SPOILERS LTD Remake — It's like New Coke except ... no, it's exactly like New Coke

[youffie]

You know, that's something interesting because I never thought it that way. Also what's interesting to me is that at this moment in the OG Tifa doesn't really talk, if you try she will be "..." so I think they amped up that at least. Not sure though for Sephiroth trying to weaken her since he was so focused on Cloud though - and since she had already proven that she couldn't do anything in ToA against him.

Sorry, I wasn’t very clear. I didn’t mean weaken Tifa per se, as I don’t think that Tifa not being able to reach Cloud at this point matters that much in the great scheme of things. I meant more… break her faith in Cloud irreparably, so that she gives up on him, so that the Lifestream sequence never happens. That’s it, that’s all Sephiroth needs; Cloud breaking is not the goal, it’s a given.

The question is... how, as that seems almost antithetical to her arc and character. In Rebirth we saw that he tried to make Cloud distrust and attack her, and it backfired; he tried to kill her himself, and it looks like it’s not that easy, because there seem to be limitations to what he can do and other forces are at play. So maybe he needs to try a less direct approach, and maybe we’re already seeing the first fruits of said approach in the ending – with Tifa being barely able to look at Cloud. So, could there be something that would be too far even for her?

Unlike the original, the party doesn’t seem to witness the actual murder here, I think? I’m just spitballing here, but if I were Sephiroth under this specific set of circumstances that I’ve created, I’d tap into her deepest fear and lie my ass off, telling her that Cloud was the one who killed Aerith for him – actually, he also totally killed Zack and that’s how he got that sword in case you were wondering, why not. It’s plausible enough; after all, he did almost murder Tifa too, and many other people right in front of her, from the very beginning. In fact, this could even trigger some ripple effects, with Tifa realizing that by choosing to believe in Cloud and not disclosing what really happened in Gongaga (I think?) she has put not just herself, but the whole party in danger, and it got Aerith killed. Maybe it could even break the party itself.

Just a thought.

 

[Stiggie]

I hope they'll have an affection system where you can get either a good or bad highwind sequence, and I hope that if you don't end up sleeping with Tifa, Sephiroth wins XD

 

[CldS7]

Sorry, I wasn’t very clear. I didn’t mean weaken Tifa per se, as I don’t think that Tifa not being able to reach Cloud at this point matters that much in the great scheme of things. I meant more… break her faith in Cloud irreparably, so that she gives up on him, so that the Lifestream sequence never happens. That’s it, that’s all Sephiroth needs; Cloud breaking is not the goal, it’s a given.

The question is... how, as that seems almost antithetical to her arc and character. In Rebirth we saw that he tried to make Cloud distrust and attack her, and it backfired; he tried to kill her himself, and it looks like it’s not that easy, because there seem to be limitations to what he can do and other forces are at play. So maybe he needs to try a less direct approach, and maybe we’re already seeing the first fruits of said approach in the ending – with Tifa being barely able to look at Cloud. So, could there be something that would be too far even for her?

Unlike the original, the party doesn’t seem to witness the actual murder here, I think? I’m just spitballing here, but if I were Sephiroth under this specific set of circumstances that I’ve created, I’d tap into her deepest fear and lie my ass off, telling her that Cloud was the one who killed Aerith for him – actually, he also totally killed Zack and that’s how he got that sword in case you were wondering, why not. It’s plausible enough; after all, he did almost murder Tifa too, and many other people right in front of her, from the very beginning. In fact, this could even trigger some ripple effects, with Tifa realizing that by choosing to believe in Cloud and not disclosing what really happened in Gongaga (I think?) she has put not just herself, but the whole party in danger, and it got Aerith killed. Maybe it could even break the party itself.

Just a thought.

That’s interesting. I don’t see how they could ever recover from that though and why she’d stay with Cloud in Mideal. But I think you’re on the right track with some of it

Tbh I think it all ties back to Sephiroth not understanding about love and emotions

So I think that’s the key thing here

 

[Yoru]

Sorry, I wasn’t very clear. I didn’t mean weaken Tifa per se, as I don’t think that Tifa not being able to reach Cloud at this point matters that much in the great scheme of things. I meant more… break her faith in Cloud irreparably, so that she gives up on him, so that the Lifestream sequence never happens. That’s it, that’s all Sephiroth needs; Cloud breaking is not the goal, it’s a given.

The question is... how, as that seems almost antithetical to her arc and character. In Rebirth we saw that he tried to make Cloud distrust and attack her, and it backfired; he tried to kill her himself, and it looks like it’s not that easy, because there seem to be limitations to what he can do and other forces are at play. So maybe he needs to try a less direct approach, and maybe we’re already seeing the first fruits of said approach in the ending – with Tifa being barely able to look at Cloud. So, could there be something that would be too far even for her?

Unlike the original, the party doesn’t seem to witness the actual murder here, I think? I’m just spitballing here, but if I were Sephiroth under this specific set of circumstances that I’ve created, I’d tap into her deepest fear and lie my ass off, telling her that Cloud was the one who killed Aerith for him – actually, he also totally killed Zack and that’s how he got that sword in case you were wondering, why not. It’s plausible enough; after all, he did almost murder Tifa too, and many other people right in front of her, from the very beginning. In fact, this could even trigger some ripple effects, with Tifa realizing that by choosing to believe in Cloud and not disclosing what really happened in Gongaga (I think?) she has put not just herself, but the whole party in danger, and it got Aerith killed. Maybe it could even break the party itself.

Just a thought.

I think you're into something. Pushing the idea of murderer Cloud is maybe too much imo. But i'm totally with you with the fact that at the end of Rebirth, Aerith death is weighing much more heavily on Tifa than Cloud. This is the moment in game where they're the furthest apart from each other we've ever seen. Tifa didn't speak a word since the end of the game. Pretty powerful.

