SPOILERS LTD Remake — It's like New Coke except ... no, it's exactly like New Coke

[Sacky]

That's because you think of those scenes as "optional". I really think people should let go of this word and use "bonus" instead. We are supposed to watch them all, the GS dates? If you max out everyone, you'll have a RANDOM one. That's how it is, it really doesn't matter because all the scenes are supposed to show you how Cloud canonically interacts with his comrades, what type of relationship they have.

You are supposed to do all the sidequests, learn about all the members of the group, see how Cloud interacts with them, his opinions. You're supposed to see all of that to understand the story and what it tells you about its characters. We're also supposed to chose other answers and see what happens when we do, the difference in storytelling in some narrative points.

You can also do a main quest only type of playthrough to understand what the game is saying - those are actually interesting! It's the story without the fluff, so to speak. The devs want you to replay and to think about this game, that is a certainty - what you see, are you sure about the reason WHY you see it?

As for your other point, comparing REBIRTH to a movie: we are only at the second game, and shit is going down. But personally I have no fear we'll be shown an inescapable kiss between Cloud and Tifa, if only under the HighWind.

If you do a only main story and cut out all scenes that have a variation or difference then you would see how little some characters actually interact with one another until the ending. While also still having Gongaga sequence the romantic part that has no difference at all regardless of affection or bonds

 

[KindOfBlue]

Like I’ve said before, I don’t think it’s a matter of Cloud and Aerith not being romantic at all because at the very least, they are presented with romantic undertones and they’re expected to be viewed in that light. But that romance has a lot of baggage that never quite gets resolved in a way that culminates in what Cloud and Tifa get.

What I mean is, I don’t think trying to prove Cloud and Aerith is platonic is the answer here. I would say proving their romance is futile compared to Cloud and Tifa is closer to reflecting what the story demonstrates about both relationships.

It's kind of like that quote from The Dark Knight movies where the Joker is like "Why would I kill you? If I did, the game would be over" or something to that effect (I've never seen those movies, don't kill me).

Or perhaps more appropriately:

 

[Empyrea]

I'd say it makes for a stronger argument to say the HA GS dates are optional if you can skip having the date (with anyone, mind) altogether. As it is, it's much simpler to assume that because Cloud essentially leads this group, he should at least have a decent enough relationship with these people that they'd ask to hang out with him.

Still a bit of a stretch, though, probably.

 

[Empyrea]

This is actually kind of sad. As validating as it must be for long time CloTi's, learning about all of this rich and tense history between CloTis and Cleriths, it's a little sad to feel like it's basically all over. And it's even sadder that they just keep it going when it's over. I mean, a big reason a lot of people (like me) are in this thread is because Clerith's are keeping the debate on life support in other spaces, as evident by all of the horrible takes being brought up. I'm not going to pretend I wish it was still going on lol (even though it is for them). But it's also like watching someone shout at a statue. I almost feel bad for them. It's kind of like that quote from The Dark Knight movies where the Joker is like "Why would I kill you? If I did, the game would be over" or something to that effect (I've never seen those movies, don't kill me). If they don't argue with us, it seems like they have nothing left. And we can't even enjoy the story with them because they're too busy antagonizing us and Tifa.

https://preview.redd.it/i1jwnflgm7w21.jpg?auto=webp&s=818841c3f023d0430f61141f4967e541d2a2aa8a

 

[parkdon]

LTD is over
Tifa is the only woman Cloud has ever kissed

 

[Eerie]

If you do a only main story and cut out all scenes that have a variation or difference then you would see how little some characters actually interact with one another until the ending. While also still having Gongaga sequence the romantic part that has no difference at all regardless of affection or bonds

The romance part for CT begins in Kalm and it's story-driven, then continues in Under Junon where it's still story-driven (yes because miscommunication + angst + reconciliation is textbook romance), then you have Cloud reacting to Tifa in her swimsuit (it's her theme playing), then Gongaga, and Nibelheim shows them supporting each other. Like, it's everywhere in game and that's why many gaming articles talked about it. There's a reason why you get out of this game feeling that CT's romance was developped, it's because it was developped in the main quest!

 

[Graymouse]

You can also do a main quest only type of playthrough to understand what the game is saying - those are actually interesting! It's the story without the fluff, so to speak. The devs want you to replay and to think about this game, that is a certainty - what you see, are you sure about the reason WHY you see it?

That is most interesting! I wonder, if you play just the main quests without paying any attention to any of the "sides" I wonder which date at the GS would you get?

Perhaps someone should do it..

For SCIENCE of course!

