SPOILERS LTD Remake — It's like New Coke except ... no, it's exactly like New Coke

[Yoru]

To be fair, Zack was always Aerith’s love interest. Nothing in the OG game goes against that. He just came to greater importance because of the Compilation.

It doesn't go against, but let's be honest, she made her peace with his death way more quickly in OG. He didn't seem THAT important for her before all the Compilation stuff.

 

[Stiggie]

It doesn't go against, but let's be honest, she made her peace with his death way more quickly in OG. He didn't seem THAT important for her before all the Compilation stuff.

Not really, people think more stuff happened in the OG than actually happens.
In OG Aerith seemingly came to terms about Zacks death during the Gold Saucer date, same as Rebirth.

 

[Yoru]

Not really, people think more stuff happened in the OG than actually happens.
In OG Aerith seemingly came to terms about Zacks death during the Gold Saucer date, same as Rebirth.

I need to play it again then because from my memory in Gongaga she's way colder to Zack than what we see with Remake/Rebirth.

 

[GamerSkull]

It doesn't go against, but let's be honest, she made her peace with his death way more quickly in OG. He didn't seem THAT important for her before all the Compilation stuff.

That’s fair enough. But there’s nothing contradictory at least.

 

[GamerSkull]

I need to play it again then because from my memory in Gongaga she's way colder to Zack than what we see with Remake/Rebirth.

She’s says she doesn’t mind that she hasn’t heard from him but feels for his parents.

She also says she thought he must have just run off with another girl. Which could be recontextualized as denial after the Compilation.

I agree that it seems less serious and Zack is played up more as a ladies man in the OG, but nothing CC introduces is what I consider to be a retcon, more just… expansion.

This issue though that I feel some have is that this again, makes Clerith less special as a result. Which is, I think, more of a shipping problem than a story problem if that makes sense.

 

[LunarTarotGirl]

But we can always try to do things right, right here and right now. So let's play a game and try to change perspective !

My background is this : I'm a Tifa stan at core.

Unlike many people, never liked Aerith in OG. Pissed me of so much. And it's with the Compilation things that my view changed. From what I saw, Aertih fans kinda hate her Compilation persona. And if I'm being honest, I think Zack re-introduction in her life played a role. As a Tifa stan, it's free real estate lmao. All of a sudden, the rival girl don't have to cling to blondie boy anymore ! So yeah I can understand why poeple who were attached to her in OG don't like the Compilation stuff. It's kinda like a retcon. I would be angry if all of a sudden they would release a game where Tifa get a new love interest. It's pretty unfair in a sense.

As for Tifa : Of course she's not perfect. When Cloud fell to the Church she's strangely not that preoccupied. Never tried too hard to search for him. And her plan to go and ask questions to Don Corneo ? Dumb at best. WTF girl, what did you expect ? And yeah, one of the major complains are kinda true. She's too passive. I understand she wants to protect Cloud, but when things go south and he's really losing it, you have to talk and tell the others. You're putting them in danger.

Yeah me at first I didn't particularly like either Aerith or Tifa if you can believe it. I was one of those that got mad at Tifa for not telling Cloud the truth. I literally said to the screen in Mideel "You're sad huh but this all your fault" To be fair I was 16 and my views on life were very limited so I don't think I can take 16 year old me's assessment seriously in any way. However in general yes it was the passiveness I didn't like at all, and 16 year old me reacted unfairly and dramatically as teens do.
I understand her a lot better now that she was in a situation where saying anything could have made things worse so it was the best course of action. But I liked in AC when she said stop running. I like in Rebirth to see her younger self more confident and secure. I appreciate her strength so much now and how she preseveres even with the immense weight on her.

My view on Aerith has also changed. I actually liked OG Aerith years after playing. But at first I didn't like her either. Because I felt she was just too stuck on the past and that contradicted her forwardness. "Like girl why do you keep bringing up this guy who left you and telling this new guy about it this? move on. Forget that loser" and I saw her as weak over a man and hung up and boy crazy and not focusing on her real problems. I saw her going to stop Sephiroth as her being an idiot. Once again 16 year old me wasn't thinking too deeply just reacting. Her assessment is not to be trusted.

Anyway I thought both girls needed to get it together.

But the compilation made me really appreciate Aerith a lot. Especially Crisis Core. And I appreciated seeing how she had other sides the more introspective side, along with her confident and sassy side as we know her. Seeing how she chooses to love life despite everything that happened to her. That's still there. And I have maybe a hot take but in my opinion from OG Aerith didn't actually change that much. Not in the compilation not in Crisis Core not even in Remake nor Rebirth. Everything we see is Aerith as she is just different sides to her.
Someone pointed out Aerith in Remake is similar to how she was in the end of OG and I agree. I never saw her as different just she is showing different sides as her arc progresses. All sides that are still there and in the compilation and now.

