SPOILERS LTD Remake — It's like New Coke except ... no, it's exactly like New Coke

[LunarTarotGirl]

Of course they didn't. It's also impossible that anyone started with Disk 2. It's a thought exercise to demonstrate the framing of the love story, and detach the player from their own expectations.

For example, you could play FFXV after Luna dies and understand that she's still the love interest. Because that role in the game is maintained for her, it does not evolve into something else.

Conversely, if you start playing after Aerith's death you would only understand that Aerith is an important friend killed by Sephiroth, who cast a spell that may save the Planet if you play after Aerith dies. You would struggle to associate her with any romance. You would not struggle with Tifa.

This isn't the same as arguing that the removing the player's preconceptions brought forward from Disk 1 improves the story. It's just to try and detach those views to view the story in a neutral light.

To give an example of doing this for changes I think are bad, if you started Game of Thrones from Season 8, you probably wouldn't struggle at all to accept that Dany loses her mind, Jon doesn't do anything important, and Bran becomes king. Doesn't make those choices better, but it does help to accept them for what they are.

I see what you're saying. In the end however the game design made it so before Aerith dies the players that favored her had built up as much attachment as possible and were invested in her. And thus if they believed she had a romance with Cloud by her death literally nothing was going to stop them in Disk 2 or 3. And the Highwind scenes were just really easy to overlook in comparison to what they already had established. Tifa's Lifestream scene just wasn't enough to change their minds basically.

And well while you make a point starting the game favoring Aerith meant that by the time you got to Disk 2 Tifa was not your focus. So anything Tifa did wasn't gonna change CAs mind. The the impression of Disk 1 was that powerful by itself. And that's the perspective many CAs left OG with then went into the compilation with and has colored their view since.

And to back to my original point this was the same problem with CC and Zack being introduced too late. Anything that came after giving people such a strong impression wasn't going to change their minds so easily.

 

[cgnVirtue]

Sephiroth is a fascinating villain because he is one who ultimately fails due to his inability to understand the complexities of the human heart (or I guess you could say he underestimates the power of love, lmao.) He spends almost the entirety of Rebirth trying to drive a wedge between Cloud and Tifa, but ironically, the one time he seems to succeed is the one time he hadn't set out to do so.

He seems to know Cloud quite well in that he understands that Cloud's greatest weakness is his love for Tifa and his desire to protect her. That's why he's first able to control him in Gongaga, when Cloud in his Mako poisoned state rushes up to help her. But what Sephiroth doesn't understand and underestimates is Tifa's love for Cloud. This is a Tifa who doesn't love Cloud because he's a hero or her protector, but for who he truly is.

Tifa sees Cloud on a murderous rampage, she sees him trying to kill her, and instead of becoming terrified, instead of distancing herself from him, she commits to protecting him and stays by his side closer than ever. Even in the Temple of the Ancients, when Cloud is again on a rampage, and lashing out, she is constantly reaching out to him, putting her body on the line even when he pushes her away. Because she knows that this isn't Cloud. This is Cloud acting under Sephiroth's influence. The real Cloud is still there, even as it becomes harder and harder to reach him.

At the Forgotten Capital, I don't think Sephiroth is thinking about Tifa at all. His primary goal is to kill Aerith/stop her from calling Holy. His secondary goal is to fuck with Cloud and taunt him about his weakness/inability to save anyone like he did during his ToTA trial. (Also, Sephiroth is not the most subtle villain in the world, lol. If Tifa was part of his plan here, he would let us know.)

Cloud's delusion that he saved Aerith/that Aerith is still alive is one of his own making, and that's why it affects Tifa so much. The violence she can explain away, that's clearly Sephiroth, but this, this absence of grief, this lack of kindness, this she cannot. He is no longer the boy she grew up with. He is a stranger.

Cloud's mental state at the end of the game may come as a shock to the player, but I don't think that's the case for the rest of the party. Barret and Red have been talking about how weird he's acting as early as Ch. 3 and again in Ch. 11. Cloud being delusional is just par for the course for them. But with Tifa, it's different. She's spent the entire game trying to pull him back from the abyss, but now she can't speak to him. She can hardly even stand to look at him.

