SPOILERS LTD Remake — It's like New Coke except ... no, it's exactly like New Coke

Ryushikaze

Deus Admiral Parsimonious, PHD, DDS, MD, JD, OBE
AKA
Tim, Ryu
Which is why no one should even be going this route in the first place. :awesomonster:

The entirety of it is subjective.



To be fair, they seem to be wanting to flesh out this direct arc connection with Tifa in the Remake, given her moments in the game at the Mako Reactors, her unique Chapter 14 resolution, and just general feelings towards Shinra. The only issue is she didn't think Sephiroth was alive. Now that this is a thing, I easily see her having somewhat personal motivation and animus towards Sephiroth beyond what's been done to Cloud. If anything has been shown, the Remake does its best to give Tifa a far more weightier portrayal than just being the one who's there for Cloud and wanting to save him.

Let's not forget that Sephiroth killed her dad and entire hometown too. She has a personal stake in the battle with Sephiroth before anyone but Cloud. She's not a hanger on, she's got philosophical and personal stakes in this fight.

In regards to Aerith knowing more than she does, she absolutely seems aware of things she should be not, the bit at the ending absolutely included.
 

looneymoon

they/them
AKA
Rishi
"nah this is all subjective lmao"

why even have forums if ^ is gonna be your response?
You made me think though, even if unknowingly, that many of the people who argue making Aerith the main love interest diminishes Tifa's arc are the same people unwilling to admit Aerith is more important to the plot or that her relationship to Cloud is still part of her character so removing that is diminishing the character. It's more or less the same claim. That needlessly denying a character something their arc culminates on or is invoked for said culmination is trivializing their arc.

I'm not sure if you were referring to me or Mako here!

I mean, I think there is validity in the subjectivity sentiment in this particular case. FF7 is a story structured just like any other, but it's also a video game, and one that has toyed with ideas of role-fulfillment and projection. It gets tricky to talk about because Cloud is part player in addition to existing within the confines of his world. The choice of which girl you like more is probably the biggest story element that shows this, and really has been the crux of this "debate" all these years.

There's a point in Tim Roger's Slow Translation of FF7 video where he says something along the lines of, at some point you see FF7 isn't really a novel (I'm paraphrasing here). With stuff like this, I think it really just comes down to whether or not you like cute pink waifu, big boobie waifu... or horny waifu if the others don't do it for you :monster:

idk. Legend of Zelda does this "everyone wants to fuck Link" trope as well. I guess cuz Link is a silent protagonist, there's maybe a more willingness to accept that Link can fuck whoever you want him to fuck.
 

LNK

Pro Adventurer
AKA
Nate
So the both claims, that "Aerith is more important to the plot" and "because of this she should not have something iconic to her character unceremoniously dismissed" became needlessly contested. And I am stubborn.

I don't remember seeing people dismiss Aerith like that though. They were just speaking on the LTD, not Aerith's overall role in the game. I will gladly admit that I'm wrong if that wasn't the case
 

Makoeyes987

Listen closely, there is meaning in my words.
AKA
Smooth Criminal
What is your take on Sephy revealing himself to the party this early in the remake. In the OG, correct me if I am wrong wasn't sephy only in Clouds head at this point? Much like the beginning of the remake. As you go through the remake the character building with Cloud and Tifa and the connection between them and Sephy in this game could be interpreted as personal growth between Cloud and Tifa because of the common enemy. Being that they are from the same hometown.

With Aerith however, I am kinda confused on how she knows of Sephy is the single #1 threat to the planet without having prior knowledge of or interaction with him in the past. Which brings me back to saying that Aerith knows more than what she is leading on to know.

For me, I think Sephiroth being showcased this early is the kind of dramatic presentation that will ultimately allow a deeper, more character-focused and dynamic portrayal for all characters involved here. From the moments of fear in Cloud's eyes, his emotional stress, his anger, his pain and everything else.. It's the kind of active characterization and film-like portrayal that is best served by a remake of this game being on a modern console. You can do so much more with the characters in just modeling their expressions and using voice acting than what was present in the OG.

The Chapter 14 resolutions are proof of this. The moment with Aerith was pretty powerful and extremely telling (while simultaneously telling very little) towards the mysteries that soround her. The moment with Cloud and Tifa was one of the most powerful, emotional and close interactions I've seen of these two character in anything FFVII related so far. And even Barret and Cloud's bonding was significant and powerful.

