SPOILERS LTD Remake — It's like New Coke except ... no, it's exactly like New Coke

[Hellenic]

Honestly I just think she was already under the assumption that he was alive, maybe a broken bone or two, but not dead, partially because Cloud even says "this aint the end of the line for you, or me".

I guess that's a fair point. Still wish there was some sorta bigger reaction all things considered, but oh well. At least we got Cloud dashing after her as an addition there.

 

[LunarTarotGirl]

That's why they should just pick a lane and stick with it, stop people from having their expectations ruined by just pulling off the bandaid

I think ReTrilogy is doing that but maybe right now it's set up and part 3 will be the payoff. In terms of direction it seems to me they set up CT pretty clearly. We'll wait and see for ZA but so far I do think everything is set up for closure for them too.

 

[Hellenic]

I went back and rewatched the carriage scene and I retroactively was upset like “TIFA HE COULD HAVE DIED????”
But I guess, as I think was mentioned here before, Tifa just has that much faith in him at that point that I don’t think she truly believes that he’d die on her like that. I never finished Intergrade so I didn’t know she had scenes where she was looking for him even a little. But I think at that point too, Cloud has already told her that he’s staying in Midgar to keep his promise to her? Which probably just strengthens her faith in him, especially since he remembers after all those years apart. At this point she believes that he made it into SOLDIER and everything too. Not long before this he just stumbles into Midgar and they find each other again, like it was fate. So I guess I can’t blame her for having that much faith in him lol.

Just to correct a bit, Intergrade is the PS5 version of Remake, while Intermission is the Yuffie DLC itself. Anyhow, i guess i could give her the benefit of the doubt that she just had that much faith in Cloud to not really worry about it a whole lot, but it still does irk me a bit after how she looked while Barret had to carry her away. No biggie overall though.

 

[Hellenic]

I mean, Cloud fell off a mountain and got scraped knees. It's not his physical safety she's worried about.

Yeah this is another good point actually. I guess i just got whiplashed after the Sector 5 fall scene and expected more out of the reunion reaction after i guess.

 

[LunarTarotGirl]

Can't stop thinking about what Nojima said about the song, that Aerith went to write it, it was one thing, but she started to really get into it, ending up putting a lot of things, she got carried away, was overthinking, had to start over, something like that, and it made me think of the scenes before the show, the one where Cloud sees she is busy and decides not to interrupt her afterall, then with Cait Sith, also outside of cut scenes when you as player talk to her but she is busy. I wonder if Nojima was thinking about those scenes, I hope he knows they didn't go unnoticed or unappreciated in the end.

It's really beautiful I think. It fits her character so well too to sit there and overthink. I think Rebirth goes above and beyond with character moments like this.

 

[Stiggie]

This reminds me that I need to check out some of the mods for FFVII. It might make for a varied playthrough since I feel like I know the OG game pretty well at this point.

As for using characters in party, I actually try to rotate frequently so that every characters gets their turn in the sun. And I do use Aerith more on occasion, mostly because I know she won’t be around in the second half of the game.

But yes, I do think there’s not too much of a difference between characters in the OG, you can essentially use anyone for anything, even if some characters might have slightly better stats in a given category.

Is it heresy to say that in my last Remake playthrough I replaced Tifa with 2b? It was oddly fitting.

(also turned Barret into Thanos, Cloud into Zack, and Aerith into a FFIX garnet outfit, but I mostly played with 2b)

 

[shady]

I think ReTrilogy is doing that but maybe right now it's set up and part 3 will be the payoff. In terms of direction it seems to me they set up CT pretty clearly. We'll wait and see for ZA but so far I do think everything is set up for closure for them too.

I think absolutely this is likely how it's going to go. There were far too many hints of ZA stuff sprinkled throughout the game. I don't think you need me to repeat them at all, but just gonna put them down here anyway (with more i'm probably missing)

Hand holding through the Lifestream.
Zack looking up at the sky as reunion petals fly past as we cut to Aerith looking up at the same sky and asking Cloud what direction Midgar is at.
Multiple scenes at the end of seemingly Aerith helping Zack multiple times.
Zack ending up at the Church with blooming flowers saying worlds can reunite again.
Zack bonding with Elmyra and Aerith and Elmyra's house being referred to ingame as "Home" for Zack

These are just a couple scenes, but then even from the first scene of the game we see Zack's devotion to Aerith, and how he stays devoted to her throughout all of his segments, even if he is slightly upset and confused by what Marlene is saying, he doesn't hold anything against Cloud (obviously he doesn't know the full story or anything yet about what Aerith really feels or what Cloud feels etc) and see's the bigger picture is saving Aerith regardless. They can talk later.