This wasn't part of Sephiroth's plan. Cloud did all the work for him himself. Ironically, it's when Sephiroth tries to press the issue again at the Northern Crater that it completely backfires.

But this also totally tracks with Cloud and Tifa's characters. The greatest obstacle between them has never been an external actor like Sephiroth, it's always been Cloud's internal conflict: his weakness/inferiority complex that made him so susceptible to the Jenova cells' influence, that allows him to create his own illusory world, all because he couldn't believe that Tifa could love him for who he truly is. It's only once they resolve this that all the other pieces fall into place.

…Maybe I was giving Sephiroth too much credit (and reaching a little) lmao. It’s super easy to get caught up in the metaphysical stuff, especially at the end, that I often forget that the story being told is actually quite grounded and their motivations are pretty clear.
Here I am thinking Sephiroth is an evil genius playing 4D chess when he’s just an angry man that wants to destroy/reclaim the planet and fuck with Cloud lol.

 

[GamerSkull]

It’s actually pretty easy to raise both affinities in the OG. I’ve done playthroughs where I get the Aerith date and the High Affection Highwind scene without actively trying tbh.

 

[tenabrus]

Oh

I see what you're saying. In the end however the game design made it so before Aerith dies the players that favored her had built up as much attachment as possible and were invested in her. And thus if they believed she had a romance with Cloud by her death literally nothing was going to stop them in Disk 2 or 3. And the Highwind scenes were just really easy to overlook in comparison to what they already had established. Tifa's Lifestream scene just wasn't enough to change their minds basically.

And well while you make a point starting the game favoring Aerith meant that by the time you got to Disk 2 Tifa was not your focus. So anything Tifa did wasn't gonna change CAs mind. The the impression of Disk 1 was that powerful by itself. And that's the perspective many CAs left OG with then went into the compilation with and has colored their view since.

Oh I actually 100% agree with you. I think the way the OG is structured is interesting for replaying and pulling back layers of double meaning, but in terms of framing the romance, it's not surprising at all Aerith fans would not let go of Aerith. I didn't, at the time.

But, by that same token, fans who went into GoT in total denial of all that was going to happen had a point, to be sure, but however righteous their feelings it wasn't going to change what was actually happening, just how much they bought into those changes.

 

[Lex]

I see what you're saying. In the end however the game design made it so before Aerith dies the players that favored her had built up as much attachment as possible and were invested in her. And thus if they believed she had a romance with Cloud by her death literally nothing was going to stop them in Disk 2 or 3. And the Highwind scenes were just really easy to overlook in comparison to what they already had established. Tifa's Lifestream scene just wasn't enough to change their minds basically.

And well while you make a point starting the game favoring Aerith meant that by the time you got to Disk 2 Tifa was not your focus. So anything Tifa did wasn't gonna change CAs mind. The the impression of Disk 1 was that powerful by itself. And that's the perspective many CAs left OG with then went into the compilation with and has colored their view since.

You should see my earlier post in this thread.

As someone who was around in the early days of the fandom (before Advent Children), I don't fully agree with your read of that time because I remember even back then what this kind of shipping discussion was like. It wasn't a clear cut "most people just assumed Aerith was the canon love interest", there were absolutely just as many Cloti shippers as there are today. I will agree that the importance of Zack in that sphere definitely increased with the compilation.

That said, as I said in my previous post, it was easy to walk away with that impression. Here it is if you're interested:

This is one of the reasons I've always respected your views as a Clerith, because unlike some of the insane takes on Twitter you acknowledge canon as a whole.

I would say don't be disheartened tbh. I think there's plenty there for Clerith as a ship in Rebirth and who knows what they'll do in the next game. My position has always been that Aerith and Cloud were supposed to look like the perfect couple until tragedy strikes, to give it more weight and impact. It's designed to be a red herring, but that doesn't mean they don't feel anything for each other. It contributes to Cloud's loss of self after she dies, then Tifa puts him back together and he fully remembers who he is and how he felt/ feels about Tifa (confirming mutual feelings).

I think where we maybe differ in our opinions is in how that plays out in the OG - no matter what you do, Cloud and Tifa confirm their feelings for each other (high affection or low affection - this happens anyway, the only difference is how explicit the scene is) and I think it's naive for anyone to assume that "confirming their feelings for each other" isn't romantic or is somehow a choice, even in the low affection version of the scene.

