SPOILERS LTD Remake — It's like New Coke except ... no, it's exactly like New Coke

[Gym Leader Devil]

I might be misremembering about Nanaki.

Also reading further into the thread I see that part of the point emphasizing Yuffie noticing relates to how she just joined the group. I didn't notice that earlier, now that I see it I can only say good point.

 

[Yoru]

I understand that this is the LTD thread, but I also think we need to put this into perspective - I don't think we're really supposed to be arguing whether the love triangle exists at all because that's a false premise. What we are arguing is the actual nature of this triangle and I think we sometimes fall into the trap of containing this in a binary of platonic/romantic, and people are just not that simple, and if they ever were, then we wouldn't be discussing this at all. I've definitely joked about the war being over, though, since I think we've always had the definitive answer to "Who does Cloud Love?" and that's always been Tifa (to be clear, mutual romantic feelings, and not feelings of mutual best buddy-hood).

Given that the premise is about who Cloud reciprocates his feelings with with, I don't think that anyone should be working so hard to deny that Aerith does have feelings for Cloud because we really should assume that she does. Regardless of whether or not this is based on her residual feelings for Zack, they do exist and she feels them fully and they are directed to one person who we know for sure is alive. You can, indeed, catch feelings for someone in weeks worth of time with the right factors, and you can fall in love without knowing who someone really is - people do that all the time and for all the wrong reasons, but they do, and its unfair to suggest that the love they're genuinely trying to give is somehow indicative of an attempt to emotionally defraud.

I agree 100% and personally never doubted Aerith true feelings towards Cloud. However, I've always had more doubts about Cloud. And since Rebirth (and I may be wrong) I've had the impression that they're pushing hard in the direction of "Cloud doesn't have romantic feelings for Aerith, he never had and never will". They have their own special place. Her death is a indelible mark. But the AerithxCloud soulmate narrative doesn't work anymore for me.

 

[thetriplerhyme]

I think the devs were really trying to thread the needle with Aerith's character, but the problems are: 1) They're not very good at writing women. 2) They greatly underestimated how insanely misogynistic this fandom is.

the way in the writing is just 'nojima's style' if you know what I mean.. we need have the complete game to see their point here (that's nojima's style) - Can't say i like it fully.

But one of the styles I see on how he wrote character is same with Aerith and Tifa. The contrast is not just the character but the way they made conclusion on how they realize their feelings for Cloud. --> reference here not mine

In TOTP on that water tower after making the promise it was then when Tifa realize she's inlove with Cloud, that she did 'like' him. However in Aerith's last date after the hug he confessed to Cloud and it then she 'realize' it wa s a different 'kind' of liking ( or she's still figuring things out but 'Now at least they know where they stand.)

This is Nojima's way of writing..

 

[Ryushikaze]

I've heard people say this as well, but I don't know why they think that either. Nanaki says nothing on his date that is romantically pro-Aerith.
He talks about how he's sure Cloud has to protect her because otherwise something bad will happen....but that's just pro-Aerith-not-dying. So unless Nanaki has more quotes on the matter that I'm forgetting?
Barret also doesn't seem particularly pro-Tifa either btw, although I think he absolutely should be.

Barret is undeniably Pro-Tifa and Pro-Tifa's happiness (whether or not he's Propane and propane accessories is a question for later). What he's not is necessarily pro-Cloud. He's the scary older brother trying to make sure the boy his little sister brought home is good enough for her.

 

[Hellenic]

And yeah, I never got the impression myself that Aerith was some sort of backstabby-type. But I can see how some fans might interpret it that way… the more extreme ones I mean.

Yeah i've seen plenty of those from the CT side, hell some Jessie takes are just awful too like her supposedly being an awful friend to Tifa and trying to drug Cloud with her pizza plan that involved ingredients that are used for love potions.

 

[CldS7]

Yeah i've seen plenty of those from the CT side, hell some Jessie takes are just awful too like her supposedly being an awful friend to Tifa and trying to drug Cloud with her pizza plan that involved ingredients that are used for love potions.

cant discuss the Jessie stuff that much cause part of me wonders how much of it is influenced by the Jairus shit tbh

 

[GamerSkull]

Yeah i've seen plenty of those from the CT side, hell some Jessie takes are just awful too like her supposedly being an awful friend to Tifa and trying to drug Cloud with her pizza plan that involved ingredients that are used for love potions.

