SPOILERS LTD Remake — It's like New Coke except ... no, it's exactly like New Coke

D

Deleted member 26496

Guest
View attachment 15098afterwards in the kids are all right novel. There's a scene that takes place after the end of the movie in the church. The 2 book characters are a boyfriend and girlfriend describing themselves as a family Cloud Tifa Marlene and Denzel appear behind Cloud and Cloud also says we are the same. Then walks off with them
Thank you very much.
I will never understand what makes him think that AC shows that they have a "good relationship" but whatever. What I am gonna say tho is that I think its best to keep our expectations very low for the next game. They haven't exactly been obvious that cloti has a good relationship for well over 2 decades so I think its unrealistic to assume that they are gonna do that now and completely end clerith at the same time
 

Graymouse

Pro Adventurer
Is Aerith a Cloti?

Tifa and Cloud holding hands while Aerith sings NPTK which might be about Cloud. Awkward to say the least...
 

Attachments

  • 1711206642054.png
    1711206642054.png
    1.8 MB · Views: 10

Eerie

Fire and Blood
Marlene will always be Barret's daddy's little girl, Ever Crisis and Re-trilogy show this more than ever before. Guess she has three dads though lol.
Exactly, Cloud and Tifa are her parents (SHE adopts them!) while Barret tries to atone for what he's done. I want to see in the future a hint of him with Marlene, as he could return to her though!

@SephirothSucks I think you don't really get the implication of a kiss from Cloud to Tifa in game. The LTD is over, it is what it is. Cloud is SE's poster boy, they described him as loyal, this is clearly SE saying "look, Cloud and Tifa are a thing". I have seen so many articles praising their date as the best date that you'd think it's the canon route (there's no canon route).
 
D

Deleted member 26496

Guest
Well you have to look at the time AC was made: first the devs were still young and learning, playing with 3D but yet PDA was still rare in their games. Also with AC, I do think they were being party pleasers, they wanted CAs to be happy too but the true answer to CT was in that yin yang position: when you see it, when you know about it, you know they're the couple. Problem is, how many people knew this back then in the West? Beside that, they really went in for the cool pictures and fights, which was detrimental to the story - seriously people thought Cloud and Tifa barely talked...

ACC did better on the CT side, showing them as a family. By then the novellas were out, showing their daily lives too; and when you look at CoT in detail, then you get it: they share finances, adopt a son together, he gives her rare veggies and fruits because as a cook in those times that's what really makes her happy, ask her the permission to buy his bike since she'll be the one paying for it, share a bed and Tifa has worries that you only get if you're in couple aka "do you love me?" is not a sentence you ask to someone you're not with. But still the problem remains, because how many fans know or read these novellas? Only few, compared to the fanbase.

I would say that the novellas and ACC deserve a Remake too TBH - after seeing Rebirth, I think the characterisations are a little off. That plus the movie shows its age, there's only so much upscaling you can do on it.
How did they make CAs happy tho. They barely spoke to each other. The only way they could have tried to make CAs happy is by intentionally trying to make it seem as though Cloud is not over her death because he is actually in love with Aerith, which I doubt they tried to do. Another way was to maybe make it seem as tho Cloud isn't happy with Tifa in general because he is more in love with Aerith which I could see because they also said that "Maybe things whould have gone better with Aerith", which is very disrespectful to Tifa because after all she has been through and all heroic things she has done they basically say she is just the second option.
Tifa is my favourite character so when she gets treated like this it annoys me.
Sorry for the rant.
 
D

Deleted member 26496

Guest
Exactly, Cloud and Tifa are her parents (SHE adopts them!) while Barret tries to atone for what he's done. I want to see in the future a hint of him with Marlene, as he could return to her though!

@SephirothSucks I think you don't really get the implication of a kiss from Cloud to Tifa in game. The LTD is over, it is what it is. Cloud is SE's poster boy, they described him as loyal, this is clearly SE saying "look, Cloud and Tifa are a thing". I have seen so many articles praising their date as the best date that you'd think it's the canon route (there's no canon route).
They are canon in my opinion and I see what you mean. My problem is more with the way SE and specifically Nojima treats the situation.
 