 

[youffie]

Oh yeah, I also don't know how you'd get back from that, which is why I said if I were Sephiroth and not if I were the writer. Then again, just because Sephiroth tries something doesn't mean it's going to work 100% as intended, and I think it would be weird if all he has planned for the Tifa problem after Gongaga is doubling down on Cloud. He can also mostly get to her indirectly through Cloud, if Rebirth was any indication, and he hasn't much time left.

 

[CldS7]

Oh yeah, I also don't know how you'd get back from that, which is why I said if I were Sephiroth and not if I were the writer. Then again, just because Sephiroth tries something doesn't mean it's going to work 100% as intended, and I think it would be weird if all he has planned for the Tifa problem after Gongaga is doubling down on Cloud. He can also mostly get to her indirectly through Cloud, if Rebirth was any indication, and he hasn't much time left.

yeh I think the key thing is that even though Cloud loses it because he thinks Tifa's faith in him is lost in Northern Crater the reality is that she never did and never will give up on him

so I guess they can play up that angle more as well

 

[cgnVirtue]

Sorry, I wasn’t very clear. I didn’t mean weaken Tifa per se, as I don’t think that Tifa not being able to reach Cloud at this point matters that much in the great scheme of things. I meant more… break her faith in Cloud irreparably, so that she gives up on him, so that the Lifestream sequence never happens. That’s it, that’s all Sephiroth needs; Cloud breaking is not the goal, it’s a given.

The question is... how, as that seems almost antithetical to her arc and character. In Rebirth we saw that he tried to make Cloud distrust and attack her, and it backfired; he tried to kill her himself, and it looks like it’s not that easy, because there seem to be limitations to what he can do and other forces are at play. So maybe he needs to try a less direct approach, and maybe we’re already seeing the first fruits of said approach in the ending – with Tifa being barely able to look at Cloud. So, could there be something that would be too far even for her?

Unlike the original, the party doesn’t seem to witness the actual murder here, I think? I’m just spitballing here, but if I were Sephiroth under this specific set of circumstances that I’ve created, I’d tap into her deepest fear and lie my ass off, telling her that Cloud was the one who killed Aerith for him – actually, he also totally killed Zack and that’s how he got that sword in case you were wondering, why not. It’s plausible enough; after all, he did almost murder Tifa too, and many other people right in front of her, from the very beginning. In fact, this could even trigger some ripple effects, with Tifa realizing that by choosing to believe in Cloud and not disclosing what really happened in Gongaga (I think?) she has put not just herself, but the whole party in danger, and it got Aerith killed. Maybe it could even break the party itself.

Just a thought.

You know I actually thought of something really similar to this. Like, what if Sephiroth killed Aerith not to break Cloud specifically, but to break Aerith’s best friend. Perhaps he knew Cloud would already be under his control, but that’s not enough. Perhaps he’s annoyed that Tifa’s able to bring ground Cloud and bring him back to reality. He can’t kill Cloud, and he can’t kill Tifa directly.

It’s kind of funny too because I have another thought I’ve had brewing for a while. I think the scene in Gongaga where Cloud tries to save Tifa was the perfect storm. I don’t know if anyone’s brought this up before, but hear me out here. Cloud sees Tifa in danger from Scarlet and he stumbles to her rescue despite being weakened severely hindered by (what I think is) Mako poisoning. He’s faced with a squad of Shinra troops as the only obstacle between him and the girl he loves. (Sound like anyone else we know? ).
Cloud, deep down, having his inferiority complex, likely doubts himself and sees Sephiroth. But notice that Sephiroth doesn’t threaten him or even oppose him. There aren’t even any ominous or ambiguous words. It’s like he encourages him. “Let that righteous anger guide you.” Sephiroth knows Cloud wants to be a hero. He also knows how much Tifa means to Cloud. In a moment of weakness, Cloud, whether directly or subconsciously, lets Sephiroth in. And that was all Sephiroth needed. Cloud thought he denied him, but what happens next? Instead of mimicking his friend Zack selflessly charging into battle, we see a that Cloud completely and effortlessly dismantles an entire battalion just like Sephiroth would. He even switches to his left hand at the end, Sephiroth’s dominant hand, when he impales the last guy.
Alright, that was brutal. But Tifa’s safe, mission accomplished right?
No. He was able to tap into Cloud’s deepest desire. And from there he’s able to stay in Cloud’s head to convince him to hurt Tifa.
Cloud fails to follow through fully, so he takes matters into his own hands. But he can’t really hurt the Weapon. Which brings me back to the previous point.

He can’t get Cloud to hurt Tifa, he can’t hurt Tifa directly, so what can he do?
He kills Aerith. But why would he do that if he needs to get rid of Tifa?
Because Tifa was her best friend. And as we can see, Cloud fails to save Aerith. A double whammy. He’s able to hurt them both. Under normal circumstances, this would be less than a bump in the road. They’ve had each other the whole game. Both of them share unique trauma. But while Tifa’s been able to grieve, Cloud never got the chance to. Cloud lost his village, his mom, thought he lost Tifa (and he couldn’t actually save her again), then he was experimented on for 5 years. Then he watches his best friend die and suddenly he’s back then one of his close friends in Aerith, dies, and he couldn’t save any of them.
I have no proof of this, but I think Sephiroth knew how Cloud would react from being allowed access to his head in Gongaga. Like Cloud’s been doing this whole time, he’s lying to himself to repress his trauma. Zack didn’t die, Zack never was. Or he’s Zack. Aerith didn’t die, he saved her right? She’s right there after all.

