SPOILERS LTD Remake — It's like New Coke except ... no, it's exactly like New Coke

[Stiggie]

So then it seems your issue is actually with the Clerith interpretation (the more hardcore ones) of the game and not what the game is actually presenting.

The problem is… and Clotis are sometimes guilty too… is that these interpretations view the ENTIRE game through shipping goggles. Which I believe just improperly colors the whole thing.

But that’s an issue with the LTD (and probably why so many fans avoid it or see it with disdain) in that both sides are so caught up in their ship that they completely let it color their entire perception of the story and the characters.

The problem is that the way the game is presented allows for that interpretation.

I will never argue that the developers intended for Aerith to come across as a selfish psychopath, I will argue that by trying to placate everyone the developers have presented Aeriths actions such that they can be interpreted in ways that, if given validity, would have the unintended effect of making me view Aerith as a selfish psychopath, regardless of their intentions. And I criticize them for doing that, I think it hurts the game.

 

[c.lupara]

At the end of the day, I always have the same doubt:
aren't we making it too complex compared to what it really is?

There are few options, namely:

1) We are all wrong and CA is endgame

2) We are right and CT is endgame

A reflection on Aerith's character post Rebirth is that she is scared of the feeling she probably has towards Cloud, not because it is right or wrong but because perhaps she is actually afraid of replacing Zack with Cloud in her heart.

This is an option that may ultimately be true; what we don't know, however, is not the type of feeling that Cloud reflexively feels for her but rather the extent of the latter and if SE doesn't make it explicit we can stay here for another 30 years discussing things that we players could perceive and It could be different from what SE's intentions are/will be.

 

[Eerie]

Just so we're clear. Yes I understand what they tried to do. I understand what Aerith is doing/saying. It's just that I didn't like how they did it.

I think we're supposed to get thrown off by this date; everything is kinda wrong, and we know it's a "Zack date" basically. This is also why it's not working, aside from difference of characters etc. I also think the placement is on purpose right before her death because this date tells us explicitely that Cloud isn't interested romantically in her, but he does indulge her because she's dear to him nonetheless. So when we see her death, we're also supposed to get that it's not romantic (if the creepy vibes didn't get you when she revives...) and that something else is at play there. What we are seeing is exactly what Cloud did when Zack died, his mind created a new reality in which... he didn't exist! But when things started to become hard to deny, we saw a new reality being created with Zack being his best friend BUT dying the wrong way!

Anyway to me, narratively, this scene serves to explain to the player that Cloud and Aerith are not a match so don't interpret what you're going to see as romantic because it ain't romantic.

 

[GamerSkull]

The problem is that the way the game is presented allows for that interpretation.

I will never argue that the developers intended for Aerith to come across as a selfish psychopath, I will argue that by trying to placate everyone the developers have presented Aeriths actions such that they can be interpreted in ways that, if given validity, would have the unintended effect of making me view Aerith as a selfish psychopath, regardless of their intentions.

To be honest, I somewhat agree that the game allows for this interpretation.

But I actually think I disagree with the developers being bad for allowing this. They do want to allow for some of the OG bond to exist. But they also wanted to be a lot clearer about things as well.

I think it’s not a bad thing for them to be pro-Tifa but also wanting Aerith fans to have something. So having some ambiguity is not necessarily a bad thing, especially when it’s a middle part of the story. I do expect they will actually be even less ambiguous in Part 3.

Although, I do agree that the baity trailer was probably not a good decision. Maybe good marketing-wise but… well, kinda mean to both CT and CA fans simultaneously. But that’s also probably not the same department anyway.

 

[Yoru]

To be honest, I somewhat agree that the game allows for this interpretation.

But I actually think I disagree with the developers being bad for allowing this. They do want to allow for some of the OG bond to exist. But they also wanted to be a lot clearer about things as well.

I think it’s not a bad thing for them to be pro-Tifa but also wanting Aerith fans to have something. So having some ambiguity is not necessarily a bad thing, especially when it’s a middle part of the story. I do expect they will actually be even less ambiguous in Part 3.

Although, I do agree that the baity trailer was probably not a good decision. Maybe good marketing-wise but… well, kinda mean to both CT and CA fans simultaneously. But that’s also probably not the same department anyway.