Eerie

Fire and Blood
How did they make CAs happy tho. They barely spoke to each other.
In AC, Cloud and Tifa also barely spoke to each other you know. That's the big fault of this movie, that its main characters barely talk in the end - and in the credits (again!) Aerith was watching over Cloud. And trust me, they were happy and happily fighting in the LTD thread.

they also said that "Maybe things whould have gone better with Aerith", which is very disrespectful to Tifa because after all she has been through and all heroic things she has done they basically say she is just the second option.
Nojima - since it's him we're talking about - didn't even think about this question and also mentioned that Aerith had a great burden (being dead I suppose lol). Anyway it's clear that the sector 5 dream date is his true answer to this: Cloud and Aerith lack that "spark" and all the NPC tell them they're not fit together as a couple.

My problem is more with the way SE and specifically Nojima treats the situation.
Nojima treats the situation very well, knowing he had to make it so there were those dates and in the OG it was way more easy to construct a CA romance. You'll have the answer at the end of the Re-trilogy but I'm certain it'll end with CT+ZA like ACC did.
 

Maidenofwar

They/Them
I finally beat the game.

My results - Red XIII (22%), Barret (26%), Yuffie (28%), Tifa (35%), Aerith (38%)

My extra settings are locked, I can only select Closest Companion, and Others, but they are both still Cait Sith when I try Chapter 12 😆

I'm going to go back through all Conversations and manually pick the best answers this time and see how much of an effect that has.

At first I was confused as to how Yuffie was my third highest but then I remembered apparently if you answers all her questions before she joins right it gives her quite the affection bump.

Also these weren't the % before Loveless play since the play gives affection boosts as well.
 

Eerie

Fire and Blood
I finally beat the game.

My results - Red XIII (22%), Barret (26%), Yuffie (28%), Tifa (35%), Aerith (38%)

My extra settings are locked, I can only select Closest Companion, and Others, but they are both still Cait Sith when I try Chapter 12 😆

I'm going to go back through all Conversations and manually pick the best answers this time and see how much of an effect that has.

At first I was confused as to how Yuffie was my third highest but then I remembered apparently if you answers all her questions before she joins right it gives her quite the affection bump.

Also these weren't the % before Loveless play since the play gives affection boosts as well.
From what I gathered, the answers are what give the most points! But you still need the smiley to be in light blue to get their HA, so if you're not there after the good answers, you'll need so get some S as quests results to bump them higher!
 

Sacky

Pro Adventurer
AKA
SackyBoy
Marlene will always be Barret's daddy's little girl, Ever Crisis and Re-trilogy show this more than ever before. Guess she has three dads though lol.
im interested to see post part 3 about this i can't imagine this Barret ever leaving Marlene afterwards for any period of time
even in the care of Tifa and Cloud
 
D

Deleted member 26496

Guest
Nojima - since it's him we're talking about - didn't even think about this question and also mentioned that Aerith had a great burden (being dead I suppose lol). Anyway it's clear that the sector 5 dream date is his true answer to this: Cloud and Aerith lack that "spark" and all the NPC tell them they're not fit together as a couple.
What do you mean exactly when you say he didn't even think about this question? Not trying to be condescending because I whouldn't know the real answer as to why he said that myself but I just want to know what you mean
 

Eerie

Fire and Blood
What do you mean exactly when you say he didn't even think about this question? Not trying to be condescending because I whouldn't know the real answer as to why he said that myself but I just want to know what you mean
I think he never thought of CA as a pair before so he didn't really think about it. That question made him think, and I think his final answer is the one we can see in the dream date, i.e. no he doesn't think they'd be a good fit together.
 

cgnVirtue

Lv. 25 Adventurer
AKA
Virtue
Well you have to look at the time AC was made: first the devs were still young and learning, playing with 3D but yet PDA was still rare in their games. Also with AC, I do think they were being party pleasers, they wanted CAs to be happy too but the true answer to CT was in that yin yang position: when you see it, when you know about it, you know they're the couple. Problem is, how many people knew this back then in the West? Beside that, they really went in for the cool pictures and fights, which was detrimental to the story - seriously people thought Cloud and Tifa barely talked...

ACC did better on the CT side, showing them as a family. By then the novellas were out, showing their daily lives too; and when you look at CoT in detail, then you get it: they share finances, adopt a son together, he gives her rare veggies and fruits because as a cook in those times that's what really makes her happy, ask her the permission to buy his bike since she'll be the one paying for it, share a bed and Tifa has worries that you only get if you're in couple aka "do you love me?" is not a sentence you ask to someone you're not with. But still the problem remains, because how many fans know or read these novellas? Only few, compared to the fanbase.

