SPOILERS LTD Remake — It's like New Coke except ... no, it's exactly like New Coke

[LunarTarotGirl]

The problem with this is that the OG game does not support this. Even if you completely ignore the Compilation, the OG does not support this.

However, I can see why it was a common interpretation back then.

I'm telling you how it was back then. You say that now because you're talking in retospect. The OG didn't really go against it in the way that you think. And stuff like Tactics and Kingdomshearts didn't help. Because it didn't actually paint a case for Zack. Dismantled isn't canon but it's also what was around back then. And Dismantled pushed the idea that Aerith loved Cloud more than Zack and that Cloud had feelings back.Thus people assumed Aerith loved Cloud and that he was her love interest.

It may not be canon that CA is endgame but that's what people literally thought was the case and I'm talking about what the general belief was before CC.

If enough people believe something it really doesn't matter if the something they believe has evidence unfortunately. It was enough to convince the majority of CAs and make CT be seen as the under dog. To be clear I'm talking about how CAs saw it not all of the fandom.

Basically they thought for years they had the advantage and CC was not what they expected.

 

[GamerSkull]

I'm telling you how it was back then. You say that now because you're talking in retospect. The OG didn't really go against it in the way that you think. And stuff like Tactics and Kingdomshesrts didn't help. Because it didn't actually paint a case for Zack. Dismantled isn't canon but it's also what was around back then. And Dismantled pushed the idea that Aerith loved Cloud more than Zack and that Cloud had feelings back.Thus people assumed Aerith loved Cloud and that he was her love interest.

If enough people believe something it really doesn't matter if the something they believe has evidence unfortunately. It was enough to convince the majority and make CT be seen as the under dog.

Maybe, I still think the OG presents a very clear case for what we are actually supposed to think. What I’m saying is that if you ignore everything but the OG, it does not end the way some CAs think it does.

Sure, perhaps they were a majority back then and perhaps argued their side with some amount of confidence and “evidence”, but popular opinion also doesn’t necessarily mean it’s true.

To be fair, I’m not saying you’re being like this. I just don’t particularly get how so many people came away with this interpretation.

Also, I’m not talking about Zack. This has nothing to do with Zack. Just talking about Cloti and Clerith as far as the OG is concerned.

 

[Yoru]

To be honest, a part of my frustration has less to do with Cloti and more to do with the fact that I feel like I’m being gaslit.

I took what the game presented and came away with a conclusion based on that. Then to go online and see people say “No, Aerith is the true love interest” despite everything really makes me feel like I’m sometimes going crazy.

It’s like watching the Lord of the Rings and thinking “Wow. Evil has been vanquished” only to go online and see people going “Sauron totally won in the end”. It would be maddening.

Apart from that, shipping preferences don’t really bother me.

You know, I was thinking about it the other day and it reminds me of something.

You would be surprised by the number of people who never complete games they're buying.

Stats are abyssal.

So we say it as a joke, but I legit think a part of this fandom never actually played the game completely. Kinda the same thing with the younger generation who discovered the game with youtube videos.

And i'm not even talking about people who are just following their feelings. They know the game, it just doesn't click with them.

So yeah, I don't think we're going crazy, it's just that FF7 is loved by so many people, that it's even more personalities to understand.

 

[GamerSkull]

Ultimately, the point I guess is that I really truly hope the devs have explicit confirmation once and for all for either Clerith, Cloti, Zerith or whatever.

Even if the LTD continues past that, at least the majority of it will be over. At least I’ll know whether I’m sane or not.

 

[LunarTarotGirl]

Maybe, I still think the OG presents a very clear case for what we are actually supposed to think. What I’m saying is that if you ignore everything but the OG, it does not end the way some CAs think it does.

Sure, perhaps they were a majority back then and perhaps argued their side with some amount of confidence and “evidence”, but popular opinion also doesn’t necessarily mean it’s true.

To be fair, I’m not saying you’re being like this. I just don’t particularly get how so many people came away with this interpretation.

