SPOILERS LTD Remake — It's like New Coke except ... no, it's exactly like New Coke

[AncientGrimoire]

Bugenhagen was really dissapointing, I saw him as a sweet old man yoda type, but he was just.. well, not as timelessly wise as I'd hoped

I kind of get the sense they’re trying to maybe, minimise the importance Bugenhagen has to later scenes (that will be in Part 3) and actually transfer a lot of this over to Nanaki himself, who after Cosmo Canyon in the original, doesn’t really have a lot to do?

From what I’ve read and been told about Chapter 10 and what they do with Nanaki’s story, it seems they’re setting up a lot of stuff in Part 3 where Nanaki will be more important.

I’d actually prefer this myself, I know this is controversial, but I like the idea of Nanaki having that importance in those key story moments over Bugenhagen himself.

In the original it’s sad cause after Cosmo Canyon, the story kind of doesn’t justify Nanaki being in the party other than to help fight in combat, if Bugenhagen is the one to just pop over with us to the Forgotten Capital to loredump. I like the potential for this to be Nanaki instead as this would also add to not only his stronger characterisation from Rebirth but would help his development after Cosmo Canyon too?

 

[LunarTarotGirl]

I suppose that’s fair. But I genuinely think some Clerith fans take it as “Aerith is my one true love. I wanna see her again in death” and Tifa saying “Oh, well guess I’ll always be #2 but I’m happy for you.”

When it’s not meant to be romantic at all and is more of a realization that loved ones are never truly gone and even when we die, we will spiritually reunite.

Lol yeah that is the problem but it makes no sense because she is smiling and agreeing to meet her too. Also in the Highwind scene Tifa literally brings up wanting to see Aerith again and wonders if she is watching over them. Her "Do you think the stars can hear us?" Line. The stars being the spirits of those they lost. This is basically a continuation of that. And a confirmation to her that yes the stars can.

 

[liuliuliu]

I suppose that’s fair. But I genuinely think some Clerith fans take it as “Aerith is my one true love. I wanna see her again in death” and Tifa saying “Oh, well guess I’ll always be #2 but I’m happy for you.”

When it’s not meant to be romantic at all and is more of a realization that loved ones are never truly gone and even when we die, we will spiritually reunite.

Yes I saw way too many of this argument and that is why this scene bothered me lol.

 

[GamerSkull]

Yes I saw way too many of this argument and that is why this scene bothered me lol.

Yeah, but that’s an issue with some shippers and not an actual problem with the scene.

 

[Hellenic]

My playtime currently sits at 105 hours

I finished my normal playthrough at 123 hours after doing absolutely everything i could do. Rest of the stuff is locked behind hard.

 

[Eerie]

Yes I saw way too many of this argument and that is why this scene bothered me lol.

And this is why the LTD spoils the joy you can get out of these games. Because instead of thinking "oh how nice, I like this!" you're going to think "oh no they're going to twist it that way!" so in order to really look at things, you have to really step back and enjoy what's shown to you.

 

[Rin]

Lol yeah that is the problem but it makes no sense because she is smiling and agreeing. Also in the Highwind scene Tifa literally brings up wanting to see Aerith again and wonders if she is watching over them. Her "Do you think the stars can hear us?" Line. This is basically a continuation of that. And a confirmation to her that yes the stars can.

This is just one of those things where the LTD becomes extremely annoying and why I don't even like engaging with a lot of it bc to view the game from the LTD perspective is to flatout ignore so many specific things.

Like, of course Tifa wants to go meet Aerith, too!! Why the hell wouldn't she?? Again, it is actually Tifa who is the most hurt by Aerith's death not Cloud and the fandom just pointedly ignores this all the time. It drives me insane lol. I honestly don't understand how people don't see there's a parallel between the friendships of Zack/Cloud and Aerith/Tifa!!

 

[GamerSkull]

Heck, I saw someone state that this scene showcases that Tifa has an unrequited love… which I just find to be a complete misread of all that happens in the back half of the game.

 

[liuliuliu]

And this is why the LTD spoils the joy you can get out of these games. Because instead of thinking "oh how nice, I like this!" you're going to think "oh no they're going to twist it that way!" so in order to really look at things, you have to really step back and enjoy what's shown to you.

true true. the good thing is I didn’t know any of this when I played the game, thanks to the fact that internet was not so popular at that time.

 

[insanehobbit]

I think the argument over Aerith's ghost hand at the end is so fucking funny, because isn't it just a microcosm of this entire "debate" / a dead giveaway for the OG's whole shell game? You think it's supposed to be Cloud and Aerith, but it's not real, and it's actually been Tifa all along?

The frustrating part for me is that it's made people lose sight of the fact that this is the perfect conclusion for Cloud and Tifa's entire arc from the OG.

Their story begins when Tifa is 8, and she goes up Mt. Nibel to try to see (or "meet" lmao) her loved one who has recently passed away (her mother). She falls, and Cloud isn't able to catch her. His obsession with his own weakness/failure nearly ruins his life and sets the events of the OG in motion.

