SPOILERS LTD Remake — It's like New Coke except ... no, it's exactly like New Coke

[AncientGrimoire]

Cause there is never going to be an acceptance of defeat. Too much time has been invested. In some cases decades now. And there’s always a rally whenever new stuff comes out.

The next wave will be when the Ultimania is released in Japan.

 

[shady]

Also that Aerith theme song trailer for Rebirth, you cannot tell me SE didn't know they were baiting Cloud and Aerith fans like hell with the "trip and fall look they almost kiss" scene from the Gondola date, only to then give the only kiss in the game to Cloud and Tifa. There's no way that's not on purpose i'm sorry

 

[hytekz]

A pair gets a kiss, the other does not.
Even with it being "optional" it should've ended the debates, and yet, it seems it's still going stronger than ever with awful takes from both sides.

 

[Someonesbunny]

And I do have to wonder why. Do they actually want to solve the LTD or not? For years I was under the impression they wanted to end it.

I'm actually thinking it might be more of a "yes, but not yet" lol it's still a story hook, and clearly a compelling enough hook to keep us coming back here, but I suppose I can only speak for myself.

And also, it's not actually uncompelling to tell the story of Aerith as wanting to move on and trying to make Cloud fit into into her life in a way he never will - they really do seem to have wanted to lean into the tragedy of her situation, but I just don't think they paced this out well enough. A lot of these moments kind of feel like they're just shoehorning anything at all in order to say that they added something to progress this theme, or else, maybe it's the fact that it is shoehorned that becomes it.

I don't really know with these guys though lol I'm still trying to understand what happened in the FF13 series.

 

[LNK]

Again I would agree to a point, but then why are we still in here debating this mess?

More than likely because new fans are cycling in. Plus of course you have the extremists digging in their heels and being toxic

 

[Someonesbunny]

A pair gets a kiss, the other does not.
Even with it being "optional" it should've ended the debates, and yet, it seems it's still going stronger than ever with awful takes from both sides.

I don't know about both sides in the case of the kiss lol - there is only one group who would argue the absolutely in-your-face implication of the first on-screen kiss for the protagonist of FF7 in 3 decades as anything but confirmation.

 

[LNK]

Also that Aerith theme song trailer for Rebirth, you cannot tell me SE didn't know they were baiting Cloud and Aerith fans like hell with the "trip and fall look they almost kiss" scene from the Gondola date, only to then give the only kiss in the game to Cloud and Tifa. There's no way that's not on purpose i'm sorry

I really don't think the devs approach their flagship game in that manner, sorry

 

[Rin]

And I do have to wonder why. Do they actually want to solve the LTD or not? For years I was under the impression they wanted to end it.

I think it's because in their minds it is solved lol they don't think about it the way the fans do at all but they want the fans to be happy so they try to give everyone something for fun. I think that's as deep as it goes for them tbh because if we look at CA narratively, there's nothing that points to them as a viable ship. All of their genuine romantic interactions lead us on a road straight back to Zack. They don't really have anything of their "own" which is purposeful. The things they did have were taken away (like Clouds promise to take her on the Highwind/an airship one day) because they don't really intend to portray CA in a mutually romantic way.

 

[shady]

I really don't think the devs approach their flagship game in that manner, sorry

Not the devs, they wouldn't have edited it together.

 

[Rin]

Again I would agree to a point, but then why are we still in here debating this mess?

Tbh I'd say no one in here is even arguing anyway cause it's really more of an echo chamber of agreement lmao but I think it just gives us all a space to discuss this aspect of the game so people can theorize and talk about other aspects of it in peace.

 

[GamerSkull]

To be honest, I think it’s only an echo chamber because most of us agree, which is fine.

But if a bunch of Clerith fans suddenly showed up, I have no qualms welcoming them and engaging in respectful debate.

Because debate can be fun, and I’m always open to listen to other perspective. Until they say stuff like Tifa is toxic or something… then I’d probably just die inside.