Problem is they can't win. I'm all for interpreations and all, but even when they're pretty clear with some of their intentions in Rebirth, people understanding of it is so out of touch it's frightening.

 

[Sacky]

To be honest, I somewhat agree that the game allows for this interpretation.

But I actually think I disagree with the developers being bad for allowing this. They do want to allow for some of the OG bond to exist. But they also wanted to be a lot clearer about things as well.

I think it’s not a bad thing for them to be pro-Tifa but also wanting Aerith fans to have something. So having some ambiguity is not necessarily a bad thing, especially when it’s a middle part of the story. I do expect they will actually be even less ambiguous in Part 3.

Although, I do agree that the baity trailer was probably not a good decision. Maybe good marketing-wise but… well, kinda mean to both CT and CA fans simultaneously. But that’s also probably not the same department anyway.

the trailer is the dumbest thing they could have done if i saw that for Tifa and then the game gave it to Aerith i would have been fuming

 

[GamerSkull]

Problem is they can't win. I'm all for interpreations and all, but even when they're pretty clear with some of their intentions in Rebirth, people understanding of it is so out of touch it's frightening.

Yeah, most fans I’ve talked to don’t seem too confused about the game’s intention. Most of my friends who have no stakes in shipping assume it’s gonna be Tifa and Cloud and Aerith is just sorting out her complex feelings for Zack whom they expect to have a pay off for considering he’s been made important again.

And these are both friends who haven’t played the OG and some who have. So I actually think a lot of people who aren’t viewing the game with shipping goggles see the writing that’s on the wall.

It’s pretty hard to deny. Optional or otherwise.

 

[CldS7]

the trailer literally made me not want to buy the game

I still cannot believe they actively showed that at the game awards tbh

 

[Eerie]

the trailer is the dumbest thing they could have done if i saw that for Tifa and then the game gave it to Aerith i would have been fuming

When I think about this trailer, I think two things:

- Nomura really does love Aerith

- but he must really hate CA fans lol (especially those who sent him death threats over the 2 last decades)

 

[Maidenofwar]

I feel like I might have overstepped the line somewhat today and I wanted to apologise. All the GS dates are sacred to me, I should not get involved in analysing or dissecting them. I'm glad people enjoyed them and thought they were good.

 

[Stiggie]

I should not get involved in analysing or dissecting them

You absolutely should get involved, if there is one thing I hate its echo chambers. Even if I disagree with something I can still learn from contemplating it.

I feel like I might have overstepped the line somewhat today

Also, you did no such thing.

 

[Eerie]

TBH when I see the GS dates, I think the devs did really give us a great gift, so I'm really thankful because they're all great in their own way I'll work hard on my second playthrough to get everyone's HA, I promise!

 

[insanehobbit]

I think the devs were really trying to thread the needle with Aerith's character, but the problems are: 1) They're not very good at writing women. 2) They greatly underestimated how insanely misogynistic this fandom is.

I think we are meant to assume that Tifa and Aerith have talked about their "first loves" and picked up their conversation after the Shinra Cruiser, because in Gongaga, Tifa is clearly already aware of Aerith's relationship with Zack. I don't see a world where Aerith would tell Tifa about Zack, and Tifa wouldn't tell her about Cloud. (Yuffie clearly also knows about Tifa's childhood crush, though it seems Tifa is more tight-lipped about her current feelings for him.)

The thing is, I think Aerith is obviously aware of Tifa's feelings for Cloud, but I also think her actions show that she is taking Tifa's feelings into consideration? Aerith wants to see if she can fall in love with Cloud to prove to herself that she can move on from Zack, but I don't think she wants/needs him to reciprocate. Even the "dream date" at the end, it's all about Aerith trying to figure out her feelings for him. She never asks him about his feelings for her, because that's not what the "date" was about!

Even without her memories of the future, I think Aerith knows that Cloud and Tifa belong together, and she's trying to help in her own way. Why else would she make Tifa the topic of conversation at Kalm and Nibelheim? Cloud wasn't the one bringing her up!

Therein lies the tragedy of her character. Her friendship with Tifa is one of the (many) things that prevents her from earnestly pursuing Cloud and being able to actually move on. (Which isn't even taking into account the fact that the whole point is she can't move on from Zack, Cloud would never be able to reciprocate anyways because he's not himself/obsessed with Tifa, etc., etc. CA is doomed from so many different angles, but that's also what makes it such a great vehicle to explore all these different relationship dynamics.)