Also, I’m not talking about Zack. This has nothing to do with Zack. Just talking about Cloti as far as the OG is concerned.

I don't disagree. That just has nothing to do with my point which was why Zack was so rejected and hated when Crisis Core came out. And why it took so long for CA's to even give him the time of day. Because nothing that came before indicated he was going to be so important in Aerith's life. I actually shipped ZA after CC but at first it felt like whiplash. Because other than Last Order Zack was in the background or seen as a womanizer. It's just how things were.

 

[tenabrus]

I'm telling you how it was back then. You say that now because you're talking in retospect. The OG didn't really go against it in the way that you think. And stuff like Tactics and Kingdomshearts didn't help. Because it didn't actually paint a case for Zack. Dismantled isn't canon but it's also what was around back then. And Dismantled pushed the idea that Aerith loved Cloud more than Zack and that Cloud had feelings back.Thus people assumed Aerith loved Cloud and that he was her love interest.

It may not be canon that CA is endgame but that's what people literally thought was the case and I'm talking about what the general belief was before CC.

If enough people believe something it really doesn't matter if the something they believe has evidence unfortunately. It was enough to convince the majority and make CT be seen as the under dog.

As someone who was around the fandom from the mid 2000s in fansites and LJ (and a bit of GameFAQs), I would say the tide started shifting a bit earlier, with Advent Children and Kingdom Hearts 2.

You saw a huge influx of fans who never played the original but were interested in these characters coming in and assuming Tifa was the love interest because... Well what else was she? If they had the opportunity to play the OG (which often they did not, because retro media was harder to come by before wide spread emus/ROMs and Steam), they went in knowing Aerith would die and thus weren't as devastatedly in denial as OG players.

Then Crisis Core came and basically went "and Aerith and Zack end up together in the Lifestream the end".

Now it's more lopsided than ever with Remake/Rebirth.

 

[liuliuliu]

1997 to 2007 was a time when no one really questioned CA.

In which part of the world? Or is it just because the internet was not as popular as of today so people didn’t get a chance to argue about this kind of little thing online…
Cause I definitely remember a group of my friends and I talked about this after we first watched AC…and we all by default thought CT was the couple at the end of the game and got super confused…

 

[Yoru]

As someone who was around the fandom from the mid 2000s in fansites and LJ (and a bit of GameFAQs), I would say the tide started shifting a bit earlier, with Advent Children and Kingdom Hearts 2.

100% true. Kingdom Hearts 2 was insane for Tifa popularity. Never understood why to be honest, but a ton of people became fan of her with this game and discovered FF7 after.

 

[LunarTarotGirl]

You know, I was thinking about it the other day and it reminds me of something.

You would be surprised by the number of people who never complete games they're buying.

Stats are abyssal.

So we say it as a joke, but I legit think a part of this fandom never actually played the game completely. Kinda the same thing with the younger generation who discovered the game with youtube videos.

And i'm not even talking about people who are just following their feelings. They know the game, it just doesn't click with them.

So yeah, I don't think we're going crazy, it's just that FF7 is loved by so many people, that it's even more personalities to understand.

While this is the case for some. Very specific tiny group in this fandom. Many CAs including myself played OG all the way through. I played it 5 times. And many played Remake and Rebirth. All the way through. Some several times. Including my CA mutuals.

You may be talking about a portion of newer fans who came because of Remake. But if it's before Remake the majority definitely played. But Let's Plays weren't really a thing till more recently so people involved in LTD did play the games.

Aerith fans played CC because they saw Aerith. But some not even all ended up not liking it.

 

[Sacky]

To be honest, a part of my frustration has less to do with Cloti and more to do with the fact that I feel like I’m being gaslit.

I took what the game presented and came away with a conclusion based on that. Then to go online and see people say “No, Aerith is the true love interest” despite everything really makes me feel like I’m sometimes going crazy.

It’s like watching the Lord of the Rings and thinking “Wow. Evil has been vanquished” only to go online and see people going “Sauron totally won in the end”. It would be maddening.

