SPOILERS LTD Remake — It's like New Coke except ... no, it's exactly like New Coke

[Enthralled]

You guys all have varying misunderstandings of me, and expect me to reply to you, and it's getting beyond silly. The topic drifts away from the main point with each reply which only adds to the confusion.

I... never said that..? Please, re-read my posts bc I made sure to let it very clear that I do see how important Aerith is to the story and for Cloud. There is a context in my post that you missed: what BB was doing was to bring plot points related to Aerith alone as a way justify why CXA should happen which shouldn't matter. Her significance in the story will not change nor will she be less important to Cloud just because she doesn't end up with him romantically.




hahaha Thanks anyways

My bad, a general "you" as in hypothetically something someone might say. To address the arguments people tend to make and, frankly, you guys have a little too much awareness to make but in some cases carry water for.

Reminder, the original post was this and I had to stop to explain it to you.
"But it is related to Cloud, it ends with him shouting "nooooo". Point is it's a convention the game actually does follow. It's not so much a CxA argument as an argument against many anti-CxA arguments. Because many would end up devaluing an important character's relevance to our pov (which is Cloud) by arguing she's essentially like Jessie."

Clearly not talking about something you specifically said.

Who is making that argument, and where? Don't be shy, point it out. With quotes, screencaps, everything you got. I want to read that argument you speak of.


You can do anything, it doesn't mean it has a lot of sense.



Well, at least we can agree on something.
Cloud is boring without an emotional side, and Tifa brings his emotional side with great nuance. See: AC, where the only character to emote was Tifa (and Marlene, okay) because everybody sucked balls (well, not everybody, Yuffie and Cid were fantastic but they had very little screentime).



View attachment 5895
"Because I say so, that why!"
Great argument, mate.



Oh right. I mean, it's not like Tifa has motivations or backstory that explains in detail why she joins an anti-ShinRa group to exact payback against ShinRa and Sephiroth.

Back to square one then. Yes, my "translation" of your words was very much spot-on.

EDIT: damn people I'm trying to catch up!

You are just very lost my friend. You don't know what I am saying when I am talking about why particular arguments fall flat without attributing them to people.

I literally made a post explaining it all just for people like you and it's still not enough. You're not engaging, and when you do you don't know what I mean. And your translation was not correct because you had to admit to being wrong here. You're just mad at me for not taking you seriously.

So, in the Remake, who is saying that Aerith isn't as important as Tifa?

I think I am just in conflict with the way Aerith is presented in the Remake as a kind-hearted bubbly character. That exerts herself into Clouds life is very different than what I was expecting for the character. I personally found it off putting. She was way over the top but this is my opinion.

I found that Tifa's calm more reserved attitude is was what I was expecting from her character in this remake. However, I will say this. I was shocked that she kinda wore her emotions on her sleeve way too much. The way she was presented is not the TIfa I imagined. I was thinking that she will still be reserved longer. She did seem like she was not herself. (I am so torn up inside, debating this) I wonder if this was the original way that the Devs wanted to present her character.

Edited to add, I liked the Tifa that was silently going after Cloud in her own reserved way. Not the Tifa, that can't keep her hands off of him.

(what the hell am I saying!)

Aerith is more important to the plot than Tifa, stop getting it twisted. This is not hard to understand, this argument is just people trying not to get it. Not even just disagreeing at this point, just not getting the claim.

 

[Enthralled]

The line is super contextual. The exchange goes

A: Did you miss me?
C, looking surprised: Not really, he's tough
A: Yeah so what? Screw him!

It's indicative of Cloud not wanting Aeris to be part of the fight. He isn't being dismissive, he does not want Aeris in danger. The same sentiment can be deduced from his response to Tifa. Cloud and Aeris have built up a report in their relationship where their dialogue is more comfortably sardonic with each other.

That's a good point. I just assumed it was banter tbh. I mean the guy clearly would miss his comrades if they were gone at this point.

 

[LNK]

Yeah, that's true. Mine only taught me about real state value and how to be a jerk and that's about it.