If you legitimately think it was the devs' intent to portray one of the games heroines as a backstabbing hussy, like please step away from the keyboard and go read a book or something, lol. (To be clear, I don't think that's anyone here!) Like with AC(C), I think it's hard to discuss Rebirth!Aerith because the execution of her arc was so far off from their intent, so we just end up talking over each other.

 

[CldS7]

I think the devs were really trying to thread the needle with Aerith's character, but the problems are: 1) They're not very good at writing women. 2) They greatly underestimated how insanely misogynistic this fandom is.

I think we are meant to assume that Tifa and Aerith have talked about their "first loves" and picked up their conversation after the Shinra Cruiser, because in Gongaga, Tifa is clearly already aware of Aerith's relationship with Zack. I don't see a world where Aerith would tell Tifa about Zack, and Tifa wouldn't tell her about Cloud. (Yuffie clearly also knows about Tifa's childhood crush, though it seems Tifa is more tight-lipped about her current feelings for him.)

The thing is, I think Aerith is obviously aware of Tifa's feelings for Cloud, but I also think her actions show that she is taking Tifa's feelings into consideration? Aerith wants to see if she can fall in love with Cloud to prove to herself that she can move on from Zack, but I don't think she wants/needs him to reciprocate. Even the "dream date" at the end, it's all about Aerith trying to figure out her feelings for him. She never asks him about his feelings for her, because that's not what the "date" was about!

Even without her memories of the future, I think Aerith knows that Cloud and Tifa belong together, and she's trying to help in her own way. Why else would she make Tifa the topic of conversation at Kalm and Nibelheim? Cloud wasn't the one bringing her up!

Therein lies the tragedy of her character. Her friendship with Tifa is one of the (many) things that prevents her from earnestly pursuing Cloud and being able to actually move on. (Which isn't even taking into account the fact that the whole point is she can't move on from Zack, Cloud would never be able to reciprocate anyways because he's not himself/obsessed with Tifa, etc., etc. CA is doomed from so many different angles, but that's also what makes it such a great vehicle to explore all these different relationship dynamics.)

If you legitimately think it was the devs' intent to portray one of the games heroines as a backstabbing hussy, like please step away from the keyboard and go read a book or something, lol. (To be clear, I don't think that's anyone here!) Like with AC(C), I think it's hard to discuss Rebirth!Aerith because the execution of her arc was so far off from their intent, so we just end up talking over each other.

eveything you've said here is spot on

the issue is how her arc and the way it ends up is juxtaposed to how much they improved and furthered Tifa's character

but I agree they really need a womans voice in the writing team for this. This dynamic feels painfully old fashioned in some areas and is not something you'd see written in any piece of media like this in the past 10-15 years

 

[GamerSkull]

I think they’re also constrained a bit by the OG. They want to explore these characters further and make them more complex. At the same time, they do still want to retain some of the relationship dynamics of the OG because they know a lot of fans want to see that.

So I actually think it’s a case of being “between a rock and a hard place”. And that’s in addition to the points @insanehobbit brought up.

And yeah, I never got the impression myself that Aerith was some sort of backstabby-type. But I can see how some fans might interpret it that way… the more extreme ones I mean.

 

[Gym Leader Devil]

@Yoru: Welcome an' shit

You mentioned how clear Cloud and Tifa's feelings are even in universe, saying "even Yuffie can see it." I just wanna say that in addition to being a teenage girl (not always what you'd call romantically wise, but frequently stereotyped as extremely romance sensitive as it were), she's a ninja. She openly admits that slitting a sleeping target's throat is on the way able for her. Seeing as ninjas are spies and saboteurs, shed better be noticing who loves who by reflex.

What's more impressive to me is that Nanaki seems to see it too. He's not even human and has a hard time ome quantifying human attraction. Though I guess he can probably smell it.

 

[GamerSkull]

@Yoru: Welcome an' shit

You mentioned how clear Cloud and Tifa's feelings are even in universe, saying "even Yuffie can see it." I just wanna say that in addition to being a teenage girl (not always what you'd call romantically wise, but frequently stereotyped as extremely romance sensitive as it were), she's a ninja. She openly admits that slitting a sleeping target's throat is on the way able for her. Seeing as ninjas are spies and saboteurs, shed better be noticing who loves who by reflex.