Yeah, it’s just as bad as people who claim Tifa is a toxic bully or is somehow responsible for Cloud’s current mental state.

Both of these types of people need to wake up and really look at the story they are consuming.

 

[LunarTarotGirl]

@Ryushikaze
Yeah I know of the different types of triangles. I actually pictured the TropeTalkOverlySarcasticProductions Love triangle video in my head as I wrote that. It's just a lot of people act like there is no triangle in this story when two girls having feelings for one guy no matter how ambiguous is definitely still a love triangle add Zack and yes square. Then they get surprised that we get scenes of Aerith interested in Cloud like it's the biggest evil (not anyone here! You're all honestly very refreshing to talk with But yeah...) When yeah, they are going to show both girls interested in the guy because it's a triangle. It's just how that goes.

Also just caught up with the thread and so many good points were made. So much interesting topics as well. Lots of different perspectives. It's great to have that.

 

[tsukiyo]

I think part of the fandom sees Aerith in a bad light because of the way SE is trying to convince us that her and Tifa are such good friends while Aerith is flirty with Cloud. The friendship aspect doesn't really add up or more like... eh how should I say this... you feel there's something off with the writing as if SE tried to show us too many ideas at once (?). While I don't believe Aerith wants to harm Tifa, it still makes you wonder what's up with all those mixed "signals". You'd think friends sit down and communicate but at the same time we see circumstances surrounding each and every character involved in the love triangle and looking at this all feels unpolished in narrative (kind of). Not sure how to explain it because I can't put my finger on it...

 

[liuliuliu]

I thought for a love triangle to work, both girl need to have feelings for the guy, and the guy need to have feeling for both girls at the same level…that’s why I think they are killing the LTD in rebirth, because Cloud clearly have strong romantic feelings for Tifa. His feeling for Aerith is not so strong, and in my play through, he called her a “Nakama”

Remember a great deal with all these optional scenes is that they all have to make sense in the larger picture. So for players like me, Cloud turned down Aerith(intentionally or unintentionally) and this will be the case for Pt3. The story wouldn’t make sense at all for players who got this scene to suddenly see Cloud romance Aerith after that.

Same can be hold against player who takes Tifa’s route. However, Even you took out all the date scene, Cloud and Tifa still have a moment in Gongaga. And that movement is Cloud open up to Tifa. This is super rare in the game honestly, cloud has never voiced his concern of not being himself to any other people. Including a dying Aerith.

 

[GamerSkull]

It’s gonna be interesting to see Sephiroth/Jenova masquerade as Tifa in order to trick one of the party members to give Cloud the black materia so he can give it to Sephiroth.

 

[LunarTarotGirl]

I thought for a love triangle to work, both girl need to have feelings for the guy, and the guy need to have feeling for both girls at the same level…that’s why I think they are killing the LTD in rebirth, because Cloud clearly have strong romantic feelings for Tifa. His feeling for Aerith is not so strong, and in my play through, he called her a “Nakama”

Remember a great deal with all these optional scenes is that they all have to make sense in the larger picture. So for players like me, Cloud turned down Aerith(intentionally or unintentionally) and this will be the case for Pt3. The story wouldn’t make sense at all for players who got this scene to suddenly see Cloud romance Aerith after that.

Same can be hold against player who takes Tifa’s route. However, Even you took out all the date scene, Cloud and Tifa still have a moment in Gongaga. And that movement is Cloud open up to Tifa. This is super rare in the game honestly, cloud has never voiced his concern of not being himself to any other people. Including a dying Aerith.

Not really. A love triangle is just any situation with three people where some of the people have romantic feelings for someone else in the triangle. The guy could be clueless, or reciprocrate or not, it's still a triangle regardless. People just often think because it's a triangle the guy has feelings but that's not actually a requirement. And here is the video I was talking about. It's great at explaining it. As what pointed out there are also different types.

 

[Yoru]

I never really considered it like a true LTD to be honest. Aerith/Cloud "love story" is only made of "What if". In 1997 (let's say when Zack wasn't really a thing to make it simple) sure Cloud could develop romantic feelings but the chick dies. They knew each other for 2 weeks. We knew from the LS segment that Tifa was the one that started it all. She was the one that made Cloud take on his journey. I don't know at what moment in time a "What if" ship became the big CANON soulmate thing we can read today. It's okay if you wanna see Cloud with Aerith. Good for you. But it was never a thing to begin with.