Not only this but;

Aerith herself admits in Gongaga she still has feelings for Zack.
Reagrdless of what anybody thinks of what she feels for Cloud, there is no way you can deny she is confused and unsure about the Zack situation and and her feelings for him right up until the end of the game. (S5 date etc)
Cloud remembers his friend Zack this time around and how "head over heels" he was for Aerith
Aerith admits to Cloud that she likes him, but isn't even sure what kind of like that is, whether it's a friendly platonic like or a romantic like (So for anybody to say she's currently head over heels in love with Cloud is wildly over the top)

Now I know in the English VA (Maybe not in the Japanese VA) they contextualise the Church as Cloud and Aerith's place, "our place" although I believe in the Japanese it's just "a place of memories" (I may be wrong on this). Regardless Cloud and Aerith have a whole one memory there, granted it was memorable but it wasn't like it lasted long either. Cloud seems to not even know where Aerith is talking about at first until she almost spells it out for him. However who do we cut too sat right outside the Church already? Zack.

I also don't think it's a coincidence they updated this keyart for Crisis Core Reunion



Left is the original Crisis Core key art, and on the right is the same keyart but updated for Crisis Core Reunion, and it's putting them in the church.

Like at this point it would almost be completely negligent to the story if they didn't reunite in Part 3 considering all they've interwoven within it. If absolutely nothing else the reason why i go with your assumption that CT and ZA will be the endgame is because of everything that has happened in Remake and Rebirth so far it makes the most sense, to have CA be endgame at this point 2 games in would be far FAR too messy a proposition to realistically and properly pull off in Part 3 without pulling out massive threads of story and character development that has already happened. I feel like the time for CA to be considered endgame for P3 was to write the Retrilogy that way from the very beginning, or at least solidify it in Rebirth.

How are you going to explain Cloud remembering his best friend Zack and his feelings for Aerith, and then Cloud making the moves on Aerith not long after that.
How are you going to explain Cloud kissing Tifa and then immediately moving to Aerith and, say, kissing her or romancing her like nothing happened as if he's some playboy
How are you going to explain bringing Zack back and showing his total and utter devotion to Aerith in virtually every scene, only for him to get sent to the sidelines in Part 3, there's no way Aerith as a character would do that.
How do you explain making Tifa go through the absolute wringer for Cloud, physically and emotionally, only to say Cloud was just using her because he was jealous of Aerith and that's why he kissed her (a popular theory for some reason)

They could have easily created a CA love story without ever needing to do any of these things, or the other multitude of things they put in Remake or Rebirth, that would ultimately undermine the characters and the story. There's just so much more they'd need to either throw in the bin or somehow try and explain away like it never happened in Part 3. It would be absolute insanity to do this and I don't think a lot of people are fully coming to grips with this yet.

Everybody is free to ship whoever they want and honestly as long as it makes them happy that is what matters at the end of the day, but I think at this point things are only directing one way and i'd be mind blown if it didn't end up that way.

 

[GamerSkull]

Is it heresy to say that in my last Remake playthrough I replaced Tifa with 2b? It was oddly fitting.

(also turned Barret into Thanos, Cloud into Zack, and Aerith into a FFIX garnet outfit, but I mostly played with 2b)

2B being a monk/brawler. Interesting.

I wonder if I can get a Chun Li mod for Tifa.

 

[Hellenic]

This reminds me that I need to check out some of the mods for FFVII. It might make for a varied playthrough since I feel like I know the OG game pretty well at this point.

As for using characters in party, I actually try to rotate frequently so that every characters gets their turn in the sun. And I do use Aerith more on occasion, mostly because I know she won’t be around in the second half of the game.

But yes, I do think there’s not too much of a difference between characters in the OG, you can essentially use anyone for anything, even if some characters might have slightly better stats in a given category.

I'm at a point where i just don't enjoy the vanilla experience of the older FF games that much, so i reach out to mods to make the experience more interesting now. Definitely recommend New Threat if you ever wanna try something out for FF7.

The lack of variety in the characters did end up making me stick mostly to specific characters in vanilla OG, though said mod does let you actually choose to keep Aerith past her death if you want to, so i kept her as the chosen magic character for the whole playthrough of that. In the Remake trilogy i do a lot more party variety now just couse everyone feels very different.

 

[cgnVirtue]

I actually never really got drawn to using her for that, couse her normal attack was pretty bad and i don't think the game made the characters feel different enough to make me feel like i needed her for magic or healing either really. Other characters could handle that just fine.

That said i did use her in the mod called New Threat where they did make the characters more specialized for roles and she actually fit that caster archetype better than others.

So glad the remake series made the characters feel a lot more different and it wasn't all just based around materia setups for the most part.

… that’s kind of disappointing. Weren’t other JRPGs at the time doing class specializations? I wouldn’t know, I only got into JRPGs over the last 10 years. I really thought there was a good reason to use Aerith when possible since she’s the only person who thematically looks like a magic user.
But I guess since the game is designed like that, you’re free to use any character and team composition with ease and mostly based on personal preference. Which is even crazier, since it seems like OG doesn’t do anything before Aerith’s death to suggest any character attachments one way or the other outside of headcanons, I guess. So the only concrete romantic plot point is the Lifestream (and Highwind?). Making the fact that the LTD has even gotten this heated way more confusing to me.

 

[Shadowfox]

If that was the case back then- I don't remember it but I'll take your word- it certainly doesn't seem to be the case now.

