortably if I may say.

Yeah, I anticipated the "But you have bias" counter. But here's the question, do I experience the story as pro-cloti because I am cloti, or am I cloti because I experience the story as being pro-cloti? You say you don't have rose tinted glasses, but I disagree, the moment you experience a piece of media, you will interpret it, and then those interpretations are your new lens. Being in the middle, or experiencing Tifa and Clouds interactions as "just friendly" is just as much a result of you interpreting things through your preferences and beliefs as much as I do, and that will color your interpretation. You saying "in real life people touch their friends all the time" is definitely not you looking at thing through a non-biases occams razor view of what is happening. Yes, people in real life do often touch....doesn't mean that when a story goes out of its way to show those touches, and with one person in particular, with added romantic context all around, that this is not also supposed to indicate a part of that romance.

I don't think Cloud and Tifa were written especially romantically just because I like to think so, but because I went out of my way to compare them with how Cloud treats others, and vice versa. I do agree that by trying to toe the line between both they fell short in both. But I would say that SE isn't even trying to toe the line between Tifa and Aerith.
It's clearly Tifa, Tifa is romantic, this is simply a non-ambiguous fact now. They're trying to toe the line between Aerth and Aerith. Between Aerith being a genuine romantic partner, or Aerith not being a genuine romantic partner.

I made it clear I'm not arguing for any ship, especially on a place like this where its wholly in favor of one over the other, so you don't have to waste time justifying anything to someone like me. My perception IS skewed but in an entirely different direction and by completely different glasses; without saying too much, my focus is almost entirely on what I feel like Cloud needs rather than the girls. Him and I share some problems IRL. That has, in turn, tinted my view on the idea of romance regarding him specifically. Can't be helped.

SE manifactured this game with the idea of putting both camps at war with each other; and its working. They have got both side death-threating the other side, fighting on multiple platforms and generally acting insane. I don't want to play into that at all, this is why I write 'personally' when I'm writing my thoughts out. My views on the girls as characters are different, but I'm thinking of them away from Cloud and as they stand on their own, and when it comes to the pairings, I personally feel like it dragged everyone down.

I don't feel like the kiss scene was a good move at all. I also don't feel like Aerith's pushiness was a good look for the character at all, either. I like Tifa's devotion. I like Aerith's playfulness. It is what it is.

If I had my way (LMAO) but my ending ship is everyone lives in a big house as friends (and everyone lives). Cloud and Zack works as mercs and Tifa and Aerith run a bar together. And everyone is happy and there are no defined ships and the fanbase all gets along. ~

(Actually I lied I ship Zack x PLEASE SE GIVE HIM A HAPPY ENDING IM TIRED OF YALL)

 

[faefolk]

Not a shipper (the only ship I love is Zack x being alive), and I'm in a weird position when it comes to the LTD, I think. I'm probably alone in this.
I don't think the romance was done good with EITHER girls. (For context, I'm female IRL, just stating that because there was a comment earlier about how girlies tend to trend towards CA).

I like Tifa, shes just sort of OK, I like moments where she shows extreme emotions (anger and happiness) and breaks out of her shell, but her and Cloud are just... awkward. I know they are supposed to be awkward, but before they kissed, they just came off as really good friends. Little touches here and there, people actually do that in real life to friends, surprise surprise. The lingering glances are a bit less subtle, but other than that... eh. I get the whole childhood crush thing, but even Tifa admits in the return to Nibel that she doesnt know Cloud as well as she thought she did. Yeah Cloud is a mess (getting to that later) but they went from kids, to not knowing each other for five years, to getting back together on a friendship that has a lot of lies and untruths to it? (Don't kill me for this lol)

Aerith on the other hand comes across as a girl desperate for love; manic and trying to put together what she had before Zack went missing with someone else, but that someone else is nowhere near as responsive as the man she actually fell in love with. I find her and Clouds dynamic cuter because extrovert x introvert, but she pushes him so much that it gets uncomfortable at times. Like Tifa, she doesn't really understand him either. The last date at the church seems like shes trying to grasp at straws and Cloud can't play along.

It makes sense that Cloti is the endgame, but if Aerith hadn't died... I wouldn't be so sure. And that in itself kind of messes me up in a few ways thinking about it.

Anyway, Cloud is too fucked up to be considering a relationship. I wish the relationship stuff wasn't so big a focus, I know I'm in the minority on that, but its just so tedious. Hes clearly going through a ton mentally and spiritually (Sephy stuff) and I feel like part 3 is going to be rough when it comes to the mind-fixing segment in the LS, its now gonna be full of memories of Aerith to balance out Tifa and blah blah blah. Anyway, just rambling here.

TDLR; Zack Fair is a king amongst men and deserves more than any other character in the romance subplot of this RPG game can give him.