His awkwardness is part of his charm (just ask Tifa ).

You got more out of yours than I did lol

 

[Graymouse]

My bad, a general "you" as in hypothetically something someone might say. To address the arguments people tend to make and, frankly, you guys have a little too much awareness to make but in some cases carry water for.

Reminder, the original post was this and I had to stop to explain it to you.
"But it is related to Cloud, it ends with him shouting "nooooo". Point is it's a convention the game actually does follow. It's not so much a CxA argument as an argument against many anti-CxA arguments. Because many would end up devaluing an important character's relevance to our pov (which is Cloud) by arguing she's essentially like Jessie."

Clearly not talking about something you specifically said.


You are just very lost my friend. You don't know what I am saying when I am talking about why particular arguments fall flat without attributing them to people.

I literally made a post explaining it all just for people like you and it's still not enough. You're not engaging, and when you do you don't know what I mean.


Aerith is more important to the plot than Tifa, stop getting it twisted. This is not hard to understand, this argument is just people trying not to get it. Not even just disagreeing at this point, just not getting the claim.

I am not going to fall for this again. You are clearly being abrasive here. You are not even willing to listen to others point of view. I think we will have to agree to disagree on this.

 

[Enthralled]

I am not going to fall for this again. You clearly are being abrasive here. You are not even willing to listen to others point of view. I think we will have to agree to disagree on this.

Maybe I am because I always have to juggle three different litigants of varying degrees of good faith. But if you wanna argue the girl who actually stops Meteorfall is only as important as the girl who fixes the MC that's your right.
However it's particularly silly in this Remake when they've only enhanced Aerith's importance to the plot. So if Tifa and Aerith were equal before, they can't be now. Really dunno why people need Tifa to be as important as Aerith just because they are love rivals. That's a minor part of both characters.

 

[Graymouse]

Maybe I am because I always have to juggle three different litigants of varying degrees of good faith. But if you wanna argue the girl who actually stops Meteorfall is only as important as the girl who fixes the MC that's your right.
However it's particularly silly in this Remake when they've only enhanced Aerith's importance to the plot. So if Tifa and Aerith were equal before, they can't be now. Really dunno why people need Tifa to be as important as Aerith just because they are love rivals. That's a minor part of both characters.

It is really interesting that your entire argument is based off your assumption that people here are trying to diminish Aerith's character in the story. Point out which post someone in good faith I might add, did this.

But, yet you are so quick to do the very thing you are accusing others of doing and blatantly dismiss what Tifa has contributed to the story.

By saying that Tifa is lesser than Aerith is down right asinine, and you are asking others to have a good faith argument with you where you are clearly not willing to have an open mind on what others are saying.

 

[Theozilla]

Maybe I am because I always have to juggle three different litigants of varying degrees of good faith. But if you wanna argue the girl who actually stops Meteorfall is only as important as the girl who fixes the MC that's your right.
However it's particularly silly in this Remake when they've only enhanced Aerith's importance to the plot. So if Tifa and Aerith were equal before, they can't be now. Really dunno why people need Tifa to be as important as Aerith just because they are love rivals. That's a minor part of both characters.

I think part of the issue here is that people may have a completely different standard for judging what one considers "important" in a story than what you personally do. For some people, the character writing/arc aspect of a story is far more important than the world building/plot-stakes elements of a story, for others it's sometimes simply equal to direct screen-time/dialogue amount and nothing else, etc. There's no one single universal objective to way to "value" the importance of character roles in a story.

 

[Enthralled]

Why can't Cleriths be nice or try to find something positive in Tifa. Seriously, I've yet to see a Clerith that does not hold an imaginary grudge or chip on their shoulder when it comes to Tifa. It's sad, very wrong for trying to debate and prove their sides, as well as quite irksome.

I can't get over how people think this fandom doesn't give Tifa enough credit! Bit sarcastic but I do notice this. A good example was that RWBY guy saying Tifa looked like a prostitute and everyone rightly raking him over the coals. A lot of people raking him were acting like this was a depressingly common criticism of Tifa when clearly the overwhelming response he got proved it was not.