We also have Tifa who just witnessed her best friend die. But now she doesn’t have Cloud. And why doesn’t she? Because he hasn’t faced the truth. And she’s kept the truth from him and as we know in Rebirth she’s confided in Aerith about the discrepancies in Cloud’s memories. So it’s an interesting thought that Tifa might also feel intense guilt. Because in a way, she’s losing Cloud because he doesn’t know the truth. Or he just can’t face the truth. And she lost Aerith as a result of all of this snowballing. The difference between them dealing with Aerith’s death seems to be tearing them apart by the end of the game. Which is what I think Sephiroth intended to happen. A triple whammy, I guess. Aerith (to his knowledge) is out of the picture, Cloud is so mentally unstable, and Tifa doesn’t have the support of Cloud at all, the person she needs most.

Hooo wow that was a ramble . I hope all of that makes sense.

Edit: probably shouldn’t have made this post at 2am, but it is what it is. If I make no sense I am willing to elaborate lmao.

 

[CldS7]

You know I actually thought of something really similar to this. Like, what if Sephiroth killed Aerith not to break Cloud specifically, but to break Aerith’s best friend. Perhaps he knew Cloud would already be under his control, but that’s not enough. Perhaps he’s annoyed that Tifa’s able to bring ground Cloud and bring him back to reality. He can’t kill Cloud, and he can’t kill Tifa directly.

It’s kind of funny too because I have another thought I’ve had brewing for a while. I think the scene in Gongaga where Cloud tries to save Tifa was the perfect storm. I don’t know if anyone’s brought this up before, but hear me out here. Cloud sees Tifa in danger from Scarlet and he stumbles to her rescue despite being weakened severely hindered by (what I think is) Mako poisoning. He’s faced with a squad of Shinra troops as the only obstacle between him and the girl he loves. (Sound like anyone else we know? ).
Cloud, deep down, having his inferiority complex, likely doubts himself and sees Sephiroth. But notice that Sephiroth doesn’t threaten him or even oppose him. There aren’t even any ominous or ambiguous words. It’s like he encourages him. “Let that righteous anger guide you.” Sephiroth knows Cloud wants to be a hero. He also knows how much Tifa means to Cloud. In a moment of weakness, Cloud, whether directly or subconsciously, lets Sephiroth in. And that was all Sephiroth needed. Cloud thought he denied him, but what happens next? Instead of mimicking his friend Zack selflessly charging into battle, we see a that Cloud completely and effortlessly dismantles an entire battalion just like Sephiroth would. He even switches to his left hand at the end, Sephiroth’s dominant hand, when he impales the last guy.
Alright, that was brutal. But Tifa’s safe, mission accomplished right?
No. He was able to tap into Cloud’s deepest desire. And from there he’s able to stay in Cloud’s head to convince him to hurt Tifa.
Cloud fails to follow through fully, so he takes matters into his own hands. But he can’t really hurt the Weapon. Which brings me back to the previous point.

He can’t get Cloud to hurt Tifa, he can’t hurt Tifa directly, so what can he do?
He kills Aerith. But why would he do that if he needs to get rid of Tifa?
Because Tifa was her best friend. And as we can see, Cloud fails to save Aerith. A double whammy. He’s able to hurt them both. Under normal circumstances, this would be less than a bump in the road. They’ve had each other the whole game. Both of them share unique trauma. But while Tifa’s been able to grieve, Cloud never got the chance to. Cloud lost his village, his mom, thought he lost Tifa (and he couldn’t actually save her again), then he was experimented on for 5 years. Then he watches his best friend die and suddenly he’s back then one of his close friends in Aerith, dies, and he couldn’t save any of them.
I have no proof of this, but I think Sephiroth knew how Cloud would react from being allowed access to his head in Gongaga. Like Cloud’s been doing this whole time, he’s lying to himself to repress his trauma. Zack didn’t die, Zack never was. Or he’s Zack. Aerith didn’t die, he saved her right? She’s right there after all.

We also have Tifa who just witnessed her best friend die. But now she doesn’t have Cloud. And why doesn’t she? Because he hasn’t faced the truth. And she’s kept the truth from him and as we know in Rebirth she’s confided in Aerith about the discrepancies in Cloud’s memories. So it’s an interesting thought that Tifa might also feel intense guilt. Because in a way, she’s losing Cloud because he doesn’t know the truth. Or he just can’t face the truth. And she lost Aerith as a result of all of this snowballing. The difference between them dealing with Aerith’s death seems to be tearing them apart by the end of the game. Which is what I think Sephiroth intended to happen. A triple whammy, I guess. Aerith (to his knowledge) is out of the picture, Cloud is so mentally unstable, and Tifa doesn’t have the support of Cloud at all, the person she needs most.

Hooo wow that was a ramble . I hope all of that makes sense.

Edit: probably shouldn’t have made this post at 2am, but it is what it is. If I make no sense I am willing to elaborate lmao.

no it makes sense. I just wonder how the rest of the northern crater will go and Mideal to Lifestream will go if this is the case

but yeh a lot of this lines up with what Seph and Tifa say in the lifestream

"your words cant reach him anymore"
"please Cloud I need you"

just curious how they resolve it tbh

 

[youffie]

I don’t think he killed Aerith for Tifa or Cloud, he killed her for the same reason he targets Tifa or Cloud: because they're a threat. But why let a good mindfuck go to waste when it can further his goals.

I definitely got the impression that Sephiroth planned Gongaga very carefully, luring Cloud in a place where he’d be more vulnerable and then immediately acting when he had the chance. The whole sequence was the only Sephiroth scene since the OG I genuinely liked: manipulative but for a specific goal that is clearly communicated, deadly and actually dangerous, with apparent limitations that force him to think out of the box, straight to the point. He even keeps his mouth shut for once and loses the stupid evil smirk when it doesn't work!