Apart from that, shipping preferences don’t really bother me.

It seriously does feel like we are being gaslit you just see people say stuff like romantic scenes were optional and I just think Gongaga the whole chapter did people somehow miss that? Or Nibelhiem return or even Kalm and under Junon. I'm also surprised by Aeriths confession where she doesn't know what kind of like she's talking about? Or am I misinterpreting that and she just made it confusing for some reason. Rebirth doesn't even seem subtle in the direction it's heading so I'm confused when I see non shippers say this stuff. But even the OG lifestream and Highwind optional or not highwind is intimate in both versions. Lifestream reveals Cloud did everything for Tifa. It's not even shipping anymore it's just trying to stop people from denying the actual plot of the game.

 

[Yoru]

In which part of the world? Or is it just because the internet was not as popular as of today so people didn’t get a chance to argue about this kind of little thing online…
Cause I definitely remember a group of my friends and I talked about this after we first watched AC…and we all by default thought CT was the couple at the end of the game and got super confused…

AC vanilla was such a mess... didn't help this LTD case that's for sure.

While this is the case for some. Very specific tiny group in this fandom. Many CAs including myself played OG all the way through. I played it 5 times. And many played Remake and Rebirth. All the way through. Some several times. Including my CA mutuals.

You may be talking about newer fans who came because of Remake. But if it's before Remake the majority definitely played. But Let's Plays weren't really a thing till more recently so people involved in LTD did play the games.

Well... it's not because you know people that's the case for everyone else if you know what I mean. And we could say the same for what I'm saying too. All I'm saying it's a part of the explanation. Of course there are people who played it since forever. But when I see people arguing about Tifa being the party leader in the next game... I can't trust them if they say they played the game lol.

 

[Sacky]

100% true. Kingdom Hearts 2 was insane for Tifa popularity. Never understood why to be honest, but a ton of people became fan of her with this game and discovered FF7 after.

Kingdom hearts seems very popular for boosting ships I've heard KH1 made a lot of people cleriths?. KH2 she represents Clouds light and Sephiroth Clouds darkness so Love and Kindness Vs Hate and Anger I guess that's what made people a fan? Funny enough this is the same symbolism as Gongaga

 

[GamerSkull]

It seriously does feel like we are being gaslit you just see people say stuff like romantic scenes were optional and I just think Gongaga the whole chapter did people somehow miss that? Or Nibelhiem return or even Kalm and under Junon. I'm also surprised by Aeriths confession where she doesn't know what kind of like she's talking about? Or am I misinterpreting that and she just made it confusing for some reason. Rebirth doesn't even seem subtle in the direction it's heading so I'm confused when I see non shippers say this stuff. But even the OG lifestream and Highwind optional or not highwind is intimate in both versions. Lifestream reveals Cloud did everything for Tifa. It's not even shipping anymore it's just trying to stop people from denying the actual plot of the game.

That’s where a bulk of my frustration lies in particular with the OG.

I see these takes and I think to myself that I must have imagined the dialogue in the Lifestream sequence, and the Highwind scene.

But then I play the game again, see these scenes and am like “Ok, there’s no way I’m misinterpreting this.”

I feel like I’m going nuts sometimes.

 

[LunarTarotGirl]

As someone who was around the fandom from the mid 2000s in fansites and LJ (and a bit of GameFAQs), I would say the tide started shifting a bit earlier, with Advent Children and Kingdom Hearts 2.

You saw a huge influx of fans who never played the original but were interested in these characters coming in and assuming Tifa was the love interest because... Well what else was she? If they had the opportunity to play the OG (which often they did not, because retro media was harder to come by before wide spread emus/ROMs and Steam), they went in knowing Aerith would die and thus weren't as devastatedly in denial as OG players.

Then Crisis Core came and basically went "and Aerith and Zack end up together in the Lifestream the end".

Now it's more lopsided than ever with Remake/Rebirth.