I was a little surprised too when I came across some FF blogs several years back and found some Cloud fans who were annoyed with how much had been attributed to Zack in CC. They did acknowledge that Cloud was copying Zack in the OG, but with the way CC and Zack had been written, they felt like Zack had taken too much away that made Cloud his own person.

 

[Hix]

They could have easily created a CA love story without ever needing to do any of these things, or the other multitude of things they put in Remake or Rebirth, that would ultimately undermine the characters and the story. There's just so much more they'd need to either throw in the bin or somehow try and explain away like it never happened in Part 3. It would be absolute insanity to do this and I don't think a lot of people are fully coming to grips with this yet.

Everybody is free to ship whoever they want and honestly as long as it makes them happy that is what matters at the end of the day, but I think at this point things are only directing one way and i'd be mind blown if it didn't end up that way.

I think one can just summarize the entire thing and suggest that Clerith sinks because Tifa and Zack exist. One will note that fans of CA spend considerably longer, be it on social media or otherwise, attacking or degrading Tifa and Zack's roles in the franchise rather than celebrating Cloud/Aerith's. This is by design.

For Cloti and Zerith, the end game has already been long since established. Cloud meets Aerith, she dies a few weeks later, Tifa heals Cloud's broken mind and they express their mutual feelings to each other, Aerith and Zack are depicted together "always" in the Lifestream, Tifa and Cloud together "always" in the world left behind. Final Fantasy VII is from square one, pardon the pun, calling back to the duality of life and death - the roles of the heroes that should have been, in death, contrasted with the heroes that ultimately were in life. Each character has been created specifically to fit into these roles. So yes, Cloud and Tifa are designed to be together, as are Zack and Aerith too.

That's not to deny the characters their agency. Nobody "owns" anyone. Nobody is kept away from the potential of "moving on" (you will note, those who levy this accusation towards Zeriths themselves deny Cloud his ability to move on once Aerith dies, or Aerith doing so herself thereafter) - it's merely a reflection of the narrative as presented.

What I'm saying here is, it may be a realistic scenario that Cloud spends every moment of his life being madly in love with Tifa, only to suddenly change on a dime for a girl he literally just meets. It may also be realistic to suggest Aerith can move on from Zack just as quickly - and it would be just as quick, given the love letters, the pink dress and her continual enquiring after him right up through Rebirth. It's perfectly logical, until it's not. For you see, this isn't a window into a naturally occurring and thus exceedingly random/arbitrary set of events but a narrative driven video game that is determined to weave a coherent story from start to finish.

If one was to establish Cloud and Aerith as the main couple of the game, it would be detrimental to this to continually show that Cloud loves Tifa and that Aerith loves Zack. Just as Aerith telling Cloud, to his face, that she still loves Zack (mind you, after she managed to instantly find her way to his house in Gongaga...) was a torpedo to the bows of Clerith, so too it's the writer of this story spelling out the direction of the plot firmly and resolutely. One girl getting a kiss and the other not isn't by chance, this was discussed at length by the developers ahead of production and done with full intent of the consequences.

This is where occam's razor comes full into play. As noted previously, we see the franchise starts from a position of "Cloti and Zerith are canon", is shown to end in that same position (Advent Children Complete and beyond) and is now increasingly filled with this very same position in the middle too. Continually beating us over the head with the same messages, as if the subtle "feelings that cannot be expressed through words" tack was not enough for us to understand the story the devs are desperately trying to tell. It's the default. Literally no arguments are required, no attacks, sit back and relax and enjoy the completeness of the franchise without worrying about "optional scenes." I implore everyone here to watch them all! They all make sense, trust me.

For Cleriths this is not so. So much needs to be twisted, head canoned and, most commonly of all, outright ignored. You wouldn't believe how many fans of CA I've encountered who have chosen not to play Crisis Core, or watch Advent Children Complete, or even simply watch all the scenes in the Remake Trilogy without skipping dialogue or covering eyes and ears. The fact of the matter is, Zack and Tifa just won't go away nor will Aerith and Cloud's feelings for them respectively. Thus it necessitates continually attacking them and their characters, dragging down the others along with them.

Anyone with an iota of care for the story that has been built up to involving these wonderful characters should have the humility, that we've seen from many, to admit that - like it or lump it - the games are not going to validate CA. With the best will in the world, it was never meant to be. The sooner we can all stop sniping over it and accept the story for what it is, not what we wish it would be, the better.

 

[Stiggie]

I think one can just summarize the entire thing and suggest that Clerith sinks because Tifa and Zack exist. One will note that fans of CA spend considerably longer, be it on social media or otherwise, attacking or degrading Tifa and Zack's roles in the franchise rather than celebrating Cloud/Aerith's. This is by design.

For Cloti and Zerith, the end game has already been long since established. Cloud meets Aerith, she dies a few weeks later, Tifa heals Cloud's broken mind and they express their mutual feelings to each other, Aerith and Zack are depicted together "always" in the Lifestream, Tifa and Cloud together "always" in the world left behind. Final Fantasy VII is from square one, pardon the pun, calling back to the duality of life and death - the roles of the heroes that should have been, in death, contrasted with the heroes that ultimately were in life. Each character has been created specifically to fit into these roles. So yes, Cloud and Tifa are designed to be together, as are Zack and Aerith too.