Reality is this is pretty normal for ship debates. People become uncharitable to the other side or the other girl. And sometimes people aren't even trying to be insulting but just talking about a legitimate flaw the character has. I notice way more dismissiveness toward Aerith because Tifa is more popular, and it has a more ambient quality while disregard for Tifa is more pointed as it's coming from relatively few.

 

[Cat on Mars]

No guys you don't get it. He's right because he is. The logic is flawless! Ayn Rand would approve *slow clap*

 

[LNK]

If it wasn't for Aerith, the Lifestream wouldn't have stopped Meteor. If it wasn't for Tifa, the team wouldn't have stopped Sephiroth

 

[Enthralled]

It is really interesting that your entire argument is based off your assumption that people here are trying to diminish Aerith's character in the story. Point out which post someone in good faith I might add, did this.

But, yet you are so quick to do the very thing you are accusing others of doing and blatantly dismiss what Tifa has contributed to the story.

By saying that Tifa is lesser than Aerith is down right asinine, and you are asking others to have a good faith argument with you where you are clearly not willing to have an open mind on what others are saying.

Me saying "many arguments people have do diminish Aerith's role" is not exactly the same as saying "YOU are trying to." But I mean come on, I've read enough of your posts to think it's not unlikely you might unwittingly do it. I could as easily say that you don't want Tifa to be less important than Aerith because it really makes her love triangle victory feel hollow to you. It's presumptuous on my part but you are being presumptuous by saying I am "dismissing what Tifa does for the story" when I credit her outright in post you're relying to.

I really do not think you have a rational objection, you just think I am not giving Tifa the tongue-bath you think she deserves. Meanwhile you talk yourself up as some huge troll at Aerith's expense and I don't pretend those aren't jokes.

No guys you don't get it. He's right because he is. The logic is flawless! Ayn Rand would approve *slow clap*

hey do me a favor and repeat my position. I don't think you can.

 

[Graymouse]

Me saying "many arguments people have do diminish Aerith's role" is not exactly the same as saying "YOU are trying to." But I mean come on, I've read enough of your posts to think it's not unlikely you might unwittingly do it. I could as easily say that you don't want Tifa to be less important than Aerith because it really makes her love triangle victory feel hollow to you. It's presumptuous on my part but you are being presumptuous by saying I am "dismissing what Tifa does for the story" when I credit her outright in post you're relying to.

I really do not think you have a rational objection, you just think I am not giving Tifa the tongue-bath you think she deserves. Meanwhile you talk yourself up as some huge troll at Aerith's expense and I don't pretend those aren't jokes.


hey do me a favor and repeat my position. I don't think you can.

But I am not saying that One girl is better than the other, unlike you did on this very page.

Aerith is more important to the plot than Tifa, stop getting it twisted. This is not hard to understand, this argument is just people trying not to get it. Not even just disagreeing at this point, just not getting the claim.

 

[Enthralled]

If it wasn't for Aerith, the Lifestream wouldn't have stopped Meteor. If it wasn't for Tifa, the team wouldn't have stopped Sephiroth

Correct, but if everybody fucked up their individual contribution the party would never have beaten Sephiroth. So unless we're gonna argue everyone is as important as one another there are other ways to determine "importance." Aerith having the fantasy lore of the world surround her character and drive the plot throughout the story and overtly resolve the plot because she left the party to do so is just more important. IMO anyway. Other people might have their own basis for saying otherwise but I have not heard it.

But I am not saying that One girl is better than you, unlike you have on this very page.

"better" is so loaded. I have said "more important to the plot" to be specific about what I mean. If you interpret it at "better" then that's kind of admitting what I was suggesting about how you process another opinion.

Like seriously you really are too into Tifa is you can't handle arguing with someone saying Aerith is more important to the plot than her and interpret it as them shading Tifa. Can't imagine how you'd act if I said Cloud was "better" with Aerith. Which I am not btw, just giving an example.