It's not just the players to blame for that, because as I've said in the past it's perfectly understandable that people would play through VII and overlook the romantic stuff between Cloud and Tifa, especially if all you're thinking about is Cloud and Aerith - will we get her back? Can they be re-united? These are the thoughts that run through some players heads when they play OG for the first time. Players who are hung up on that relationship are actively not going to acknowledge another love interest when all they're thinking about is a happy ending for the couple they liked.

The closest parallel I've seen in media was the ending of The Legend of Korra, where half the fanbase were convinced there was nothing romantic going on because they completely overlooked all the buildup and hints. It took the creators to come out and say it outright immediately after it aired for people to stop arguing that Makorra (idk I don't remember that ship name, it was awful anyway) was the true endgame.

Just take heart you're not one of the Twitter crazies. Someone told me the other day the apparent read on Twitter regarding the new Gongaga scene is that Tifa was trying to take advantage of Cloud in his weakened mental state "which is disgusting" etc. These people are absolutely unhinged.

 

[Lex]

It’s actually pretty easy to raise both affinities in the OG. I’ve done playthroughs where I get the Aerith date and the High Affection Highwind scene without actively trying tbh.

And this is also true - it's very common to get both the Aerith date and the High Affection Highwind scene.

 

[LunarTarotGirl]

You should see my earlier post in this thread.

As someone who was around in the early days of the fandom (before Advent Children), I don't fully agree with your read of that time because I remember even back then what this kind of shipping discussion was like. It wasn't a clear cut "most people just assumed Aerith was the canon love interest", there were absolutely just as many Cloti shippers as there are today. I will agree that the importance of Zack in that sphere definitely increased with the compilation.

That said, as I said in my previous post, it was easy to walk away with that impression. Here it is if you're interested:

I think you might have misunderstood me. This started with me talking about the Clerith response to Crisis Core:

" Exactly. Don't get me wrong Zack is amazing but the problem is they tried to sell him as a better love interest for Aerith than Cloud at a time CA's were pretty much set on Cloud as Aerith's soulmate. At a time when they hadn't actually expanded on Zack's feelings for her, when he hadn't been indicated as as important as Cloud in her story. And they did this very late. About ten years after the game released. I love him I do, but I need people to understand how Crisis Core didn't help his case in the slightest when it came to Cleriths accepting him as any viable match for Aerith."

I'm not saying nor arguing that most people assumed Aerith was the canon love interest or that there was less Clotis. My original post was about how CC was basically not taken well by Aerith fans because from the CLERITH perspective they didn't think to question Cloud as her love interest before that. "They considered it as well it's CT that is wrong not us."
And someone asked me how is that possible. How is it possible to think CA were soulmates or starcrossed lovers. And so I elaborated on how it was possible to get that impression. How in the Clerith perspective at first they thought about it as player choice which didn't get much pushback then the argument shifted and they started arguing for a canon route. I'm saying in general CA's back then didn't think to question Aerith's love interest and that's why Zack wasn't accepted and until after ACC nothing actually helped to dispel the view Cleriths had of Aerith and Cloud.

It's not exactly my read of that time. Just my experience. I am a Clerith who was there at that time too. I just didn't buy in to the ideas back then. I wasn't into the idea of flowersex nor gondola sex nor did I believe in bringing Aerith back from the dead or other weird stuff floating around back then. Hence why I always advocate for ignoring extremist ideas in a fandom. Stuff was wild for sure and it didn't represent me. And for me CC was an interesting story for Aerith and I by that time had come to accept Tifa.

 

[GamerSkull]

And this is also true - it's very common to get both the Aerith date and the High Affection Highwind scene.

I feel like it was intentional. I believe the devs wanted first-timers to see both of these scenes. The former makes the tragedy all the more sadder and then seeing the Tifa scene in Part 2 almost adds a degree of hope that things will be alright.

 

[Sacky]

Well I really don't know how to convey it to you but that is how it was. Then it shifted to "there is no player choice there is a canon" with fights over which was the true canon route. But when OG was a thing if you said this game is player choice you weren't going to find many people disagreeing. Now in 2024 you think it's weird but 1997 and the years up to AC were just a very different time.

to be fair people must have been young when they played it orginally. So its perspective of a younger persons nostalgia which can change things

 

[GamerSkull]

to be fair people must have been young when they played it orginally. So its perspective of a younger persons nostalgia which can change things

I’m not sure about that since people of varying ages probably played it, even if the more common demographic was younger folk.