At the end of the OG, Tifa is falling again, but this time, Cloud -- who's finally made peace with his own "weakness" / who he truly is -- does catch her. They're both finally able to accept the deaths of their loved ones, begin to make peace with their own impending deaths, and agree to go see their loved ones together. It's such a beautiful, fitting conclusion to their story, and a culmination of the themes of the entire game. That people can't see that because of their shipping goggles is such a pity.

AC-era was kinda frustrating, agreed, but honestly, in most fandoms, if you see two characters who were romantically interested in each other living together and raising children together, most reasonable people will understand their relationship. That ACC takes place two years after the OG, not in the immediate aftermath (AKA about 50x longer than the amount of time that Cloud knew Aerith), should again be telling us something. If I were to be generous, I think the devs were just trying to let people down easy, but since that didn't seem to work, they're being even more explicit now.

 

[AncientGrimoire]

I finished my normal playthrough at 123 hours after doing absolutely everything i could do. Rest of the stuff is locked behind hard.

A lot of my playtime is me just taking my time soaking up a lot of the new visuals and details in the open world region, I’m loving it

That and trying to get S rank on the piano

AND beating Jules shakes fist

 

[Stiggie]

All this is why it bothers me when people group together shippers in opposition to people who "just enjoy the game people". Just enjoying the game equals being cloti, that's what happens when you play the game without shipping goggles and just experience what's presented to you. "Shippers" are essentially cleriths who then go out of their way to try and twist the story this way and that, preventing people from just discussing the story as is.

 

[GamerSkull]

I do agree that in some capacity there is way too much importance placed on Cloud and Aerith in the first half, and too much importance placed on Cloud and Tifa in the second half… for it to be ignored as just shipping stuff.

In order to enjoy the game and characters as important, these parts are fundamental.

 

[Stiggie]

I'm sure it is translated correctly. I studied Japanese. Japanese doesn't include pronouns often because they're assumed from context. Most times they are dropped altogether in sentences but you would still add them to the translation. The context here is he saw Aerith's hand.
And if it is a mistranslation then why does the Ultimania say they are literally talking about Aerith? I was asked on my blog and researched it. That is what the Ultimania Omega says it was about that scene. And they "add of course the person they are talking about is Aerith" to it so I don't think it can get clearer than that. But it's just that it is part of a bigger conversation. Then they add on "As for the Promised Land..." Which means that them seeing Aerith would be in the afterlife with everyone they lost. It's a symbol for hope. Not some point for the LTD. This matches with the description of promising to meet loved ones in the DigiCube guide as well. They both say the same thing.

Also in general it's about the truth of the PromisedLand which he just realized and has been alluded to all game. LTD just twists it.

Edit: Went ahead and added it. Not sure they will change this scene to be honest. But it's literally like those scenes where you see a loved one of a character in the sky after they die in a show because they're remembering them. A nice reminder of the hope to see people they lost and it sucks people used it as a gotcha.

Thing is, there are also a lot of places where this scene is described as intentionally more general. The problem here comes down to what I've said before about not getting too hung up about individual wording. For all we know random intern thought it was just about aerith and it got through because the companies themselves are not half as obsessed as we are and don't really care about the specific meaning, which is why they're inconsistent.

 

[Rin]

I do agree that in some capacity there is way too much importance placed on Cloud and Aerith in the first half, and too much importance placed on Cloud and Tifa in the second half…

In order to enjoy the game and characters as important, these parts are fundamental.

Agreed. It also requires an understanding of WHY these relationships are important. To be frank, CA as a romantic relationship isn't really important for Cloud's arc but it is important for Aerith's. For Cloud, you could remove all romantic notions of it and come out with the exact same ending but the same cannot be said for Aerith. Unfortunately, this storyline doesn't really get any closure in the OG but this is clearly going to change in the Retrilogy which is a good thing.

On the flip side, CT have a mutual importance on each others storylines and narrative endings. You can't remove Tifa from Clouds storyline and get the same ending and vice versa. To genuinely enjoy FF7 as a story, these are facts that CA shippers have to at least be "okay" with. They don't have to like it, support it, agree with it, etc. but they do need to accept it and accept the story at face value in order to engage with it and other fans of it fairly.

 

[Empyrea]

A lot of my playtime is me just taking my time soaking up a lot of the new visuals and details in the open world region, I’m loving it

That and trying to get S rank on the piano

AND beating Jules shakes fist

You guys are reaching 100+ hours? xDD Man, that's close to the length of my Persona 5 Royal playthrough xD

true true. the good thing is I didn’t know any of this when I played the game, thanks to the fact that internet was not so popular at that time.

You and me both. I can't imagine appreciating the story as much as I do if 14-year-old me had to look at everything with LTD glasses on. I would've probably lost interest instead.

 

[Ryushikaze]

A lot of my playtime is me just taking my time soaking up a lot of the new visuals and details in the open world region, I’m loving it

That and trying to get S rank on the piano

AND beating Jules shakes fist

I am ignoring the piano. And most of Queen's Blood.
Also I'm only at about 60 hours in and I've also been pretty damn completionist.