I would say that the novellas and ACC deserve a Remake too TBH - after seeing Rebirth, I think the characterisations are a little off. That plus the movie shows its age, there's only so much upscaling you can do on it.
So I watched Advent Children recently and I'm in the process of reading Traces of Two Pasts. Could you or anyone else tell me the names of the other novellas/stories relevant to CT and where I can read/find them? There are so many abbreviations and different pieces going on that it's so confusing to me lol.
 

Axiom

Lv. 25 Adventurer
AKA
Axiom
The kiss in Rebirth game really means Tifa won.

Cloud and Tifa will only grow closer in the next game. There's no getting around this. Tifa will devote herself to Cloud after she finds him in Mideel. Cloud will admit he's had a massive crush on Tifa in the lifestream. They will spend the night together under the highwind (this happens regardless of affection rating in the original). If you really think about it, Cloud is kissing Tifa when she's just very shyly hinting that she likes him. By the time we get to the highwind, both Cloud and Tifa are now completely honest with how they like each other. When Tifa says "Words arent the only way to show how you feel", that's basically an open invatation to make out. Square Enix also knows they have to progress their relationship each game.

To be blunt, the kiss effectively means that every Clerith interpretation about the nature of Cloud and Tifa has been wrong. Cloud isnt trying to impress the other villagers and kids. His first priroity was absolutely trying to impress Tifa. There is no believable platonic interpretation of under the highwind. Even the low affection scenario has them spending the night together. They still fall asleep in each other's arms, and Tifa wants to cuddle some more in the morning. The scenes in On The Way to a Smile where Tifa is asking a sleeping Cloud if he loves her only makes sense if they're in a relationship, and she's in bed next to him. Whatever relationship issues Cloud and Tifa had is resolved by the end of Advent Children when Cloud lives the rest of his life with her. All the Clerith takes about what happens in lifestream, under the highwind, and Advent Children are now utterly unbelievable, for the very simple reason that everyone saying it has such a poor understanding of the relationships that they predicted the wrong girl getting kissed.
 
Last edited:
D

Deleted member 26496

Guest
I think he never thought of CA as a pair before so he didn't really think about it. That question made him think, and I think his final answer is the one we can see in the dream date, i.e. no he doesn't think they'd be a good fit together.
Don't you think that if he never thought of CAs as a pair he would have said so. If what you're saying is indeed true than answering with "Maybe things would have gone better with Aerith" doesn't make any sense because why even suggest that and not deny that afterwards if it isn't even true. That is my main problem, its partly because of the things that I mentioned that the LTD is as big and widespread as it is. Its partly because of the things that I mentioned that Tifa is pittied and thought of as "Clouds second choice" and "Leftovers". Nojima could have done a lot better in that regard but he didn't and its because of that, that we still have a lot of people that played Rebirth or watched some streamers play Rebirth and still think that Clerith is endgame and shit hate on Tifa.
 

Sacky

Pro Adventurer
AKA
SackyBoy
So I watched Advent Children recently and I'm in the process of reading Traces of Two Pasts. Could you or anyone else tell me the names of the other novellas/stories relevant to CT and where I can read/find them? There are so many abbreviations and different pieces going on that it's so confusing to me lol.
Books -

Final Fantasy VII The Kids Are Alright: A Turks Side Story - this is where Kyrie is from and i would guess Evan will show up in Part 3 (happens around the same time as Advent)

On the way to a smile Tifa - Though this starts happy then pure angst since it sets up advent children

Basically, its the first part of advent children to make that story makes sense XD

Movies/TV show - Avdent children complete in case you watched the other version XD

FF7 the last order anime 30 mins of Zack Cloud Tifa Nibelhiem.
find it on youtube fan dub

Games - Crisis Core REUNION

Kingdom Hearts 2 has the Cloti scene that was pretty much remade when its Sephiroth and Tifa on each side of Cloud during Gongaga like Angel and Devil

apart from that Fanfiction has a lot of good stories check website Archive of our own Tifa/Cloud

I read this one recently that was really good its a Zerith/Cloti If Zack survived but works for the Turks

 

Axiom

Lv. 25 Adventurer
AKA
Axiom
So I watched Advent Children recently and I'm in the process of reading Traces of Two Pasts. Could you or anyone else tell me the names of the other novellas/stories relevant to CT and where I can read/find them? There are so many abbreviations and different pieces going on that it's so confusing to me lol.

"2000 gil to A Hero" was released just before Rebirth. There's no English copy out yet, but there are translations online I believe. There's a line in there about how Cloud wanted to become soldier to become someone special for Tifa.
 