Have you played the OG? Regarding your view of Tifa - I find she's hugely reserved for most of the main story because she's silently freaking out over knowing something is super wrong with Cloud. I agree she could be less reserved but I guess I'm sympathetic to her and Cloud as characters because they have seriously messed up trauma that would make anyone cautious.

Weirdly I actually get the 'wet blanket' remarks about Tifa and Cloud as individuals that I've seen - even though I LOVE them so much. Because yeah.. they're not the typical extroverted heros - just super fkn traumatised kids really. But as a formerly super traumatised kid, I just really enjoy the fact that they're both just really good people at heart that are struggling and want stability. I think it's so cool that the main heroes of the story are so very imperfect. They have communication issues that are frustrating to watch and Tifa has a truly horrendous fawn response to everything whereas Cloud is just so painfully avoidant.

Possibly also personally attached to them cause me and my husband are formerly traumatised wet blanket folk that strove for stability as soon as we could and live like elderly people at the ripe old age of 30. We're more fun now that we're less traumatised though but very boring lmfao. Weirdly my experience also makes me agree that Cloud (and Tifa imho) really should not be together properly until they're both mentally more stable. That's what I appreciated in the ambiguity of ACC. The love between them is definitely there in an obvious way but it wasn't obvious that they were actually engaged in a normal relationship (until for me the credits scene where he asks her to close the bar so they can have a fam day) and that was okay for me. I know my husband and I (childhood sweethearts irl) had to split for a couple years to process individual trauma before we could continue as a couple and lived together platonically in that time frame. Again.. probably projecting but I don't know. I love the humanness of their relationship and the kind of .. slightly sad and boring normalcy of being a couple navigating serious mental health challenges.

But yes, I also agree the relationship stuff shouldn't be the main focus. That's what upsets me about Aerith being portrayed as so pushy and why I appreciate Tifa being reluctant as a romantic partner. Cloud is really truly in no fit state at this point in the game to be doing that. Definitely got 'not sure I should have done that' vibes from Tifa post GS kiss in rebirth when they get off the skywheel. I think she's aware she shouldn't push it. Aerith on the other hand really pushes it and also just keeps bringing up Zack and I'm like girl, please go to therapy. All three of them need some serious fkn psychological treatment lol.

I agree that Aerith seems very manic. To be fair though, she's genuinely aware of the spectre of death hovering above her all the time and I'm positive that would make anyone super fkn messed up.

And gonna agree again re Zack. He really is/was too good and pure for the world of FFVII. He really is the ideal hero kind of character. Absolutely love him! Lovely boy with a lovely family and just generally a stable man. Heck in CC he even talks about his feelings openly. I Stan an emotionally healthy man. Zack really is the best.

 

[thetriplerhyme]

I never got how people interpreted that as Real!Cloud when even in OG, Aerith says she wants to meet him when he's right there. That was one of those things that had always made me think that date was canon -- it introduced the idea that there really was something off about Cloud. At least, it was the most obvious one to show that idea. The Kalm flashback was a little subtler about it.

- things are different to be fair in 97' ( although it was a bit weird in my eyes) you wont be able to see it right away and I understand how its easy to confused people. Honestly until you finished the game you wont be able to see the ( false persona and Zack') complete picture. I think this is what's missing in OG.

The fusion memories, Jenova and Aerith confusion has been explain in Ultimania ( until then that's the time people will have 'ureka' moment "ahhh soo this is what happened"

They focus soo much on 'impact' on Aerith's death that 1st part Tifa is a bit mishandled in disc 1. Hence why it was changed so much in remake/rebirth

May I remind everyone that in my first round of the OG, I hated both Cloud and Aerith, wondered how come such an arse had 2 girls after him, until the Lifestream sequence which made me love Cloud and ship CT lol. The game showed me that Cloud's feelings for Tifa were really deep, and that Tifa was the only one for him. If the game hadn't done that, I wouldn't be a CT shipper. In fact most of the times in any media, I don't really ship, I just enjoy the ships and forget about them after some time lol.

- in my case I like Tifa since day 1 ( I dont like OG AERITH at all - i wont go into details might get personal due to people who geniune like them - would like to show respect ) but I love how Tifa is always been the background support and I love women who fights their fist soo cool for me.

Cloti is like a cherry on top for me. ( ahhh soo this is the story..)

- still even back then until the compilation starts to be release that's the only time you'll get the picture.

 

[faefolk]

Well tastes are tastes lol when it comes to shipping. It just surprises me that you say you don't see the romance when their fight at Kalm and the reconciliation in Under Junon is romance 101 lol. When I saw that Kalm fight I was like "OMG OMG OMG" and the way it was done, everything dripped romance. They could only fight like this because they do love each other -

I have to say I don't agree re the Kalm fight - even though I'm definitely a Cloud/Tifa gal. The apology for Kalm however - that definitely had romantic undertones.

Kalm was just a crazy alien manipulated mess man. Ughhh.

