SPOILERS LTD Remake — It's like New Coke except ... no, it's exactly like New Coke

[Cat on Mars]

I'm not a mod or anything, but can we please be respectful of each other? That's the main reason why I like coming to this site

When every answer you get is "you're dumb and can't understand" over and over... it's hard to keep being respectful of someone's bloated ego. Also, calling people dumb it's a poor way to persuade them, but eh. Whatever, I guess.

Idk, I think its pretty common that people only reference Tifa for her tits. Like that's the only reason people like her

This. It's been 20 years, those jokes are stale.

 

[Enthralled]

When every answer you get is "you're dumb and can't understand" over and over... it's hard to keep being respectful of someone's bloated ego. Also, calling people dumb it's a poor way to persuade them, but eh. Whatever, I guess.


That. It's been 20 years, those jokes are stale.

Me saying someone saying I said something I did not, or did not say something I did, is "wrong" is not unfair.

Also the most common fandom joke is at the expense of Aerith. Like I said, you know this place is biased when the number 1 complaint about the fanbase is "Tifa gets no respect"

Also it's not insulting for people to like Tifa partly for her body. I don't think it diminishes her.

My guess is it's a mix of them both

They're not the same, though related, and the lewding is meant to be a credit to her.

 

[Theozilla]

where? Where have they. TifaxCloud is the first and even that is just pretending there's something wrong with a supernaturally gifted character in a story where a bartender hurls tanks.

People have been repeatedly trying to explain themselves on why they don't agree with the assessment that either Aerith or Tifa are more important than the other in regards to story/plot. That's what's been repeatedly going on for half of the last few pages of this thread.

most common fandom joke is at the expense of Aerith. Like I said, you know this place is biased when the number 1 complaint about the fanbase is "Tifa gets no respect"

People's own personal experiences with fandom lead to extremely different perceptions of what is most "common". In my experience the most common complaint on this site are people taking issue with developers like Nomura and Nojima being overly cryptic in their storytelling.

 

[billy22]

Some here need to look at the two girls importance to the plot less...linearly. They are two parts to the same whole. Instead of trying to argue over relevance, which is subjective and depends highly on the context of how you define the question.

 

[Enthralled]

Also how does Aerith have plot armor when she famously dies? Tifa is the one with the "near fatalities" which is what plot armor usually is. In Nibelheim, with Loz, and Bahamut-sin(?)

Some here need to look at the two girls importance to the plot less...linearly. They are two parts to the same whole. Instead of trying to argue over relevance, which is subjective and depends highly on the context of how you define the question.

I actually do agree with this. Both handle different parts of the heroine role.
But it's just not outlandish to say Aerith has more plot importance. The stuff about plot armor is someone agreeing that she does but arguing they don't care for it as much.

People have been repeatedly trying to explain themselves on why they don't agree with the assessment that either Aerith or Tifa are more important than the other in regards to story/plot. That's what's been repeatedly going on for half of the last few pages of this thread.

People's own personal experiences with fandom lead to extremely different perceptions of what is most "common". In my experience the most common complaint on this site are people taking issue with developers like Nomura and Nojima being overly cryptic in their storytelling.

The "assessments" I have seen I disagreed with fairly.

 

[Cat on Mars]

most common fandom joke is at the expense of Aerith. Like I said, you know this place is biased when the number 1 complaint about the fanbase is "Tifa gets no respect"

Priorities vary. Your priorities aren't ours. Yes it's bias. No, your bias isn't better than other people's.

Also it's not insulting for people to like Tifa partly for her body. I don't think it diminishes her.

Yes I know. I draw porn. I draw porn featuring FFVII charaters, and one of them is Tifa. That isn't the problem, I've already said that. You're so literal about everything that I must ask you something: are you autistic? Honest question.

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

@Enthralled
@Cat on Mars

I'm very close to forbidding you folks from speaking to one other, and Enthralled from continuing to address @Graymouse after the latter asked for just agreeing to disagree.

Stop with the insults and/or shitposting.