I definitely do agree that there is some rose-colored perception going on though.

 

[cgnVirtue]

I'm not talking about most people assumed Aerith was the canon love interest or that there was less Clotis. My original post was about how CC was basically not taken well by fans because from the CLERITH perspective they didn't think to question Cloud as her love interest. And someone asked me how is that possible. And so I elaborated how in the Clerith perspective at first they thought about it as player choice then the argument shifted and they started arguing for a canon route. I'm saying in general CA's back then didn't think to question Aerith's love interest and that's why Zack wasn't accepted and until after ACC nothing actually helped to dispel the view Cleriths had of Aerith and Cloud.

I think I see what you’re saying. Let me know if I’m on the right track here.
In OG FFVII, the beginning of the game does nothing to tell you what’s really happening between them. Maybe there is, maybe there isn’t, aside from the developers who knew?
I think it’s natural for a headcanon to form as a part of gameplay. If you use Aerith a lot, (and why wouldn’t you? She seems like a good healer and magic damage dealer), you’re going to form an attachment to her. The game wants that from you. To make her death impact you as the player by investing in her with gear and materia. If she’s an important part of the part, and one of the better units, then it stands to reason that she should be important overall.

It’s really easy to form attachments to characters. That’s why we have “mains” lol. So I guess when you’ve spent so much time with her, and you were emotionally invested in her, and then you watch her die? It makes sense that some people will want to die on that hill.

Am I on the right track here or am I way off?

Edit: phrasing

 

[Sacky]

I'm not talking about most people assumed Aerith was the canon love interest or that there was less Clotis. My original post was about how CC was basically not taken well by fans because from the CLERITH perspective they didn't think to question Cloud as her love interest. They considered it as well it's CT that is wrong not us.
And someone asked me how is that possible. And so I elaborated how in the Clerith perspective at first they thought about it as player choice with didn't get much pushback then the argument shifted and they started arguing for a canon route. I'm saying in general CA's back then didn't think to question Aerith's love interest and that's why Zack wasn't accepted and until after ACC nothing actually helped to dispel the view Cleriths had of Aerith and Cloud.

i can see how crisis core must have been hated since its basically saying well its been awhile but this is actually Aeriths true love after having the perception and silence of devs. So it would be a wtf this isn't the character i liked. I guess thats why Rebirth having Zack is important since they are leaning very heavily into the cloti now

 

[Sacky]

I think I see what you’re saying. Let me know if I’m on the right track here.
In OG FFVII, the beginning of the game does nothing to tell you what’s really happening between them. Maybe there is, maybe there isn’t, aside from the developers who knew?
I think it’s natural for a headcanon to form as a part of gameplay. If you use Aerith a lot, (and why wouldn’t you? She seems like a good healer and magic damage dealer), you’re going to form an attachment to her. The game wants that from you. To make her death impact you as the player by investing in her with gear and materia. If she’s an important part of the part, and one of the better units, then it stands to reason that she should be important overall.

It’s really easy to form attachments to characters. That’s why we have “mains” lol. So I guess when you’ve spent so much time with her, and you were emotionally invested in her, and then you watch her die? It makes sense that some people will want to die on that hill.

Am I on the right track here or am I way off?

Edit: phrasing

i think its also due to cloti being a twist later on since remake and Rebirth shows Cloud and Tifa interact romantically a lot more than OG ever did until lifestream. So if you have formed an opinion on Clerith from the first part of the game you are just gonna sorta ignore it or not understand the meaning behind it. Highwind would have been annoying but i assume since they saw the game as Clerith the end part saying i can meet her there which is more about wanting to meet the ones they lost. They then associate that as Clerith ending. Then without official knowledge from devs for a long time the headcanon remains and then arguments start.