Sephiroth being able to showcase not just his direct threat, but his character via antagonism of Cloud and the others allows for a more character driven portrayal where the stakes aren't just saving the world, but also dealing with the emotional, and psychological pressure dealing with him entails. And Tifa being aware of the fact Sephiroth is alive and appeared in front of her own eyes, leaves open a new road in characterizing her beyond just being a bystander connected to Cloud. Part 1 of the Remake humanized her connection to AVALANCHE in very real, relatable terms. She hates Shinra and what they've taken from her. But she's also compassionate and feels guilt and unease over the blowback the innocent are suffering through as well. This is far more than what she was given in the OG and I hope they keep it up.
 

Graymouse

Pro Adventurer
For me, I think Sephiroth being showcased this early is the kind of dramatic presentation that will ultimately allow a deeper, more character-focused and dynamic portrayal for all characters involved here. From the moments of fear in Cloud's eyes, his emotional stress, his anger, his pain and everything else.. It's the kind of active characterization and film-like portrayal that is best served by a remake of this game being on a modern console. You can do so much more with the characters in just modeling their expressions and using voice acting than what was present in the OG.

The Chapter 14 resolutions are proof of this. The moment with Aerith was pretty powerful and extremely telling (while simultaneously telling very little) towards the mysteries that soround her. The moment with Cloud and Tifa was one of the most powerful, emotional and close interactions I've seen of these two character in anything FFVII related so far. And even Barret and Cloud's bonding was significant and powerful.

Sephiroth being able to showcase not just his direct threat, but his character via antagonism of Cloud and the others allows for a more character driven portrayal where the stakes aren't just saving the world, but also dealing with the emotional, and psychological pressure dealing with him entails. And Tifa being aware of the fact Sephiroth is alive and appeared in front of her own eyes, leaves open a new road in characterizing her beyond just being a bystander connected to Cloud. Part 1 of the Remake humanized her connection to AVALANCHE in very real, relatable terms. She hates Shinra and what they've taken from her. But she's also compassionate and feels guilt and unease over the blowback the innocent are suffering through as well. This is far more than what she was given in the OG and I hope they keep it up.

Wow, well said.
 

Cat on Mars

Actually not a cat
Doublepost, sorry:
I'm starting to think that the LTD isn't about shipping at all. Every new discussion seems more focused on venting and voicing grievances about the dev's choices... and about the fandom in general. How characters are treated and perceived by some fans, how it's unfair than some characters enjoy an underserved popularity or suffer undeserved criticism... *scratches head* I guess all that pent up frustration winds up showing in this thread because it's convenient, and easy, to attack each other's viewpoints than accept that maybe we are never satisfied.
 

Graymouse

Pro Adventurer
Doublepost, sorry:
I'm starting to think that the LTD isn't about shipping at all. Every new discussion seems more focused on venting and voicing grievances about the dev's choices... and about the fandom in general. How characters are treated and perceived by some fans, how it's unfair than some characters enjoy an underserved popularity or suffer undeserved criticism... *scratches head* I guess all that pent up frustration winds up showing in this thread because it's convenient, and easy, to attack each other's viewpoints than accept that maybe we are never satisfied.

If it was as easy as that, the entire thread would be only 2 pages at most long. It would be an easy I ship A but you ship B

and honestly I don't think we will ever be satisfied. It is just not SE MO to do that. :rage:

To get back on topic:

What are your guys thoughts on this interaction will Chocobo Sam?

Chocobo Sam

All there dialog options are there.
 
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Ⓐaron

Factiō Rēpūblicāna dēlenda est.
AKA
The Man, V
Every new discussion seems more focused on venting and voicing grievances about the dev's choices...
There might be something to this. I don’t think there’s any such thing as a perfect game. Quality is so subjective, anyway – one person’s trash is another’s treasure and all of that. You can approach it in terms of a judgement of “how much do people enjoy a particular creative work”, but that in itself is a fraught measure. We can be reasonably sure that Super Metroid and Dark Souls are better games than Shaq-Fu and Superman 64, given audiences and critics’ responses to those games, but if we take it too far, we’re just turning quality into a popularity contest, and I think most of us can agree that that’s not an accurate assessment of quality.