And yes while Zack was there OG gives the impression he wasn't that important an aspect of her past. I truly believed he didn't care much about her in the scheme of things. Then Crisis Core comes and it's like oh here look how much she loved him! And I was not happy. Until I finished the game then I absolutely loved him.

I guess if we go by definitions I fit Aerith stan. She is now one of my favorite characters. I'm also a Sephiroth stan and I just don't really dislike anyone else now that I'm no longer in my hater phase or whatever I was back then lol I pretty much enjoy every character.

 

[Yoru]

She’s says she doesn’t mind that she hasn’t heard from him but feels for his parents.

She also says she thought he must have just run off with another girl. Which could be recontextualized as denial after the Compilation.

I agree that it seems less serious and Zack is played up more as a ladies man in the OG, but nothing CC introduces is what I consider to be a retcon, more just… expansion.

This issue though that I feel some have is that this again, makes Clerith less special as a result. Which is, I think, more of a shipping problem than a story problem if that makes sense.

Retcon is maybe too strong of a word yeah. But yeah I still think they made him way more important with Crisis Core than in the OG. I love Zack, and personally I ship him with Aerith. I'm just trying to put myself in the shoes of a Clerith. And I can understand why some felt betrayed and don't wanna have anything to do with Zack.

 

[GamerSkull]

Retcon is maybe too strong of a word yeah. But yeah I still think they made him way more important with Crisis Core than in the OG. I love Zack, and personally I ship him with Aerith. I'm just trying to put myself in the shoes of a Clerith. And I can understand why some felt betrayed and don't wanna have anything to do with Zack.

I mean… sure.

But that’s not surprising. To them, FF7 ends with Cloud pining after and unable to move on from Aerith. In this scenario, Tifa’s importance is completely disregarded. So it doesn’t surprise me that Zack’s importance was another thing they had to deal with negatively.

 

[Stiggie]

She’s says she doesn’t mind that she hasn’t heard from him but feels for his parents.

She also says she thought he must have just run off with another girl. Which could be recontextualized as denial after the Compilation.

I agree that it seems less serious and Zack is played up more as a ladies man in the OG, but nothing CC introduces is what I consider to be a retcon, more just… expansion.

This issue though that I feel some have is that this again, makes Clerith less special as a result. Which is, I think, more of a shipping problem than a story problem if that makes sense.

It all depends on whether you believed Aeriths words in the OG, which I never did. Or else why would she still bring him up on her first date, in Gongaga, and the sub-sequent date at the gold Saucer?

The interpretation that you call "recontextualization" was to me just the interpretation I had from the start made more explicit.

 

[GamerSkull]

It all depends on whether you believed Aeriths words in the OG, which I never did. Or else why would she still bring him up on her first date, in Gongaga, and the sub-sequent date at the gold Saucer?

The interpretation that you call "recontextualization" was to me just the interpretation I had from the start made more explicit.

Yeah, that’s fair. I guess that was the wrong word. Or rather, it works as both a recontexualization and just generally making things clearer.

 

[Sacky]

But we can always try to do things right, right here and right now. So let's play a game and try to change perspective !

My background is this : I'm a Tifa stan at core.

Unlike many people, never liked Aerith in OG. Pissed me of so much. And it's with the Compilation things that my view changed. From what I saw, Aertih fans kinda hate her Compilation persona. And if I'm being honest, I think Zack re-introduction in her life played a role. As a Tifa stan, it's free real estate lmao. All of a sudden, the rival girl don't have to cling to blondie boy anymore ! So yeah I can understand why poeple who were attached to her in OG don't like the Compilation stuff. It's kinda like a retcon. I would be angry if all of a sudden they would release a game where Tifa get a new love interest. It's pretty unfair in a sense.

As for Tifa : Of course she's not perfect. When Cloud fell to the Church she's strangely not that preoccupied. Never tried too hard to search for him. And her plan to go and ask questions to Don Corneo ? Dumb at best. WTF girl, what did you expect ? And yeah, one of the major complains are kinda true. She's too passive. I understand she wants to protect Cloud, but when things go south and he's really losing it, you have to talk and tell the others. You're putting them in danger.