I wish all the new plot additions had been written like chapter 9: you don’t fully understand what is going on or why, but you understand enough to know what the stakes are, the stakes themselves are not astronomically high and abstract to the point they lose any real meaning, there is proper build-up, and you get a satisfying emotional payoff for the characters while setting up more for the future. Everything (plot, lore, character writing) comes together to create a powerful, engaging moment. Which is probably why I want more of this and less of… whatever that was at the end.

 

[CldS7]

I definitely got the impression that Sephiroth planned Gongaga very carefully, luring Cloud in a place where he’d be more vulnerable and then immediately acting when he had the chance. The whole sequence was the only Sephiroth scene since the OG I genuinely liked: manipulative but for a specific goal that is clearly communicated, deadly and actually dangerous, with apparent limitations that force him to think out of the box, straight to the point. He even keeps his mouth shut for once and loses the stupid evil smirk when it doesn't work!

my thing is does future Seph know what Tifa saw in the lifestream about Cloud going with her up Nibelheim mountain. Because if he doesnt I am assuming the fact the planet showed her that means it is critical to whatever the undoing that Seph will keep gaslighting Tifa and Cloud about for the first 1/3 of the next game

 

[LunarTarotGirl]

@LunarTarotGirl personally I know there are bad apples on both sides who attack the other side, but that’s not what I’m talking about here, I’m talking about fans who harass Nojima as well as content creators for the lightest stuff. I think it shows how badly this has gone - way too far! People should touch some grass and if they’re that unhappy about the canon maybe it’s time to reevaluate this game and if it’s good for you to be that involved.

And I mean that as someone who frequently tell an IRL friend to stop engaging in fights in Twitter because it really affects him (not fandom related).

I'm not talking about bad apples either. Or fandom history. I'm talking about the problem with the current situation. There is of course no excuse to harrass the creators. Or anyone. 100% those people are terrible and need to roll in a field of grass.

Also to be clear @Eerie I wasn't necessarily responding to your statement on harassments besides agreeing that saying "both sides" actually deflects from the issue it deflects from accountability. Which is why I didn't quote you because you didn't say anything I really disagree with and didn't want you to think I did.

I was just summarizing my thoughts on the entire week. And your post and the harrasment in general did spark my thinking on how willfully blind it has made some people. But also in response to everything I am thinking too about how the lack of accountability is as I said made worse because besides terrible people not caring is a huge issue. But also each side also doesn't fully see what the other side is going through making it really easy for people to get away with stuff. Social media adds to that problem. But basically the back and forth of "both sides are bad" conversely "this side is worse" completely deflects from the problem in the moment. And harrasers sadly get away with a lot in the background when there is deflection.

But I brought it up because it I think applies to the current situation. Nojima getting harrased lead to "well this side was worse!" Or well "both sides are bad". And never really adressed that issue that "ok but he is still getting insults and his mentions are full, let's not". People still need to not do that no matter what. And that's what sadly happens every time the devs open their mouths to say anything. And how ironically we still need both sides to agree on something or this will never end. Which is what has reinforced my thinking that it's not really on the devs anymore.

But I think people have this idea that it's the devs that need to end this (and thus get frustrated, why did you do that? Now the other side will be worse etc) And poor Nojima got the brunt of it. when honestly I think they've done enough. And this whole situation showed that to me. That unfortunately every word they say does the opposite they're seen as either supporters or traitors to the cause.
I think they've been more than accommodating. Now it's up to the fandom itself to come to some consensus. Some dialogue not just on LTD but the harrasment as well.

But if we're only looking at our own we will never have that dialogue. It's not a "both sides are bad thing" I'm not saying that because that handwaves away the issue. It's that the situation has become an echochamber where accountability is almost non existent and both sides think the same exact thing "that side is The Worst" whether true or not I think the problem remains that it is both sides that need to engage properly to end this. But it continues because we don't or many believe we can't have that dialogue.

 

[Yoru]

I'm not talking about bad apples either. Or fandom history. I'm talking about the problem with the current situation. There is of course no excuse to harrass the creators. Or anyone. But people have this idea that it's the devs that need to end this when honestly I think they've done enough. And unfortunately every word they way does the opposite they're seen as either supporters or traitors to the cause.
I think they've been more than accommodating. Now it's up to the fandom itself to come to some consensus. Some dialogue not just on LTD but the harrasment as well.

But if we're only looking at our own we will never have that dialogue. It's not a "both sides are bad thing" I'm not saying that because that handwaves away the issue. It's that the situation has become an echochamber where accountability is non existent and both sides think the same exact thing "that side is The Worst" whether true or not I think the problem remains that it is both sides that need to engage properly to end this. But it continues because we don't or many believe we can't have that dialogue.

I understand what you say and yes, it's not the job of the creators to make things right. Like you said, they've done enough already on their part.

But it's where the things get tough. Yes they have done enough. Did it change anything ? No. And it won't. Sadly I'm afraid there's no in-between for this people (the extreme CA/CT) they don't want debate or exchange of ideas. They just want their vision to bear fruit. They want to win. That's why they're "extremists" in the first place. They live in a world of no contradictions. Their pair is canon. The end. Concede the minimum of importance for the rival pair, is to soil their own. It can't happen. Cloud love for A/T is unconditional, exclusive, without any doubt. Because if not, it's not true love for them.

So yeah, i'm sorry to be pessimistic, but i really can't see it happening. "Our" only hope is part 3 is pretty straighforward and one side of the fandom feel betrayed, stop caring/get back to OG.

If the third game is clear in its intentions, the general public will have its answer. And as a result, shippers will appear as a de facto a minority, and will gradually disappear or remain in small circles. Kinda what a headcanon has always been.

 

[LunarTarotGirl]

I think before this even happens, we actually need a solid premise within which we pursue the answer, but, as you probably know, there are too many instances where we have people that just generally refuse to concede anything. Enough people here have been around long enough to know the type of argumentation this is pointing to, however, I don't believe this is a "both sides" kind of issue either. I think we just have to take one look at that old archived LTD thread to see just how weird it got.