 

[Enthralled]

I think part of the issue here is that people may have a completely different standard for judging what one considers "important" in a story than what you personally do. For some people, the character writing/arc aspect of a story is far more important than the world building/plot-stakes elements of a story, for others it's sometimes simply equal to direct screen-time/dialogue amount and nothing else, etc. There's no one single universal objective to way to "value" the importance of character roles in a story.

I understand that but I feel it would have been presented by now and it hasn't. Literally I've just been re-explaining what I mean over and over. Sometimes because I am unclear, other times because you can tell people are not used to being disagreed with here.

Wow, just wow.....

Point proven.
The most anodyne statements averring to the consensus are not proof the consensus here is well tested. You guys were discussing back on this page how this site apparently onesided on the subject. So either you guys just know what's what or this place is just used to agreeing with itself.

 

[Cat on Mars]

I actually wasn’t lol. I don’t know how that got there, must have been a mistake.

I stand corrected then.

A lot of people raking him were acting like this was a depressingly common criticism of Tifa when clearly the overwhelming response he got proved it was not.

Because it was and still is, and people are getting fed up with that bullshit. It's stupid to pretend that "not dressing modesty" is a flaw of character. Tifa has flaws, real ones, relatable ones, and they're not discussed because it's all about her design.

hey do me a favor and repeat my position. I don't think you can.

I have nothing to prove to you, you're the one claiming we're ignoring Aerith importance to the plot. I asked you for proof of that statements about how we were understating Aerith's relevance, to no avail. You claim we're dismissive and then act like a massive prick with more smuggness and snide remarks than arguments and common sense.

Fine, you like magical girls who save the world. That doesn't mean the MC does. You are upset we aren't impressed with magical girls as much as you do. You are mad, we don't care. You want upvotes and approval, I don't give a single solitary fuck. Stop projecting, it's embarrassing.

 

[TifaxCloud]

Aerith's importance to the main plot is literally out of plot convenience, plot armor, deus ex machina, etc. This is more of a critique on the world building and her background as a Cetra which is so mishandled that everything about it screams deus ex machina.

I won't argue against the fact she's more integral to moving the plot more than anyone else in this universe but that's quite literally because the game says "cause Cetra," and the fact they need to stretch her stories out to make her death more impactful.

 

[LNK]

Other people might have their own basis for saying otherwise but I have not heard it.

I can't think of proving you otherwise, so I'd have to agree with ya. What you're saying, makes sense

 

[Cat on Mars]

Ooh, this is gonna be good.

 

[Graymouse]

I understand that but I feel it would have been presented by now and it hasn't. Literally I've just been re-explaining what I mean over and over. Sometimes because I am unclear, other times because you can tell people are not used to being disagreed with here.


Point proven.
The most anodyne statements averring to the consensus are not proof the consensus here is well tested. You guys were discussing back on this page how this site apparently onesided on the subject. So either you guys just know what's what or this place is just used to agreeing with itself.

This doesn't prove anything by the way.

.

Like seriously you really are too into Tifa is you can't handle arguing with someone saying Aerith is more important to the plot than her and interpret it as them shading Tifa. Can't imagine how you'd act if I said Cloud was "better" with Aerith. Which I am not btw, just giving an example.

I am not sure where the disconnect is here but what else could it be considered. If I said the same thing about Aerith, you would be quick to say that I was shading Aerith?

Again, I never once said that Tifa is more important the Aerith. Not once. All, I have been saying is that both girls have equal parts to contribute to the story.

Alright, lets have a conversation here. If Aerith, like you said is more important the Tifa in the story, then please let me know how you came to this conclusion. What proof do you have that made you come to this conclusion. I have already layed out why Tifa is just as important to the plot. Lets actually discuss this.

 

[Enthralled]

I stand corrected then.


Because it was and still is, and people are getting fed up with that bullshit. It's stupid to pretend that "not dressing modesty" is a flaw of character. Tifa has flaws, real ones, relatable ones, and they're not discussed because it's all about her design.