That's not to deny the characters their agency. Nobody "owns" anyone. Nobody is kept away from the potential of "moving on" (you will note, those who levy this accusation towards Zeriths themselves deny Cloud his ability to move on once Aerith dies, or Aerith doing so herself thereafter) - it's merely a reflection of the narrative as presented.

What I'm saying here is, it may be a realistic scenario that Cloud spends every moment of his life being madly in love with Tifa, only to suddenly change on a dime for a girl he literally just meets. It may also be realistic to suggest Aerith can move on from Zack just as quickly - and it would be just as quick, given the love letters, the pink dress and her continual enquiring after him right up through Rebirth. It's perfectly logical, until it's not. For you see, this isn't a window into a naturally occurring and thus exceedingly random/arbitrary set of events but a narrative driven video game that is determined to weave a coherent story from start to finish.

If one was to establish Cloud and Aerith as the main couple of the game, it would be detrimental to this to continually show that Cloud loves Tifa and that Aerith loves Zack. Just as Aerith telling Cloud, to his face, that she still loves Zack (mind you, after she managed to instantly find her way to his house in Gongaga...) was a torpedo to the bows of Clerith, so too it's the writer of this story spelling out the direction of the plot firmly and resolutely. One girl getting a kiss and the other not isn't by chance, this was discussed at length by the developers ahead of production and done with full intent of the consequences.

This is where occam's razor comes full into play. As noted previously, we see the franchise starts from a position of "Cloti and Zerith are canon", is shown to end in that same position (Advent Children Complete and beyond) and is now increasingly filled with this very same position in the middle too. Continually beating us over the head with the same messages, as if the subtle "feelings that cannot be expressed through words" tack was not enough for us to understand the story the devs are desperately trying to tell. It's the default. Literally no arguments are required, no attacks, sit back and relax and enjoy the completeness of the franchise without worrying about "optional scenes." I implore everyone here to watch them all! They all make sense, trust me.

For Cleriths this is not so. So much needs to be twisted, head canoned and, most commonly of all, outright ignored. You wouldn't believe how many fans of CA I've encountered who have chosen not to play Crisis Core, or watch Advent Children Complete, or even simply watch all the scenes in the Remake Trilogy without skipping dialogue or covering eyes and ears. The fact of the matter is, Zack and Tifa just won't go away nor will Aerith and Cloud's feelings for them respectively. Thus it necessitates continually attacking them and their characters, dragging down the others along with them.

Anyone with an iota of care for the story that has been built up to involving these wonderful characters should have the humility, that we've seen from many, to admit that - like it or lump it - the games are not going to validate CA. With the best will in the world, it was never meant to be. The sooner we can all stop sniping over it and accept the story for what it is, not what we wish it would be, the better.

This might be the best, most tightly written and lucid, breakdown of this exact point (which I've seen and made a thousand times) that I've seen.

 

[CldS7]

forget Tifa and Zack. My thing is how do they even expect Cloud to become real Cloud again???

They’re essentially shipping him with a Persona. Which doesn’t make any sense to me?

How can Cloud ever be fixed, face his insecurities and beat Sephiroth at the end if Cloud and Tifas are not it.

It’s not even about if other ships work, it’s the fact that the story literally gets completely destroyed if it doesn’t happen tbh

I think one can just summarize the entire thing and suggest that Clerith sinks because Tifa and Zack exist. One will note that fans of CA spend considerably longer, be it on social media or otherwise, attacking or degrading Tifa and Zack's roles in the franchise rather than celebrating Cloud/Aerith's. This is by design.

For Cloti and Zerith, the end game has already been long since established. Cloud meets Aerith, she dies a few weeks later, Tifa heals Cloud's broken mind and they express their mutual feelings to each other, Aerith and Zack are depicted together "always" in the Lifestream, Tifa and Cloud together "always" in the world left behind. Final Fantasy VII is from square one, pardon the pun, calling back to the duality of life and death - the roles of the heroes that should have been, in death, contrasted with the heroes that ultimately were in life. Each character has been created specifically to fit into these roles. So yes, Cloud and Tifa are designed to be together, as are Zack and Aerith too.

That's not to deny the characters their agency. Nobody "owns" anyone. Nobody is kept away from the potential of "moving on" (you will note, those who levy this accusation towards Zeriths themselves deny Cloud his ability to move on once Aerith dies, or Aerith doing so herself thereafter) - it's merely a reflection of the narrative as presented.

What I'm saying here is, it may be a realistic scenario that Cloud spends every moment of his life being madly in love with Tifa, only to suddenly change on a dime for a girl he literally just meets. It may also be realistic to suggest Aerith can move on from Zack just as quickly - and it would be just as quick, given the love letters, the pink dress and her continual enquiring after him right up through Rebirth. It's perfectly logical, until it's not. For you see, this isn't a window into a naturally occurring and thus exceedingly random/arbitrary set of events but a narrative driven video game that is determined to weave a coherent story from start to finish.