 

[LNK]

When every answer you get is "you're dumb and can't understand" over and over... it's hard to keep being respectful of someone's bloated ego. Also, calling people dumb it's a poor way to persuade them, but eh. Whatever, I guess.

I agree, it is hard. At some point someone's gotta stay the better person though. Both sides can make their arguments. If there's still a disagreement, then let's leave it at that. There's no need to be rude to each other

 

[Makoeyes987]

.... We certainly do need to turn the heat down in here. It feels like some here are talking past each other and getting irritated and insulted at the lack of addressing.

Characters are important and relevant in different contexts to the narrative. Yoda is an important character in Star Wars because of his status as the last Jedi Master alive to train Luke into a Jedi and his connection to the overall lore of the story.

Han Solo is important to Star Wars because he's an ordinary dude who was pulled into the war against the space-fascist Empire and becomes a close friend to Luke, Leia and the rest. He offers the perspective of a normal individual connected to things beyond ordinary understanding. However he's close to the characters despite his ordinariness.

Yoda and Han Solo are both important characters in different ways.

Yoda isn't as important to the plot in connection to its characters and their development save Luke Skywalker.

Han Solo isn't as important to the plot in connection to its overall lore and fantasy setting. But he's an important motivator and connection to main characters.

I think the comparison is obvious.

 

[Enthralled]

Priorities vary. Your priorities aren't ours. Yes it's bias. No, your bias isn't better than other people's.


Yes I know. I draw porn. I draw porn featuring FFVII charaters, and one of them is Tifa. That isn't the problem, I've already said that. You're so literal about everything that I must ask you something: are you autistic? Honest question.

And someone finally made that case ("plot armor") and I find it wanting.
I'm not being literal, I am replying to what you say. And your response is something I could not have possibly known(?)

 

[LNK]

Me saying someone saying I said something I did not, or did not say something I did, is "wrong" is not unfair.

Also the most common fandom joke is at the expense of Aerith. Like I said, you know this place is biased when the number 1 complaint about the fanbase is "Tifa gets no respect"

Also it's not insulting for people to like Tifa partly for her body. I don't think it diminishes her.


They're not the same, though related, and the lewding is meant to be a credit to her.

But, when that is one of the main reasons, that is insulting to a person. (At least for the women I know) They don't want to mainly be known for having big tits

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

@Enthralled
@Cat on Mars

I'm very close to forbidding you folks from speaking to one other, and Enthralled from continuing to address @Graymouse after the latter asked for just agreeing to disagree.

Stop with the insults and/or shitposting.

And let me also add to this, for the benefit of everyone, that there's no good reason for the question of "Who is more important to the story?" to be coming up in the first place. That means dick all to the overall subject.

I don't know who originally brought it up at this point or why it has continued to be, and I don't really care. We all know it's an irrelevant question to begin with and one that can't be examined without veering into different aspects of both the story and the storytelling itself -- so it's a question that has nothing to offer this debate but shitty detours to nowhere like what we're currently witnessing. =\

 

[Enthralled]

.... We certainly do need to turn the heat down in here. It feels like some here are talking past each other and getting irritated and insulted at the lack of addressing.

Characters are important and relevant in different contexts to the narrative. Yoda is an important character in Star Wars because of his status as the last Jedi Master alive to train Luke into a Jedi and his connection to the overall lore of the story.

Han Solo is important to Star Wars because he's an ordinary dude who was pulled into the war against the space-fascist Empire and becomes a close friend to Luke, Leia and the rest. He offers the perspective of a normal individual connected to things beyond ordinary understanding. However he's close to the characters despite his ordinariness.

Yoda and Han Solo are both important characters in different ways.

Yoda isn't as important to the plot in connection to its characters and their development save Luke Skywalker.

Han Solo isn't as important to the plot in connection to its overall lore and fantasy setting. But he's an important motivator and connection to main characters.

I think the comparison is obvious.

This is a decent comparison. But the problem is that Yoda (OG trilogy only to be fair to Han) is only important as an extension of Luke or Luke's journey. Aerith is not "just lore", lore is just a way we know she is important. Nor is she just an extension of Cloud. In fact like Han she has connections to the characters and acts as motivation (both even get decommissioned at one point, one just permanently).
And I would say Han is more important to the original trilogy's story than Yoda interestingly enough. Either way I'd understand why someone would say Yoda or Han.