 

[Maidenofwar]

I would say I think that's why in part some might prefer the LA versions of the dates, or LA versions can still have their positives or work better. Or if like me you bumrush the story and do zero side stuff ending up on guys night out

 

[faefolk]

I would say I think that's why in part some might prefer the LA versions of the dates, or LA versions can still have their positives or work better. Or if like me you bumrush the story and do zero side stuff ending up on guys night out

Yeah I don't have a ps5 yet cause I have other stuff we need to buy ATM but even as a Cloti I'll be going for the Yuffie date when I get the game

That was actually my favourite of them all. I thought it was absolutely brilliant. And obviously as a Cloti I personally see the strong foundations the game sets for part three in terms of more appropriately timed Cloud/Tifa stuff which I would prefer. I'm much more comfortable watching them being more explicitly romantic after the Lifestream sequence when Cloud is in a much less vulnerable state mentally.

Obviously still got heart eyes and felt all mushy watching their GS date though. Twenty years of build up will do that though

 

[dazzze]

Have you played the OG? Regarding your view of Tifa - I find she's hugely reserved for most of the main story because she's silently freaking out over knowing something is super wrong with Cloud. I agree she could be more reserved but I guess I'm sympathetic to her and Cloud as characters because they have seriously messed up trauma that would make anyone cautious.

Weirdly I actually get the 'wet blanket' remarks about Tifa and Cloud as individuals that I've seen - even though I LOVE them so much. Because yeah.. they're not the typical extroverted heros - just super fkn traumatised kids really. But as a formerly super traumatised kid, I just really enjoy the fact that they're both just really good people at heart that are struggling and want stability. I think it's so cool that the main heroes of the story are so very imperfect. They have communication issues that are frustrating to watch and Tifa has a truly horrendous fawn response to everything whereas Cloud is just so painfully avoidant.

Possibly also personally attached to them cause me and my husband are formerly traumatised wet blanket folk that strove for stability as soon as we could and live like elderly people at the ripe old age of 30. We're more fun now that we're less traumatised though but very boring lmfao. Weirdly my experience also makes me agree that Cloud (and Tifa imho) really should not be together properly until they're both mentally more stable. That's what I appreciated in the ambiguity of ACC. The love between them is definitely there in an obvious way but it wasn't obvious that they were actually engaged in a normal relationship (until for me the credits scene where he asks her to close the bar so they can have a fam day) and that was okay for me. I know my husband and I (childhood sweethearts irl) had to split for a couple years to process individual trauma before we could continue as a couple and lived together platonically in that time frame. Again.. probably projecting but I don't know. I love the humanness of their relationship and the kind of .. slightly sad and boring normalcy of being a couple navigating serious mental health challenges.

But yes, I also agree the relationship stuff shouldn't be the main focus. That's what upsets me about Aerith being portrayed as so pushy and why I appreciate Tifa being reluctant as a romantic partner. Cloud is really truly in no fit state at this point in the game to be doing that. Definitely got 'not sure I should have done that' vibes from Tifa post GS kiss in rebirth when they get off the skywheel. I think she's aware she shouldn't push it. Aerith on the other hand really pushes it and also just keeps bringing up Zack and I'm like girl, please go to therapy. All three of them need some serious fkn psychological treatment lol.

I agree that Aerith seems very manic. To be fair though, she's genuinely aware of the spectre of death hovering above her all the time and I'm positive that would make anyone super fkn messed up.

And gonna agree again re Zack. He really is/was too good and pure for the world of FFVII. He really is the ideal hero kind of character. Absolutely love him! Lovely boy with a lovely family and just generally a stable man. Heck in CC he even talks about his feelings openly. I Stan an emotionally healthy man. Zack really is the best.

As I had already stated, I've played the OG multiple times.

I don't think Tifa is a wet blanket, she is what you say she is, a truamatised child. I agree with you 10000000% percent and I'm glad I didn't type it out first (LOL), Cloud should not be in a relationship, I don't think Tifa should either, (Aerith is gone but if she wasn't alive I'd say the same thing) I think they both need help. I don't neccessarily feel like 'just being there' is enough. I don't blame either of them for how they are, but I feel like there are SOME benefits to having them paired of with those who have not only more conviction, but more self-belief, and are able to shed those believes and stability onto others (Zakkura and Aerti really are the MVPs huh SE STOP BEING COWARDS). I'm hiding it in this block of text so no-one but you reads it (lmao) but as someone who is on anti-psychotics for reasons IRL I couldn't imagine being Cloud and then, on top, having to deal with romance on top of it all and then, on top of that, being wedged in a 3 way square. (This is what I mean by personal bias). And I'll be really, real honest, I feel like Cloud is vulnerable. (Quick edit, when I say 'vulnerable', I don't mean in his actions. I feel like hes a vulnerable person, or, someone who could be easily led by anyone around him / isn't in control of his thoughts and emotions / needs assistance in the field of generally existing.) I don't feel like either girl should be pursuing him when he doesnt know what he wants but hey, its not real life, its media, so it isn't that serious (ha).