To be clear, I have no issues with anyone shipping whatever, but as it is a debate on canonicity it is important to actually make a distinction here: those that debate the canonicity of CA often employ tactics that seek to disprove CT rather than prove the validity of their own narrative. In the past 5 years alone, I've seen the goalposts move in a way that goalposts shouldn't, where entire arguments are hinged on antiquated, already proven false premises and narratives such as "Tifa the Liar," "Tifa the Bully," "Tifa the Unreliable Narrator," "Zack the Unimportant Fuckboy," "Mutual Feelings of Friendship Only," "Low Affection for Thee but not for Me," "Optional for Thee but not for Me," "They Sleep in Separate Rooms," "They Raise Children Together as Friends," "They are Financially Co-Dependent as Friends," relying on release chronology instead of narrative chronology to make an assessment like "Zerith Copied Clerith so its Fake," and the list continues even outside of the microcosm of the FFVII universe and into the likes of, say, Kingdom Hearts which is an entire can of worms in and of itself. On a point of canonicity, CT's also generally accept that the "Last Order: Final Fantasy VII" is clearly not canon in a way that I do not generally see CA's acknowledge "Maiden Who Travels the Planet" also being outside of canon, both being examples of materials that are not officially part of the continuity but are seen as assets to each respectively.

I remember that there was even a time when the basic idea of "Cloud probably had feelings for Aerith" was largely accepted even by CT's, mostly because, at least by my assessment, they couldn't conceive of anything that could undo what the Lifestream Sequence and the Highwind Scene had given the relationship of Cloud and Tifa. If I remember correctly, this still devolved into a discussion that tried to make romance a zero sum game, where Cloud possibly loving Aerith first meant that Cloud must therefore love Tifa less because he is "settling for what's left over," while also completely insulting the kind of relationship that widowers and widows have with their new spouses. This further spouted new and bizarre claims which include, but are not limited to, "Cloud was just using Tifa" and "Cloud was thinking of Aerith when he slept with Tifa."

Now, none of the above is to say that CT's have never made a disingenuous argument - I've seen enough floating around to know that that's not true. All this is to say is that I don't believe that the CA's embroiled in the LTD are willing or able to concede any point at all about Cloud's feelings about Tifa and their eventual romantic confirmation for the simple fact that for a debate to end, someone must lose.

And I think it's clear who will.

I want to make it clear I'm not at all saying "both sides are bad" because that handwaves the issue. It's a deflection that results in no one taking accountability. And I know the history because I'm not a new fan myself. But I'm in the unique situation of not having gotten involved and observing for more than a decade. Of having mutuals on both sides and seeing how they think. Seeing their experiences.

And I know for a fact that both sides are convinced "That side worse!" I explained why that's also an issue and it never addresses the current issue with the LTD the fact that even if either side were the devil we still need both sides to end a debate. We still need a consensus. Someone must lose but they also need to admit it. To talk. To have a consensus. I explained why I observe we don't have one. And why things have from my observation gotten worse and sadly gotten ridicously too far.

I know the history but in the current situation a lot of the people you see arguing are brand new to the fandom now. They are not part of the history, many didn't even know of it but were dragged in anyway I'm talking both CTs and CAs. It's natural when new people join the fandom to repeat whatever was said previously sadly and I know that has included Tifa hate. Stuff I very explicitly argued against myself. But there were also a lot of newer CA fans that weren't having it. Many that spoke out about the misogyny against Tifa. Many who really think Tifa is a great character and voiced it, many who spoke out against the extremists even. Some even speaking out against harrasment to the devs right now. There is a lot that happened that as I said many aren't aware of for the exact same reason I said.

They too are part of the current situation. A bigger part than we actually see because as I've said before it's the extremists of both sides that get a giant spotlight on them and many use that to color the fandom. And while it's true that there are bad apples anywhere I think focusing on the bad apples so much has effectively lead to ignoring everything else. And has made it so no one wants to talk. Neither side wants to talk. I don't blame them.

We only ever see what is going on in OUR radius our circle and that makes sense honestly. But it's been 27 years so these these echo chambers are now fortified with titanium steel where no one is actually engaging. We can't end a debate if we're responding through screenshots.

And you'd be surprised the number of CA's that are willing to accept Tifa, as a love interest some even as endgame. They just either believe Cloud loved Aerith too or they don't like the way the fandom talks about Aerith so they're not going to really interact with anyone. And no matter how people feel. It makes sense they wouldn't interact they believe they'll be shut down immediately or they think worse they will get bullied. And tell me with a straight face are they really wrong? Because when it comes to the extremists they shut down everyone including their own.

But also these people are in their own little bubble as well and can't see that's not everyone either. There is the narrative that is also not true spread in their circles is that CTs hate Aerith by default. A narrative I have found to be untrue as well. But as long as it continues and other narrative continues no one really wants to engage with anything but screenshots as I said.

Right now though there are a lot of different opinions amongst CAs and CTs too. It's varied, lots of nuance in different ideas that we don't see because our attention is on the same dozen people. Thus the same dozen takes.

And I don't think it personally matters what the devs say or the story says if neither side leaves their echo chamber. And we need both sides to do that.

I'm not blaming anyone that is just the current situation.

We need to have a dialogue but we don't so the devs saying anything just adds fuel to the fire. Meanwhile harrassers do whatever they want in the background of that fire. Thankfully now they are being called out. I hope that it continues. But the uncomfortable truth is that one side can't end it alone. And as we have seen this week alone neither can the devs and I don't think the responsibility is on them after this. They've done their piece.

But we still need a consensus we don't have.