 

[LNK]

Not the devs, they wouldn't have edited it together.

Whoever edited things. I don't think they care like that. I'm open to being wrong though. Do you have proof that SE will troll fans like that?

 

[shady]

Whoever edited things. I don't think they care like that. I'm open to being wrong though. Do you have proof that SE will troll fans like that?

Course not, but its not outside the realms of possibility either that they knew of the reaction it would get because it looks like they're about to kiss -- I mean a trailer is meant to get a reaction -- but they obviously knew that wasn't gonna be the case. All i'm saying is if I was a Cloud and Aerith shipper I feel like I would have a right to be aggrieved at that considering what actually happens in the game.

By the way apologies if it seems like i'm coming across in a bad way I'm not intending it to be that way. Call it frustration if you will haha

 

[insanehobbit]

I think if they were actually afraid to "end" the LTD, there's no way in hell they would have Cloud kiss Tifa in this part of the story, while Aerith is still very much alive. This entire Remake trilogy is about clarifying misconceptions, and obviously that was a big one.

I will say, I think the TGA trailer was obvious bait but still incredibly out-of-pocket. Like if I was baited and disrespected like that I would never give SE another dime, but I suppose the mutually parasitic relationship continues?

The only reason I'm posting in this thread is because there's really no "debate" anymore. I deliberately avoided this thread post-Remake, but now this is just a nice place to actually discuss the characters and their relationships. If the Twitter Cleriths show up tomorrow, I'm peacing out again, lol.

As for the extremely bad takes, there's nothing SE could possibly do to get them to go away. Some people have committed nearly three decades of their lives to this, they're not gonna change their stripes now. But personally, I just don't care, lol? I don't seek them out, and if I do happen across them, I just laugh and move on. Like I'm also not out here deliberately looking up half-star reviews of my favorite films on Letterboxd just to get my blood to boil, so I don't really understand why people get so huffy over bad takes from people with like 3 followers. But maybe this is just me getting old, lol.

 

[Rin]

To be honest, I think it’s only an echo chamber because most of us agree, which is fine.

But if a bunch of Clerith fans suddenly showed up, I have no qualms welcoming them and engaging in respectful debate.

Because debate can be fun, and I’m always open to listen to other perspective. Until they say stuff like Tifa is toxic or something… then I’d probably just die inside.

The issue is that most of them who do want to debate it .... don't have nice things to say or nice ways of doing it. We do have some very nice and respectful CA fans in here but there's not much to debate since they're pretty accepting of the story as it's told.

I just feel like... I don't know. It's really hard to debate CA vs CT without some disingenuity being present bc you get arguments like, "Tifa wants a hero, so Zack is actually her more of her type." Which ... I refuse to believe that anyone genuinely believes that because it's such a gross misunderstanding of Tifa but CA fans have been telling me this since I was 16 and I still see this weird take on Twitter in present day.

 

[shady]

I think if they were actually afraid to "end" the LTD, there's no way in hell they would have Cloud kiss Tifa in this part of the story, while Aerith is still very much alive. This entire Remake trilogy is about clarifying misconceptions, and obviously that was a big one.

I will say, I think the TGA trailer was obvious bait but still incredibly out-of-pocket. Like if I was baited and disrespected like that I would never give SE another dime, but I suppose the mutually parasitic relationship continues?

The only reason I'm posting in this thread is because there's really no "debate" anymore. I deliberately avoided this thread post-Remake, but now this is just a nice place to actually discuss the characters and their relationships. If the Twitter Cleriths show up tomorrow, I'm peacing out again, lol.

As for the extremely bad takes, there's nothing SE could possibly do to get them to go away. Some people have committed nearly three decades of their lives to this, they're not gonna change their stripes now. But personally, I just don't care, lol? I don't seek them out, and if I do happen across them, I just laugh and move on. Like I'm also not out here deliberately looking up half-star reviews of my favorite films on Letterboxd just to get my blood to boil, so I don't really understand why people get so huffy over bad takes from people with like 3 followers. But maybe this is just me getting old, lol.