 

[looneymoon]

A case can be made that Cloud and Aeris somewhat share the role of "protagonist" in the story, given the significance they bring to the primary conflict, which is Sephiroth vs the world. Tifa doesn't have as direct of an arc tied to this conflict, as her story is more to do with Cloud and his internal struggles. Tifa doesn't really have much of a leg if it came to a discussion as to who fulfills the role of "protagonist" more.

From a look at story-structure, Cloud and Aeris' equal roles in the central conflict makes their characters serve as strong foils to one another as much as anything else. This is very similar to the way FFX does it with Tidus/Yuna. This structure continues to exist outside of Aeris' role of being a love interest for Cloud, and continues to exist after she dies. I would argue that the nature of the structure/conflict/role fulfillment doesn't say too much about the role of Cloud's love interest, as there is another option there. If, hypothetically, Yuna had a version of male!Tifa in FFX (or FFX-2) and Tidus didn't come back to life, I would say the same thing.

Cloud/Tifa don't really have that same type of comparative structure to their arc, by nature of how Cloud is the focus of the conflict. I think the argument could be made that by giving Aeris the role of primary love interest after her death, you essentially diminish the emotional weight of Tifa's arc, which is more reliant on fulfilling that role than Aeris, who also has other stuff going on.

just some ~*~*~*thoughts*~*~*~

 

[Cat on Mars]

But, when that is one of the main reasons, that is insulting to a person. (At least for the women I know) They don't want to mainly be known for having big tits

The fact that this is something that needed to be said makes me lol. My sides.

 

[Makoeyes987]

This is a decent comparison. But the problem is that Yoda is only important as an extension of Luke or Luke's journey. Aerith is not "just lore", lore is just a way we know she is important.
And I would say Han is more important to the original trilogy's story than Yoda interestingly enough. Either way I'd understand why someone would say Yoda or Han.

That's entirely subjective though. I would weigh Yoda as a very important character that is equally important and relevant to the story as the Han or Lando. They function in entirely different ways and have differing levels of screen time but Yoda's importance to the plot and Luke's journey is so heavily weighted and relevant that it reverberates beyond just it's depiction.

And Aerith is certainly important. Highly so. Both in terms of the lore of the setting and the relationships to the characters. But I wouldn't say she is more important than Tifa, Cloud, or Sephiroth. They have very clear roles, relevancy and weighted importance that doesn't put them necessarily above each other.

 

[Enthralled]

And let me also add to this, for the benefit of everyone, that there's no good reason for the question of "Who is more important to the story?" to be coming up in the first place. That means dick all to the overall subject.

I don't know who originally brought it up at this point or why it has continued to be, and I don't really care. We all know it's an irrelevant question to begin with and one that can't be examined without veering into different aspects of both the story and the storytelling itself -- so it's a question that has nothing to offer this debate but shitty detours to nowhere like what we're currently witnessing. =\

I can explain where it began. There was some commentary on how writing out the relationship Cloud and Aerith had would be bad because Aerith is important to the plot so her role to the other characters should not be arbitrarily reduced or given a lot of pointless scenes of her and Cloud getting close. These are not the same things obviously but they are related and as a narrative construct is used to emphasize some characters over others.

So the both claims, that "Aerith is more important to the plot" and "because of this she should not have something iconic to her character unceremoniously dismissed" became needlessly contested. And I am stubborn.

That's entirely subjective though. I would weigh Yoda as a very important character that is equally important and relevant to the story as the Han or Lando. They function in entirely different ways and have differing levels of screen time but Yoda's importance to the plot and Luke's journey is so heavily weighted and relevant that it reverberates beyond just it's depiction.

And Aerith is certainly important. Highly so. Both in terms of the lore of the setting and the relationships to the characters. But I wouldn't say she is more important than Tifa, Cloud, or Sephiroth. They have very clear roles, relevancy and weighted importance that doesn't put them necessarily above each other.