The fact they cut a Tifa chapter that would have explained her thoughts and sadness after Cloud fell will always annoy me. there's a lot in remake that could have been removed that felt like filler but they removed a Tifa and avalanche focused chapter. It's so jarring to the player to next see Tifa in a carriage and react with cloud thought we lost you and then immediately move on. Intergrade showed a bit more of it but it was so weird the passive attitude especially after the lengths she goes in Rebirth and even at the end of Remake.

 

[Yoru]

The fact they cut a Tifa chapter that would have explained her thoughts and sadness after Cloud fell will always annoy me. there's a lot in remake that could have been removed that felt like filler but they removed a Tifa and avalanche focused chapter. It's so jarring to the player to next see Tifa in a carriage and react with cloud thought we lost you and then immediately move on. Intergrade showed a bit more of it but it was so weird the passive attitude especially after the lengths she goes in Rebirth and even at the end of Remake.

Right ? It's so out of character with what we see in the rest of the games. Like idk, just show us she did try something. Intergrade addition is welcomed but it wasn't enough

 

[GamerSkull]

To be fair, it’s the same as the OG. In fact, Cloud doesn’t even talk to her as the carriage is pulling away. Their first interaction after his fall is in Corneo’s basement.

But I do agree, having chapter like that might have been good. Although I’m not sure Tifa would be spending very long hanging on Cloud’s fall and most of it would just be her getting ready for the Corneo stuff.

 

[LunarTarotGirl]

Retcon is maybe too strong of a word yeah. But yeah I still think they made him way more important with Crisis Core than in the OG. I love Zack, and personally I ship him with Aerith. I'm just trying to put myself in the shoes of a Clerith. And I can understand why some felt betrayed and don't wanna have anything to do with Zack.

Exactly. Don't get me wrong Zack is amazing but the problem is they tried to sell him as a better love interest for Aerith than Cloud at a time CA's were pretty much set on Cloud as Aerith's soulmate. At a time when they hadn't actually expanded on Zack's feelings for her, when he hadn't been indicated as as important as Cloud in her story. And they did this very late. About ten years after the game released. I love him I do, but I need people to understand how Crisis Core didn't help his case in the slightest when it came to Cleriths accepting him as any viable match for Aerith.

He honestly felt like a consolation prize. "Cloud loves Tifa but here, have this. Also all your precious CA moments are now ZA moments. Enjoy!" Of course CAs were mad. I was mad too at first. Nothing before that made me consider Zack as someone I wanted Aerith to be with. And to say oh she was living similar moments with Cloud, that he had fallen through the church roof first etc felt like the biggest slap in the face.

I am sorry but it was just the worse way to show him as the true love interest. I don't think he deserved the flack but I can absolutely see where it came from.

Rebirth I can argue does a way better job of painting Zack as someone Aerith loves not because Zack in CC wasn't great but because it feels less forced. Less like "Here, you like CA but check out this guy, nice huh?"

 

[Sacky]

To be fair, it’s the same as the OG. In fact, Cloud doesn’t even talk to her as the carriage is pulling away. Their first interaction after his fall is in Corneo’s basement.

But I do agree, having chapter like that might have been good. Although I’m not sure Tifa would be spending very long hanging on Cloud’s fall and most of it would just be her getting ready for the Corneo stuff.

The ultimania said it was gonna have a sad tone at the start with Jessie and Tifa standing in the rain it would have also been good to have more avalanche talks. I think one issue with the remake trilogy is it's so faithful that it includes stuff that could be changed more. Rebirth Gongaga was the best chapter but Corel prison could have been cut since it was all filler missions with only Cloud. I understand plot wise though since we needed a chapter with Aerith but I think they could have done something better. Clouds fall just feels so insignificant no one really reacts to seeing him alive again. Which yeah with the whole plate falling but Barrett when meeting him again doesn't even have a slight reaction.

 

[Someonesbunny]

And you'd be surprised the number of CA's that are willing to accept Tifa, as a love interest some even as endgame. They just either believe Cloud loved Aerith too or they don't like the way the fandom talks about Aerith so they're not going to really interact with anyone. And no matter how people feel. It makes sense they wouldn't interact they believe they'll be shut down immediately or they think worse they will get bullied. And tell me with a straight face are they really wrong? Because when it comes to the extremists they shut down everyone including their own.

Honestly, it's not terribly surprising - you're right, we often see the worst, and what exacerbates this further is that its literal decades full of the worst, full of deliberate misreadings of the work in question, but we know the history.

