SPOILERS LTD Remake — It's like New Coke except ... no, it's exactly like New Coke

CldS7

Pro Adventurer
AKA
Luffy76
I've always wondered since Remake, because this memory has been alterated by Jenova. So it'll be interesting to see if there's any follow up or not.

From what I have speculated it seems like Jeonva has seemingly altered this scene from Tifa crying and then running there to Tifa laughing and running. Still unsure why 🤔

Unless it’s Cloud not willing to remember him failing Tifa and letting her fall in Nibelheim because she was upset over her mother and he blames himself🤔
 

Yoru

Pro Adventurer
From what I have speculated it seems like Jeonva has seemingly altered this scene from Tifa crying and then running there to Tifa laughing and running. Still unsure why 🤔

Unless it’s Cloud not willing to remember him failing Tifa and letting her fall in Nibelheim because she was upset over her mother and he blames himself🤔
Rebirth made pretty clear that Tifa is the real ennemy from Sephi POV.

So if it's really Jenova altering his memories, I assume she wants to push the narrative "Tifa never cared about you, she's the reason you were left alone" into Cloud mind. Cloud must never regain his true self. So Jeno/Sephi is trying real hard to ruin Tifa x Cloud relation.

OMG Clertih = Jenova all along !

(:troll:)
 

CldS7

Pro Adventurer
AKA
Luffy76
Rebirth made pretty clear that Tifa is the real ennemy from Sephi POV.

So if it's really Jenova altering his memories, I assume she wants to push the narrative "Tifa never cared about you, she's the reason you were left alone" into Cloud mind. Cloud must never regain his true self. So Jeno/Sephi is trying real hard to ruin Tifa x Cloud relation.

OMG Clertih = Jenova all along !

(:troll:)

Yessss

Praying part 3 gives us a scene of Cloud in is his uniform with his helmet on and saying everything to Tifa and she takes it off and says he was always the perfect hero she wanted not an imitation
:yass:
 

Ryushikaze

Deus Admiral Parsimonious, PHD, DDS, MD, JD, OBE
AKA
Tim, Ryu
From what I have speculated it seems like Jeonva has seemingly altered this scene from Tifa crying and then running there to Tifa laughing and running. Still unsure why 🤔

Unless it’s Cloud not willing to remember him failing Tifa and letting her fall in Nibelheim because she was upset over her mother and he blames himself🤔
Well, there are three distinct - as far as I can tell - minds at work editing Cloud's memories and imposing things on him. One is current Sephiroth, who is primarily denoted by a green tint, and analog static. There's future sephiroth who is denoted by digital static in the form of test pattern-esque visual aberrations, and I think Cloud himself, as denoted by a gray haze over memories. Check the static.

Rebirth made pretty clear that Tifa is the real ennemy from Sephi POV.

So if it's really Jenova altering his memories, I assume she wants to push the narrative "Tifa never cared about you, she's the reason you were left alone" into Cloud mind. Cloud must never regain his true self. So Jeno/Sephi is trying real hard to ruin Tifa x Cloud relation.

OMG Clertih = Jenova all along !

(:troll:)
Tifa is the true enemy to "Riftiroth" from the future with the digital nonsense, while current Roth is essentially proceeding along his OG plan WRT the Black Materia. It's actually fascinating that the two Sephiroths have different priorities.
 

CldS7

Pro Adventurer
AKA
Luffy76
Tifa is the true enemy to "Riftiroth" from the future with the digital nonsense, while current Roth is essentially proceeding along his OG plan WRT the Black Materia. It's actually fascinating that the two Sephiroths have different priorities.

I wonder how the Riftroth plot line will end hmmm. But you're right that is very interesting to think about
 

GamerSkull

Pro Adventurer
You know, some extreme CTs were way out of line during the release of the TGA trailer but I don’t like what I’m seeing on Twitter that almost generalizes all of them to be like this.

There are extreme people on both sides. And if CA fans did this, I’d be the first to say “well, that’s still a minority from that fandom and I doubt most of them are like that.”

Plus, CT fans showing appreciation for Nojima might not be the same ones that harassed him way back when either. It’s almost like it’s not that simple.

The cynical side of me almost thinks that this is something they’ve grasped on to so they can justify villainizing the opposite side. But I’m willing to concede I might be reaching here.
 