I'm talking about the attitude towards Zack here not Tifa. CTs existed back then yes. Of course. But from the perspective of CAs when Crisis Core came out for years they had been convinced Cloud was Aerith's love interest. Nothing before CC had really convinced CA's Zack was her true love interest. Maybe it convinced CTs I don't know. I'm talking about the CA's however the perspective they had during this time.

 

[Yoru]

Kingdom hearts seems very popular for boosting ships I've heard KH1 made a lot of people cleriths?. KH2 she represents Clouds light and Sephiroth Clouds darkness so Love and Kindness Vs Hate and Anger I guess that's what made people a fan? Funny enough this is the same symbolism as Gongaga

I don't really know to be honest. I suppose you're right.

I hate Kingdom Hearts for its depiction of Cloud (love the game otherwise). It really killed his character (imo) and gave us this emo shit for 10+ years. That's not my Cloud and I'm so happy Remake did him justice.

(I'm not mocking emos. I choose the emo life myself. It's just not his character.)

 

[Sacky]

I'm talking about the attitude towards Zack here not Tifa. CTs existed back then yes. Of course. But from the perspective of CAs when Crisis Core came out for years they had been convinced Cloud was Aerith's love interest. Nothing before CC had really convinced CA's Zack was her true love interest. Maybe it convinced CTs I don't know. I'm talking about the CA's however the perspective they had during this time.

Is this why a lot of people try to say CC isn't canon? The lore of the LTD is very interesting

 

[tenabrus]

I'm talking about the attitude towards Zack here not Tifa. CTs existed back then yes. Of course. But from the perspective of CAs when Crisis Core came out for years they had been convinced Cloud was Aerith's love interest. Nothing before CC had really convinced CA's Zack was her true love interest. Maybe it convinced CTs I don't know. I'm talking about the CA's however the perspective they had during this time.

Oh absolutely. Zack as a viable option was CC. Before he barely even factored into CT arguments the way he does now.

 

[LunarTarotGirl]

AC vanilla was such a mess... didn't help this LTD case that's for sure.

Well... it's not because you know people that's the case for everyone else if you know what I mean. And we could say the same for what I'm saying too. All I'm saying it's a part of the explanation. Of course there are people who played it since forever. But when I see people arguing about Tifa being the party leader in the next game... I can't trust them if they say they played the game lol.

Yeah what I think you're referring to is more the newer wave of fans that came in with Remake who originally didn't know what FF7 was. Not a lot of the newer, younger generation interested in Remake would have played OG. However the fandom has many types of fans you have veteran fans and newer fans. My mutuals would count as veterans.

 

[GamerSkull]

To be honest, I ship Zerith separately from Cloti.

If Cloti never existed, I probably would still like Zerith.

I think I see many say that Zerith shippers are just Cloti shippers so Aerith is out of the way but I take offense at that. I genuinely ship both couples, and one isn’t an excuse ship by any means.

 

[Sacky]

That’s where a bulk of my frustration lies in particular with the OG.

I see these takes and I think to myself that I must have imagined the dialogue in the Lifestream sequence, and the Highwind scene.

But then I play the game again, see these scenes and am like “Ok, there’s no way I’m misinterpreting this.”

I feel like I’m going nuts sometimes.

I legit have to just watch the scene on YouTube again to keep myself from second guessing myself. I understand for people who played when younger but people who have played recently the dialogue isn't exactly subtle to misinterpret it. I only played OG before Rebirth so I was so confused when people say it's interpretation for Cloti when OG made it pretty clear and a plot twist in the story. For AC though I understand since frustratingly they gave Cloti everything but confirming them XD like how many other couples in fiction even get their pair living together with adopted children with matching clothes and jewellery. You have to actually read a book "the kids are alright" to get the answer in which even then its just they are my family too in comparison to evan and kyrie a bf and gf. So could they not just say it. I understand why people have the advent it was up to interpretation but even then they live together confirmed mutual feelings and have an adopted child XD.