 

[LunarTarotGirl]

I think I see what you’re saying. Let me know if I’m on the right track here.
In OG FFVII, the beginning of the game does nothing to tell you what’s really happening between them. Maybe there is, maybe there isn’t, aside from the developers who knew?
I think it’s natural for a headcanon to form as a part of gameplay. If you use Aerith a lot, (and why wouldn’t you? She seems like a good healer and magic damage dealer), you’re going to form an attachment to her. The game wants that from you. To make her death impact you as the player by investing in her with gear and materia. If she’s an important part of the part, and one of the better units, then it stands to reason that she should be important overall.

It’s really easy to form attachments to characters. That’s why we have “mains” lol. So I guess when you’ve spent so much time with her, and you were emotionally invested in her, and then you watch her die? It makes sense that some people will want to die on that hill.

Am I on the right track here or am I way off?

Edit: phrasing

Close enough. I'm not at all saying people defaulted to favoring Aerith but that for those who did back then it was just really easy to get the impression she and Cloud were romantic. And not much information to stop anyone from doing so. IF they favored Aerith being the key, they weren't exactly gonna change their minds in Disk 2. And it was just so easy to miss certain scenes even if it it was easy to get Tifa's Highwind scene those who really favored Aerith were mostly paying attention to Aerith. And so if you are a CA it wasn't hard to think oh Aerith and Cloud are meant to be together. Which is what I was asked: How is that possible. I'm just explaining how it was possible.

 

[Sacky]

Close enough. I'm not at all saying people defaulted to favoring Aerith but that for those who did back then it was just really easy to get the impression she and Cloud were romantic. And not much information to stop anyone from doing so. IF they favored Aerith being the key, they weren't exactly gonna change their minds in Disk 2. And it was just so easy to miss certain scenes even if it it was easy to get Tifa's Highwind scene those who really favored Aerith were mostly paying attention to Aerith. And so if you are a CA it wasn't hard to think oh Aerith and Cloud are meant to be together. Which is what I was asked: How is that possible. I'm just explaining how it was possible.

so what happened when perception of it all changed was it from ultimanias or advent children complete?

 

[cgnVirtue]

so what happened when perception of it all changed was it from ultimanias or advent children complete?

We know this. We’re seeing it now lol. The unhinged ones are doubling down and having meltdowns online and the sane ones are having meaningful discussions with us over here.

 

[LunarTarotGirl]

so what happened when perception of it all changed was it from ultimanias or advent children complete?

To be perfectly clear I'm talking about CA perspective I observed in my time in the fandom not the fandom as a whole. There was a shift over time. Though I can't really tell you it was very clearly oh it went from this idea to that. As we got more information different ideas were added naturally. I don't think there was any sudden change. And honestly now you still see some CAs bring up player choice so some ideas are still hanging around. But let's say when CC came for example you would find more CAs dismissing it and not wanting to even acknowledge Zack while today you will probably get the response of "Yeah Zack is her love interest in the past" and stuff like CAs who also like ZA some of my mutuals even saw ZA as canon and think CA is also canon etc and I think in general that's just due to all the different material available now.

 

[Sacky]

We know this. We’re seeing it now lol. The unhinged ones are doubling down and having meltdowns online and the sane ones are having meaningful discussions with us over here.

so it took till rebirth for it to change thats a long time. Though advent children complete must have caused a lot of arguments most of the old blogs are either proving cloti in advent or disproving cloti in advent

 

[cgnVirtue]

so it took till rebirth for it to change thats a long time. Though advent children complete must have caused a lot of arguments most of the old blogs are either proving cloti in advent or disproving cloti in advent

Oh I didn’t mean it happened suddenly from Rebirth, my bad. I was trying to say that we’re still seeing it because new stuff keeps getting released lmao. If it’s like this now I can only assume it was the same when ACC, the first ultimanias, and other compilation material released.

 

[GamerSkull]

Must have felt like sweet sweet vindication for some fans.

 

[cgnVirtue]

Close enough. I'm not at all saying people defaulted to favoring Aerith but that for those who did back then it was just really easy to get the impression she and Cloud were romantic. And not much information to stop anyone from doing so. IF they favored Aerith being the key, they weren't exactly gonna change their minds in Disk 2. And it was just so easy to miss certain scenes even if it it was easy to get Tifa's Highwind scene those who really favored Aerith were mostly paying attention to Aerith. And so if you are a CA it wasn't hard to think oh Aerith and Cloud are meant to be together. Which is what I was asked: How is that possible. I'm just explaining how it was possible.