As a fellow truamatised person, for mental health being as big as a theme as it is in these games, boy is it not only written bizzarely but the majority of shippers just don't seem to care about it. CA's see Tifa as some boring pity-hungry nobody and CT's see Aerith as a crazy, desperate whore. In reality, Gaia is filled with horrors that are PRIMARILY man-made, and no-one gets a reprieve from it. It's sad to say, but sometimes, love isn't enough. Just throwing people at each other isn't enough (and this is why I've never really liked the last disc 'fix Clouds mind in the LS' thing; they set up enough realism with his issues and then fix it away with magic? And then when they change face and make him depressed in AC, suddenly people are like 'Cloud is such an asshole for how he treats Tifa!' and its like huh? What is goinnnnnn' onnnnn!

(Side note, even Cloud brings up talking to Aerith about Zack in Tifas GS date so its like none of them can get him off their minds aha cries sobs pukes I love Zack so much.)

 

[thetriplerhyme]

I have to say I don't agree re the Kalm fight - even though I'm definitely a Cloud/Tifa gal. The apology for Kalm however - that definitely had romantic undertones.

- antis will always use angts again cloti. What I like about them is dynamic we know in real relationship there is no HAPPY EVER AFTER. AT some point in time you'll gonna find differences and fight.

This is what good about Cloti they we're like real couple--> they romance, they fight and knows how to make up with each other. That's what makes it stronger.

 

[Empyrea]

If I had my way (LMAO) but my ending ship is everyone lives in a big house as friends (and everyone lives). Cloud and Zack works as mercs and Tifa and Aerith run a bar together. And everyone is happy and there are no defined ships and the fanbase all gets along. ~

Unfortunately impossible. You can't ever satisfy everyone and trying to do so is just doomed to failure. Even in that scenario you gave, I guarantee you that there would still be ship wars. Just look at the Persona waifu wars lol

I mean, hey, if we're talking biases, I'd say this game betrayed me for shafting AerTi when they had such a good thing going in Remake. I'd also reiterate I'm not Cloud's biggest fan (cause I said that so far back), so I'm not a traditional Cloti as it were. But I'm not the writer, and I much prefer that they stick to their guns, my own interpretations be damned. As a member of their audience, my part is to see what they wanna show me through the end and take in experience as it comes. I won't always agree with it (my heart's still with AerTi) and it's not perfect, but it's got something good going for almost a lot of us.

 

[faefolk]

As I had already stated, I've played the OG multiple times.

I don't think Tifa is a wet blanket, she is what you say she is, a truamatised child. I agree with you 10000000% percent and I'm glad I didn't type it out first (LOL), Cloud should not be in a relationship, I don't think Tifa should either, (Aerith is gone but if she wasn't alive I'd say the same thing) I think they both need help. I don't neccessarily feel like 'just being there' is enough. I don't blame either of them for how they are, but I feel like there are SOME benefits to having them paired of with those who have not only more conviction, but more self-belief, and are able to shed those believes and stability onto others (Zakkura and Aerti really are the MVPs huh SE STOP BEING COWARDS). I'm hiding it in this block of text so no-one but you reads it (lmao) but as someone who is on anti-psychotics for reasons IRL I couldn't imagine being Cloud and then, on top, having to deal with romance on top of it all and then, on top of that, being wedged in a 3 way square. (This is what I mean by personal bias). And I'll be really, real honest, I feel like Cloud is vulnerable. (Quick edit, when I say 'vulnerable', I don't mean in his actions. I feel like hes a vulnerable person, or, someone who could be easily led by anyone around him / isn't in control of his thoughts and emotions / needs assistance in the field of generally existing.) I don't feel like either girl should be pursuing him when he doesnt know what he wants but hey, its not real life, its media, so it isn't that serious (ha).

As a fellow truamatised person, for mental health being as big as a theme as it is in these games, boy is it not only written bizzarely but the majority of shippers just don't seem to care about it. CA's see Tifa as some boring pity-hungry nobody and CT's see Aerith as a crazy, desperate whore. In reality, Gaia is filled with horrors that are PRIMARILY man-made, and no-one gets a reprieve from it. It's sad to say, but sometimes, love isn't enough. Just throwing people at each other isn't enough (and this is why I've never really liked the last disc 'fix Clouds mind in the LS' thing; they set up enough realism with his issues and then fix it away with magic? And then when they change face and make him depressed in AC, suddenly people are like 'Cloud is such an asshole for how he treats Tifa!' and its like huh? What is goinnnnnn' onnnnn!

(Side note, even Cloud brings up talking to Aerith about Zack in Tifas GS date so its like none of them can get him off their minds aha cries sobs pukes I love Zack so much.)