So how would we get it? I wish I knew. I just know the situation has really changed over time. History we may or may not not be part of does play a role but it doesn't completely apply to everyone now especially when Rebirth brought so many new fans. And many are patiently for the devs to end it when sadly it's come to the point they just fuel it. The situation is just that bad. And waiting for the other side to concede means waiting another 27 years.

 

[Yoru]

I want to make it clear I'm not at all saying "both sides are bad" because that handwaves the issue. It's a deflection that results in no one taking accountability. And I know the history because I'm not a new fan myself. But I'm in the unique situation of not having gotten involved and observing for more than a decade. Of having mutuals on both sides and seeing how they think. Seeing their experiences.

And I know for a fact that both sides are convinced "That side worse!" I explained why that's also an issue and it never addresses the current issue with the LTD the fact that even if either side were the devil we still need both sides to end a debate. We still need a consensus. Then I explained why we don't have one. And why things have from my observation gotten worse and sadly gotten ridicously too far.

I know the history but in the current situation a lot of the people you see arguing are brand new to the fandom now. They are not part of the history, many didn't even know of it but were dragged in anyway I'm talking both CTs and CAs. It's natural when new people join the fandom to repeat whatever was said previously sadly and I know that has included Tifa hate. Stuff I very explicitly argued against myself. But there were also a lot of newer CA fans that weren't having it. Many that spoke out about how Tifa was a great character, many who spoke out against the extremists even. Some even speaking out against harrasment to the devs right now. There is a lot that happened that as I said many aren't aware of for the exact same reason I said.

They too are part of the current situation. A bigger part than we actually see because as I've said before it's the extremists of both sides that get a giant spotlight on them and many use that to color the fandom. And while it's true that there are bad apples anywhere I think focusing on the bad apples so much has effectively lead to ignoring everything else. And has made it so no one wants to talk. Neither side wants to talk. I don't blame them.

We only ever see what is going on in OUR radius our circle and that makes sense honestly. But it's been 27 years so these these echo chambers are now fortified with titanium steel where no one is actually engaging. We can't end a debate if we're responding through screenshots.

And you'd be surprised the number of CA's that are willing to accept Tifa, as a love interest some even as endgame. They just either believe Cloud loved Aerith too or they don't like the way the fandom talks about Aerith so they're not going to really interact with anyone. And no matter how people feel. It makes sense they wouldn't interact they believe they'll be shut down immediately or they think worse they will get bullied. And tell me with a straight face are they really wrong? Because when it comes to the extremists they shut down everyone including their own.

But also these people are in their own little bubble as well and can't see that's not everyone either. There is the narrative that is also not true spread in their circles is that CTs hate Aerith by default. A narrative I have found to be untrue as well. But as long as it continues and other narrative continues no one really wants to engage with anything but screenshots as I said.

Right now though there are a lot of different opinions amongst CAs and CTs too. It's varied, lots of nuance in different ideas that we don't see because our attention is on the same dozen people. Thus the same dozen takes.

And I don't think it personally matters what the devs say or the story says if neither side leaves their echo chamber. And we need both sides to do that.

I'm not blaming anyone that is just the current situation.

We need to have a dialogue but we don't so the devs saying anything just adds fuel to the fire. Meanwhile harrassers do whatever they want in the background. Thankfully now they are being called out. I hope that it continues. But the uncomfortable truth is that one side can't end it alone. And as we have seen this week alone neither can the devs and I don't think the responsibility is on them after this. They've done their piece.

But we still need a consensus we don't have.

So how would we get it? I wish I knew. I just know the situation has really changed over time. History we may or may not not be part of does play a role but it doesn't completely apply to everyone now especially when Rebirth brought so many new fans. And many are patiently for the devs to end it when sadly it's come to the point they just fuel it. The situation is just that bad. And waiting for the other side to concede means waiting another 27 years.

Is it FF7 fault tho?

I think we live in a real fucked up world where people don't even try to seek truth anymore. They just go with the narrative that suits them. That's what we saw with the explosion of social networks and the general state of Twitter right know. Echo chambers on Echo chambers just fueling the fire. Human race is in a weird spot at the moment.

Access to information has never been so easy and free, and yet people don't even bother to look for it. They're content to live in their own bubble, and it doesn't take long to get into conspiracies and the like.

FF7 fandom is just a mirror of our society. People are struggling everyday, they build their inner perception of the world, something that helps them going forward, and just go with it.

 

[LunarTarotGirl]

Is it FF7 fault tho?

I think we live in a real fucked up world where people don't even try to seek truth anymore. They just go with the narrative that suits them. That's what we saw with the explostion of social networks and the general state of Twitter right know. Echo chambers on Echo chambers just fueling the fire. Human race is in a weird spot at the moment.

Access to information has never been so easy and free, and yet people don't even bother to look for it. They're content to live in their own bubble, and it doesn't take long to get into conspiracies and the like.

FF7 fandom is just a mirror of our society. People are struggling everyday, they build their inner perception of the world, something that helps them going forward, and just go with it.

I really don't think it's anyone's "fault" if that makes sense. I agree though that yes the worst of fandom is a reflection of the worst of society currently (not just FF7 because I'm in other fandoms and I have seen it's even worse in those fandoms to the point FF7 fandom bothers me the least. If you can believe that. It's just scary out there)

And yes fandom has really become a mirror of society which isn't faring much better.

But rather than assigning blame I think I'm more in the camp of "This is how things are. So maybe we need to change our perspective." Extremists are stuck in their ways forever but I think a lot outside them has actually changed. For example people that used to hate Tifa are now fewer in the fandom lots of stuff has been debunked. People who didn't understand Aerith understand her a lot more now. Now we have people appreciating the friendship between them instead of seeing them as rivals. Lots of perspectives have shifted. The way Cloud is viewed has also shifted from emo guy, blank slate to beloved character. The views on Zack have shifted.