 

[Sacky]

The romance part for CT begins in Kalm and it's story-driven, then continues in Under Junon where it's still story-driven (yes because miscommunication + angst + reconciliation is textbook romance), then you have Cloud reacting to Tifa in her swimsuit (it's her theme playing), then Gongaga, and Nibelheim shows them supporting each other. Like, it's everywhere in game and that's why many gaming articles talked about it. There's a reason why you get out of this game feeling that CT's romance was developped, it's because it was developped in the main quest!

Yeah I've actually made a list of all moments that are non optional that have Tifa as the focus not just Cloud XD and a list of Aerith moments not just Cloud. Tifa has a significant moment in every chapter. Aerith does have a lot of moments but a lot of Tifas include Cloud and a lot of Aeriths apart from the song and ending sequence don't
So I am so confused at people saying CA was throughout the main story. What's weird is if you don't choose Aerith as the date she doesn't have anything from after being tired climbing the mountain until Gongaga strangely almost no dialogue during Barret Dyne same with Red aswell

 

[thetriplerhyme]

The HA dates are the most obvious example of this. Tifa and Cloud are romantic, that's the story being told, so SE makes them kiss. In the story being told Aerith and Cloud are NOT romantic, so they don't kiss. But SE still knows that a lot of people wish for Cloud and Aerith to be romantic, so they give enough wiggle room that it doesn't interfere with the canonical story, but still allows people to daydream. He holds her hand, in the story as written that's him indulging her asking him to indulge her, but it's also some breadcrumbs to tease "heej, who knows, maybe it's more!" for the people who like to imagine such things.

- yeah cuz they don't want to fully isolate C/A fans hence these scenes were created to make it 'look romantic' but in the context of the story it actually not. I never liked the strategy when they tried to please everyone but ended up pleasing no one. And they're calling TIFA a fanservice ( some projection they have in there )

This is a lost cause if you look at it on long run ( I forgot to said it as well in this tread ) cuz C/A will never be endorsed as an official couple. Why C/A are always questioning they cannot see their pair in ads ( cafe), other recent games ( in FF7EC you can see its either individual or #Zerith and #Cloti couple ( other past games but even back then if you look at it it was never as an official couple always separate or individual) and most of their 'pairings' has been removed / updated - like advent children to Advent Children complete / DOC

The recent 'lego' promo they have 'church' one? A C/A use that as one of the 'proof' that SE supports it until the selections came and turns out it was endorse and individual ( not a couple) meaning you need to bought them separately. ( what an irony)

 

[Graymouse]

Yeah I've actually made a list of all moments that are non optional that have Tifa as the focus not just Cloud XD and a list of Aerith moments not just Cloud. Tifa has a significant moment in every chapter. Aerith does have a lot of moments but a lot of Tifas include Cloud and a lot of Aeriths apart from the song and ending sequence don't
So I am so confused at people saying CA was throughout the main story. What's weird is if you don't choose Aerith as the date she doesn't have anything from after being tired climbing the mountain until Gongaga strangely almost no dialogue during Barret Dyne same with Red aswell

I believe the Devs kinda wanted Rebirth to be Aerith swansong and send her off on a high note. She will probably be in part 3 but her role interacting with the main party will be at a minimum at best.

Don't be too surprised at the beginning of Reunion (working title I am assuming) you will play as Zack and Aerith in some compacity. I could imagine dedicating several chapters on their characters and growth. Who knows we might even learn more about their relationship and perhaps we can have canon proof that the LTD is over. (one can hope right)

 

[thetriplerhyme]

I believe the Devs kinda wanted Rebirth to be Aerith swansong and send her off on a high note. She will probably be in part 3 but her role interacting with the main party will be at a minimum at best.

- honestly i wanted her role to be less felt especially to Cloud (C/A is expecting a reunion on them but duh its never in OG?? and plus for me if they reunite / see each other before ACC its gonna lose its meaning i mean Cloud can grieve by this time and get his forgiveness) since she has load of work needs to be done in LS and Zack's issue too.

I'm expecting her to focus soley on that while TIFA is focus on her role to save Real Cloud.

 

[Deleted member 26496]

It's simple, it's the difference between something being canon, and something being confirmed as canon. Tifa and Cloud are canon in the sense that, when the developers are writing the story, that is the story they are writing. When deciding on Clouds actions and motivations they're following the "Cloud love Tifa" versions of the characters. If you look at the big picture that is always the direction the story flows towards.

But when you write a story there is always wriggle room for interpretation in everything, some developers go out of their way to say "no, that's wrong, THIS is correct", but the japanese aren't really like that. If you have a different interpretation than the developers, that's fine. They wouldn't go out of their way to tell you Aerith and Cloud aren't a thing, but they wouldn't go out of their way to tell you Cloud and Sephiroth aren't a thing either. But Cloud x Sephiroth is still a fanon, it's not canon, or a reasonable interpretation.