CldS7

Pro Adventurer
AKA
Luffy76
off topic but discussion in the Cloti thread and talking about the corruption of Tifa & Clouds memories in the lifestream. I always wondered what corruption of them could actually mean but if it ends up destroying them....
 

GamerSkull

Pro Adventurer
off topic but discussion in the Cloti thread and talking about the corruption of Tifa & Clouds memories in the lifestream. I always wondered what corruption of them could actually mean but if it ends up destroying them....
I expect it will probably come down giving more for Tifa to do during that sequence as far as helping Cloud piece himself back together.

That entire sequence will probably be one long chapter.
 

Yoru

Pro Adventurer
You know, some extreme CTs were way out of line during the release of the TGA trailer but I don’t like what I’m seeing on Twitter that almost generalizes all of them to be like this.

There are extreme people on both sides. And if CA fans did this, I’d be the first to say “well, that’s still a minority from that fandom and I doubt most of them are like that.”

Plus, CT fans showing appreciation for Nojima might not be the same ones that harassed him way back when either. It’s almost like it’s not that simple.

The cynical side of me almost thinks that this is something they’ve grasped on to so they can justify villainizing the opposite side. But I’m willing to concede I might be reaching here.
Classic technique : The lost of your opponent's credibility

When you're not sure to win with arguments, make the opposite side inaudible

In the end, whatever the side, it's just a loud bubble which don't weight for shit.
 
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CldS7

Pro Adventurer
AKA
Luffy76
I expect it will probably come down giving more for Tifa to do during that sequence as far as helping Cloud piece himself back together.

That entire sequence will probably be one long chapter.

Yeh I wonder if it ties into Sephiroth saying to Cloud "you will never know love" etc. If this is Future Sephs plan to stop it all. To destroy the memories that would make Cloud healed.

but even if the black whispers destroy the memories, Tifa's love for the original Cloud will mean he can never be forgotten? Makes sense that even future Seph would not see this angle because of how much he despises concepts like this
 

GamerSkull

Pro Adventurer
Yeh I wonder if it ties into Sephiroth saying to Cloud "you will never know love" etc. If this is Future Sephs plan to stop it all. To destroy the memories that would make Cloud healed.

but even if the black whispers destroy the memories, Tifa's love for the original Cloud will mean he can never be forgotten? Makes sense that even future Seph would not see this angle because of how much he despises concepts like this
No matter how much he tries to destroy Cloud’s mind, he cannot alter Tifa’s memories so maybe they’ll play up that angle.

This is why he’s trying to get Cloud to turn against her. She’s a threat to his plans, and this is the only way to get her out of the way.
 
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liuliuliu

Pro Adventurer
I expect it will probably come down giving more for Tifa to do during that sequence as far as helping Cloud piece himself back together.

That entire sequence will probably be one long chapter.
It probably will look like ch13 in rebirth, where you have to do a dungeon before watching the trials ( in this case the LS sequence where we follow Tifa to explore cloud’s mind)
Ch13 is a long long long long long chapter though, I got tired at the end. I didn’t find a good place to stop during that chapter…
I hope they can actually put the LS sequence at the beginning of a new chapter…at least I can take a break before i start it
 

Eerie

Fire and Blood
You know, some extreme CTs were way out of line during the release of the TGA trailer but I don’t like what I’m seeing on Twitter that almost generalizes all of them to be like this.

There are extreme people on both sides. And if CA fans did this, I’d be the first to say “well, that’s still a minority from that fandom and I doubt most of them are like that.”

Plus, CT fans showing appreciation for Nojima might not be the same ones that harassed him way back when either. It’s almost like it’s not that simple.

The cynical side of me almost thinks that this is something they’ve grasped on to so they can justify villainizing the opposite side. But I’m willing to concede I might be reaching here.
I know for sure that errrm some alts from the other side sometimes parade as Tifa or CT fans and attack Nojima... which is stupid because CTs fans love Nojima. And after the past few days honestly, I never want to hear both sides again my god, is it a festival of unhinged over there. I've never seen CTs do that, I know that we always report the bad apples here (yes, the ones on our side when they're being idiots).

As for the Lifestream scene, let's keep it simple please :D It was why it worked in the OG... New things and twists will definitely be added though, I have thought for a long time that it would be one chapter, seeing its length in the OG.
 