As a point of clarity, I do want to make a distinction here given that this is probably where it gets murky for outsiders (and honestly, even some people participating in it) viewing the debate as it happens. Accepting that Tifa is a love interest is just an agreement on the most basic premise of the LTD with consideration to which of the love interests (Aerith and Tifa) does Cloud love. If, as a shipper, you prefer CA, but as a point of debate you believe that Tifa is endgame, then despite shipping preference, you do land yourself pretty squarely in the CT camp.

But I think that people are still confused by this whole thing and are actually kind of unable to separate the shipping from the discussion because it is true that often shipping bias does colour the discussion; regardless, however, it's never been about discrediting other people's preferences despite it looking like that. I have to say though, a lot of the worst offenders for misunderstanding the situation actually comes from those that like to make the "all these crazy shippers" statement as if shippers are not a major contributor to the fandom and the fan economy.

We need to have a dialogue but we don't so the devs saying anything just adds fuel to the fire. Meanwhile harrassers do whatever they want in the background of that fire. Thankfully now they are being called out. I hope that it continues. But the uncomfortable truth is that one side can't end it alone. And as we have seen this week alone neither can the devs and I don't think the responsibility is on them after this. They've done their piece.

But we still need a consensus we don't have.

So how would we get it? I wish I knew. I just know the situation has really changed over time. History we may or may not not be part of does play a role but it doesn't completely apply to everyone now especially when Rebirth brought so many new fans. And many are patiently for the devs to end it when sadly it's come to the point they just fuel it. The situation is just that bad. And waiting for the other side to concede means waiting another 27 years.

I used to joke that the only way that people would accept the answer to the debate, despite how clear I think it already is, is if the devs had a press conference to give that answer. We know now that that is not the case at all - a literal interview with the writer and apparently the writer doesn't know their own work?

I think the best the devs can do is to give a clear and definitive answer and walk away. The outcome would be the same in any case: one of the groups will leave the debate happy and satisfied because they won, the other side will probably talk to wall for the conceivable future.

 

[GamerSkull]

Crisis Core also made Zerith extremely popular. So that probably didn’t help because now there is further shipping competition.

 

[CldS7]

https://x.com/yokikotokiku3/status/1776262743328526522?s=46&t=ivxjxhkAU4je_TiXey-g9A

All this. I never realised but it’s right, when Tifa found out about that Cloud followed her up the mountain, she never questioned why, just that he was being a ‘hero’

Everything is about his want to become a solider for her…. I cannot wait for that to be revealed in the lifestream

 

[Sacky]

Honestly, it's not terribly surprising - you're right, we often see the worst, and what exacerbates this further is that its literal decades full of the worst, full of deliberate misreadings of the work in question, but we know the history.

As a point of clarity, I do want to make a distinction here given that this is probably where it gets murky for outsiders (and honestly, even some people participating in it) viewing the debate as it happens. Accepting that Tifa is a love interest is just an agreement on the most basic premise of the LTD with consideration to which of the love interests (Aerith and Tifa) does Cloud love. If, as a shipper, you prefer CA, but as a point of debate you believe that Tifa is endgame, then despite shipping preference, you do land yourself pretty squarely on the CT camp.

But I think that people are still confused by this whole thing and are actually kind of unable to separate the shipping from the discussion because it is true that often shipping bias does colour the discussion; regardless, however, it's never been about discrediting other people's preferences despite it looking like that. I have to say though, a lot of the worst offenders for misunderstanding the situation actually comes from those that like to make the "all these crazy shippers" statement as if shippers are not a major contributor to the fandom and the fan economy.



I used to joke that the only way that people would accept the answer to the debate, despite how clear I think it already is, is if the devs had a press conference to give that answer. We know now that that is not the case at all - a literal interview with the writer and apparently the writer doesn't know their own work?

I think the best the devs can do is to give a clear and definitive answer and walk away. The outcome would be the same in any case: one of the groups will leave the debate happy and satisfied because they won, the other side will probably talk to wall for the conceivable future.

It's this the people that just say crazy shippers and then romance doesn't matter in the story. Which just ignores the importance of the lifestream and Cloud as a character not a blank slate. These same people will say Zack will be the one to help him regain his memories which if they knew what the lifestream was actually about, would know why this is impossible and can only be Tifa. She's legit written to be the only one who can. We are just arguing character roles and storytelling now not even shipping

 

[GamerSkull]

Honestly, it's not terribly surprising - you're right, we often see the worst, and what exacerbates this further is that its literal decades full of the worst, full of deliberate misreadings of the work in question, but we know the history.