GamerSkull

Pro Adventurer
Don't you think that if he never thought of CAs as a pair he would have said so. If what you're saying is indeed true than answering with "Maybe things would have gone better with Aerith" doesn't make any sense because why even suggest that and not deny that afterwards if it isn't even true. That is my main problem, its partly because of the things that I mentioned that the LTD is as big and widespread as it is. Its partly because of the things that I mentioned that Tifa is pittied and thought of as "Clouds second choice" and "Leftovers". Nojima could have done a lot better in that regard but he didn't and its because of that, that we still have a lot of people that played Rebirth or watched some streamers play Rebirth and still think that Clerith is endgame and shit hate on Tifa.
Streamers and other fans still think Clerith is endgame because they prefer it and read their scenes with that filter. Streamers in particular who have been pro-Clerith have essentially “built their brand” around it so they would be hard-pressed to show their interpretation has changed.

As far as hating on Tifa, all games and side content have been pretty explicit about how she never did anything bad to Cloud herself. Anyone denying that is just ignoring what’s presented.

At the end of the day, my issue has never been with people preferring Clerith. I think that’s completely fine. I just don’t like it when they clearly misread certain scenes in the story. And this goes for CT fans who do the same.
 
D

Deleted member 26496

Guest
Streamers and other fans still think Clerith is endgame because they prefer it and read their scenes with that filter. Streamers in particular who have been pro-Clerith have essentially “built their brand” around it so they would be hard-pressed to show their interpretation has changed.

As far as hating on Tifa, all games and side content have been pretty explicit about how she never did anything bad to Cloud herself. Anyone denying that is just ignoring what’s presented.

At the end of the day, my issue has never been with people preferring Clerith. I think that’s completely fine. I just don’t like it when they clearly misread certain scenes in the story. And this goes for CT fans who do the same.
I agree, especially with the part about showing how Tifa was never bad to Cloud ever.
 

Ryushikaze

Deus Admiral Parsimonious, PHD, DDS, MD, JD, OBE
AKA
Tim, Ryu
Marlene will always be Barret's daddy's little girl, Ever Crisis and Re-trilogy show this more than ever before. Guess she has three dads though lol.
"Gee, Marlene. How come you get to have THREE dads?"

Is Aerith a Cloti?
Yes. Despite wanting to go on dates with Cloud, I genuinely think Aerith's endgame is to see the two together.

Tifa and Cloud holding hands while Aerith sings NPTK which might be about Cloud. Awkward to say the least...
Unless she wants the song to bring them closer together. Now that's an interesting reading, actually. Aerith writes NPTK to tell Cloud "don't waste your time, shoot your shot"

Streamers and other fans still think Clerith is endgame because they prefer it and read their scenes with that filter. Streamers in particular who have been pro-Clerith have essentially “built their brand” around it so they would be hard-pressed to show their interpretation has changed.

As far as hating on Tifa, all games and side content have been pretty explicit about how she never did anything bad to Cloud herself. Anyone denying that is just ignoring what’s presented.

At the end of the day, my issue has never been with people preferring Clerith. I think that’s completely fine. I just don’t like it when they clearly misread certain scenes in the story. And this goes for CT fans who do the same.
Yeah, and again, I'm not even to the dates yet because my busy life has gotten in the way of mainlining the game, but the game explicitly had Tifa say "we always invited you but you never came."
What was interesting there was that the tiny bit of conflict there was from Tifa assuming Cloud was just okay being alone, not contradicting the statement that she always invited him.
 

LunarTarotGirl

Pro Adventurer
AKA
Lunarae
Okay, the words burden of proof have been uttered, thus I must step in and elaborate.
So, both C/T and C/A suffer a burden of proof. They are both positive claims. What they AREN'T is interlinked. C/T does not have the burden of disproving C/A. It just does not work like that. Even if they are competing hypotheses, disproving C/A does not prove C/T and vice versa. Instead both must satisfy their own individual burdens of proof, and if they do not, we arrive at a null hypothesis, that Cloud does not love X.
As a science person, who's entire thing and training was research and argumentation. Finally someone who knows what "burden of proof" actually means. Thank you.

Shippers online always argue for their ships by trying to disprove the other. Which is why it never ever ever ends. Because they're ignoring that the actual hypothesis is:

Cloud loves X. X here being the girl you are trying to prove he loves

So the null hypothesis is Not Cloud does not love Y because that's a different hypothesis on its own that needs it's own argument and it's own null hypothesis (Cloud loves Y). But it's what ship arguments will tend to go for.