Yeah sorry that was my bad. I didn't see the other replies first

What the heck is Zakkura? I won't judge. I've randomly started reading Cloud/Seph time travel fix it fics so yanno lmao
Oh I know you didn't say wet blanket, that was all me haha. They're objectively pretty unexciting in comparison to many other cast members. But I dig it because saaaaame. Re your comments about them being with someone with more self belief... I kind of get that but again my outlook is coloured by my life experiences with my husband. We both have some serious childhood trauma and yeah.. we couldn't be together at our worst points but we did help one another through and it did work for us. So my view of Cloud and Tifas dynamic is like I dunno.. weirdly personal to me. They have similar personality types to me and my husband too so it's definitely my headcanon that they could make it work if they didn't rush things.

Also samesies with antipsychotics too (though I've been unmedicated and stable without for four years now, woo!) so I 10000000000% get what you say when you say Cloud is vulnerable. Again that's why I appreciate (from my perspective) the Tifa dynamic where every escalation has been Clouds own initiative and she seems to know that she should absolutely not push and be very careful navigating it. I think she is doing her best to help him but doesn't know how which is y'know... Fair.

I would agree again that the shipping discourse is often really uncomfortable from a mental health perspective. I appreciate the realism of FFVII so, so freaking much. And I absolutely loved Advent children too for being ballsy enough to show that Cloud is still traumatised and not okay because of course he isn't okay. And idk why they say he's treating Tifa badly because even Tifa doesn't think that in AC. She knows he's just hurting and that's okay. Like, she gets stern when it comes to their kids but as a Mom I totally get that. Other than that she is patient and understanding so idk why some shippers can't emulate that and realise that mental health problems don't just magically disappear.

Re the Golden Saucer date and Zack being brought up.. that just made me cringe for Tifa and Aerith because we know he's really just asking in reference to the Nibelheim conversation where he's like 'Zack drowned' I'm just like 'ohhh honey, nooo.'
Best Zack reference for the dates was 110% Yuffies. Best date. That made me misty eyed. Ughhhh I love that guy.

 

[faefolk]

- antis will always use angts again cloti. What I like about them is dynamic we know in real relationship there is no HAPPY EVER AFTER. AT some point in time you'll gonna find differences and fight.

This is what good about Cloti they we're like real couple--> they romance, they fight and knows how to make up with each other. That's what makes it stronger.

Oh yeah, I more meant I didn't see their relationship as developed enough at that point to see it as romantic. However resolving the issue with healthy communication made them closer in a way that did feel romantic. So it definitely developed the romance - just not until the resolution for me

 

[dazzze]

Yeah sorry that was my bad. I didn't see the other replies first

What the heck is Zakkura? I won't judge. I've randomly started reading Cloud/Seph time travel fix it fics so yanno lmao
Oh I know you didn't say wet blanket, that was all me haha. They're objectively pretty unexciting in comparison to many other cast members. But I dig it because saaaaame. Re your comments about them being with someone with more self belief... I kind of get that but again my outlook is coloured by my life experiences with my husband. We both have some serious childhood trauma and yeah.. we couldn't be together at our worst points but we did help one another through and it did work for us. So my view of Cloud and Tifas dynamic is like I dunno.. weirdly personal to me. They have similar personality types to me and my husband too so it's definitely my headcanon that they could make it work if they didn't rush things.

Also samesies with antipsychotics too (though I've been unmedicated and stable without for four years now, woo!) so I 10000000000% get what you say when you say Cloud is vulnerable. Again that's why I appreciate (from my perspective) the Tifa dynamic where every escalation has been Clouds own initiative and she seems to know that she should absolutely not push and be very careful navigating it. I think she is doing her best to help him but doesn't know how which is y'know... Fair.

I would agree again that the shipping discourse is often really uncomfortable from a mental health perspective. I appreciate the realism of FFVII so, so freaking much. And I absolutely loved Advent children too for being ballsy enough to show that Cloud is still traumatised and not okay because of course he isn't okay. And idk why they say he's treating Tifa badly because even Tifa doesn't think that in AC. She knows he's just hurting and that's okay. Like, she gets stern when it comes to their kids but as a Mom I totally get that. Other than that she is patient and understanding so idk why some shippers can't emulate that and realise that mental health problems don't just magically disappear.

Re the Golden Saucer date and Zack being brought up.. that just made me cringe for Tifa and Aerith because we know he's really just asking in reference to the Nibelheim conversation where he's like 'Zack drowned' I'm just like 'ohhh honey, nooo.'
Best Zack reference for the dates was 110% Yuffies. Best date. That made me misty eyed. Ughhhh I love that guy.