GamerSkull

Pro Adventurer
I know for sure that errrm some alts from the other side sometimes parade as Tifa or CT fans and attack Nojima... which is stupid because CTs fans love Nojima. And after the past few days honestly, I never want to hear both sides again my god, is it a festival of unhinged over there. I've never seen CTs do that, I know that we always report the bad apples here (yes, the ones on our side when they're being idiots).

As for the Lifestream scene, let's keep it simple please :D It was why it worked in the OG... New things and twists will definitely be added though, I have thought for a long time that it would be one chapter, seeing its length in the OG.
Yeah. There will definitely be an entire chapter devoted to it.

Although, I’m also excited to see the kaiju moment with Weapon right before it as well.
 

Eerie

Fire and Blood
With those pink and blue scales, are those Weapons created by Aerith? The one in the Lifestream? Hopefully we'll have some answers in the incoming Ultimania! Looking forward that!
 

GamerSkull

Pro Adventurer
With those pink and blue scales, are those Weapons created by Aerith? The one in the Lifestream? Hopefully we'll have some answers in the incoming Ultimania! Looking forward that.
Same. I think it’s out next week right?

As for Weapons, I get the feeling that original ones will be corrupted by Sephiroth to some extent.
 

liuliuliu

Pro Adventurer
But to be honest, I don’t like the argument that weapons of the planet are helping/protecting Tifa…which makes it sound like she is the “chosen one”…
One thing I really like in Og is that Cloud and Tifa really just feel like nobodies…
 

GamerSkull

Pro Adventurer
But to be honest, I don’t like the argument that weapons of the planet are helping/protecting Tifa…which makes it sound like she is the “chosen one”…
One thing I really like in Og is that Cloud and Tifa really just feel like nobodies…
I prefer that too.

But I don’t necessarily mind it this way either, considering I feel that CoLW Aerith and CoLB Sephiroth are involved so their presence may be causing this.
 

CldS7

Pro Adventurer
AKA
Luffy76
But to be honest, I don’t like the argument that weapons of the planet are helping/protecting Tifa…which makes it sound like she is the “chosen one”…
One thing I really like in Og is that Cloud and Tifa really just feel like nobodies…

I agree but it’s not that she’s the chosen one of the world

She’s just being protected because she is Clouds key

I get way you mean though. It’s getting too messy.
 

shady

Pro Adventurer
But to be honest, I don’t like the argument that weapons of the planet are helping/protecting Tifa…which makes it sound like she is the “chosen one”…
One thing I really like in Og is that Cloud and Tifa really just feel like nobodies…
I don't think it's the case of the weapons doing this because Tifa is some "chosen one" of the planet per se.

I think what the sequence is demonstrating is the planet, and therefore the weapons and the whispers of fate -- or maybe even Aerith in the Lifestream -- understand the utmost critical role Tifa is going to play in the upcoming struggle for not only the fate of the planet and the party but the fate of Cloud himself.

If we believe that Sephiroth and even Aerith have knowledge of future events, and basing what we know is likely going to happen in Part 3 from the OG game, there are going to be a big moments where the party need guidance, care, they need a leader and Tifa will be the one to step up, there are going to be moments where Tifa will face her own struggles but overcome them, and most critically there will be a time where Cloud will hollow out completely but then later find himself completely whole again -- both of these events are triggered and ultimately rest on the shoulders of the relationship between Cloud and Tifa.

Sephiroth knows that Tifa is the lynchpin to piecing together the real Cloud together again -- the real Cloud who goes on to defeat Sephiroth not once but once again in Advent Children -- nobody else is capable of helping Cloud this way because of their unique shared history and their unique unshared feelings between one another. Which, yes, even if some don't want to admit so, these are feelings of love, the romantic kind. Remake effectively demonstrated the complex and complicated dynamic between Cloud and Tifa exceptionally well -- but as of Rebirth, they've taken it a step further in a pretty lengthy stride in one direction, complex and complicated still, but also with a huge sense of longing and love mixed within. This is not only demonstrated through Cloud and Tifa themselves throughout their romantic arc in the game, which is full of the most classic and nuanced tropes you can possibly find in romantic fiction and cinema, but they also bring Sephiroth into the mix to really show the players (especially if they've never played the OG) just how important it is that these two remain as closely linked and as bonded as possible because the fate of themselves but also the planet depend on it.

