SPOILERS LTD Remake — It's like New Coke except ... no, it's exactly like New Coke

[Eerie]

I think one can claim he reacts to both the girls’ bathing suits. (Yes, it’s pretty obvious it’s Tifa but ‘reasonable doubt.)

It's Tifa theme that plays tho.

 

[AncientGrimoire]

(Oh yes, hello everyone, I'm new as well. I've been a CT since 1997 and have mostly lurked on Twitter for fanart and memes since Remake was rolled out. Came here when someone linked to one of insanehobbit's masterful posts and decided to join in on the great LTD discourse happening here that doesn't seem to happen anywhere else on the internet. )

Yeah this place is a literal sanctuary for civil, great, healthy, and respectful discussions, discourse and debate. Feel truly blessed to have discovered this place.

 

[GamerSkull]

It's him indulging and comforting her, definitely. He knows that Aerith wanted something romantic, however he had his own boundaries: he didn't want her to take his arm, but accepted to comfort her with that handholding. That's how I see it and that's why Aerith does it again to comfort him, because that's what he did at that time.


There was a message posted earlier today (for me ) that basically said that the LTD kills any talk about the game in itself and I agree.

The LTD has had this problem of looking at scenes taken out of context to argue for one side or the other; however a story must not be analysed out of context, when we play we feel emotions and have thoughts that are what the devs want to make us feel/think (or maybe not, maybe they botched, that is possible too xD). Since REMAKE I've tried to step away from that to understand the characters and story better; personally I feel that in FFVIIR, the story is carried by the characters, which is why I enjoy analysing them, to try to understand what is shown to me, and to try to understand where the story is going. This is why I've never believed that Aerith would live, not one second - and it was the red dress that gave it to me.

Talking about the LTD is, for me, a way to gauge my anlysing skills, to see what others think and open myself to other theories. On some things I will be adamant, on others I will ponder and try to understand. Make no mistake, all these dates, we are supposed to watch them all. Because it gives us understanding on where Cloud stands with everyone, what type of relationship they have - which is great because it also allows for those characters to be developped in unique ways; I yelled when I saw Yuffie talking about Zack,, I was like "OMG this is referencing CC/R and OMG Yuffie crushed on him!!!" It's those moments too that fans love in FFVII, to see their own favourite being expanded upon like this. In this regard, perhaps the Cloti date was the least telling because we didn't learn anything new, however it was the most satisfying as it tied all their relationship for the past chapters. In contrast, I think the Aerith date explains the last chapters.

I agree they are meant to all be watched, if for no other reason that there is an in-game progress tracker for all five of them and the implication is the devs expect many fans to complete them all.

But I agree with what you said too as they are all meant to be more to characterize the characters.

 

[GamerSkull]

It's Tifa theme that plays tho.

Reasonable doubt is CA’s greatest weapon. Unless it’s explicit, they can pass it off as a non-thing.

That’s been one of the primary issues surrounding CT.

The kiss blows it out of the water. But being an optional scene, allows for them to do the same.

 

[Stiggie]

Reasonable doubt is CA’s greatest weapon. Unless it’s explicit, they can pass it off as a non-thing.

"Reasonable"

 

[Hellenic]

Since you get points with Either Aerith or Tifa depending on whose bathing suit matches your taste I assumed that both had a version of that scene where they're more "highlighted" if you will. Does only Tifa have one?

The first reaction from Cloud where he makes the "sun is too hot" excuse is always the same, but the follow up depends on the outfit matches. You can have a reaction to both Tifa and Aerith or just one or the other after.

 

[Gym Leader Devil]

Their best weapon is a rusty old knife handle with no blade. It's used to hit yourself between the eyes to induce trauma based blindness and amnesia when you see Cloud and Tifa together

Also, this Italian Tifa thing, I'm curious but concerned for my mental health, what is? Like is this some Cloud Mows the Lawn shizz?

 

[Empyrea]

Their best weapon is a rusty old knife handle with no blade. It's used to hit yourself between the eyes to induce trauma based blindness and amnesia when you see Cloud and Tifa together

Also, this Italian Tifa thing, I'm curious but concerned for my mental health, what is? Like is this some Cloud Mows the Lawn shizz?