Zakkura is CloudxZack! It's surprisingly wholesome, then again, is there anyone that can't be fixed by that literal ray of sunshine bursting into their lives? And your take and experiences on Cloti are sweet. They have one game to show us that that sort of dynamic can be written as earnestly as that, but somehow I don't trust them and I expect Cloud to be fixed by Tifa 100 percent (like OG lol) without any of the nuance about the stuff that comes with mental health.

Oh yeses you so get it. Proud of you for getting off! I haven't been brave enough to stop yet but home to get there soon (everytime I'm like I don't need them I have a FF7 style past flashback and I'm like actually I'm good I'll stay on them LOL). I actually fell in love with FF7 all those years ago when I found out that the main protag was struggling with mental health, and after playing the OG I was in pieces. Halfly because I ADORE Cloud, and halfly because he deadass got fixed so easily and I'm here like where my Tifa wtf I want to be put together. The only thing I like about AC is depressed Cloud. Its a shame some people don't like the fact he has feelings.

I find your comments about Cloti way more compelling and interesting than what others parroted at me. I'd like to read Tifas reluctance to engage is her trying not to infringe on him, rather than how I initially read it, as 'she's wayyyyy too shy to make the first move uwu!' (God that comment made me think of all the "dominant sexy Cloud' comments I see on twitter and I scream)

DLC needed; Zack date. It's just him spinning the wheel over and over and Cloud trying to beat him up to stop.

 

[thetriplerhyme]

My thing with CA is that falling for a guy who reminds you of your dead bf isn't moving on and it never will be. So, from that POV alone I'm not into it. If her feelings for Cloud weren't rooted in her feelings for Zack, CA would stand a narrative chance but that's simply not the point of CA.

- if we put this in an equation and remove both Zack and Tifa on Cloud and Aerith's lives again i said this to one CA before THEY WONT BE ABLE TO FIND EACH OTHER. as said in article @insanehobbit before

There are moments between C/A that may seem romantic when taken on its own, but viewed within the context of the whole narrative, ultimately reveal that they aren’t quite right for each other, and in each other, they’re actually searching for someone else.

- Aerith is able to live a 'lie' and pretend everything's alright w/o Zack through Cloud and Cloud is able to live his 'soldier-persona' that he thinks strong enough to protect Tifa and be special for her. However in doing so in narrative of the story it also disrupts this to their true' roles.

For Aerith - Cloud is a distraction for her role as a cetra as she wont communicate with LS people if she keeps on remembering Zack and wont accept his death ( w/c she's able to achieve when she's separated from Cloud in ch13) -

Spoiler: click here

which is also why on next chapter ( if i remember correct if i'm wrong ) we're on Aerith's last dream date - w/c is a sign she's ready to face her fate and accept Zack's death. By doing so she's able to 'confess' and express how she feels and recognize the difference between love and like ( different kind of liking)

by accepting one's death she's able to let go those strong feelings holding her back and recognize she didnt like Cloud romantically but different kind of liking as friend and appreciate that although Zack's gone he's able to return as a 'memory'

For Cloud he is holding on to that 'soldier-persona' but makes him loses his real self and thus prone to Sephiroth control.

- again another element how they're not a good couple ( narrative prospective of the story - both of them are living a lie ) although a different kind still a 'pretend' that they think will be good enough but no..

 

[faefolk]

Zakkura is CloudxZack! It's surprisingly wholesome, then again, is there anyone that can't be fixed by that literal ray of sunshine bursting into their lives? And your take and experiences on Cloti are sweet. They have one game to show us that that sort of dynamic can be written as earnestly as that, but somehow I don't trust them and I expect Cloud to be fixed by Tifa 100 percent (like OG lol) without any of the nuance about the stuff that comes with mental health.

Oh yeses you so get it. Proud of you for getting off! I haven't been brave enough to stop yet but home to get there soon (everytime I'm like I don't need them I have a FF7 style past flashback and I'm like actually I'm good I'll stay on them LOL). I actually fell in love with FF7 all those years ago when I found out that the main protag was struggling with mental health, and after playing the OG I was in pieces. Halfly because I ADORE Cloud, and halfly because he deadass got fixed so easily and I'm here like where my Tifa wtf I want to be put together. The only thing I like about AC is depressed Cloud. Its a shame some people don't like the fact he has feelings.

I find your comments about Cloti way more compelling and interesting than what others parroted at me. I'd like to read Tifas reluctance to engage is her trying not to infringe on him, rather than how I initially read it, as 'she's wayyyyy too shy to make the first move uwu!' (God that comment made me think of all the "dominant sexy Cloud' comments I see on twitter and I scream)

DLC needed; Zack date. It's just him spinning the wheel over and over and Cloud trying to beat him up to stop.

I could get around that. I'll have to suss on Ao3 haha.
I really hope they do Cloti justice in the final instalment. Personally I have hope they will. I personally feel like the OG definitely still retained a bittersweet element to it. It just was probably tricky to translate with the animation from that time. I'm actually really excited to see how it all goes because they've definitely really paid painstaking attention to Clouds mental instability in Rebirth. I think they did an amazing job - so yeah.. I have hope! I think he'll be relieved to feel more clear post Lifestream but I am assuming they'll keep the bittersweet (symphony, that's life) feel.