Hey i'm absolutely up for being proven wrong. After Rebirth and considering Nomura's words about the relationship moving up and Nojima's words about there being less room for interpretation this is about as close as we've come to the LTD "ending" as it were, in bright neon lights across a new set of games. It's all set up for them to really put the final nail into all the bad takes in Part 3. My only hope is they follow through with what they've set up, but I guess a small part of me thinks they just won't be able to help themselves either because we've been on this old ass broken down train for 27 odd years. Call me jaded and old too

 

[Gym Leader Devil]

On topic, I was always onboard with the idea that the folks at SE largely didn't give a shit about the LTD. There was an actual live triangle in the OG, it served it's narrative function, it ended. As far as they're concerned, there really wasn't anything to debate. As for the REs, I figure there is a live triangle because it's a RE-story, and it can serve a narrative function again (giving us character actions to enjoy us never bad). They might be trolling a bit, knowing everything they do will engender debate, but I really never thought they thought about it all that much.

Less on topic, I've had two different thoughts that I'm considering basing a whole thread off of, specifically regarding characters fighting styles and likely training methods (this came up concerning Rufus being abnormally tough for a rich kid and Cloti synergy attacks being gorgeous). Being as this is the most active thread in the forum I thought I'd bring the idea here to gauge interest. Yay, nay, meh? GTFOoH, maybe?

 

[null]

Yeah, definitely. But... sometimes you can't always get what you want, so it's better to just accept reality and then go out and make your own content if that's what brings you joy. You can't strong arm a whole game company into doing what you want. Hasn't worked in their favour even one time.

Unfortunately, that's exactly what happened with Witcher 3. A bunch of Triss Merigold fans strong armed CDPR and demanded equal treatment with Geralt's indisputable from-page-one love interest Yennefer. And the Triss fans got exactly what they wanted, a bunch of in-game, out-of-character recognition and support. Being cheered on by Ciri of all people? The fuuuug? With CDPR saying they hoped it would "stop the infighting" (that would have never have started had they followed the books, lmao).

Not a game but same thing with Riverdale (oh how I miss that glorious piece of shit). The shipper inmates ran that asylum. You thought Jughead was ace? Suck it representation. Get that beautiful beanied hunk a woman ASAP. Even if it's the most embarrassing sounding ship ever. Ok, 2nd most embarrassing after Vughead.

And then there's Aerith, for whom being dead has fewer downsides than being a Twilight vampire. Instead of the sudden, meaningless death that made gaming history, this chick had a farewell tour that would have made Kobe Bryant blush. What's there to mourn? We don't need no stinkin' mourning scene. She's immortal. She'll disappear when Sephiroth does, which we can safely file under never. No one's ever really gone. I can't prove SE is caving to fan pressure, but... they sure seem like they're trying hard to please fans who wanted her alive regardless?

The point is, I agree with your point. You can't always get what you want (there's your House M.D. reference @Empyrea). We really should take charge of our own imaginations when fiction doesn't go our way. Unfortunately, it's never been easier for fans to get organized and demand the plot be sacrificed on the altar of fanservice. And if it's a publically traded company? They're listening.

 

[null]

Yeah this place is a literal sanctuary for civil, great, healthy, and respectful discussions, discourse and debate. Feel truly blessed to have discovered this place.

Which is hilarious because this is the LTD. We're supposed to be a hive of scum and villainy, yet we have consistently classy, high-quality discussion here

 

[Rin]

Unfortunately, that's exactly what happened with Witcher 3. A bunch of Triss Merigold fans strong armed CDPR and demanded equal treatment with Geralt's indisputable from-page-one love interest Yennefer. And the Triss fans got exactly what they wanted, a bunch of in-game, out-of-character recognition and support. Being cheered on by Ciri of all people? The fuuuug? With CDPR saying they hoped it would "stop the infighting" (that would have never have started had they followed the books, lmao).