If one was to establish Cloud and Aerith as the main couple of the game, it would be detrimental to this to continually show that Cloud loves Tifa and that Aerith loves Zack. Just as Aerith telling Cloud, to his face, that she still loves Zack (mind you, after she managed to instantly find her way to his house in Gongaga...) was a torpedo to the bows of Clerith, so too it's the writer of this story spelling out the direction of the plot firmly and resolutely. One girl getting a kiss and the other not isn't by chance, this was discussed at length by the developers ahead of production and done with full intent of the consequences.

This is where occam's razor comes full into play. As noted previously, we see the franchise starts from a position of "Cloti and Zerith are canon", is shown to end in that same position (Advent Children Complete and beyond) and is now increasingly filled with this very same position in the middle too. Continually beating us over the head with the same messages, as if the subtle "feelings that cannot be expressed through words" tack was not enough for us to understand the story the devs are desperately trying to tell. It's the default. Literally no arguments are required, no attacks, sit back and relax and enjoy the completeness of the franchise without worrying about "optional scenes." I implore everyone here to watch them all! They all make sense, trust me.

For Cleriths this is not so. So much needs to be twisted, head canoned and, most commonly of all, outright ignored. You wouldn't believe how many fans of CA I've encountered who have chosen not to play Crisis Core, or watch Advent Children Complete, or even simply watch all the scenes in the Remake Trilogy without skipping dialogue or covering eyes and ears. The fact of the matter is, Zack and Tifa just won't go away nor will Aerith and Cloud's feelings for them respectively. Thus it necessitates continually attacking them and their characters, dragging down the others along with them.

Anyone with an iota of care for the story that has been built up to involving these wonderful characters should have the humility, that we've seen from many, to admit that - like it or lump it - the games are not going to validate CA. With the best will in the world, it was never meant to be. The sooner we can all stop sniping over it and accept the story for what it is, not what we wish it would be, the better.

 

[Ryeleigh]

I'm sorry if I sound rash lol it's 1am but if you ask me, I'm probably part of the CT extremists because I don't think Cloud sees Aerith romantically, and I don't think that narratively it would work - it creates a messy story for both Cloud and Tifa; you can't give Aerith what's Tifa's, ie you cannot give her a romance with Cloud.

I guess I should be called a CT extremist too then since I didn't get any romantic vibes from Cloud to Aerith. I can see why players would see their scenes and interactions that way but so far I just didn't get anything from Cloud (aside from the red dress scene).

To be very fair it provided a good foundation for their relationship. Intimate moments and established their feelings. I just wanted more of that less of Genesis shenanigans. More interactions. Stuff like that.

I wanted more Zack/Aerith and Zack/Cloud interactions in CC, too. ;___; (I'm greedy, lol.)

They could have easily created a CA love story without ever needing to do any of these things, or the other multitude of things they put in Remake or Rebirth, that would ultimately undermine the characters and the story. There's just so much more they'd need to either throw in the bin or somehow try and explain away like it never happened in Part 3.

You know, it's amazing that there are still people who think the love triangle is even more of a mess and up for grabs after P2, lol. I'm really curious how they see these games but I guess it's just seeing everything through the lens of shipping?

 

[Stiggie]

I guess I should be called a CT extremist too then since I didn't get any romantic vibes from Cloud to Aerith. I can see why players would see their scenes and interactions that way but so far I just didn't get anything from Cloud (aside from the red dress scene).

I can see why someone would see something romantic during a first playthrough, because of the whole "cute pinky magical manic pixie girl" thing. I just can't see why someone would see something romantic during an informed second playthrough.

I wanted more Zack/Aerith and Zack/Cloud interactions in CC, too. ;___; (I'm greedy, lol.)

Yeah, I wanted more between established characters in general. I still think that there could have been an amazing story to tell in Crisis Core but genesis wasn't it. Honestly think it could have worked way better if there had been a genuine friendship established between Zack and Sephiroth somehow as the basis for tragedy.

You know, it's amazing that there are still people who think the love triangle is even more of a mess and up for grabs after P2, lol. I'm really curious how they see these games but I guess it's just seeing everything through the lens of shipping?

I get it. Remake and Rebirth look like they're trying to demolish the love triangle. But if you're watching a building get demolished you're still watching a building, which is more proof of "a building" than the absolute nothing we got in the OG.
In showing how the romance between Cloud and Aerith doesn't really work they're still showing them with romantic connotations.

 

[thetriplerhyme]

Cleriths argued that Aerith having a "head start" in point values was an indicator that she was the destined pair, IIRC.
But yeah, no one ever considered the implications of player choice meaning you could also "choose" Barret or Yuffie. It was always between T and A.

This is because of their roles as I explained in my previous post people back in OG people never understood that they're different characters and different roles and it will be reverse in the end.