The fact you even accidentally compare Han and Lando is insane. You're insane!
In all seriousness, yes it is subjective (kinda), but the main argument I've heard against it is just saying it's true but by dint of being supernatural it's not impressive. Which is another subjective opinion. That's how it goes.

But, when that is one of the main reasons, that is insulting to a person. (At least for the women I know) They don't want to mainly be known for having big tits

The fact that this is something that needed to be said makes me lol. My sides.

not a question of me not getting it... it's just not what the rwby guy did.
Me saying "it's meant to be a credit" is not saying you have to view it that way.
The fact THIS needed to be said... also the porn artist weighing in like this (?). Give me a break. Stop seething.

 

[Enthralled]

A case can be made that Cloud and Aeris somewhat share the role of "protagonist" in the story, given the significance they bring to the primary conflict, which is Sephiroth vs the world. Tifa doesn't have as direct of an arc tied to this conflict, as her story is more to do with Cloud and his internal struggles. Tifa doesn't really have much of a leg if it came to a discussion as to who fulfills the role of "protagonist" more.

From a look at story-structure, Cloud and Aeris' equal roles in the central conflict makes their characters serve as strong foils to one another as much as anything else. This is very similar to the way FFX does it with Tidus/Yuna. This structure continues to exist outside of Aeris' role of being a love interest for Cloud, and continues to exist after she dies. I would argue that the nature of the structure/conflict/role fulfillment doesn't say too much about the role of Cloud's love interest, as there is another option there. If, hypothetically, Yuna had a version of male!Tifa in FFX (or FFX-2) and Tidus didn't come back to life, I would say the same thing.

Cloud/Tifa don't really have that same type of comparative structure to their arc, by nature of how Cloud is the focus of the conflict. I think the argument could be made that by giving Aeris the role of primary love interest after her death, you essentially diminish the emotional weight of Tifa's arc, which is more reliant on fulfilling that role than Aeris, who also has other stuff going on.

just some ~*~*~*thoughts*~*~*~

"nah this is all subjective lmao"

why even have forums if ^ is gonna be your response?
You made me think though, even if unknowingly, that many of the people who argue making Aerith the main love interest diminishes Tifa's arc are the same people unwilling to admit Aerith is more important to the plot or that her relationship to Cloud is still part of her character so removing that is diminishing the character. It's more or less the same claim. That needlessly denying a character something their arc culminates on or is invoked for said culmination is trivializing their arc.

 

[Cat on Mars]

Uh-huh. I think I've got my answer.
Later, porn isn't going to draw itself.

 

[Graymouse]

I can explain where it began. There was some commentary on how writing out the relationship Cloud and Aerith had would be bad because Aerith is important to the plot so her role to the other characters should not be arbitrarily reduced or given a lot of pointless scenes of her and Cloud getting close. These are not the same things obviously but they are related and as a narrative construct is used to emphasize some characters over others.

So the both claims, that "Aerith is more important to the plot" and "because of this she should not have something iconic to her character unceremoniously dismissed" became needlessly contested. And I am stubborn.


The fact you even accidentally compare Han and Lando is insane. You're insane!
In all seriousness, yes it is subjective (kinda), but the main argument I've heard against it is just saying it's true but by dint of being supernatural it's not impressive. Which is another subjective opinion. That's how it goes.



not a question of me not getting it... it's just not what the rwby guy did.
Me saying "it's meant to be a credit" is not saying you have to view it that way.
The fact THIS needed to be said... also the porn artist weighing in like this (?). Give me a break. Stop seething.

Hey, I am not sure who said that, but I know it sure wasn't me. I was really surprised at how adamant you are about that. I never once said that one character should be emphasized over the other. I didn't know where the genesis of this entire thing was.

I picked up in the conversation when you were saying one girl is over the other that is why I was replying to you. I guess it could be my fault for not reading the entire forum before replying and sorry for that.

 

[Enthralled]

Uh-huh. I think I've got my answer.
Later, porn isn't going to draw itself.

for a shitposter you are so serious.