 

[Yoru]

To be honest, I ship Zerith separately from Cloti.

If Cloti never existed, I probably would still like Zerith.

I think I see many say that Zerith shippers are just Cloti shippers so Aerith is out of the way but I take offense at that. I genuinely ship both couples, and one isn’t an excuse ship by any means.

I agree. When Remake was not a thing (=FF7 was not really a topic anymore) I was thinking about Zerith when we were talking about love and couple in videogames. This ending wrecked me man.

 

[GamerSkull]

I legit have to just watch the scene on YouTube again to keep myself from second guessing myself. I understand for people who played when younger but people who have played recently the dialogue isn't exactly subtle to misinterpret it. I only played OG before Rebirth so I was so confused when people say it's interpretation for Cloti when OG made it pretty clear and a plot twist in the story. For AC though I understand since frustratingly they gave Cloti everything but confirming them XD like how many other couples in fiction even get their pair living together with adopted children with matching clothes and jewellery. You have to actually read a book "the kids are alright" to get the answer in which even then its just they are my family too in comparison to evan and kyrie a bf and gf. So could they not just say it. I understand why people have the advent it was up to interpretation but even then they live together confirmed mutual feelings and have an adopted child XD.

This is why I just want explicit confirmation. Not to “win” or anything. I just want to know I’m not fucking nuts.

 

[LunarTarotGirl]

Is this why a lot of people try to say CC isn't canon? The lore of the LTD is very interesting

Pretty much. It also didn't help that it was on a handheld. It made it extra easy to ignore.

 

[Sacky]

This is why I just want explicit confirmation. Not to “win” or anything. I just want to know I’m not fucking nuts.

Legit just tell me I'm not the crazy one XD

 

[Someonesbunny]

Exactly. Don't get me wrong Zack is amazing but the problem is they tried to sell him as a better love interest for Aerith than Cloud at a time CA's were pretty much set on Cloud as Aerith's soulmate. At a time when they hadn't actually expanded on Zack's feelings for her, when he hadn't been indicated as as important as Cloud in her story. And they did this very late. About ten years after the game released. I love him I do, but I need people to understand how Crisis Core didn't help his case in the slightest when it came to Cleriths accepting him as any viable match for Aerith.

He honestly felt like a consolation prize. "Cloud loves Tifa but here, have this. Also all your precious CA moments are now ZA moments. Enjoy!" Of course CAs were mad. I was mad too at first. Nothing before that made me consider Zack as someone I wanted Aerith to be with. And to say oh she was living similar moments with Cloud, that he had fallen through the church roof first etc felt like the biggest slap in the face.

I am sorry but it was just the worse way to show him as the true love interest. I don't think he deserved the flack but I can absolutely see where it came from.

Rebirth I can argue does a way better job of painting Zack as someone Aerith loves not because Zack in CC wasn't great but because it feels less forced. Less like "Here, you like CA but check out this guy, nice huh?"

If I remember correctly as well, the devs had mentioned much later on that Nojima had ideas about including Zack as a character and deepening his role far too late in the development cycle of the OG so they sort of just... didn't - but the persistence of the view that CA was important in the OG makes sense. Then they decided later on that they would further expand the story and so we have the arrival of AC/ACC and CC so the persistence of these attitudes are really the folly of the storytellers.

1997 to 2007 was a time when no one really questioned CA. In fact it's true that it was CTs back then who were considered to be wrong. It's a case of a ship war where for years one side was so sure they had won already. So it's going to take mountains to admit otherwise.

This is why it's also just really hard to convince CAs who were fans since 1997 that Zack was the true love interest. Before that the idea of Zack was an afterthought as was the idea that CA wasn't the canon not even considered.

You're right, a decade is a while to to go before being given additional evidence and also in the form of supplemental titles in the compilation and one so seminal to be released on the PSP which was not as widely in use as the primary consoles. To your point too, I suppose given this, it does feel like the RE series is meant to remedy the fact that the narrative continuity of FFVII can actually feel very fractured.