Aerith first introduce to us as flower lady in the street and initially attracted to Cloud but she's also last living cetra as time goes back she will discover her heritage and her focus will not be on Cloud's anymore ( although he is important too ) --> narrative thought us she cannot help him AT ALL

Tifa is a member of avalanche whose trying to fight Shinra and as story goes by she's also the childhood friend of Cloud whom he grew up with. Her focus will be less of the avalache ( although they're still important ) but more on detriorating situation of CLOUD.

hence also included their feelings --> AERITH is attracted to CLOUD because of persona he's trying to show ( ZACK ) she never get pass through the persona and died before even scraching the exterior

TIFA ( IN OG ) in introduce to us a childhood friend but as time goes by they realize their deep relationship and mutual feelings

character development ( it changes )

Well, Cloud LITERALLY took his persona from Zack, Aerith just acted like she did in OG because she wanted Zack back and subconsciously threw those desires onto the blondie acting unusually like him. Slightly different scenarios.

Although this is Jenova I think it's also CLOUD who refuses to let go of ZACK he embodied his persona because he's the exact strong person he thinks will be able to protect their friends ( unlike original him and he failed to protect TIFA time and time again -- bridge and Nibelheim accident)

- this is why Aerith's death hurts him more this time because THIS IS THE STRONG PERSON who he thinks will be able to protect their friends ( soldier cloud) unlike him back in Zack ( he's totally helpless as he is catatonic ) --> again experiencing that 'helplessness' again and unable to do anything for them is a 'sin' he commited.

its not about losing her as romantic partner but unable to 'protect someone again' and being 'helpless' even with SOLDIER CLOUD ( Zack persona) is unforgivable

It's also arguable that the lifestream reveal makes it so that everything people liked about cloud and aerith, namely him being her bodyguard, is suddenly repurposed to actually be about tifa. You can always feel like that if you choose to take stuff the worst way.

This is one of the lacking I see in OG TIFA is literally kept in the dark until the climax and people have the hard time accepting it even if Aerith's already dead. My case I can see it more clearly (it weird out that Aerith's always have a rude or worst answer but Tifa's like the best foot forward always )

can see why they changed it on Remake and Rebirth

I'm not sure they were actually ostracized by the village. Cloud was on the outs with the village boys but that was because he was being a weirdo

yeaah just like how he did in ACC he reverted back into that state -- if he has a problem / issue instead of talking it out he tries to handles it by himself and if he cannot handle it he isolates himself.

Back in the day young Tifa never understood and just tried to keep on approaching him ( TOTP ) but older Tifa ( probably because she has own issues as well) knows his vulnerable side and just let him be and ' scolds' him when needed putting him back on track

 

[thetriplerhyme]

In showing how the romance between Cloud and Aerith doesn't really work they're still showing them with romantic connotations.

Because its already part of the narrative for Aerith to be confused on Cloud with Zack's persona its part of her whole character so they cannot remove it totally. Instead they remove the little details and put them into a non - romantic elements and higlights the other pair instead.

They put Cloud's reaction and his non-verbal cues so people will see it more clearly and highlights even more on how he reacts with Tifa.

Put extra romantic elements with Tifa and Cloud ( although optional still cuz we're still in dics 1)

 

[Sacky]

Yeah, Aerith being the person to summon Holy is her role in the greater narrative, but her being the one to die at Sephiroth's hand could have been taken by anyone but Tifa and Cloud's narrative would probably play out more or less identically. Why Sephypoo would kill them would take a lot more narrative massaging, mind you, as he killed Aerith because she could actively interfere with his big plan. Maybe someone noble sacrifice shoves her out of the way or something, I don't know.


Well, Cloud LITERALLY took his persona from Zack, Aerith just acted like she did in OG because she wanted Zack back and subconsciously threw those desires onto the blondie acting unusually like him. Slightly different scenarios.


I mean, at the end of the shell game you have to show where the pretty lady has always been, after all.


There is a lot to love narratively about Crisis Core. I just wish there was more variety in mission maps.


I'm not sure they were actually ostracized by the village. Cloud was on the outs with the village boys but that was because he was being a weirdo and THAT was because of Tifa, but we never get any indication that Claudia was disliked. IIRC she and Tifa's mom were quite close when the latter was still alive.


Yeah, without Tifa bringing him back from Mako poisoning the story would necessarily be entirely different, even if Zack was alive.

Reading traces again, the village scolded her but was secretly cheering her on. I guess theres this but i misremebered how the village treated them XD my bad

 

[Sacky]

I think absolutely this is likely how it's going to go. There were far too many hints of ZA stuff sprinkled throughout the game. I don't think you need me to repeat them at all, but just gonna put them down here anyway (with more i'm probably missing)

Hand holding through the Lifestream.
Zack looking up at the sky as reunion petals fly past as we cut to Aerith looking up at the same sky and asking Cloud what direction Midgar is at.
Multiple scenes at the end of seemingly Aerith helping Zack multiple times.
Zack ending up at the Church with blooming flowers saying worlds can reunite again.
Zack bonding with Elmyra and Aerith and Elmyra's house being referred to ingame as "Home" for Zack

These are just a couple scenes, but then even from the first scene of the game we see Zack's devotion to Aerith, and how he stays devoted to her throughout all of his segments, even if he is slightly upset and confused by what Marlene is saying, he doesn't hold anything against Cloud (obviously he doesn't know the full story or anything yet about what Aerith really feels or what Cloud feels etc) and see's the bigger picture is saving Aerith regardless. They can talk later.