Regardless, what one person identifies as a flaw might be a strength to another person, and there’s really no way to reconcile that with the idea that quality actually exists. Entire books (most famously, Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance) have been written on this topic, and there’s really no way to reconcile the dilemma in a fashion that everyone will agree upon. We all agree that quality exists, and we all have a sense of what it is. But different people’s senses of quality may not align with one another.

So it ultimately comes down, in a sense, to the very reason there are now multiple topics in this subsection: people may be talking past one another, with no agreement on what the terms they are using mean. What is a flaw to one person may be a strength to another. A storytelling decision that is credible to one person may completely break another person’s suspension of disbelief.

As far as the love triangle itself goes – and I’m speaking in general terms here, because I haven’t yet been able to play the remake (yes, I’m aware this is a spoiler thread; no, I don’t care, since I won’t remember most of the details I’ve read here by the time I get around to playing it, anyway) – I suspect that Square Enix intended the object (or objects) of Cloud’s affections to be somewhat ambiguous in the remake, because I suspect they’re aware of the shipping wars and realise that pissing off one side or the other too much would probably be a financially risky decision. (Square Enix may be artists, but they are also in the business of selling video games.) I could be wrong on this reading – as it turns out, they weren’t aware that Trials of Mana had a major Western fan base until a few years ago – but this is definitely the reading I’ve gotten from following the fandom off and on, sometimes in great depth, over some fifteen years.

So basically, yeah, this:

honestly I don't think we will ever be satisfied. It is just not SE MO to do that. :rage:

Because if they provided an easy answer, they’d be pissing off one half of the shipping wars. Why would they do that and risk making less money on a project that they’ve poured this much money into, and that has this much hype surrounding it? (I mean, I might be wrong – they might decide, “These people are going to complain, but they’ll buy the game anyway, and controversy sells.” But that would be a risky decision, and I suspect a company with this much money and reputation riding on a project like this is going to be risk-averse with it.)

If it was as easy as that, the entire thread would be only 2 pages at most long. It would be an easy I ship A but you ship B

…Welcome to the Internet! :wackymonster:

…Seriously, though, the Internet (and society) would be a very different place if people were able to agree to disagree like that. It’s part of the (I’m going to say) charm (?) of the Internet. I’ll go with charm, but we could go with other terms if we were so inclined. There seems to be a certain aspect of the human personality that wallows in argument and disagreement. For me, learning when to suppress my desire to engage in conflict has been an important aspect of maturity, and I still don’t always know when to do so, or listen to my better judgement when it exists. :monster2:
 

Odysseus

Ninja Potato
AKA
Ody
I've thought for a while that the LTD was more about which girl you prefer than how much you care if they get with Cloud. More time with Cloud = more representation in the game, after all. So the perception of who's time you perceive as more "meaningful" could also be construed as bias on the devs part.
 

Theozilla

Kaiju Member
There might be something to this. I don’t think there’s any such thing as a perfect game. Quality is so subjective, anyway – one person’s trash is another’s treasure and all of that. You can approach it in terms of a judgement of “how much do people enjoy a particular creative work”, but that in itself is a fraught measure. We can be reasonably sure that Super Metroid and Dark Souls are better games than Shaq-Fu and Superman 64, given audiences and critics’ responses to those games, but if we take it too far, we’re just turning quality into a popularity contest, and I think most of us can agree that that’s not an accurate assessment of quality.

Regardless, what one person identifies as a flaw might be a strength to another person, and there’s really no way to reconcile that with the idea that quality actually exists. Entire books (most famously, Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance) have been written on this topic, and there’s really no way to reconcile the dilemma in a fashion that everyone will agree upon. We all agree that quality exists, and we all have a sense of what it is. But different people’s senses of quality may not align with one another.

So it ultimately comes down, in a sense, to the very reason there are now multiple topics in this subsection: people may be talking past one another, with no agreement on what the terms they are using mean. What is a flaw to one person may be a strength to another. A storytelling decision that is credible to one person may completely break another person’s suspension of disbelief.

As far as the love triangle itself goes – and I’m speaking in general terms here, because I haven’t yet been able to play the remake (yes, I’m aware this is a spoiler thread; no, I don’t care, since I won’t remember most of the details I’ve read here by the time I get around to playing it, anyway) – I suspect that Square Enix intended the object (or objects) of Cloud’s affections to be somewhat ambiguous in the remake, because I suspect they’re aware of the shipping wars and realise that pissing off one side or the other too much would probably be a financially risky decision. (Square Enix may be artists, but they are also in the business of selling video games.) I could be wrong on this reading – as it turns out, they weren’t aware that Trials of Mana had a major Western fan base until a few years ago – but this is definitely the reading I’ve gotten from following the fandom off and on, sometimes in great depth, over some fifteen years.