I’ve mentioned this before, but before any Remakes came out I wasn’t that into FFVII at all. I never played the OG. And at the time I thought that Aerith was the “Zelda” to Cloud’s “Link” lol. I only vaguely knew Tifa by name. So I don’t think it’s too far fetched to say by default, a decent amount of people may have been like me. It wasn’t even until I played the Remakes that I realized there was an amazing story underneath and who Tifa really was.
Needless to say that definitely shifted my perspective lol.

 

[Ryeleigh]

Well I really don't know how to convey it to you but that is how it was. Then it shifted to "there is no player choice there is a canon" with fights over which was the true canon route. But when OG was a thing if you said this game is player choice you weren't going to find many people disagreeing. Now in 2024 you think it's weird but 1997 and the years up to AC were just a very different time.

If I think about OG being a first of its kind in 1997 with the dialogue options and variations of specific scenes, then sure, in that way the choices are more meaningful than in Fire Emblem Awakening, lol. But people still keep bringing up "player choices" today as if those choices were anything more than an illusion that dropped as soon as Cloud regained his sense of self and he chose Tifa. Like, the player can play into Cloud being interested in Aerith but the player can't actually romance Aerith, if that makes sense?

And again, this is just so vastly different from my experience because I started playing OG fully thinking that CA was canon, lol. I was also aware that Cloud was alive at the end of the game. So the second Aerith died, I realised that tidbit of information I'd passingly read was a lie and I went to confirm it online, which actually led me to the old LTD threads here, lol. They were a wild read.

 

[LunarTarotGirl]

If I think about OG being a first of its kind in 1997 with the dialogue options and variations of specific scenes, then sure, in that way the choices are more meaningful than in Fire Emblem Awakening, lol. But people still keep bringing up "player choices" today as if those choices were anything more than an illusion that dropped as soon as Cloud regained his sense of self and he chose Tifa. Like, the player can play into Cloud being interested in Aerith but the player can't actually romance Aerith, if that makes sense?

And again, this is just so vastly different from my experience because I started playing OG fully thinking that CA was canon, lol. I was also aware that Cloud was alive at the end of the game. So the second Aerith died, I realised that tidbit of information I'd passingly read was a lie and I went to confirm it online, which actually led me to the old LTD threads here, lol. They were a wild read.

To be honest whenever I see "player choice" I just assume the person is an older fan not a newer one. That could be the wrong assumption but in my experience that has been the case. I can see why they see it that way because usually games with affection systems are player choice. This game subverted that. But on the surface there wasn't too much clear about the fact it was subverting it. You gain points with Aerith, you see her gain interest. It makes it hard to convince people who favor her they're not romancing her or that it doesn't change anything. At least imo OG wasn't great at showing that and that's why we're here talking about it. But when I made my theory that part of CA's portrayal was supposed to be part of the illusion of player choice, designed to make the player feel more like the rug is pulled away and for every twist to hit harder I was basically deemed secret CT so.. I don't think it's something easily accepted even now.

 

[parkdon]

To be honest whenever I see "player choice" I just assume the person is an older fan not a newer one. That could be the wrong assumption but in my experience that has been the case. I can see why they see it that way because usually games with affection systems are player choice. This game subverted that. But on the surface there wasn't too much clear about the fact it was subverting it. You gain points with Aerith, you see her gain interest. It makes it hard to convince people who favor her they're not romancing her or that it doesn't change anything. At least imo OG wasn't great at showing that and that's why we're here talking about it. But when I made my theory that part of CA's portrayal was supposed to be part of the illusion of player choice, designed to make the player feel more like the rug is pulled away and for every twist to hit harder I was basically deemed secret CT so.. I don't think it's something easily accepted even now.

Cloti has been canon since 1997
You are wrong

 

[LunarTarotGirl]

Cloti has been canon since 1997
You are wrong

Sorry but? What exactly are you talking about?

"Whenever I see "player choice" I just assume it's an older fan not a newer one. I may be wrong in that assumption but in my experience that has been the case"
"You gain points with Aerith, you see her gain interest. It makes it hard to convince people who favor her they're not romancing her or that it doesn't change anything."
?????

I didn't talk about canon. Nor CT other than to say people thought I was one.
What exactly are you responding to?