It's the "incident" when someone from the Italian senate entered a zoom conference call and people saw his Tifa-related porn. Or something along that line x3 Someone correct me if I'm wrong. xP

 

[GamerSkull]

Their best weapon is a rusty old knife handle with no blade. It's used to hit yourself between the eyes to induce trauma based blindness and amnesia when you see Cloud and Tifa together

Also, this Italian Tifa thing, I'm curious but concerned for my mental health, what is? Like is this some Cloud Mows the Lawn shizz?

It’s a bit old, but as I understand it someone played porn of Tifa and Cloud during an Italian senate meeting and it was seen by all participants.

Now my friends like to joke that Tifa is Ms. Italy.

 

[Gym Leader Devil]

Ah, nowhere near as bad as Cloud Mows the Lawn then, I'm relieved. People need to learn how to zoom, nothing like seeing a prosecuting attorney forget people can see he's not wearing pants if he gets up

 

[Hellenic]

It's the "incident" when someone from the Italian senate entered a zoom conference call and people saw his Tifa-related porn. Or something along that line x3 Someone correct me if I'm wrong. xP

Iirc they had shared the room code in a more public fashion so someone jumped in and played some Tifa and Cloud smut on screen.

 

[GamerSkull]

"Reasonable"

Well, that’s just the term. Basically my point is that, unless it’s explicit, CA fans can always hand wave it away.

Although I suppose we did get something explicit and they still did that so…. Oh well.

 

[LunarTarotGirl]

Honestly, they probably will since they confirmed the one in her resolution scene isn't "our Aerith" in the Remake ultimania. All they'd have to say is that the resolution scene Aerith and the dream date Aerith are the same one, I think.



Not sure about the dating, but yes they're the same mocap actors for Clive and Jill as well.

All I can say is that as Clouds mocap actor, he'd know better than most how CA touches and body language are supposed to be read/what they're meant to convey but I still think calling them sibling-like at this point in the story isn't totally accurate since Aerith is trying to explore a romantic connection.

A JP speaking friend of mine told me when people tease others as having "a big sister vibe" nee-chan, it's not said in the same way Westerners would. So they don't mean it's literally sibling like. It's about the dynamic where Aerith pulls Cloud around (very gui gui)Also if you recall Claudia says Cloud should find someone who is "chotto-neesan". So someone more mature but the word used there is a bit sister like. She's not referring to anyone sibling like.

Also I was into Jpop for a while and the band members would refer to some lady guests as nee-san and in the same breath talk about how pretty they are so.. Yeah

It's like a type of personality more than him saying they're actually like siblings.

 

[Gym Leader Devil]

There were Ultimanias that were as explicit as can be years ago. I remember it well. You could have an actual sex scene under the Highwind and it'd be "poor Cloud is so depressed his one and only koibito Aerith is dead he's having meaningless sex with that slut Tifa to numb the pain!". And you know I speak truth.

 

[null]

View attachment 14979

I’m kind of seeing this sort of parallel, with the overall emotion and feeling of Aerith and Cloud’s Gold Saucer date. To anyone who’s seen this scene from the film and knows the context behind it may also similarly get what I’m hopefully getting at by drawing this parallel.

This is just my personal interpretation of it, but this is the emotion it evoked for me.

Aerith and Cloud’s Gold Saucer date is beautiful, gorgeously shot and animated, but there is also this air of a deep melancholy to it, and it reminded me of this scene from Half-Blood Prince.

Also of the Aragorn and Éowyn scene in Return of the King, which I’ve already mentioned before.

I think Hermoine in general is a good parallel. She treads waaaay deep into territory normally reserved for love interests. If we could only abandon the narrative and focus on the trappings, she just screams endgame for Harry. Hell, when they were desperate, vulnerable and alone together for several months, I thought they were headed somewhere myself. Depending on one another to survive is intimate. It doesn't help that their actors had such great chemistry.

 

[Someonesbunny]

View attachment 14979

I’m kind of seeing this sort of parallel, with the overall emotion and feeling of Aerith and Cloud’s Gold Saucer date. To anyone who’s seen this scene from the film and knows the context behind it may also similarly get what I’m hopefully getting at by drawing this parallel.

This is just my personal interpretation of it, but this is the emotion it evoked for me.