So basically, yeah, this:



Because if they provided an easy answer, they’d be pissing off one half of the shipping wars. Why would they do that and risk making less money on a project that they’ve poured this much money into, and that has this much hype surrounding it? (I mean, I might be wrong – they might decide, “These people are going to complain, but they’ll buy the game anyway, and controversy sells.” But that would be a risky decision, and I suspect a company with this much money and reputation riding on a project like this is going to be risk-averse with it.)



…Welcome to the Internet! :wackymonster:

…Seriously, though, the Internet (and society) would be a very different place if people were able to agree to disagree like that. It’s part of the (I’m going to say) charm (?) of the Internet. I’ll go with charm, but we could go with other terms if we were so inclined. There seems to be a certain aspect of the human personality that wallows in argument and disagreement. For me, learning when to suppress my desire to engage in conflict has been an important aspect of maturity, and I still don’t always know when to do so, or listen to my better judgement when it exists. :monster2:
Some really good thoughts here.

Though I doubt SE actually cares about shipping as much as we sometimes think they do. Shipping fans may be quite vocal, but I doubt it's something the developers really give much thought to when making the games.
 

Makoeyes987

Listen closely, there is meaning in my words.
AKA
Smooth Criminal
Which goes to show that the writers are very much aware of the LTD and are actively working towards erasing part of it.

By carefully framing the two women in the Remake as equally important, represented, and more importantly, actively removing the element of jealousy/rivalry that existed before. There's a very clear intention being communicated by strengthening the friendship between Aerith and Tifa, and having them not just overtly flare up in jealous feelings over Cloud. Their importance as individuals is more important in this depiction, and who Cloud ultimately may or may not be with romantically doesn't diminish them at all.

If it were just about S-E throwing bones to both sides of the pairing debate, they wouldn't take out a key part of said LTD that was present in the OG. I'd say its one element from the original that was lost that I'm actually glad for.
 

Cat on Mars

Actually not a cat
If it was as easy as that, the entire thread would be only 2 pages at most long. It would be an easy I ship A but you ship B

and honestly I don't think we will ever be satisfied. It is just not SE MO to do that. :rage:

Call me naive, but i've never seen the need for pitting Tifa against Aerith. I think I've alreay said that, but something I'm enjoying is how their friendship is developing (in the OG, it' was a "Now we're BFF!!" out of nowhere). I find puzzling why people do.
Maybe because I have a serious attraction to crackships I can't take shipping in this thread seriously viciously. My favorite crackship is Tifa&Zack, of all the things. Go figure.


There might be something to this. I don’t think there’s any such thing as a perfect game. Quality is so subjective, anyway – one person’s trash is another’s treasure and all of that. You can approach it in terms of a judgement of “how much do people enjoy a particular creative work”, but that in itself is a fraught measure. We can be reasonably sure that Super Metroid and Dark Souls are better games than Shaq-Fu and Superman 64, given audiences and critics’ responses to those games, but if we take it too far, we’re just turning quality into a popularity contest, and I think most of us can agree that that’s not an accurate assessment of quality.

Regardless, what one person identifies as a flaw might be a strength to another person, and there’s really no way to reconcile that with the idea that quality actually exists. Entire books (most famously, Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance) have been written on this topic, and there’s really no way to reconcile the dilemma in a fashion that everyone will agree upon. We all agree that quality exists, and we all have a sense of what it is. But different people’s senses of quality may not align with one another.

So it ultimately comes down, in a sense, to the very reason there are now multiple topics in this subsection: people may be talking past one another, with no agreement on what the terms they are using mean. What is a flaw to one person may be a strength to another. A storytelling decision that is credible to one person may completely break another person’s suspension of disbelief.
That's right. Some posters talk about arguments I've never seen and it's baffling. And when I dared to inquire what were they actually talking about, the defensiveness came out like a hailstorm. It's like a question equals derision instead of genuine interest.
In these terms, debate is impossible.
Also, some users seem to think debates on the internet are serious business... not for me. But if someone is rude for no reason, I won't keep my mouth shut for long. I give as good as I take (annd here I know it's discouraged, so I'll try my best).