What's more impressive to me is that Nanaki seems to see it too. He's not even human and has a hard time ome quantifying human attraction. Though I guess he can probably smell it.

Spoiler

 

[Stiggie]

What's more impressive to me is that Nanaki seems to see it too

Does he? I don't remember him every making a remark about Cloud and Tifa.

 

[luminous03]

Does he? I don't remember him every making a remark about Cloud and Tifa.

Yeah same here, i remember he makes a comment on aerith on his date but never on tifa ( besides him saying to tifa that she shouldn't please everyone)

 

[Yoru]

Not really. As much as Tifa is Aerith human side confident, Nanaki is Aerith Cetra side confident.

So from a shipper POV he's more of a Clerith than anything else. Yuffie is CloTi 100%. Cait is following the flow and Barret imo is more on the CloTi side of things. It's like a daughter to him. He watch after her ALWAYS (That's mostly for her he's going after the hooded dudes in the mythril mines)

 

[Stiggie]

Nanaki is Aerith Cetra side confident.

I've heard people say this as well, but I don't know why they think that either. Nanaki says nothing on his date that is romantically pro-Aerith.
He talks about how he's sure Cloud has to protect her because otherwise something bad will happen....but that's just pro-Aerith-not-dying. So unless Nanaki has more quotes on the matter that I'm forgetting?
Barret also doesn't seem particularly pro-Tifa either btw, although I think he absolutely should be.

 

[GamerSkull]

Most of the characters are neutral and aren’t shipping anybody, other than making observations. There are no “sides” they are taking, so to speak.

They don’t have shipping goggles on like we do.

 

[Yoru]

I've heard people say this as well, but I don't know why they think that either. Nanaki says nothing on his date that is romantically pro-Aerith.
He talks about how he's sure Cloud has to protect her because otherwise something bad will happen....but that's just pro-Aerith-not-dying. So unless Nanaki has more quotes on the matter that I'm forgetting?
Barret also doesn't seem particularly pro-Tifa either btw, although I think he absolutely should be.

It's more to say that he's closer to Aerith than Tifa.

Most of the characters are neutral and aren’t shipping anybody, other than making observations. There are no “sides” they are taking, so to speak.

They don’t have shipping goggles on like we do.

I'm not saying they're pushing for it 100% but some dynamics exist in the group. Barret knows Tifa got feelings for Cloud since maybe the start of it all. Like Marle when Tifa's asking a room for a friend. She (maybe) thinks she's discreet and secretive but oh boii everyone read in her like a book in Sector 7. That's the first thing Jessie is trying to figure out when she meets Cloud.

Of course I'm not telling you "this character is a shipper, they're gonna do dirty tricks to make their girl win". I'm just having fun.

 

[Someonesbunny]

I understand that this is the LTD thread, but I also think we need to put this into perspective - I don't think we're really supposed to be arguing whether the love triangle exists at all because that's a false premise. What we are arguing is the actual nature of this triangle and I think we sometimes fall into the trap of containing this in a binary of platonic/romantic, and people are just not that simple, and if they ever were, then we wouldn't be discussing this at all. I've definitely joked about the war being over, though, since I think we've always had the definitive answer to "Who does Cloud Love?" and that's always been Tifa (to be clear, mutual romantic feelings, and not feelings of mutual best buddy-hood).

Given that the premise is about who Cloud reciprocates his feelings with with, I don't think that anyone should be working so hard to deny that Aerith does have feelings for Cloud because we really should assume that she does. Regardless of whether or not this is based on her residual feelings for Zack, they do exist and she feels them fully and they are directed to one person who we know for sure is alive. You can, indeed, catch feelings for someone in weeks worth of time with the right factors, and you can fall in love without knowing who someone really is - people do that all the time and for all the wrong reasons, but they do, and its unfair to suggest that the love they're genuinely trying to give is somehow indicative of an attempt to emotionally defraud.

Therein lies the nuance of Aerith's character. She's not an insidious, backstabbing person or even necessarily a bad friend. She's just incredibly lonely and mourning her lost love. It's not the person (Cloud) she wants, but the connection with someone she truly loves and truly loves her, that she once had and was taken from her.