Not a game but same thing with Riverdale (oh how I miss that glorious piece of shit). The shipper inmates ran that asylum. You thought Jughead was ace? Suck it representation. Get that beautiful beanied hunk a woman ASAP. Even if it's the most embarrassing sounding ship ever. Ok, 2nd most embarrassing after Vughead.

And then there's Aerith, for whom being dead has fewer downsides than being a Twilight vampire. Instead of the sudden, meaningless death that made gaming history, this chick had a farewell tour that would have made Kobe Bryant blush. What's there to mourn? We don't need no stinkin' mourning scene. She's immortal. She'll disappear when Sephiroth does, which we can safely file under never. No one's ever really gone. I can't prove SE is caving to fan pressure, but... they sure seem like they're trying hard to please fans who wanted her alive regardless?

The point is, I agree with your point. You can't always get what you want (there's your House M.D. reference @Empyrea). We really should take charge of our own imaginations when fiction doesn't go our way. Unfortunately, it's never been easier for fans to get organized and demand the plot be sacrificed on the altar of fanservice. And if it's a publically traded company? They're listening.

You're not wrong at all. I guess our saving grace is that they're a pretty small fandom with a very loud voice. They can't even organize well enough to win polls; they don't buy Aerith merch; a lot of them don't even buy or play the games. Money talks and it talks loud, louder than tweets and tumblr rants, so I guess we've lucked out that these extremists haven't learned to make a point with their dollar in 27 years lol

 

[GamerSkull]

I’m sorry I still can’t get over this idea that Tifa is responsible for Cloud’s mental state and is toxic.

His feelings of inadequacy (and I truly feel bad for him) are from himself… and the further complications come from Jenova who exists within him because of Hojo.

Tifa literally had nothing to do with any of this.

 

[Ryushikaze]

tbh, I find it difficult to compare Cloud/Aerith's dynamic to any other relationship in media, because how many other stories have a woman being attracted to another man because he reminds her of her ex AND for the reveal to be that said man was actually pretending to be her ex/was best friends with him all along? There are so many layers/so many other people outside of the relationship who complicate it.

Inu-Yasha. In reverse. Sort of.

I'm actually thinking it might be more of a "yes, but not yet" lol it's still a story hook, and clearly a compelling enough hook to keep us coming back here, but I suppose I can only speak for myself.

And also, it's not actually uncompelling to tell the story of Aerith as wanting to move on and trying to make Cloud fit into into her life in a way he never will - they really do seem to have wanted to lean into the tragedy of her situation, but I just don't think they paced this out well enough. A lot of these moments kind of feel like they're just shoehorning anything at all in order to say that they added something to progress this theme, or else, maybe it's the fact that it is shoehorned that becomes it.

I don't really know with these guys though lol I'm still trying to understand what happened in the FF13 series.

In the beginning a god gave birth to the universe. This was considered a mistake by all involved. After numerous bandaid fixes, and then an attempt to fix everything by literally fucking with time itself the god chose to force a hard sector crash to restore from a previous state. Lightning, whom he chose for this task realized what was going on, hijacked the process and moved to france. The end.

Not a game but same thing with Riverdale (oh how I miss that glorious piece of shit). The shipper inmates ran that asylum. You thought Jughead was ace? Suck it representation. Get that beautiful beanied hunk a woman ASAP. Even if it's the most embarrassing sounding ship ever. Ok, 2nd most embarrassing after Vughead.

In fairness to Riverdale, ace jughead was relatively new development and it's not like they were paying any attention to any of the stories from the last 80s years of comics anyways. In condemnation of Riverdale, everything else, but most especially that they never had a Jughead evil twin arc.
Though ironically the show could have been saved if they had done a rug pull finale and everything from the second season onwards or maybe more was just Jug's creative writing wortks.