You guys are reaching 100+ hours? xDD Man, that's close to the length of my Persona 5 Royal playthrough xD

Mine was like 88 or so? Wife and I did a one cycle perfect clear, and by the end of things I was getting very efficient as exploration and murder.

You and me both. I can't imagine appreciating the story as much as I do if 14-year-old me had to look at everything with LTD glasses on. I would've probably lost interest instead.

That people were insisting Cloud was absolutely going to end it all to be with Aerith was fucking mind boggling to me back in the day.

 

[LunarTarotGirl]

Thing is, there are also a lot of places where this scene is described as intentionally more general. The problem here comes down to what I've said before about not getting too hung up about individual wording. For all we know random intern thought it was just about aerith and it got through because the companies themselves are not half as obsessed as we are and don't really care about the specificu meaning, which is why they're inconsistent.

But I don't think any of the Ultimania are inconsistent at all? Nor the devs honestly? How so? Do you mean it's not consistent with the Digicube guide because I talked about how it's the same idea. But if you have something else I will hear you out .

Also I'm really just not agreeing w the idea of Ultimania being wrong somehow.
It used to be used as a way by extremist CA's to discredit Ultimania back in the day when they were first translated. They said stuff like it can be anybody who wrote it doesn't mean the devs approve it so they could easily ignore the argument.

And to be honest I really do not like that implication sorry.

Because if we do start saying yeah Ultimania or the devs are inconsistent it just becomes the easiest open door to discredit a bunch of other stuff in the Ultimania. And can now apply to anything anyone wants to ignore any part of it. So then its credibility greatly falls. Anyone can then cherry pick which parts of Word of God they agree with or argue that this or that passage is the truth while this one is a mistake and that just makes this debate a whole million times worse. And if this is inconsistent who is to say we should listen to X interview too etc.

It really would never end. I know you're not trying to do that but honestly that's what would happen. Which is why I basically say if it's in the Ultimania it's official it's approved that's good enough for me. And that has always been my argument when it came to questioning passages in Ultimania. Or anything official. I don't question it. Bc we don't need to add to the chaos. I'm just saying that's what it says.

Also saying Aerith here does make sense because it's her hand as I said her theme literally plays before this. Then he tells Tifa what he saw and she is happy because in a previous scene she was talking about wishing to see her. It's a culmination. I don't understand all this doubt?

I do think this scene is perfectly fine as is because it is implied to be about how seeing her means a door to seeing everyone in the afterlife. Maybe it could be clearer in ReTrilogy to avoid bad faith interpretation sure but that doesn't make the original wrong or the Ultimania or devs inconsistent.

 

[Ryushikaze]

Thing is, there are also a lot of places where this scene is described as intentionally more general. The problem here comes down to what I've said before about not getting too hung up about individual wording. For all we know random intern thought it was just about aerith and it got through because the companies themselves are not half as obsessed as we are and don't really care about the specific meaning, which is why they're inconsistent.

Do you know where those instances are? Because the one I can think of makes it very clear that he and Tifa are having a conversation, that he was talking to her and she was understanding, and she wanted to see Aerith again too.

 

[Eerie]

Also saying Aerith here does make sense because it's her hand as I said her theme literally plays before this. Then he tells Tifa what SE saw and she is happy because in a previous scene she was talking about wishing to see her. It's a culmination. I don't understand all this doubt?

TBH I really want a scene at the end where Aerith tells Tifa "see? Everything went alright" with a smile and Tifa sensing her (TAT ) Let me live in denial until p3!

 

[Ryushikaze]

Out of curiosity, are their any scenes like this

where a party member just starts giving Cloud shit re: Aerith? Because if not that is a telling omission.

Something else I just realized is that the C/T high gold saucer date is almost certainly both Cloud and Tifa's first kiss.

 

[LunarTarotGirl]

TBH I really want a scene at the end where Aerith tells Tifa "see? Everything went alright" with a smile and Tifa sensing her (TAT ) Let me live in denial until p3!

I mean. If it leads to Advent Children it's possible. That's one of my favorite moments of AC honestly. (Tifa sensing her)

 

[AncientGrimoire]

Look it’s the same song and dance again and again whenever something new in the series and compilation comes out.

Be it game, novella, dev statement, or Ultimania, the argument needs to be reframed, the goalposts moved, the foundations for their interpretations shored up against what is consistently growing to be a mountain of evidence to say otherwise.



They must be exhausted having to do this every single time.

 

[GamerSkull]

Look it’s the same song and dance again and again whenever something new in the series and compilation comes out.

Be it game, novella, dev statement, or Ultimania, the argument needs to be reframed, the goalposts moved, the foundations for their interpretations shored up against what is consistently growing to be a mountain of evidence to say otherwise.

View attachment 14994

They must be exhausted having to do this every single time.

At this point, Cloud and Tifa could be depicted as getting married and it still wouldn’t matter.

 

[Someonesbunny]

Something else I just realized is that the C/T high gold saucer date is almost certainly both Cloud and Tifa's first kiss.

... Which also means... in the OG, they went the whole nine yards in one go...