As a point of clarity, I do want to make a distinction here given that this is probably where it gets murky for outsiders (and honestly, even some people participating in it) viewing the debate as it happens. Accepting that Tifa is a love interest is just an agreement on the most basic premise of the LTD with consideration to which of the love interests (Aerith and Tifa) does Cloud love. If, as a shipper, you prefer CA, but as a point of debate you believe that Tifa is endgame, then despite shipping preference, you do land yourself pretty squarely in the CT camp.

But I think that people are still confused by this whole thing and are actually kind of unable to separate the shipping from the discussion because it is true that often shipping bias does colour the discussion; regardless, however, it's never been about discrediting other people's preferences despite it looking like that. I have to say though, a lot of the worst offenders for misunderstanding the situation actually comes from those that like to make the "all these crazy shippers" statement as if shippers are not a major contributor to the fandom and the fan economy.



I used to joke that the only way that people would accept the answer to the debate, despite how clear I think it already is, is if the devs had a press conference to give that answer. We know now that that is not the case at all - a literal interview with the writer and apparently the writer doesn't know their own work?

I think the best the devs can do is to give a clear and definitive answer and walk away. The outcome would be the same in any case: one of the groups will leave the debate happy and satisfied because they won, the other side will probably talk to wall for the conceivable future.

About your last point, I agree that even a press conference wouldn’t matter. If Tifa and Cloud legitimately are implied to have sex under the Highwind (I still think it will just be a kiss but I don’t particularly mind that either) it will still be denied.

The running theme right now is that Nojima changed NPTK because of Cloti harassment or Tifa got a kiss because the devs are just doing with what’s popular are all examples of cope that will still exist at the end of Part 3.

Like it or not, the LTD will never end… even with explicit confirmation.

 

[CldS7]

Like it or not, the LTD will never end… even with explicit confirmation.

The LTD will never end because one side refuses to acknowledge 70% of the actual game tbh

 

[Sacky]

The LTD will never end because one side refuses to acknowledge 70% of the actual game tbh

The LTD ends when majority people realise it's not player choice so we can actually have consistent storytelling and not have to argue about canon and optional stuff. Part 3 hopefully just has a non optional non missable scene that settles the LTD whether it's a confession of Love after highwind or something like that.

 

[GamerSkull]

The LTD ends when majority people realise it's not player choice so we can actually have consistent storytelling and not have to argue about canon and optional stuff. Part 3 hopefully just has a non optional non missable scene that settles the LTD whether it's a confession of Love after highwind or something like that.

The LTD still won’t end even with that.

A lot of the OG is not optional and it has still continued to this day. The Compilation also implies various things that are largely ignored to this day.

I’d say it will continue well past Part 3.

 

[CldS7]

The LTD ends when majority people realise it's not player choice so we can actually have consistent storytelling and not have to argue about canon and optional stuff. Part 3 hopefully just has a non optional non missable scene that settles the LTD whether it's a confession of Love after highwind or something like that.

The lifestream is not optional though and Cloud and Tifa both say they’re basically in love with each other there

one group just has never played this disk and never will

I hope it ends someday but it’s just not likely sadly

 

[LunarTarotGirl]

@Someonesbunny

I think the whole state of LTD is actually more complicated and nuanced nowadays than it ever was. I see what you are saying but I also am not sure if these camps apply to everyone like they did a decade ago. Because...I will use myself as an example...while I do think as a CA who accepts CT endgame and just takes whatever the writer says as canon... And that might on the surface land me in the CT camp. There is like 50% of stuff the CT camp believes that I don't agree with. Especially stuff about Aerith. So do I really fit in that camp?

Then the opposite is true I'm a CA and there are things I would say would put me in the CA camp such as believing in the potential of CA romance, not seeing them as platonic completely but then there is like 50% of stuff the CA camp believes that I definitely don't. Especially stuff about Ultimanias and Tifa.

So I don't really fit that camp either. But I'm not an outsider.

What am I? Lol

And that's the thing there are a lot of people in the LTD new fans especially who aren't neutral but where exactly do they fall? It's a bit more complicated because there are now many different viewpoints and maybe even more sides than we think. More new material has brought in new fans and more variety in perspectives.

That's why I say extremists have a spotlight on them but in general they don't exactly represent the majority which I believe is a lot more nuanced.

And why I say LTD discussion shouldn't really be based on them. The indicator to the end should also not be when the extremists concede. Because honestly snow in July will be more likely.

I think its more when we reach a general consensus that represents the majority, a dialogue that the majority of both sides (not the extremists of either) doesn't argue against. I believe that's when it will truly "end".