The HA dates are the most obvious example of this. Tifa and Cloud are romantic, that's the story being told, so SE makes them kiss. In the story being told Aerith and Cloud are NOT romantic, so they don't kiss. But SE still knows that a lot of people wish for Cloud and Aerith to be romantic, so they give enough wiggle room that it doesn't interfere with the canonical story, but still allows people to daydream. He holds her hand, in the story as written that's him indulging her asking him to indulge her, but it's also some breadcrumbs to tease "heej, who knows, maybe it's more!" for the people who like to imagine such things.

I doubt that Nojima wanted there to be "wiggle room" to let people ship Cloud and Aerith considering he said that he wants to clear up misconceptions. And also heavily affecting the story (Cloud actually having some romantic feelings towards Aerith which completely changes the Relationship 2 characters have) just so people can ship them if they want even tho they are not canon seems very weird to me and that is probably not what Nojima was going for.
And regarding the movie Advent Children: I honestly don't realy blame people for not thinking they are a couple considering they literally show zero romantic affection towards each other which is so weird since they live and raise children together.

 

[Sacky]

I doubt that Nojima wanted there to be "wiggle room" to let people ship Cloud and Aerith considering he said that he wants to clear up misconceptions. And also heavily affecting the story (Cloud actually having some romantic feelings towards Aerith which completely changes the Relationship 2 characters have) just so people can ship them if they want even tho they are not canon seems very weird to me and that is probably not what Nojima was going for.
And regarding the movie Advent Children: I honestly don't realy blame people for not thinking they are a couple considering they literally show zero romantic affection towards each other which is so weird since they live and raise children together.

Advent children is interesting since it's really a product of the time and one of the writers after being told by women that they felt sorry for Tifa. They were confused they had that opinion. So after that and in remake they clearly regret the portrayal in advent and have been making them more romantic hence the Kiss. Which is why if part 3 does lead to advent it will be different in the way it's portrayed

 

[Graymouse]

- honestly i wanted her role to be less felt especially to Cloud (C/A is expecting a reunion on them but duh its never in OG?? and plus for me if they reunite / see each other before ACC its gonna lose its meaning i mean Cloud can grive by this time and get his forgiveness) since she has load of work needs to be done in LS and Zack's issue too.

I'm expecting her to focus soley on that while TIFA is focus on her role to save Real Cloud.

This is always sensitive subject, but I believe the Devs needed to show Cloud wavering between the two heroines just like the OG. Now with more technology the Devs can really flesh out both Heroines interactions with Cloud. Obviously it is in my opinion that Cloud was cold with Aerith in most of Rebirth. Aerith's interactions felt very forced. I am not saying that all the interactions were but again, A lot of people are forgetting that Cloud had just meet Aerith not more than 2 weeks ago in game time. That is just not enough time for Cloud to get used to someone who is so clingy and such an extrovert as Aerith.

I haven't seen anyone yet bring this up but I will here. I believe that during C / A GS date, that Aerith finally realized on her own that she has been just chasing a dream. This realization goes all the way back to her resolution back in Remake. "You can’t fall in love with me. Even if you already have, it isn’t real”? The GS date was this payoff. The game told you from the start and yet there are people that took this as a romantic line but if this GS date has any context it says otherwise. Not sure how to make it any clearer.

 

[Deleted member 26496]

Advent children is interesting since it's really a product of the time and one of the writers after being told by women that they felt sorry for Tifa. They were confused they had that opinion. So after that and in remake they clearly regret the portrayal in advent and have been making them more romantic hence the Kiss. Which is why if part 3 does lead to advent it will be different in the way it's portrayed

I keep seeing people talk about how the devs were suprised people felt pity towards Tifa but like ... kinda hard not to. She spends the entire OG game saving Cloud and solely from what we see in AC he left without a word and doesn't even answer her calls. Also could you please tell me what the devs reactions were exactly, I would really appreciate it.

 

[Eerie]

And regarding the movie Advent Children: I honestly don't realy blame people for not thinking they are a couple considering they literally show zero romantic affection towards each other which is so weird since they live and raise children together.

Well you have to look at the time AC was made: first the devs were still young and learning, playing with 3D but yet PDA was still rare in their games. Also with AC, I do think they were being party pleasers, they wanted CAs to be happy too but the true answer to CT was in that yin yang position: when you see it, when you know about it, you know they're the couple. Problem is, how many people knew this back then in the West? Beside that, they really went in for the cool pictures and fights, which was detrimental to the story - seriously people thought Cloud and Tifa barely talked...

ACC did better on the CT side, showing them as a family. By then the novellas were out, showing their daily lives too; and when you look at CoT in detail, then you get it: they share finances, adopt a son together, he gives her rare veggies and fruits because as a cook in those times that's what really makes her happy, ask her the permission to buy his bike since she'll be the one paying for it, share a bed and Tifa has worries that you only get if you're in couple aka "do you love me?" is not a sentence you ask to someone you're not with. But still the problem remains, because how many fans know or read these novellas? Only few, compared to the fanbase.