It is null: Cloud does not love X

Because proving Cloud does not love Y doesn't actually do anything to prove the actual hypothesis Cloud loves X.

Hence why goal posts always move because you have people not presenting one hypothesis, they're bringing up like four or five at once and jumping between them. And it just doesn't work that way.

And it honestly drives me nuts lol

But yeah in such debate for canon I also think everyone should be on the same page of what canon actually means too because if not the argument goes nowhere and that's how you end up with these ten or so different hypotheses being thrown around instead of argued systematically and all the leaps in logic and bad faith arguments we tend to see in these types of fanwars.

But yes, thank you for getting it.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Also @SephirothSucks

I will add because I remember the Nojima quote from COT and I don't want to double post. I think it's not the word better there but "well"? If anyone wants to remind me. But I read it as: "Maybe things would have gone well with Aerith. But her responsibility is too great I think." I don't think it's really an implication things with Tifa are worse in comparison in my view. Just that he is considering and responding what others like the interviewers would ask. And the impression they'd get from what he wrote.

But I don't have the JP quote with me anymore.
In general though I don't think the devs really were trying to to pit them against each other during OTWTAS or AC era just to address whatever they were asked about in the moment.
 
Last edited:

Hellenic

Pro Adventurer
AKA
Hellenic
Thank you very much.
I will never understand what makes him think that AC shows that they have a "good relationship" but whatever. What I am gonna say tho is that I think its best to keep our expectations very low for the next game. They haven't exactly been obvious that cloti has a good relationship for well over 2 decades so I think its unrealistic to assume that they are gonna do that now and completely end clerith at the same time
Nah Rebirth is very clearly killing any kind of ounce of Clerith that might have existed. Cloud and Tifa will be the clear end game even if they don't really adjust AC in any way.
 
D

Deleted member 26496

Guest
As a science person, who's entire thing and training was research and argumentation. Finally someone who knows what "burden of proof" actually means. Thank you.

Shippers online always argue for their ships by trying to disprove the other. Which is why it never ever ever ends. Because they're ignoring that the actual hypothesis is:

Cloud loves X. X here being the girl you are trying to prove he loves

So the null hypothesis is Not Cloud does not love Y because that's a different hypothesis on its own that needs it's own argument and it's own null hypothesis (Cloud loves Y). But it's what ship arguments will tend to go for.

It is null: Cloud does not love X

Because proving Cloud does not love Y doesn't actually do anything to prove the actual hypothesis Cloud loves X.

Hence why goal posts always move because you have people not presenting one hypothesis, they're bringing up like four or five at once and jumping between them. And it just doesn't work that way.

And it honestly drives me nuts lol

But yeah in such debate for canon I also think everyone should be on the same page of what canon actually means too because if not the argument goes nowhere and that's how you end up with these ten or so different hypotheses being thrown around instead of argued systematically and all the leaps in logic and bad faith arguments we tend to see in these types of fanwars.

But yes, thank you for getting it.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Also @SephirothSucks

I will add because I remember the Nojima quote from COT and I don't want to double post. I think it's not the word better there but "well"? If anyone wants to remind me. But I read it as: "Maybe things would have gone well with Aerith. But her responsibility is too great I think." I don't think it's really an implication things with Tifa are worse in comparison in my view. Just that he is considering and responding what others like the interviewers would ask. And the impression they'd get from what he wrote.

But I don't have the JP quote with me anymore.
In general though I don't think the devs really were trying to to pit them against each other during OTWTAS or AC era just to address whatever they were asked about in the moment.
Thank you for adding your interpretation.
I could see Nojima maybe feeling like Cloud would be better with Aerith and then changing his opinion later on. Because I think the wording of this quote is still very weird in any context and also over the years he has become a tiny bit more aggressive with showcasing cloti as the canon couple. So yeah he might have thought Cloud loves Aerith more and then changed his mind.
Nomura saying that Cloud and Tifa actually habe a good relationship if you watch the movie is still stupid tho. Like even in the denzel flashback where Cloud should not be as depressed as when he gets geostigma, Tifa still mentiones how unusuall it is for Cloud to call. And thats not even mentioning everything else in the movie. In my Opinion it is almost impossible to that they have a good relationship if you don't know about the books that take place before and after.
 
Top Bottom