I’m sorry I still can’t get over this idea that Tifa is responsible for Cloud’s mental state and is toxic.

His feelings of inadequacy (and I truly feel bad for him) are from himself… and the further complications come from Jenova who exists within him because of Hojo.

Tifa literally had nothing to do with any of this.

Tifa is doing overtime in letting Cloud know she believes in him. And she does. She believes in him even when he's at his worst. Multiple times. Like, even when she believed Cloud egged her on... she still went out to go meet him at the water tower because she wanted to get closer to him. She dressed up nice for the SOLDIER visit in the hopes that Cloud would be there.

 

[eleamaya]

how many other stories have a woman being attracted to another man because he reminds her of her ex AND for the reveal to be that said man was actually pretending to be her ex/was best friends with him all along?

I dont know how many but one of my favorite shounen/sport manga have it.
Title is "Aoki Densetsu SHOOT!" by Tsukasa Ooshima, ongoing in 1990-1996 (37 volumes) and won Manga Awards in 1994.

The story to me is about the main character becoming his senior’s successor/legacy as he's given the No.10 jersey. His senior died because of leukemia when public was dreaming and hoping of him becoming JPN Rising Star. (You probably won't believe me if I said he died making an epic LAST STAND) The main character feels the burden of it despite his own talent and always being nervous in the field since media now give him the attention his senior got, can't make any goal. And guess what? His senior has a girlfriend he leaves. The main character himself already have a crush on his classmate but still attracted to his senior's ex who actively pursue him and try to convince him that he can become great footballer just like his senior since the two are alike. It boosts his confidence but instead of becoming his own self in the field, HE COPY HIS SENIOR AND IT WORKS, goal and goal are made. Not only that, whenever they go on date, she always take him to the place she went date before with his senior, she also gives him a drinks that is her ex's fave etc. Well, he knows that but enjoy and play along with it....till he finally makes a blunder in the match. He realizes his mistake and tells her "we can't meet again" because he isn't his senior. She cries and apologize because she has been feeling lonely since her boyfriend is gone. Long story short, with a slow burn romance that I hardly have patient with, he finally ends up with his classmate. And ofc he could carry his senior's dream along with his own and surpass him.

A live action movie was made in 1994 and played by SMAP members but story was focused on that love square.

I detail how similar it is with SOLDIER!Cloud and Aerith on my Tumblr blog if you didnt mind to read

If the Twitter Cleriths show up tomorrow, I'm peacing out again, lol.

If a bunch of Clerith fans suddenly showed up, I have no qualms welcoming them and engaging in respectful debate.

We're supposed to be a hive of scum and villainy, yet we have consistently classy, high-quality discussion here

I spotted few Clerith shippers in main Spoiler thread. I recognize one of them has same name as their twitter account.
Mind to invite them here? Haha

 

[null]

I’m sorry I still can’t get over this idea that Tifa is responsible for Cloud’s mental state and is toxic.

His feelings of inadequacy (and I truly feel bad for him) are from himself… and the further complications come from Jenova who exists within him because of Hojo.

Tifa literally had nothing to do with any of this.

Yep, ol' Toxic Tifa they call her. The woman Cloud kisses while staying true to Aerith's love story. It was just a kiss between siblings so it doesn't count. Well, as long as they're not anime siblings. (Protip: never ever watch anime with Sister in the name)

Also did they forget Cloud literally called Tifa beautiful lol

 

[Someonesbunny]

In the beginning a god gave birth to the universe. This was considered a mistake by all involved. After numerous bandaid fixes, and then an attempt to fix everything by literally fucking with time itself the god chose to force a hard sector crash to restore from a previous state. Lightning, whom he chose for this task realized what was going on, hijacked the process and moved to france. The end.

OH! Oh my God, France! Of course!

That must be when she started endorsing Louis Vuitton!