Not only this but;

Aerith herself admits in Gongaga she still has feelings for Zack.
Reagrdless of what anybody thinks of what she feels for Cloud, there is no way you can deny she is confused and unsure about the Zack situation and and her feelings for him right up until the end of the game. (S5 date etc)
Cloud remembers his friend Zack this time around and how "head over heels" he was for Aerith
Aerith admits to Cloud that she likes him, but isn't even sure what kind of like that is, whether it's a friendly platonic like or a romantic like (So for anybody to say she's currently head over heels in love with Cloud is wildly over the top)

Now I know in the English VA (Maybe not in the Japanese VA) they contextualise the Church as Cloud and Aerith's place, "our place" although I believe in the Japanese it's just "a place of memories" (I may be wrong on this). Regardless Cloud and Aerith have a whole one memory there, granted it was memorable but it wasn't like it lasted long either. Cloud seems to not even know where Aerith is talking about at first until she almost spells it out for him. However who do we cut too sat right outside the Church already? Zack.

I also don't think it's a coincidence they updated this keyart for Crisis Core Reunion

View attachment 15347View attachment 15348

Left is the original Crisis Core key art, and on the right is the same keyart but updated for Crisis Core Reunion, and it's putting them in the church.

Like at this point it would almost be completely negligent to the story if they didn't reunite in Part 3 considering all they've interwoven within it. If absolutely nothing else the reason why i go with your assumption that CT and ZA will be the endgame is because of everything that has happened in Remake and Rebirth so far it makes the most sense, to have CA be endgame at this point 2 games in would be far FAR too messy a proposition to realistically and properly pull off in Part 3 without pulling out massive threads of story and character development that has already happened. I feel like the time for CA to be considered endgame for P3 was to write the Retrilogy that way from the very beginning, or at least solidify it in Rebirth.

How are you going to explain Cloud remembering his best friend Zack and his feelings for Aerith, and then Cloud making the moves on Aerith not long after that.
How are you going to explain Cloud kissing Tifa and then immediately moving to Aerith and, say, kissing her or romancing her like nothing happened as if he's some playboy
How are you going to explain bringing Zack back and showing his total and utter devotion to Aerith in virtually every scene, only for him to get sent to the sidelines in Part 3, there's no way Aerith as a character would do that.
How do you explain making Tifa go through the absolute wringer for Cloud, physically and emotionally, only to say Cloud was just using her because he was jealous of Aerith and that's why he kissed her (a popular theory for some reason)

They could have easily created a CA love story without ever needing to do any of these things, or the other multitude of things they put in Remake or Rebirth, that would ultimately undermine the characters and the story. There's just so much more they'd need to either throw in the bin or somehow try and explain away like it never happened in Part 3. It would be absolute insanity to do this and I don't think a lot of people are fully coming to grips with this yet.

Everybody is free to ship whoever they want and honestly as long as it makes them happy that is what matters at the end of the day, but I think at this point things are only directing one way and i'd be mind blown if it didn't end up that way.

The new take ive seen about Zack is he was added as an X factor to the plot. Whatever that means XD and Zack will help fix Cloud because Marlene told him he needs to fix him

 

[LunarTarotGirl]

I just wanted to point out I have seen several people point to themselves as "extremists" here when you've been nothing but calm and polite?

I always thought extremist meant someone who insults others and in general goes too far over their ship. Like they have character hate essays or they attack and harass people?

But I guess the definition varies? Is it different here?
I was very surprised though, at least from what I have observed I don't think I would use that description for anyone here.

 

[KindOfBlue]

I have a five-tier ranking system for shippers:

Level 1 - Normal. Appreciates their ship but accepts the outcome of the story even their ship isn’t endgame.
Ex. “I prefer Aerith, but I accept what happens between Cloud and Tifa.”

Level 2 - Misinformed. Genuine, but believes common misconceptions perpetuated by other shippers.
Ex.1 “The way Cloud feels towards the girls depends on the player”.
Ex.2 “Cloud only likes Aerith because he thinks he’s Zack.”

Level 3 - Dishonest. Intentionally misrepresents the story/characters to try to win a shipping war.
Ex. “Cloud and Aerith are the intended couple of FF7, Tifa’s ‘route’ is out-of-character.”

Level 4 - Delusional. Essentially rewrites the story to make everything about their ship.
Ex. “Tifa accepts defeat because she realizes Cloud only truly loves Aerith.”

Level 5 - Whatever the hell Jairus was.

 

[Hellenic]

… that’s kind of disappointing. Weren’t other JRPGs at the time doing class specializations? I wouldn’t know, I only got into JRPGs over the last 10 years. I really thought there was a good reason to use Aerith when possible since she’s the only person who thematically looks like a magic user.
But I guess since the game is designed like that, you’re free to use any character and team composition with ease and mostly based on personal preference. Which is even crazier, since it seems like OG doesn’t do anything before Aerith’s death to suggest any character attachments one way or the other outside of headcanons, I guess. So the only concrete romantic plot point is the Lifestream (and Highwind?). Making the fact that the LTD has even gotten this heated way more confusing to me.