I have nothing to prove to you, you're the one claiming we're ignoring Aerith importance to the plot. I asked you for proof of that statements about how we were understating Aerith's relevance, to no avail. You claim we're dismissive and then act like a massive prick with more smuggness and snide remarks than arguments and common sense.

Fine, you like magical girls who save the world. That doesn't mean the MC does. You are upset we aren't impressed with magical girls as much as you do. You are mad, we don't care. You want upvotes and approval, I don't give a single solitary fuck. Stop projecting, it's embarrassing.

It is not common to see people actually shade Tifa for not dressing modestly. In fact it seems like a lot of people like that aspect.
The most common fandom joke is referential humor at Aerith dying.

And I know you can't prove anything to me. It's not a matter of you not having to prove it. You can't. You've been trying to quite a bit. I mean this little screed about magical girls (in a fantasy game where the non-magical girl can lift tanks) is just the latest vain attempt. And idk what you're even arguing when most people here have explicitly stated they think Cloud did like Aerith.

Frankly you've been seething the whole time and it's making you reveal some things about yourself.

 

[LNK]

I'm not a mod or anything, but can we please be respectful of each other? That's the main reason why I like coming to this site

 

[Enthralled]

Aerith's importance to the main plot is literally out of plot convenience, plot armor, deus ex machina, etc. This is more of a critique on the world building and her background as a Cetra which is so mishandled that everything about it screams deus ex machina.

I won't argue against the fact she's more integral to moving the plot more than anyone else in this universe but that's quite literally because the game says "cause Cetra," and the fact they need to stretch her stories out to make her death more impactful.

Tifa being Cloud's childhood friend is also convenience. The fact it isn't magic doesn't change that, and this is a fantasy setting anyway. All stories are contrivances. It's impossible not to have a deus ex machina ending when a meteor is about to destroy the planet. Tying it to Aerith at least makes it come at great cost.

Tifa was actually added to the story later to replace the newly slain Aerith's role somewhat so if we wanna talk who is more contrived... it's not weird to have supernaturally gifted characters in fantasy. They gave her significance beyond her background by giving her actual character weight.

It's also rich for someone called CloudxTifa to say it's not meaningful to say she is important when people overly devoted to Tifa have been denying that up until now, and because Tifa herself benefits from plot contrivances to end up with Cloud herself (like everyone does).

 

[Theozilla]

I understand that but I feel it would have been presented by now and it hasn't. Literally I've just been re-explaining what I mean over and over. Sometimes because I am unclear, other times because you can tell people are not used to being disagreed with here.

Other people have also been trying to explain themselves over and over, I really think you're just going to have to agree to disagree on this specific subject, especially since the literary terminology being used here doesn't have 100% consensus on meaning for this context.
Text-only communication can obscure people's intentions/meanings and thus understanding of what each other are trying to express, misunderstandings are bound to occur more often, but that last bit was really unnecessarily passive aggressive. (though to be clear others who are getting unnecessarily combative/uncivil aren't helping either)

 

[LNK]

It is not common to see people actually shade Tifa for not dressing modestly

Idk, I think its pretty common that people only reference Tifa for her tits. Like that's the only reason people like her

 

[Enthralled]

Other people have also been trying to explain themselves over and over, I really think you're just going to have to agree to disagree on this specific subject, especially since the literary terminology being used here doesn't have 100% consensus on meaning for this context.
Text-only communication can obscure people's intentions/meanings and thus understanding of what each other are trying to express, misunderstandings are bound to occur more often, but that last bit was really unnecessarily passive aggressive. (though to be clear others who are getting unnecessarily combative/uncivil aren't helping either)

where? Where have they. TifaxCloud is the first and even that is just pretending there's something wrong with a supernaturally gifted character in a story where a bartender hurls tanks.

Idk, I think its pretty common that people only reference Tifa for her tits. Like that's the only reason people like her

Then the issue isn't people shading her a whore, the issue is people lewding her? They're related but not the same.