I think that it's hard to see however because as I said. The spotlight is on the extremists the ones that won't budge. So I don't think we need to look at them, we don't need to convince them.
Maybe we need to just shift our focus away from them and we will see no matter how bad it looks and even if I don't think the devs can or should be the ones to end things I do think a lot has changed. Some for worse and some for better too.

I just think we need to agree on this change in perspective. Stop casting that spotlight on the same dozen that will not move an inch. LTD doesnt end when extremists change their mind, they won't. It's when the general public comes to a consensus. Once we stop looking at those that are impossible to convince we can see how things have definitely changed and go from there.

If I make any sense.

 

[Yoru]

I really don't think it's anyone's "fault" if that makes sense. I agree though that yes the worst of fandom is a reflection of the worst of society currently (not just FF7 because I'm in other fandoms and I have seen it's even worse in those fandoms to the point FF7 fandom bothers me the least. If you can believe that. It's just scary out there)

And yes fandom has really become a mirror of society which isn't faring much better.

But rather than assigning blame I think I'm more in the camp of "This is how things are. So maybe we need to change our perspective." Extremists are stuck in their ways forever but I think a lot outside them has actually changed. For example people that used to hate Tifa are now fewer in the fandom lots of stuff has been debunked. People who didn't understand Aerith understand her a lot more now. Now we have people appreciating the friendship between them instead of seeing them as rivals. Lots of perspectives have shifted. The way Cloud is viewed has also shifted from emo guy, blank slate to beloved character. The views on Zack have shifted.

I think that it's hard to see however because as I said. The spotlight is on the extremists the ones that won't budge. So I don't think we need to look at them, we don't need to convince them.
Maybe we need to just shift our focus away from them and we will see no matter how bad it looks and even if I don't think the devs can or should be the ones to end things I do think a lot has changed. Some for worse and some for better too.

I just think we need to agree on this change in perspective. Stop casting that spotlight on the same dozen that will not move an inch. LTD doesnt end when extremists change their mind, they won't. It's when the general public comes to a consensus. Once we stop looking at those that are impossible to convince we can see how things have definitely changed and go from there.

If I make any sense.

Yes I totally understand what you're trying to say and impulse.

But the saddest of things is : Our main medium to interact with each other are those damned social networks. And they aren't made to have constructive thoughts. Let's be honest, we're very few here. The easiest way to find people are things like twitter or youtube. And they're just not "discussion friendly" I would say. There are people right there that are trying. They really do. To be opened to other horizons and such. But they're immediately smacked in the face by the trolls, the antis yadi yada to a point you can't even try anymore. You find people with kinda the same ideas of yours, and that's that. Or you just say nothing.

Again i'm a super pessimistic person so i'm not here spiting facts and truth. That's just how I see things.

 

[LunarTarotGirl]

Yes I totally understand what you're trying to say and impulse.

But the saddest of things is : Our main medium to interact with each other are those damned social networks. And they aren't made to have constructive thoughts. Let's be honest, we're very few here. The easiest way to find people are things like twitter or youtube. And they're just not "discussion friendly" I would say. There are people right there that are trying. They really do. To be opened to other horizons and such. But they're immediately smacked in the face by the trolls, the antis yadi yada to a point you can't even try anymore. You find people with kinda the same ideas of yours, and that's that. Or you just say nothing.

Again i'm a super pessimistic person so i'm not here spiting facts and truth. That's just how I see things.

Oh I completely understand where you're coming from. I'm not even sure if I'm an optimist myself. I'm extremely analytical. To the point I don't think much of what I say usually reflects my true feelings but more my thoughts on things that I observe. I do have moments where I too get pessimistic and think "well this will never end", that everyone I talk to will just be stuck in their own ways so what is even the point? But then my analytical brain kicks in to say "but what if you're just looking at this from too much bias? What if you shift your view? What if you consider other variables adjust and see the result?" It's probably both one my greatest weaknesses and strengths.

It's probably also why my view on LTD doesn't actually align that perfectly with any one "side". Even when I'm not even neutral.

It's a weird position to be in for sure... But I like to think it gives me some perspective and maybe even hope.

 

[Yoru]

Oh I completely understand where you're coming from. I'm not even sure if I'm an optimist myself. I'm extremely analytical. To the point I don't think much of what I say usually reflects my true feelings but more my thoughts on things that I observe. I do have moments where I too get pessimistic and think "well this will never end", that everyone I talk to will just be stuck in their own ways so what is even the point? But then my analytical brain kicks in to say "but what if you're just looking at this from too much bias? What if you shift your view? What if you consider other variables adjust and see the result?" It's probably both one my greatest weaknesses and strengths.

It's probably also why my view on LTD doesn't actually align with anyone one "side".

But we can always try to do things right, right here and right now. So let's play a game and try to change perspective !

My background is this : I'm a Tifa stan at core.

Unlike many people, never liked Aerith in OG. Pissed me of so much. And it's with the Compilation things that my view changed. From what I saw, Aertih fans kinda hate her Compilation persona. And if I'm being honest, I think Zack re-introduction in her life played a role. As a Tifa stan, it's free real estate lmao. All of a sudden, the rival girl don't have to cling to blondie boy anymore ! So yeah I can understand why poeple who were attached to her in OG don't like the Compilation stuff. It's kinda like a retcon. I would be angry if all of a sudden they would release a game where Tifa get a new love interest. It's pretty unfair in a sense.

As for Tifa : Of course she's not perfect. When Cloud fell to the Church she's strangely not that preoccupied. Never tried too hard to search for him. And her plan to go and ask questions to Don Corneo ? Dumb at best. WTF girl, what did you expect ? And yeah, one of the major complains are kinda true. She's too passive. I understand she wants to protect Cloud, but when things go south and he's really losing it, you have to talk and tell the others. You're putting them in danger.