…Welcome to the Internet! :wackymonster:
…Seriously, though, the Internet (and society) would be a very different place if people were able to agree to disagree like that. It’s part of the (I’m going to say) charm (?) of the Internet. I’ll go with charm, but we could go with other terms if we were so inclined. There seems to be a certain aspect of the human personality that wallows in argument and disagreement. For me, learning when to suppress my desire to engage in conflict has been an important aspect of maturity, and I still don’t always know when to do so, or listen to my better judgement when it exists. :monster2:
You say charm, I'd say curse lol
And you're right. Learning when to disengage and let go is a difficult life skill, albeit a rewarding one.
 

Eerie

Fire and Blood
I totally agree, this was my feeling while watching several walkthroughs. I think SE thought that the unfairness of representations between the two heroines may be true, and they wanted to please everyone, ala japanese style. I think in the OG they didn't really think about this, they created their story with the idea that people would understand that since Aerith died, Tifa was the only choice left anyway, they didn't think it'd turn like this for decades. They treated it lightly, and took years to understand why the fans fought like that. So to me, this is SE's answer to the LTD, whether they give it a clear answer or not.
 

Ⓐaron

Factiō Rēpūblicāna dēlenda est.
AKA
The Man, V
Thanks for your responses, everyone.

I should add that I’m… somewhat ambivalent about the entire idea of a love triangle to start with, anyhow. Although I suspect I’m borderline asexual, I’m also on board with Twilight Mexican in that I find the entire idea that love of any sort is a finite resource to be completely incomprehensible. If you love one person, that doesn’t mean you can’t also love another person, and that goes for all kinds of love – if we want to go with the Greek terms, then agápē (ἀγάπη), philía (φιλία), storgē (στοργή), philautía (φιλαυτία), xenía (ξενία), and yes, érōs (ἔρως). No one thinks that storgē is a finite resource; if a person has a second child, society never accuses them of no longer loving their first child. Yet somehow, if a person loves a second person (in the érōs sense), there seems to be a societal assumption that they can’t also love the first (in the érōs sense). And that’s the source of the entire concept of a love triangle.

I mean, people get jealous. I understand that. I don’t grok it – I’ve never experienced it to the point where it could ruin a relationship for me – but I understand it. But to me, if you actually love a person, that’s an issue you can work through.

However, I also have this possibly crackpot hypothesis that some people are wired for monogamy, and some people aren’t. (Some other people may be happy in either kind of relationship – I myself seem to fit in this category.) I’m not sure whether this is due to biology, upbringing, environmental factors, or simple personal preference, but some people seem to be unable to fathom the idea of non-monogamy, whereas other people seem to be completely unable to deal with monogamy. I suppose my philosophical objection to the prevalence of love triangles in fiction is because the third option – where it’s established that the focal point of the triangle loves and participates in relationships with both of the other two points, and everyone is happy with this resolution – is rarely, if ever, presented as an option. (And sometimes, the way it’s handled in fiction infuriates me on a visceral level for reasons I can’t rationally explain – don’t get me started on the ending of La La Land.)

The problem is that non-monogamy is still stigmatised in society to a rather alarming extent. People can face severe legal and social consequences – being fired from jobs, denied housing, ostracised by “friends”/family members/acquaintances/strangers – for practising non-monogamous lifestyles. The lack of positive representation for such relationships in fiction is a serious problem; it normalises the idea that there is something strange about them. It’s no coincidence that when positive portrayals of queer relationships began appearing more often in media, support for marriage equality also rose. Similarly, people have been becoming more accepting of transgender individuals as they have been portrayed more often in fiction. As many of you are aware, I have a great personal stake in seeing non-binary people portrayed positively in fiction; I shan’t get into a long digression from my long digression, but their absence in popular culture was a major factor of my not coming to terms with a major aspect of my identity until I was thirty years old.

And I think societal expectations of monogamy result in trouble in other senses. I think trying to force the square peg of naturally non-monogamous people into the round hole of monogamy just results in deception, infidelity, self-loathing, and broken relationships. If it were accepted that some people simply aren’t going to be happy being monogamous, and that there isn’t anything wrong with those people, we’d probably have a lot less infidelity and a lot fewer divorces.