I'm so sorry if I sound harsh and like an asshole. It's been 25 years now and I feel like a fool who hasn't played the same game as everyone else.

 

[liuliuliu]

And I don’t think Red is a Clerith shipper as some CAs claimed
I finally got sometime to do second play through and I just have to take Nanaki the good boy to the date…
Red’s date actually have a lot of lore in it. And he is quite worried of Aerith. But the reason he mentioned Aerith is because they shared future memories in Midgar, and he knows Aerith will die. Even though he almost forgets all about it, he is still worried. Red is such a good boy, he really reminds me of my dog a lot.

Let’s say the real gossip girls in the group are Barret, Yuffie and Cait…the fact that 2 of them are grown ass men is funny.

 

[liuliuliu]

Not really. A love triangle is just any situation with three people where some of the people have romantic feelings for someone else in the triangle. The guy could be clueless, or reciprocrate or not, it's still a triangle regardless. People just often think because it's a triangle the guy has feelings but that's not actually a requirement. And here is the video I was talking about. It's great at explaining it. As what pointed out there are also different types.

But that doesn’t make sense if one side is unrequited? If you and your partner are perfectly in love, but there is another person hits on you, is it a love triangle?

 

[Stiggie]

But that doesn’t make sense if one side is unrequited? If you and your partner are perfectly in love, but there is another person hits on you, is it a love triangle?

In a story, depending on how its presented, yes, but usually there is some element of uncertainty about the outcome of it.
If the story makes it seem like the person doing the seducing is succeeding, even if they really aren't, then it's still seen as a love triangle because that's how we, the viewer, experience it.

That having been said, ffvii DEFINITELY doesn't have a love triangle, and I hate that we keep using the term. It either has a love square, or nothing. A triangle is the one thing it most definitely does not have.

 

[LunarTarotGirl]

But that doesn’t make sense if one side is unrequited? If you and your partner are perfectly in love, but there is another person hits on you, is it a love triangle?

That's not how the story starts out. The fact either Cloud or even Tifa are interested in eachother is a complete secret in OG until the LS scene. It's part of a plot twist and a spoiler revealed later. OG was set up as a triangle. In fact during 1997 love triangles were popular because of the success of Evangelion and other shows like I said Kimagure Orange Road. We the players were supposed to have no idea about Cloud or Tifa's feelings in OG. All we were supposed to know was the fact two girls like one guy. That's the triangle and that's why there is a debate. Cloud and Tifa don't get together till the end of the game so story wise that's also supposed to be something we arent supposed to know in Rebirth.

But of course we would. We are fans and part of the LTD. But casual fans are slowly supposed to realize this over time. They're not introduced as a couple they're both single and introduced as friends. This isn't two partners together from the story perspective. It evolves over time sure, but it's supposed to be a reveal. And the dynamic is still set up as a triangle because both girls have feelings for one guy. I know maybe people don't like that but that is exactly how it's set up.

With Zack past 1997 it's a square. Love triangle doesnt mean the guy has feelings. It's the set up. It's just a literary set up and people read into it they assume feelings need to be involved for there to be a triangle. But you can 100% have unrequited love and still have a triangle bc it's just a literary device.

 

[GamerSkull]

Maybe it can be viewed this way:

It has romance in the first half.

It has romance in the second half.

Both involve the same man but a different woman. And the other woman is mostly absent or not much involved.

Still a love triangle? (Just the OG)

 

[liuliuliu]

Honestly I don’t think Aerith is doing anything wrong. It is not like she is secretly dating Cloud on Tifa’s back or something, I think the group and Tifa are super aware of their dates except for the dream date.

Originally I thought they are having a 2 persons dates originally, but in Costa de sol they just casually have Red shows up and joins team Red….it just seems like all party members are really just following them around…is that even a date if there are group of people following you….

 

[LunarTarotGirl]

I never really considered it like a true LTD to be honest. Aerith/Cloud "love story" is only made of "What if". In 1997 (let's say when Zack wasn't really a thing to make it simple) sure Cloud could develop romantic feelings but the chick dies. They knew each other for 2 weeks. We knew from the LS segment that Tifa was the one that started it all. She was the one that made Cloud take on his journey. I don't know at what moment in time a "What if" ship became the big CANON soulmate thing we can read today. It's okay if you wanna see Cloud with Aerith. Good for you. But it was never a thing to begin with.