I would say that the novellas and ACC deserve a Remake too TBH - after seeing Rebirth, I think the characterisations are a little off. That plus the movie shows its age, there's only so much upscaling you can do on it.

 

[Hellenic]

Isn't it strange that such a petty thing as the LTD can bring out the best and the worst of people, and we are all blind to how much money this LTD makes SE. For I am sure this is one of the reasons why the Re-trilogy exist in the first place.

I could probably guess that SE will never ever solve the equation because it brings them too much money.

Do we have actual proof that the LTD even matters much for the sales of the games? Like that's never really been a selling point for Final Fantasy games in the first place, so i don't get the constant implications that LTD is their cash cow and stuff, as if the game wouldn't sell well otherwise like the other games in the series.

 

[Eerie]

Also could you please tell me what the devs reactions were exactly, I would really appreciate it.

It was Nomura who talked and was surprised by this feedback. I think he learned a lot then, but his answer was that their relationship was good and they could see that by rewatching the movie lol. They still had ACC a few years later so I think that they realised that their story wasn't easily understandable with just AC and some things were too confusing.

 

[Graymouse]

Do we have actual proof that the LTD even matters much for the sales of the games? Like that's never really been a selling point for Final Fantasy games in the first place, so i don't get the constant implications that LTD is their cash cow and stuff, as if the game wouldn't sell well otherwise like the other games in the series.

One might can say that the LTD probably helped the Re-trilogy by keeping the popularity for the OG game strong.

 

[thetriplerhyme]

This is always sensitive subject, but I believe the Devs needed to show Cloud wavering between the two heroines just like the OG. Now with more technology the Devs can really flesh out both Heroines interactions with Cloud. Obviously it is in my opinion that Cloud was cold with Aerith in most of Rebirth. Aerith's interactions felt very forced. I am not saying that all the interactions were but again, A lot of people are forgetting that Cloud had just meet Aerith not more than 2 weeks ago in game time. That is just not enough time for Cloud to get used to someone who is so clingy and such an extrovert as Aerith.

I haven't seen anyone yet bring this up but I will here. I believe that during C / A GS date, that Aerith finally realized on her own that she has been just chasing a dream. This realization goes all the way back to her resolution back in Remake. "You can’t fall in love with me. Even if you already have, it isn’t real”? The GS date was this payoff. The game told you from the start and yet there are people that took this as a romantic line but if this GS date has any context it says otherwise. Not sure how to make it any clearer.

- sorry @Graymouse i meant in part 3 I wanted her role to Cloud / interactions to be less felt to none so her reunion in ACC will be much meaningful.

but yeah I agreed i like it even more now that they have shown how Cloud interacts with 2 heroines.

 

[Sacky]

I keep seeing people talk about how the devs were suprised people felt pity towards Tifa but like ... kinda hard not to. She spends the entire OG game saving Cloud and solely from what we see in AC he left without a word and doesn't even answer her calls. Also could you please tell me what the devs reactions were exactly, I would really appreciate it.

afterwards in the kids are all right novel. There's a scene that takes place after the end of the movie in the church. The 2 book characters are a boyfriend and girlfriend describing themselves as a family Cloud Tifa Marlene and Denzel appear behind Cloud and Cloud also says we are the same. Then walks off with them

 

[Graymouse]

- sorry @Graymouse i meant in part 3 I wanted her role to Cloud / interactions to be less felt to none so her reunion in ACC will be much meaningful.

but yeah I agreed i like it even more now that they have shown how Cloud interacts with 2 heroines.

No worries and I agree 100%.

 

[Eerie]

afterwards in the kids are all right novel. There's a scene that takes place after the end of the movie in the church. The 2 book characters are a boyfriend and girlfriend describing themselves as a family Cloud Tifa Marlene and Denzel appear behind Cloud and Cloud also says we are the same. Then walks off with them

Yes, TKAA's ending is, to me, the rightful ending to ACC. It's absolutely perfect (Marlene calls Cloud 'dad'!!!) and shows Cloud's true feelings about this all. Evan and Kyrie even get in a bed afterwards lmao I wonder how many missed they had sex xD

 

[Graymouse]

Yes, TKAA's ending is, to me, the rightful ending to ACC. It's absolutely perfect (Marlene calls Cloud 'dad'!!!) and shows Cloud's true feelings about this all. Evan and Kyrie even get in a bed afterwards lmao I wonder how many missed they had sex xD

Cloud truly deserves happiness.

 

[Maidenofwar]

Marlene will always be Barret's daddy's little girl, Ever Crisis and Re-trilogy show this more than ever before. Guess she has three dads though lol.