So anyway, I’m not too fond of love triangles just on principle. Representation matters. The whole idea of a love triangle – that it’s impossible for one person to love two other people in the érōs sense – bothers me. It reinforces the idea that there has to be a decision between the two sides, and that no one can be happy if there isn’t one. But maybe the decision that leads to the maximal happiness for everyone involved is no decision. (As a great Canadian philosopher once remarked, “If you choose not to decide, you still have made a choice.”) Maybe the focal point doesn’t have to favour one participant over the other.

From what I’m reading here, it looks like there may actually be a possibility that Square Enix goes down this route in the remake, which naturally would utterly delight me. They certainly seem to be trying to nullify the idea of any sort of rivalry between Tifa and Aerith, which I appreciate.

In short, I probably wouldn’t dislike love triangles so much if they were handled better. We’ll see where this one goes – I’m trying not to get my hopes up too much – but maybe it won’t disappoint me.

ETA: corrected a few typos; oof. that’s what I get for rushing a post before dinner
 
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Theozilla

Kaiju Member
I totally agree, this was my feeling while watching several walkthroughs. I think SE thought that the unfairness of representations between the two heroines may be true, and they wanted to please everyone, ala japanese style. I think in the OG they didn't really think about this, they created their story with the idea that people would understand that since Aerith died, Tifa was the only choice left anyway, they didn't think it'd turn like this for decades. They treated it lightly, and took years to understand why the fans fought like that. So to me, this is SE's answer to the LTD, whether they give it a clear answer or not.
In regards to Aerith having died, I think that's arguably why the LTD continues to this day, @Master Bates and @JayM wrote on that subject several years ago, that I really think sums up how Aerith dying perpetuates the LTD rather than ending it.
JayM said:
First off, regarding Aeris being dead — I actually think that’s one of the main reasons the LTD still exists. If she were alive, we could see for certain how real!Cloud interacts with both her and Tifa, and if he were still living with Tifa and raising kids with her in Advent Children, it’d pretty much answer the LTD right there (though I’m sure people would still argue it).​
With her being dead, though, the LTD becomes a question of “What sort of story do you think SE is telling?” and, to an even greater extent, I think, “What sort of story do you prefer?”​
Not saying that all of the LTD arguments are about personal preference, because, if nothing else, the debate forces people to dissect their feelings on the point and look for evidence instead.​
But the point that I’m trying to make is that a lot of those who end up Cloud/Aeris shippers literally played different games and watched a different movie. Please, any hardcore C/A shippers who disagree with what I’m saying, please feel free to correct me. I’m going solely by observation, here.​
Theirs is a tragic/triumphant love story, where the death of the hero’s True Love at first throws him into despair, and then propels him to become stronger. It’s a compelling story, and it’s one that I feel can be supported by the text. It isn’t a totally off-the-wall reading. But it’s vastly different from what I think most people who wind up Cloud/Tifa shippers experience when they go through the Compilation (I miss being able to say just “play the game” ), and it definitely relies on a completely different interpretation of Cloud.​
…​
Aeris has a significance beyond just being a girl that he may/may not be interested in. She’s also The Hero’s Girlfriend, both literally as Zack’s ex and figuratively in the way that she first appears to Cloud — a healer, a caretaker and someone to be protected.​
Regardless of where you fall on the shipping line, Aeris supports the illusion of Cloud’s “hero” identity much more than Tifa, who is very physically capable and remembers Cloud when he was a weak little outcast. I think it’s easy to read Disc 1 Cloud as preferring Aeris for this reason alone, outside of any chemistry or “world of their own.”​
…​
For what it’s worth, I *do* think there’s a valid … I don’t want to say “Clerith,” in keeping with my belief that disproving one doesn’t prove the other. But there’s certainly an anti-CloTi — at least within the timeframe of Advent Children — argument to be made using cinematic intent.​
Now, I’m speaking as someone who’s been in the same romantic relationship for ten years. Girlfriend and I have separate bedrooms *and* I have my own office, complete with yet another bed. In real life, offices and bedroom arrangements and the like don’t mean anything about relationship status.​
However, in movies, showing the single bedroom is often shorthand for “romantically involved.” Showing anything else? Is usually the opposite.​
So, I do think it’s a fair argument to say the movie keeps it ambiguous. It’s not an argument I agree with, but made from the standpoint of cinematic intent I think it’s a perfectly logical one.​
Just my two cents.​
—​
—JayM​
Master Bates said:
If I may say something that strengthens C/A, it’s this one thing: *Aerith is dead*. So, yeah … I agree with Ms. Angry Lesbian [(JayM)] that it’s the main reason for the LTD’s continued existence.