Aerith and Cloud’s Gold Saucer date is beautiful, gorgeously shot and animated, but there is also this air of a deep melancholy to it, and it reminded me of this scene from Half-Blood Prince.

Also of the Aragorn and Éowyn scene in Return of the King, which I’ve already mentioned before.

For a lot of Aerith's interactions, I kind of get hit with the scene in the movie Cold Mountain, when Jude Law's character gets help from a widow at her homestead and all she asks in return is that he sleep next to her that night, if only to pretend that her husband had returned home from the war, and she weeps next to him while holding his hand.

 

[hytekz]

View attachment 14977

I don't get it, why aren't more people talking about this? Like, anywhere?

Aerith still loves Zack, straight from the horse's mouth and it's canon. This whole scene is such a game changer in the LTD that I don't even know where to begin. The kiss is, rightfully, seen as the most defining and enduring romantic moment so far (and for good reason, as it's our first unambiguous, unquestionable sign that Cloud loves one, and only one, girl) but this right here is a close second in my book - and it's wild we get both in Rebirth, corresponding to the part of OG where CA is ostensibly teased the most.

Nobody is talking about it, so here's my thoughts with apologies;

In English
"So, this Zack guy, you still like him?" "Maybe. He's never given me a reason not to..."

Now, in Japanese
"そいつのこと、まだ好きなのか？" "そうだね。嫌いになる理由、ないもの"

English translation of the Japanese
"Do you still love that guy?" "Yes, I do. There's no reason to not to."

Now, I want to say that despite how overt it seems in Japanese compared to English, I don't think there's a tremendously large difference between either translation if any at all. "Maybe" in this context is functionally a "Yes" as, if it was a "No" then why not say that? Zack has been gone and out of Aerith's life for 5 years - it's hinted that she's aware that he's dead both in Crisis Core and in Remake but even if she doesn't, he's just not there - and the person she's talking to is Cloud who she's interested in romantically (more on this later). It makes no sense to potentially sabotage this, or introduce awkwardness into their dynamic, or hang on to Zack unless...it's true. This scene, undeniably, is Aerith telling Cloud she still loves Zack.

Why does this scene matter? Well for a start, after all these years of us Zeriths being quoted ad nausea "a girl's gotta look forward and not back", it's clear that Aerith's eyes never looked away from Zack, not for a moment. I always thought it strange, you know? This girl's love was never so fickle to change from day to day or even year to year, how could one suggest such when she spent over 4 years writing some 89 unrequited love letters - almost two per month - only to suddenly and instantly give up on him a few short months before the events currently unfolding? Further, in my own limited knowledge of breakups, I certainly wouldn't consider Aerith's wearing of the promised reunion pink and gifted ribbon, or selling flowers as they arranged, to be hallmarks of someone who wanted to move on.

There's also the fact that this effectively debunks any lingering arguments by Cleriths that Aerith genuinely believes Zack is/was unfaithful or a ladies man. This has long been thrown out, such as by Cissnei herself in Crisis Core, but we all know fans of CA avoid that game like the plague.

Perhaps most importantly of all, the revelation both to Cloud and to us compels both to view Aerith's actions in the rest of the trilogy in light of it. Instead of being this super clingy and forward girl who ignores her friend's long held feelings for Cloud and pursues him even against his own desires, Aerith is a girl desperately attempting to recapture the magic of her lost love with Zack.

This is beautifully bookended in her final moments when she tells Cloud "I like you, but there's liking and there's liking". The whole scene takes place in the backdrop of a recreation of her Sector 5 date with Zack, followed by a few final moments in the Church - the special place where Zack fell into her life, where she comforted him over his loss of Angeal, where they built the wagon together and much more. Here there is the moment of clarity, while in Gongaga she can say outright "I still like Zack romantically" with no doubts, now by contrast she says of Cloud "I like Cloud, but I don't know if I do so romantically", this is why she is disappointed regardless of his responses until that point, he's great and they have such an amazing bond but...he's not the one her heart yearns for.

One could say we didn't have so much for Zerith in Rebirth, but the build up is absolutely there for part 3. Had SE made Aerith and Zack meet again in Rebirth, it would have ended all doubt there and then - can anyone now doubt she would shun him after this? - but the devs clearly aren't ready for the payoff. It's coming, it'll be a tough wait, but there's more than enough here in this one scene alone to prove it. Watch this space!