I'd also suggest if Aerith were actively attempting to pursue a romantic relationship with Cloud, she wouldn't go out of her way to sabotage it by doing things like telling him she's still in love with Zack, but that's as an aside.

@Hix puts it well here, I think, especially the fact that Aerith isn't doing any of this to harm anyone, but that this is all because she was harmed herself. Losing Zack was a formative moment in her life - losing someone so dear despite their promises changes her perspective, and it must feel cruel to watch two others, so much like she had been with Zack, somehow find their way to each other in a way that she and Zack were not to be.

She seems at least somewhat cognizant of her own attempts to recreate the magic of falling in love with Zack and seems to understand that it isn't fair to Cloud, and her date feels like a true attempt to declare that she has decided to take her first steps away from her previous behaviour of unknowingly encouraging his SOLDIER persona and towards a more honest understanding of who he really is - a boy she knows she doesn't know the same way that Tifa does, a sore spot she has made clear she is jealous about (but for the sake of argument, if she is serious about winning his affections, then yes, rightly so; this is an uphill battle for anyone else and they should know that).

The thing is, I think Aerith is obviously aware of Tifa's feelings for Cloud, but I also think her actions show that she is taking Tifa's feelings into consideration? Aerith wants to see if she can fall in love with Cloud to prove to herself that she can move on from Zack, but I don't think she wants/needs him to reciprocate. Even the "dream date" at the end, it's all about Aerith trying to figure out her feelings for him. She never asks him about his feelings for her, because that's not what the "date" was about!

@insanehobbit hits the nail on the head here, I think: she wants to be fulfilled in knowing she can feel this again, whether or not it can be returned, but often times, it doesn't need to be - love is for giving, not taking, and she wants to be able to do so. It's really sweet and really sad, and I think part of this is the failure of seeing everything through Cloud's eyes.

 

[GamerSkull]

I understand that this is the LTD thread, but I also think we need to put this into perspective - I don't think we're really supposed to be arguing whether the love triangle exists at all because that's a false premise. What we are arguing is the actual nature of this triangle and I think we sometimes fall into the trap of containing this in a binary of platonic/romantic, and people are just not that simple, and if they ever were, then we wouldn't be discussing this at all. I've definitely joked about the war being over, though, since I think we've always had the definitive answer to "Who does Cloud Love?" and that's always been Tifa (to be clear, mutual romantic feelings, and not feelings of mutual best buddy-hood).

Given that the premise is about who Cloud reciprocates his feelings with with, I don't think that anyone should be working so hard to deny that Aerith does have feelings for Cloud because we really should assume that she does. Regardless of whether or not this is based on her residual feelings for Zack, they do exist and she feels them fully and they are directed to one person who we know for sure is alive. You can, indeed, catch feelings for someone in weeks worth of time with the right factors, and you can fall in love without knowing who someone really is - people do that all the time and for all the wrong reasons, but they do, and its unfair to suggest that the love they're genuinely trying to give is somehow indicative of an attempt to emotionally defraud.



@Hix puts it well here, I think, especially the fact that Aerith isn't doing any of this to harm anyone, but that this is all because she was harmed herself. Losing Zack was a formative moment in her life - losing someone so dear despite their promises changes her perspective, and it must feel cruel to watch two others, so much like she had been with Zack, somehow find their way to each other in a way that she and Zack were not to be.

She seems at least somewhat cognizant of her own attempts to recreate the magic of falling in love with Zack and seems to understand that it isn't fair to Cloud, and her date feels like a true attempt to declare that she has decided to take her first steps away from her previous behaviour of unknowingly encouraging his SOLDIER persona and towards a more honest understanding of who he really is - a boy she knows she doesn't know the same way that Tifa does, a sore spot she has made clear she is jealous about (but for the sake of argument, if she is serious about winning his affections, then yes, rightly so; this is an uphill battle for anyone else and they should know that).



@insanehobbit hits the nail on the head here, I think: she wants to be fulfilled in knowing she can feel this again, whether or not it can be returned, but often times, it doesn't need to be - love is for giving, not taking, and she wants to be able to do so. It's really sweet and really sad, and I think part of this is the failure of seeing everything through Cloud's eyes.

Perfection. Agree with all of this 100%.