How do I say it? I think a memory about the dead is beautiful, since when trying to remember them, we always tend to remember the good things and it becomes so bittersweet and nostalgic and painful that, for the most part, it’s just plain beautiful. Had Aerith lived, I don’t think C/A would have this compelling power to suck people in, to be honest.

Aerith’s death, while it remains its most visible weakness, is also the magic of C/A. It makes people think of “What if?” situations, and to writers, hopeless romantics, fans of tragic romances of imaginative mind — it’s an inspiration. So, yeah, I can understand people for liking it.



The reason why I am skeptical of Cloud loving Aerith romantically is because I don’t think he is capable of it on Disc 1. I am still under the impression that he wasn’t interested in either girl during the span of that disc. Sure, he flirts and gets attracted to some extent, but falling in love? Disc 1 Cloud doesn’t give me that vibe. He was more fixated on tracking down Sephiroth and ironing out the assfuckery inside his head.

But I am not saying he isn’t capable of having good relationships with them. I’m sure he wasn’t completely “out of it” during that disc. If he was, then I would also doubt the friendships he formed with AVALANCHE during that time. It’s just that he wasn’t thinking about romance.



I think Aerith, to Cloud, is a mystery. A mysterious girl he met at a mysterious time, who he has mysterious feelings for, which he is unable to explain. And she will always remain a mystery.

—Master Bates

Now whether or not the Remake ends up changing people's perceptions, is another matter entirely, even if it ends up being more "explicit" than what the OG and Compilation did/have done.
 

Graymouse

Pro Adventurer
In regards to Aerith having died, I think that's arguably why the LTD continues to this day, @Master Bates and @JayM wrote on that subject several years ago, that I really think sums up how Aerith dying perpetuates the LTD rather than ending it.



Now whether or not the Remake ends up changing people's perceptions, is another matter entirely, even if it ends up being more "explicit" than what the OG and Compilation did/have done.


Thank you for that reference, I spent the past 20 minutes reading that. It was well written with both ideas in mind. I am not going to quote anything from that because I feel that it will just be counter intuitive to do so because everyone can click on the Link and read it for themselves and it is not really about the Remake. Perhaps the Remake would finally solidify what was said then. Also, I don't want to make it seem I am being abrasive.

I tip my drink to the OG The Lifestream forum members and say "beautiful" :D
 

Ryushikaze

Deus Admiral Parsimonious, PHD, DDS, MD, JD, OBE
AKA
Tim, Ryu
In regards to Aerith having died, I think that's arguably why the LTD continues to this day, @Master Bates and @JayM wrote on that subject several years ago, that I really think sums up how Aerith dying perpetuates the LTD rather than ending it.

You know, reading that back, it reminds me that... there really is no equivalent LTD of any sort for DQV, even though picking a girl to marry and have kids with is literally a major plot point of that game, as opposed to the sideshow it is in FF7/R. And maybe it is because nothing bad happens to the lady you don't pick.
 

Yumelinh

Pro Adventurer
You know, reading that back, it reminds me that... there really is no equivalent LTD of any sort for DQV, even though picking a girl to marry and have kids with is literally a major plot point of that game, as opposed to the sideshow it is in FF7/R. And maybe it is because nothing bad happens to the lady you don't pick.

Indeed!

However, I must say is still wild to me that the LTD stands to this day when I stop to think about this. Maybe because my line of thought goes more along the lines of what @Theozilla said earlier here: "I doubt SE actually cares about shipping as much as we sometimes think they do." Tbh, I don't think they intended it to be as big or difficult to understand as we made it to be in the end.

But then again, this is the LTD that considers two people who previously confirmed to love each other, are living together and raising kids together as "not enough evidence" to be considered a couple. So maybe it really is because Aerith didn't survive in the OG, and the "what if" exists, that we never gonna see the end of this discussion :sigh:

Here's hoping the Remake puts an end to this matter for good. ( we know it won't ;-; )
 

Makoeyes987

Listen closely, there is meaning in my words.
AKA
Smooth Criminal
It's a combination of OG FFVII being such a heavily subjective video game, that also leaves the nature of Cloud's feelings ambiguous and mostly guided by the player. That sort of empty space which draws in the player's perspective allows for such ambiguity to exist and ultimately endure.

Even when the ambiguity isn't really so present anymore.
 
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