So what you see in the Lifestream section rather then Tifa being hand selected as some "chosen one" is the planet/Aerith battling it out with Sephiroth to control the fate and the memories of Tifa going forward because if Tifa falters here, Cloud falters, they falter together, and fate is forever changed in Sephiroth's favour, this is why he's spent the better part of the game convincing Cloud she isn't real, sowing mistrust and discord. This is also why Tifa was made to relive her memory of realCloud coming to save her on the bridge and not abandoning her, because Cloud just attacked her, and whilst it's not in her character to hold against him actions he cannot control, she see's a reminder that realCloud is in no way shape or form that person and he would never do anything to hurt her under his own free will.

Sephiroth played a piece on the chess board in Gongaga in trying to push Cloud and Tifa further apart, only this time the planet/Aerith placed a piece back and used the situation to their advantage to ultimately push them closer together in the moment. Though we know that Sephiroth isn't finished because by the end of Rebirth he gets the last laugh and Cloud is pretty far gone and Tifa looks pretty distraught and upset and what she is seeing. But before this at the TOTA you see Sephiroth using a load of Black Whispers in an attempt to keep Tifa away from Cloud when he's manipulating him to attack Aerith, Tifa's influence is currently waning, Sephiroth said so himself in Gongaga with his "Your words can't reach him now" line, but that doesn't mean it's completely gone. Not only this but it's partially why I subscribe to the 'Aerith' is Sephiroth/Jenova theory at the Lake in the ending, this may turn out to be untrue but I almost get the sense Aerith smirking cruelly at Tifa as she looks upset is a sign from Sephiroth at how he has now been able to create such a big gap between Cloud and Tifa by the end of the game.

To round off my point though before I ramble on any further, Aerith and Zack are the "chosen ones" of Final Fantasy VII, they are the atypical fantasy heroes of such stories, what Final Fantasy VII does is flip that on it's head by having them support and ultimately sacrifice themselves in support of two country bumpkins turned hero's who's story and characters are so inextricably linked together that to have them apart means the damnation of the planet and the fruition of Sephiroth's plan.

I'm extremely excited to see what happens in the Lifestream sequence in the future and what this all means for it, but i'm envisioning an expanded sequence with their feelings explored even further than it was in the OG, because Rebirth has set it up this way. More extreme emotional turmoil before we get an satisfying emotional payoff in the Lifestream is what I envision.

Apologies for the lengthy post I realise you probably didn't need to read all this! It's just late and when I started typing I just couldn't stop haha.
 
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LunarTarotGirl

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Lunarae
I think the issue "with both sides do X, no they don't the other side is the worst" is that either side stays in their little bubble and hardly ventures out to get the POV of the other side. Especially on social media. It is an echo chamber. We only ever really interact with our own mutuals and usually curate our spaces and block those we don't get along with so it's harder for either side to see anything beyond screenshots of the other side's takes usually always completely out of context.

Each side then goes "oh but our side never does what that side does". When I who have mutuals on both sides can confidently say yes, they do.

However, it's usually outliers doing the worst things on either side, small accounts a few or no one interacts with and rarely is it brought up. Which is frustrating because they can go under the radar and do some pretty heinous stuff more unnoticed than a giant account with thousands of followers.
And it's harder to hold anyone accountable in general. Because of course we can't ever see any full interactions with people outside our own circles if they're blocked or we blocked them. I've had several CA mutuals though deal with some nasty stuff too. They just never bring it up publicly. So people don't really know what the other side is going through. They only see their experience which is understandable but it does create echo chamvbers.
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And in extension this is also a big problem with ending the LTD both sides aren't actually engaging with the other, not really in any meaningful way. There is again echochambers going on where again everyone responds through screenshots but never actually talks. Argues, insults eachother but never actually talks.
To end a debate we need to have a dialogue. A dialogue we don't have because other than maybe here neither side is actually talking to eachother.

And sadly I don't think there is much the devs can do about that. Any attempt to encourage dialogue is seen as them being conspirists or fueling the LTD. Anything they say is supercharged and used as another as was said perfectly bullet point for the LTD.

There is no real dialogue so nothing progresses. Hence we find ourselves seeing the same takes, the same arguments the same sentiment that it's the other side that's the problem "if they could only listen". When basically no one is listening just constantly responding. And each side grows more and more resentful as we continue to add bullet points to a debate we all honestly want to end. So I mean of course the LTD continues in that type of situation.