I'm so sorry if I sound harsh and like an asshole. It's been 25 years now and I feel like a fool who hasn't played the same game as everyone else.

Here is the thing. You don't need any love story between anyone to have a triangle. You just need three people with at least two having interest or romantic feelings in the other.


You can have

A and B like C that's a triangle

A likes B secretly but B likes C secretly that's also a triangle.

Strange but also a triangle A hates B but B likes C and C likes A. That is weird but still a triangle by definition.

And I think that's the problem. People assume a triangle means everyone in the triangle feels the same way. When that's not at all what it means it's literally just a dynamic set up for literary purposes.

You can argue because of Zack after 1997 gaining a bigger role we now have a square. Still, it started w triangle dynamics.

 

[Yoru]

Maybe it can be viewed this way:

It has romance in the first half.

It has romance in the second half.

Both involve the same man but a different woman. And the other woman is mostly absent or not much involved.

Still a love triangle? (Just the OG)

The set up is a love triangle. Yeah totally. I was more talking about the fact people have been at each other's throats for nearly 30 years, even though the canon is pretty clear imo. Again, people can have their preferences.

I'm obviously exaggerating, but it's like if people were saying that Quistis in FF8 is Squall's true soulmate (yes I know that's not the same thing at all, It's just to give an idea). It just doesn't work.

You can't put on the same level an established couple with a fantasy.

(now you can hate me)

 

[GamerSkull]

The set up is a love triangle. Yeah totally. I was more talking about the fact people have been at each other's throats for nearly 30 years, even though the canon is pretty clear imo. Again, people can have their preferences.

I'm obviously exaggerating, but it's like if people were saying that Quistis in FF8 is Squall's true soulmate (yes I know that's not the same thing at all, It's just to give an idea). It just doesn't work.

You can't put on the same level an established couple with a fantasy.

(now you can hate me)

I think the problem here is that Aerith dies and so some fans will always have the impression that had she lived, Cloud may have chosen Aerith over Tifa. Essentially, that as things stand now, Tifa is just Cloud’s second choice.

Yes, this interpretation makes Cloud seem like an ass.

No, I do not believe for a second he’d choose Aerith over Tifa considering what we learn about him.

But this is the interpretation of some fans. And I do think it’s an issue with the fans in this case. I think there is enough in the OG that Square definitely made clear enough.
As far as the original release goes, they are in the clear. But I do agree somewhat they they should have nipped it in the bud around Advent Children so to speak. It’s great that it seems they are committing now but they should have done so much earlier.

Preferring Clerith is all well and good but… I just don’t think the OG story really reflects that, regardless of any of the marketing material. (Which again, are the way they are as to not spoil the story and provide Aerith as a bit of a red herring romance).

 

[Yoru]

I think the problem here is that Aerith dies and so some fans will always have the impression that had she lived, Cloud may have chosen Aerith over Tifa. Essentially, that as things stand now, Tifa is just Cloud’s second choice.

Yes, this interpretation makes Cloud seem like an ass.

No, I do not believe for a second he’d choose Aerith over Tifa considering what we learn about him.

That's why I was talking about a "What if" love story. Sure you can have it.

But when i'm reading things like "Yup confirmed, Aerith is coming back part 3, we get the kiss and she saves Cloud broken mind in the LS"

I'm like "WTF ? Have you ever passed CD1 ? It's not what this story is about. Ever. And I'm saying this for the damn 1997 game. And now we have a whole compilation that make even less sense to think Cloud and Aerith is a real thing, that it is how things should have been. It's just wrong.

 

[GamerSkull]

But when i'm reading things like "Yup confirmed, Aerith is coming back part 3, we get the kiss and she saves Cloud broken mind in the LS"

That’s just cope.

LS is Tifa’s moment. And let’s be honest, any fan wanting Aerith to have this moment instead has indirectly admitted that the LS scene has important romantic undertones, and they’ve indirectly admitted that the OG scene is pro-Cloti and not platonic. Which is why they want Aerith to have it instead.

And once again, it just doesn’t make sense since a whole bunch of it consists of Cloud’s childhood memories which Aerith was not present for. And the point is to prove that he is the Cloud Tifa remembers. How can Aerith remember the real Cloud if she never knew him at that time?

 

[Stiggie]

I wonder if people just haven't seen the "the person who dies in part 2 isn't coming back" statement, or if they just ignore it.