Hey, I am not sure who said that, but I know it sure wasn't me. I was really surprised at how adamant you are about that. I never once said that one character should be emphasized over the other. I didn't know where the genesis of this entire thing was.

I picked up in the conversation when you were saying one girl is over the other that is why I was replying to you. I guess it could be my fault for not reading the entire forum before replying and sorry for that.

I never singled you out as claiming that. At most I might have said something you said is similar, expecting you to maybe re-evaluate or tell me what I got wrong.

If I wanted to make that case I would say you only thought I was singling you out because you might say that. But I don't think that's the case.

 

[Graymouse]

for a shitposter you are so serious.


I never singled you out as claiming that. At most I might have said something you said is similar, expecting you to maybe re-evaluate or tell me what I got wrong.

Alright. Gotcha! BTW, I don't hate Aerith as much as you think I do. She was written well in the Remake and filled in a lot of holes that are not in the OG and I still believe that she knows more than what she is leading on to know.

 

[Makoeyes987]

That needlessly denying a character something their arc culminates on or is invoked for said culmination is trivializing their arc.

Which is why no one should even be going this route in the first place.

The entirety of it is subjective.

A case can be made that Cloud and Aeris somewhat share the role of "protagonist" in the story, given the significance they bring to the primary conflict, which is Sephiroth vs the world. Tifa doesn't have as direct of an arc tied to this conflict, as her story is more to do with Cloud and his internal struggles. Tifa doesn't really have much of a leg if it came to a discussion as to who fulfills the role of "protagonist" more.

To be fair, they seem to be wanting to flesh out this direct arc connection with Tifa in the Remake, given her moments in the game at the Mako Reactors, her unique Chapter 14 resolution, and just general feelings towards Shinra. The only issue is she didn't think Sephiroth was alive. Now that this is a thing, I easily see her having somewhat personal motivation and animus towards Sephiroth beyond what's been done to Cloud. If anything has been shown, the Remake does its best to give Tifa a far more weightier portrayal than just being the one who's there for Cloud and wanting to save him.

 

[Graymouse]

Which is why no one should even be going this route in the first place.

The entirety of it is subjective.



To be fair, they seem to be wanting to flesh out this direct arc connection with Tifa in the Remake, given her moments in the game at the Mako Reactors, her unique Chapter 14 resolution, and just general feelings towards Shinra. The only issue is she didn't think Sephiroth was alive. Now that this is a thing, I easily see her having somewhat personal motivation and animus towards Sephiroth beyond what's been done to Cloud. If anything has been shown, the Remake does its best to give Tifa a far more weightier portrayal than just being the one who's there for Cloud and wanting to save him.

What is your take on Sephy revealing himself to the party this early in the remake. In the OG, correct me if I am wrong wasn't sephy only in Clouds head at this point? Much like the beginning of the remake. As you go through the remake the character building with Cloud and Tifa and the connection between them and Sephy in this game could be interpreted as personal growth between Cloud and Tifa because of the common enemy. Being that they are from the same hometown.

With Aerith however, I am kinda confused on how she knows of Sephy is the single #1 threat to the planet without having prior knowledge of or interaction with him in the past. Which brings me back to saying that Aerith knows more than what she is leading on to know.

 

[Ryushikaze]

Which is why no one should even be going this route in the first place.

The entirety of it is subjective.



To be fair, they seem to be wanting to flesh out this direct arc connection with Tifa in the Remake, given her moments in the game at the Mako Reactors, her unique Chapter 14 resolution, and just general feelings towards Shinra. The only issue is she didn't think Sephiroth was alive. Now that this is a thing, I easily see her having somewhat personal motivation and animus towards Sephiroth beyond what's been done to Cloud. If anything has been shown, the Remake does its best to give Tifa a far more weightier portrayal than just being the one who's there for Cloud and wanting to save him.

Let's not forget that Sephiroth killed her dad and entire hometown too. She has a personal stake in the battle with Sephiroth before anyone but Cloud. She's not a hanger on, she's got philosophical and personal stakes in this fight.

In regards to Aerith knowing more than she does, she absolutely seems aware of things she should be not, the bit at the ending absolutely included.