 

[GamerSkull]

To be fair, Zack was always Aerith’s love interest. Nothing in the OG game goes against that. He just came to greater importance because of the Compilation.

And I actually think it’s less to do with Zack, and more to do with the fact that Zerith became popular. So now it’s a threat.

Not to mention, Zack has quite a lot of fans so that doesn’t help now.

But yes, I do think it has to with giving Zack “the first moments” with Aerith now. You cannot divorce him from Aerith’s arc and personality anymore now that it’s canon that selling flowers came from him, and her offering a date came from him, etc.

It’s the same reason some Clerith fans will denigrate Tifa. They are obstacles that get in the way of the ship.

 

[Yoru]

To be fair, Zack was always Aerith’s love interest. Nothing in the OG game goes against that. He just came to greater importance because of the Compilation.

It doesn't go against, but let's be honest, she made her peace with his death way more quickly in OG. He didn't seem THAT important for her before all the Compilation stuff.

 

[Stiggie]

It doesn't go against, but let's be honest, she made her peace with his death way more quickly in OG. He didn't seem THAT important for her before all the Compilation stuff.

Not really, people think more stuff happened in the OG than actually happens.
In OG Aerith seemingly came to terms about Zacks death during the Gold Saucer date, same as Rebirth.

 

[Yoru]

Not really, people think more stuff happened in the OG than actually happens.
In OG Aerith seemingly came to terms about Zacks death during the Gold Saucer date, same as Rebirth.

I need to play it again then because from my memory in Gongaga she's way colder to Zack than what we see with Remake/Rebirth.

 

[GamerSkull]

It doesn't go against, but let's be honest, she made her peace with his death way more quickly in OG. He didn't seem THAT important for her before all the Compilation stuff.

That’s fair enough. But there’s nothing contradictory at least.

 

[GamerSkull]

I need to play it again then because from my memory in Gongaga she's way colder to Zack than what we see with Remake/Rebirth.

She’s says she doesn’t mind that she hasn’t heard from him but feels for his parents.

She also says she thought he must have just run off with another girl. Which could be recontextualized as denial after the Compilation.

I agree that it seems less serious and Zack is played up more as a ladies man in the OG, but nothing CC introduces is what I consider to be a retcon, more just… expansion.

This issue though that I feel some have is that this again, makes Clerith less special as a result. Which is, I think, more of a shipping problem than a story problem if that makes sense.

 

[LunarTarotGirl]

But we can always try to do things right, right here and right now. So let's play a game and try to change perspective !

My background is this : I'm a Tifa stan at core.

Unlike many people, never liked Aerith in OG. Pissed me of so much. And it's with the Compilation things that my view changed. From what I saw, Aertih fans kinda hate her Compilation persona. And if I'm being honest, I think Zack re-introduction in her life played a role. As a Tifa stan, it's free real estate lmao. All of a sudden, the rival girl don't have to cling to blondie boy anymore ! So yeah I can understand why poeple who were attached to her in OG don't like the Compilation stuff. It's kinda like a retcon. I would be angry if all of a sudden they would release a game where Tifa get a new love interest. It's pretty unfair in a sense.

As for Tifa : Of course she's not perfect. When Cloud fell to the Church she's strangely not that preoccupied. Never tried too hard to search for him. And her plan to go and ask questions to Don Corneo ? Dumb at best. WTF girl, what did you expect ? And yeah, one of the major complains are kinda true. She's too passive. I understand she wants to protect Cloud, but when things go south and he's really losing it, you have to talk and tell the others. You're putting them in danger.

Yeah me at first I didn't particularly like either Aerith or Tifa if you can believe it. I was one of those that got mad at Tifa for not telling Cloud the truth. I literally said to the screen in Mideel "You're sad huh but this all your fault" To be fair I was 16 and my views on life were very limited so I don't think I can take 16 year old me's assessment seriously in any way. However in general yes it was the passiveness I didn't like at all, and 16 year old me reacted unfairly and dramatically as teens do.
I understand her a lot better now that she was in a situation where saying anything could have made things worse so it was the best course of action. But I liked in AC when she said stop running. I like in Rebirth to see her younger self more confident and secure. I appreciate her strength so much now and how she preseveres even with the immense weight on her.

My view on Aerith has also changed. I actually liked OG Aerith years after playing. But at first I didn't like her either. Because I felt she was just too stuck on the past and that contradicted her forwardness. "Like girl why do you keep bringing up this guy who left you and telling this new guy about it this? move on. Forget that loser" and I saw her as weak over a man and hung up and boy crazy and not focusing on her real problems. I saw her going to stop Sephiroth as her being an idiot. Once again 16 year old me wasn't thinking too deeply just reacting. Her assessment is not to be trusted.

Anyway I thought both girls needed to get it together.

But the compilation made me really appreciate Aerith a lot. Especially Crisis Core. And I appreciated seeing how she had other sides the more introspective side, along with her confident and sassy side as we know her. Seeing how she chooses to love life despite everything that happened to her. That's still there. And I have maybe a hot take but in my opinion from OG Aerith didn't actually change that much. Not in the compilation not in Crisis Core not even in Remake nor Rebirth. Everything we see is Aerith as she is just different sides to her.
Someone pointed out Aerith in Remake is similar to how she was in the end of OG and I agree. I never saw her as different just she is showing different sides as her arc progresses. All sides that are still there and in the compilation and now.

And yes while Zack was there OG gives the impression he wasn't that important an aspect of her past. I truly believed he didn't care much about her in the scheme of things. Then Crisis Core comes and it's like oh here look how much she loved him! And I was not happy. Until I finished the game then I absolutely loved him.

I guess if we go by definitions I fit Aerith stan. She is now one of my favorite characters. I'm also a Sephiroth stan and I just don't really dislike anyone else now that I'm no longer in my hater phase or whatever I was back then lol I pretty much enjoy every character.