I think this whole situation with the interviews and songs and the can of worms anytime an Ultimania comes out just proves this more to me. While there is a love triangle because that's two girls and the focus of the feelings for the same guy I really don't think that's the problem or was it ever a problem to show two women have feelings for the protagonist. Or act on their feelings. I don't think the problem was these women or their arcs. I don't think the biggest problem has ever been within the story itself. I think it's just the situation itself and maybe the way it was originally handled and the echochambers built over 27 years.

So it's not the story that needs to end it I think. And that is the frustrating problem that keeps things going.

Those are just my thoughts on all this lately.
 
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Eerie

Fire and Blood
@LunarTarotGirl personally I know there are bad apples on both sides who attack the other side, but that’s not what I’m talking about here, I’m talking about fans who harass Nojima as well as content creators for the lightest stuff. I think it shows how badly this has gone - way too far! People should touch some grass and if they’re that unhappy about the canon maybe it’s time to reevaluate this game and if it’s good for you to be that involved.

And I mean that as someone who frequently tell an IRL friend to stop engaging in fights in Twitter because it really affects him (not fandom related).
 

Someonesbunny

Lv. 25 Adventurer
AKA
Rabbit
And in extension this is also a big problem with ending the LTD both sides aren't actually engaging with the other, not really in any meaningful way. There is again echochambers going on where again everyone responds through screenshots but never actually talks. Argues, insults eachother but never actually talks.
To end a debate we need to have a dialogue. A dialogue we don't have because other than maybe here neither side is actually talking to eachother.

I think before this even happens, we actually need a solid premise within which we pursue the answer, but, as you probably know, there are too many instances where we have people that just generally refuse to concede anything. Enough people here have been around long enough to know the type of argumentation this is pointing to, however, I don't believe this is a "both sides" kind of issue either. I think we just have to take one look at that old archived LTD thread to see just how weird it got.

To be clear, I have no issues with anyone shipping whatever, but as it is a debate on canonicity it is important to actually make a distinction here: those that debate the canonicity of CA often employ tactics that seek to disprove CT rather than prove the validity of their own narrative. In the past 5 years alone, I've seen the goalposts move in a way that goalposts shouldn't, where entire arguments are hinged on antiquated, already proven false premises and narratives such as "Tifa the Liar," "Tifa the Bully," "Tifa the Unreliable Narrator," "Zack the Unimportant Fuckboy," "Mutual Feelings of Friendship Only," "Low Affection for Thee but not for Me," "Optional for Thee but not for Me," "They Sleep in Separate Rooms," "They Raise Children Together as Friends," "They are Financially Co-Dependent as Friends," relying on release chronology instead of narrative chronology to make an assessment like "Zerith Copied Clerith so its Fake," and the list continues even outside of the microcosm of the FFVII universe and into the likes of, say, Kingdom Hearts which is an entire can of worms in and of itself. On a point of canonicity, CT's also generally accept that the "Last Order: Final Fantasy VII" is clearly not canon in a way that I do not generally see CA's acknowledge "Maiden Who Travels the Planet" also being outside of canon, both being examples of materials that are not officially part of the continuity but are seen as assets to each respectively.

I remember that there was even a time when the basic idea of "Cloud probably had feelings for Aerith" was largely accepted even by CT's, mostly because, at least by my assessment, they couldn't conceive of anything that could undo what the Lifestream Sequence and the Highwind Scene had given the relationship of Cloud and Tifa. If I remember correctly, this still devolved into a discussion that tried to make romance a zero sum game, where Cloud possibly loving Aerith first meant that Cloud must therefore love Tifa less because he is "settling for what's left over," while also completely insulting the kind of relationship that widowers and widows have with their new spouses. This further spouted new and bizarre claims which include, but are not limited to, "Cloud was just using Tifa" and "Cloud was thinking of Aerith when he slept with Tifa."

Now, none of the above is to say that CT's have never made a disingenuous argument - I've seen enough floating around to know that that's not true. All this is to say is that I don't believe that the CA's embroiled in the LTD are willing or able to concede any point at all about Cloud's feelings about Tifa and their eventual romantic confirmation for the simple fact that for a debate to end, someone must lose.

And I think it's clear who will.
 
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Someonesbunny

Lv. 25 Adventurer
AKA
Rabbit
@LunarTarotGirl, I also want to make it clear, I am responding to your above statement, but none of this is meant as a slight to you because I've never seen you engage in this type of thing. These are just observations of how the debate went through the years and our unfortunate history in the FFVII fandom.
 
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