Speaking of translation a thing to note, in the Aerith date in English she says to Cloud : "I want to be with you" while in Japanese she just says "あなたに会いたい" "I want to meet you"
I don't know why they keep changing the meaning of lines where there is no need. You can't translate from Japanese in a 1:1 but sometimes it totally feasible.

 

[GamerSkull]

Speaking of translation a thing to note, in the Aerith date in English she says to Cloud : "I want to be with you" while in Japanese she just says "あなたに会いたい" "I want to meet you"
I don't know why they keep changing the meaning of lines where there is no need. You can't translate from Japanese in a 1:1 but sometimes it totally feasible.

The conspiracy theory is that SENA are CA biased.

 

[null]

The conspiracy theory is that SENA are CA biased.

I know you're kidding but holy shit that makes my head hurt.

 

[GamerSkull]

I know you're kidding but holy shit that makes my head hurt.

I am kidding, yes.

I doubt they have a bias. But I do have some concerns over the choices they make.

I still wish they cleaned up the OG’s English translation. Even as like… an optional update that you can toggle for any of the rereleases. (Cuz I know some purists would prefer to keep the original western translation)

The one thing I’m gutted on is never having a cleaned up translation for OG 7.

 

[Rin]

A JP speaking friend of mine told me when people tease others as having "a big sister vibe" nee-chan, it's not said in the same way Westerners would. So they don't mean it's literally sibling like. It's about the dynamic where Aerith pulls Cloud around (very gui gui)Also if you recall Claudia says Cloud should find someone who is "chotto-neesan". So someone more mature but the word used there is a bit sister like. She's not referring to anyone sibling like.

Also I was into Jpop for a while and the band members would refer to some lady guests as nee-san and in the same breath talk about how pretty they are so.. Yeah

It's like a type of personality more than him saying they're actually like siblings.

Yeah that makes a lot of sense.

 

[insanehobbit]

tbh, I find it difficult to compare Cloud/Aerith's dynamic to any other relationship in media, because how many other stories have a woman being attracted to another man because he reminds her of her ex AND for the reveal to be that said man was actually pretending to be her ex/was best friends with him all along? There are so many layers/so many other people outside of the relationship who complicate it.

(Side note, but if people wanna see a film that explores the Zack/Aerith/Cloud dynamic without a complicating Tifa character -- check out Asako I & II by Ryūsuke Hamaguchi. Spoiler alert: it's a hot mess, but a great film!)

For Aerith, I think the Eowyn/Aragorn comp still works best. She knows him for a short period of that time, and spends most of that time loving/chasing a "shadow," but that experience still transforms her.

On Cloud's end, it's much more complicated. He clearly cares for her a lot, but while she confides in him about her fears/feelings, he doesn't really reciprocate. Which is no disrespect to her, at this point in the story, he's pretty much emotionally incapable of doing that with anyone but Tifa.

Post OG/Compilation/even Remake, I could entertain the idea of some lingering romantic attraction/what-if on his end. After Rebirth, it's harder for me to believe, because if he did, why would he look visibly upset/try to pull his arm away from Aerith after she calls their Kalm outing a "date?" It's a stark contrast to the Train Graveyard in Remake where he looks pretty stoic/blase after Aerith grabs his arm in front of Tifa. Even if you wanna thread the needle and argue that he is romantically interested in Aerith but also doesn't want to ruin his chances with Tifa, how do you explain how he acts in Aerith's GS date where Tifa isn't present? Aerith pats the spot next to her and gives Cloud the choice to sit near her, make it more intimate/romantic, and he deliberately chooses to sit farther away.

Post-death/Post-Lifestream, I think his feelings for her are still very complicated, but guilt and regret probably rise to the top. Not only because he failed to protect her, and not only because he also failed Zack in the process, but because of how he treated her in the short time that they knew each other. Yes, he was a fucking dick to everyone in the party when he wasn't himself, but he has years and years to make it up to them, for them to get to know the "real" Cloud. He's never going to get that chance with her.

 

[LunarTarotGirl]

Anyone emotionally invested in a ship to the point that they’ll argue in bad faith isy an extremist.