Hey, no shame in staying on if you need them! I had a pretty serious mental breakdown that lasted like three years and required seriously treatment but it wasn't actually a permanent thing just a very severe trauma response. If they help, it's brave to keep on them too!
Yes, the mental health themes were what drew me in too! I think Clouds struggle with his identity and his trauma is such a compelling story. Thankfully for me I didn't read it as a quick fix haha but definitely I can get how it can be interpreted that way. And oh yeah.. boy has hella PTSD in AC!

Oh good! I'm glad I argued my case well
Yeah I definitely don't read it as shy personally. Even in remake when he hands her the flower rather than focus on the romance she zeroes in on the 'five years thing' and straight away is thrown. And yeah there are a few similar incidents but you probably don't need a list haha. Even in Gongaga for their almost kiss she walks away and in the GS date I genuinely don't think she expected a kiss. (At the same time I won't bash her for going along with it because she obviously loves him) her body language and what she says when she gets off the gondola to me genuinely read like she felt like she'd kind of messed up. Not in that she doesn't want to kiss him - but that she is so aware that he isn't doing great. Mannnn, I'm so excited to watch all of this come to a head in the final part. Cause she's so distant and scared by the end of Rebirth. I also just don't think she's shy cause she's confident with everyone else and is also a bartender so would be used to navigating flirty dudes. I genuinely think her reluctance stems from her uncertainty and concern about his mental health.

Ohhhh Zack would have the best time haha. I could definitely see that devolving into a play fight I hope we get some cloud and Zack interactions. They're some of my favourite bits in ACC.

 

[Maidenofwar]

Does anyone else find it adorable that Barret has kind of antagonistic relationship/interactions with basically everyone except Tifa and Aerith? xD Although I know it might come across as Barret being hard on Cloud, Red XIII, Yuffie etc to some but in the end he really does care for them all. In Chapter 13 I'm rolling because Cid is still kind of cocky and I think that triggers Barret a bit and Cid's like I'm not letting another man tell me what to do haha. I hope and think they will come to appreciate each other more in the third game

 

[Rin]

- if we put this in an equation and remove both Zack and Tifa on Cloud and Aerith's lives again i said this to one CA before THEY WONT BE ABLE TO FIND EACH OTHER. as said in article @insanehobbit before

There are moments between C/A that may seem romantic when taken on its own, but viewed within the context of the whole narrative, ultimately reveal that they aren’t quite right for each other, and in each other, they’re actually searching for someone else.

- Aerith is able to live a 'lie' and pretend everything's alright w/o Zack through Cloud and Cloud is able to live his 'soldier-persona' that he thinks strong enough to protect Tifa and be special for her. However in doing so in narrative of the story it also disrupts this to their true' roles.

For Aerith - Cloud is a distraction for her role as a cetra as she wont communicate with LS people if she keeps on remembering Zack and wont accept his death ( w/c she's able to achieve when she's separated from Cloud in ch13) -

Spoiler: click here

which is also why on next chapter ( if i remember correct if i'm wrong ) we're on Aerith's last dream date - w/c is a sign she's ready to face her fate and accept Zack's death. By doing so she's able to 'confess' and express how she feels and recognize the difference between love and like ( different kind of liking)

by accepting one's death she's able to let go those strong feelings holding her back and recognize she didnt like Cloud romantically but different kind of liking as friend and appreciate that although Zack's gone he's able to return as a 'memory'

For Cloud he is holding on to that 'soldier-persona' but makes him loses his real self and thus prone to Sephiroth control.

- again another element how they're not a good couple ( narrative prospective of the story - both of them are living a lie ) although a different kind still a 'pretend' that they think will be good enough but no..

Re: your dream date note

Spoiler

I feel like no one's talking enough about how Stamp merch is present at every single vendor. Now, because I'm a Zack fan, I chose it every time and got rejected lmaoooo which I thought was really funny but this is supposed to be "Aerith's dream" and in her dream she's literally shoving Zack symbolism in your face everywhere you go--another way of telling the player that she hasn't moved on.

 

[LunarTarotGirl]

So I'm in the extremely unique situation of as a Clerith believing since I played OG that Cloud and Tifa are romantic and accepting them as canon.

But bc I'm this unique position I see everything so different. It's hard to articulate.

I actually find the way CTs in fandom describe CT as what turned me off the ship for years and I enjoyed it a lot more when I got to see it for myself.