This.100%

Also it's so strange to me the SENA thing even started when the main translators are literally listed as part of SEJP's inhouse Translation team. In the Shinjuku office. And this can easily be seen the game credits but people want to have a weird scapegoat.


When the more I play this game I see SEJP designed things in a way so if CA's want to view Cloud and Aerith as romantic we 100% can. We are given the chance and the fuel for it. Koibito tsunagi aside. Especially her Ch8 date and Costa Del Sol date and Cosmo Canyon picture taking.

Like the devs wanted to have their cake and eat it too. Bc let's be real CA's are going to play the Aer route and not go get the Tifa date to compare. Essentially letting them continue to see Aer as the romance option in their playthrough.

And I do think it's not fair bc CA's will 100% see these scenes as romantic bc they look that way and be called delusional for it.

And this is not a translation thing bc in JP Cloud tells Aerith in Costa Del Sol not "I wish you wouldn't" but "I'm bad at it.... Dates" which can be read as he is nervous to go on a date with her. So this is definitely not a language thing. It's a deliberate thing in the game itself.

And I just want to know why if the intent is oh CA is not romantic is it done this way. I think it definitely should be addressed. Bc it feels like a set up no matter how much we argue it's friendly of course CA's picking that route will think of it as romantic. And SE is allowing them to. Not SENA. SEJP.

And I think painting people as delusional when they definitely have reason to see things a certain way happens a bit too much and is definitely in bad faith. And both sides of extremists do it.

 

[GamerSkull]

Extremists on both sides call the other delusional.

I’m of the opinion that there were seeds of a romance between Cloud and Aerith until her death. However, assuming Aerith lived then would the romance continue once the real Cloud remembered who he was? That, we’ll never know.

Moreover, would Aerith still be attracted to the real Cloud in the same capacity? Another question we’ll never truly get the answer to.

 

[Stiggie]

This.100%

Also it's so strange to me the SENA thing even started when the main translators are literally listed as part of SEJP's inhouse Translation team. In the Shinjuku office. And this can easily be seen the game credits but people want to have a weird scapegoat.



When the more I play this game I see SEJP designed things in a way so if CA's want to view Cloud and Aerith as romantic they 100% can. They are given the chance and the fuel for it. Koibito tsunagi aside. Especially her Ch8 date and Costa Del Sol date and Cosmo Canyon picture taking.

Like the devs wanted to have their cake and eat it too. Bc let's be real CA's are going to play the Aer route and not go get the Tifa date to compare. Essentially letting them continue to see Aer as the romance option in their playthrough.

And I do think it's not fair bc CA's will 100% see these scenes as romantic bc they look that way and be called delusional for it.

And this is not a translation thing bc in JP Cloud tells Aerith in Costa Del Sol not "I wish you wouldn't" but "I'm bad at it.... Dates" which can be read as he is nervous to go on a date with her. So this is definitely not a language thing. It's a deliberate thing in the game itself.

And I just want to know why if the intent is oh CA is not romantic is it done this way. I think it definitely should be addressed. Bc it feels like a set up no matter how much we argue it's friendly of course CA's picking that route will think of it as romantic. And SE is allowing them to. Not SENA. SEJP.

And I think painting people as delusional when they definitely have reason to see things a certain way happens a bit too much and is definitely in bad faith. And both sides of extremists do it.

The thing is that while it's supposed to be read as potentially romantic, or romantic adjacent, the problem is that that really doesn't tell us anything.

If it's a red herring then that still makes sense
If it's fanservice but not ultimately real that still makes sense
If Aerith is delusionally coping with the death of Zack that still makes sense
If Aerith is doing romantic stuff with Cloud because she's attracted to the Zack part of him that still makes sense
If there is romance but only because Cloud is not right in the head that still makes sense
If there is some romance there but only in service to Tifa and Clouds romance that still makes sense
It could be a combination of all these things where the resolution is that the genuine romance was Tifa all along, and still make sense

Ultimately people are not called delusional simply because they think that there are romantic scenes with Aerith, they're called delusional because they give undue significance to those moments while trying to sweep stuff like Cloud and Tifa kissing under the mattress.

Essentially, it's this meme.