I admittedly did not like the pinnacle of CT scenes the Lifestream scene in OG not bc it disproved my ship (I didn't know what shipping or discourse was lol) but because it was too "fate made everything so these two are forever intertwined." I didn't see any struggle any obstacles in their way to fix Cloud it was all just too convenient maybe how easily it's fixed? I also don't usually ship childhood friends bc it never feels earned when two people are destined for eachother and the whole Tifa is his everything Tifa is the reason he comes back, his sole motivation. This man doesnt have a single thought it was all Tifa. And... Yeah I didn't vibe with that. At all.

I HATE this interpretation of CA as well from CA extremists. I ranted about this on my blog and people responded like oh so you don't like CT? And it's like

I like them in certain situations lol.

But I actually started shipping CT when Advent Children released. Yep. The one most CTs hate. I ate that up bc I loved seeing them overcome struggles I didn't exactly see in OG. What actually convinced me I liked Tifa was her telling Cloud to stop running. It felt like they were getting stronger together even though they were in the moment drifting apart "instead of we're together bc we belong together." And how he returns in the end and apologizes and together they fight? I was all over that. I love it.

So yeah idk. And now in Rebirth I feel exactly the same. I like this so much better because they're shown as individuals with problems working through them together not a ying yang blob of romance destined for eachother. I really like that. And I got the Tifa date for the GS tour and I'm actually actively enjoying it bc it actually feels earned.

Same with CA the sad scenes are actually more of my favorite than the banter and when they clash but still stick together and support eachother I really just like them more.

 

[liuliuliu]

Does anyone else find it adorable that Barret has kind of antagonistic relationship/interactions with basically everyone except Tifa and Aerith? xD Although I know it might come across as Barret being hard on Cloud, Red XIII, Yuffie etc to some but in the end he really does care for them all. In Chapter 13 I'm rolling because Cid is still kind of cocky and I think that triggers Barret a bit and Cid's like I'm not letting another man tell me what to do haha. I hope and think they will come to appreciate each other more in the third game

Barret rarely has any interaction with Aerith other then their synergy attack.

EDIT: and it is funny cause you can see Barret and Yuffie interact with each other a lot in the plot and even in background. There are so many times in the back ground they showed Yuffie do her little show with Barret, and Barret either shoo her away or play along. They show it completely with no reasons. They choose to show it a lot between Barret and Yuffie, but so reluctant to put interactions between Aerith and Barret. There rarely even an eye contact between these 2 outside the must have plot to have them talk to each other.
Cid has more interaction with Aerith than Barret through out the game honestly. I literally hate CA shippers that make everyone and everything around Aerith.

 

[Eerie]

I have to say I don't agree re the Kalm fight - even though I'm definitely a Cloud/Tifa gal. The apology for Kalm however - that definitely had romantic undertones.

Kalm was just a crazy alien manipulated mess man. Ughhh.

Nah the Kalm fight is textbook romance because you want your main pair to have tension and resolve it. If there is no Kalm fight, there is no Under Junon reconciliation (also using romance tropes, yes). Romance fans know lol, show this to Bridgerton fans and they'll tell you it's romance in the making lol. Welonz when she played through it was like "OMG this is romance drama, I eat this up" lol.

Does anyone else find it adorable that Barret has kind of antagonistic relationship/interactions with basically everyone except Tifa and Aerith? xD Although I know it might come across as Barret being hard on Cloud, Red XIII, Yuffie etc to some but in the end he really does care for them all. In Chapter 13 I'm rolling because Cid is still kind of cocky and I think that triggers Barret a bit and Cid's like I'm not letting another man tell me what to do haha. I hope and think they will come to appreciate each other more in the third game

Barret is a dad to the whole gang lmao and I love him for that.

@LunarTarotGirl I knew you'd enjoy CT more in Rebirth lol. I know your tastes xD

 

[LunarTarotGirl]

@Eerie Loll. Yes, you do. I'm enjoying the sad CA stuff too. Honestly everything so far is better than Remake to me.

 

[Rin]

@Eerie Loll. Yes, you do. I'm enjoying the sad CA stuff too. Honestly everything so far is better than Remake to me.

I like sad, tragic romances too which is why CA is like ... My Vibe but they don't hit the mark because Zack is a massive wedge in the narrative. Now, when they made CC I was like "Ah, yes, this is my taste." Because I like the drama, the sadness, the yearning--which Rebirth dialled up to 1000x.

I love CA "aesthetically" as in their colour palettes look really nice together, but I see/feel no physical chemistry which is boring to me (more so in remake/rebirth than the OG bc.... pixels). And they don't really have any conflict other than "We're both sad about Zack but one of us actually doesn't know he's sad about Zack."

This is probably why I like when she shows signs of envy and jealousy toward CT because I need some sort of conflict to feel invested in them, whether that's romantically or platonically. Before everything just kinda went too smoothly up until Sephiroth took control of Cloud and then she died. But Sephiroth taking control of Cloud impacts everyone, not just Aerith, so there's still no Clerith-specific conflict outside of the Zack-shaped elephant in the room.