Yeah OG was mostly defined by materia loadouts and characters limits, which in turn made a lot of people opt to run characters like Barret, Cid or Yuffie, because they had the highest hit count limits available besides Cloud.

Game was never really hard enough to make me feel like i needed Aerith specifically to be my caster and such, couse virtually anyone could do that to great effect with materias.

Also depending on who are in your party in towns or dungeons, you would potentially miss out on some bonding moments between some, like i never really saw Aerith and Tifa converse in my playthroughs as i pretty much always had Tifa in my party, while not really using Aerith and you would need to have neither character in your party to see them converse around towns.

Just like with the Remake series, Aeriths biggest presence i feel was during Midgar and she faded to the side till Temple, so the romantic build up just wasn't there for me really. On the other hand, the Lifestream sequence and Highwind drew it home to me that Tifa was the real deal pretty hard.

 

[Ryushikaze]

This is because of their roles as I explained in my previous post people back in OG people never understood that they're different characters and different roles and it will be reverse in the end.

Aerith first introduce to us as flower lady in the street and initially attracted to Cloud but she's also last living cetra as time goes back she will discover her heritage and her focus will not be on Cloud's anymore ( although he is important too ) --> narrative thought us she cannot help him AT ALL

Tifa is a member of avalanche whose trying to fight Shinra and as story goes by she's also the childhood friend of Cloud whom he grew up with. Her focus will be less of the avalache ( although they're still important ) but more on detriorating situation of CLOUD.

hence also included their feelings --> AERITH is attracted to CLOUD because of persona he's trying to show ( ZACK ) she never get pass through the persona and died before even scraching the exterior

TIFA ( IN OG ) in introduce to us a childhood friend but as time goes by they realize their deep relationship and mutual feelings

character development ( it changes )

You don't have to tell me that the characters are complex creatures who are far more complicated than a simple dating game value would suggest. I was just re-iterating an argument that had been made to me on multiple occasions.

Although this is Jenova I think it's also CLOUD who refuses to let go of ZACK he embodied his persona because he's the exact strong person he thinks will be able to protect their friends ( unlike original him and he failed to protect TIFA time and time again -- bridge and Nibelheim accident)

- this is why Aerith's death hurts him more this time because THIS IS THE STRONG PERSON who he thinks will be able to protect their friends ( soldier cloud) unlike him back in Zack ( he's totally helpless as he is catatonic ) --> again experiencing that 'helplessness' again and unable to do anything for them is a 'sin' he commited.

its not about losing her as romantic partner but unable to 'protect someone again' and being 'helpless' even with SOLDIER CLOUD ( Zack persona) is unforgivable

Yes, Cloud beats himself up for failing to protect someone. He takes it extremely seriously, and it's why Zack and Aerith's deaths weigh on him two years later, part of why he leaves the happiness of his family - he sees it as his penance and his punishment for failing his friends and also his son.

This is one of the lacking I see in OG TIFA is literally kept in the dark until the climax and people have the hard time accepting it even if Aerith's already dead. My case I can see it more clearly (it weird out that Aerith's always have a rude or worst answer but Tifa's like the best foot forward always )

can see why they changed it on Remake and Rebirth

The expanded time of remake gives them a lot more time to show both ladies in their totalities.

yeaah just like how he did in ACC he reverted back into that state -- if he has a problem / issue instead of talking it out he tries to handles it by himself and if he cannot handle it he isolates himself.

Back in the day young Tifa never understood and just tried to keep on approaching him ( TOTP ) but older Tifa ( probably because she has own issues as well) knows his vulnerable side and just let him be and ' scolds' him when needed putting him back on track

Tifa saying "please go do this" is basically the one surefire way to make Cloud do something. Even when he feels he's absolutely a useless lump, if Tifa says "you gotta try for me" he tries his damndest.

I have a five-tier ranking system for shippers:

Level 1 - Normal. Appreciates their ship but accepts the outcome of the story even their ship isn’t endgame.
Ex. “I prefer Aerith, but I accept what happens between Cloud and Tifa.”

Level 2 - Misinformed. Genuine, but believes common misconceptions perpetuated by other shippers.
Ex.1 “The way Cloud feels towards the girls depends on the player”.
Ex.2 “Cloud only likes Aerith because he thinks he’s Zack.”

Level 3 - Dishonest. Intentionally misrepresents the story/characters to try to win a shipping war.
Ex. “Cloud and Aerith are the intended couple of FF7, Tifa’s ‘route’ is out-of-character.”

Level 4 - Delusional. Essentially rewrites the story to make everything about their ship.
Ex. “Tifa accepts defeat because she realizes Cloud only truly loves Aerith.”

Level 5 - Whatever the hell Jairus was.

Jairus, as far as I know, essentially had a psychotic break about the death of his wife who he thought looked like Jessie and went all in with her as a transference object to transfer his feelings to. As you can imagine based on what has happened, this is far from a healthy coping mechanism.

 

[thetriplerhyme]

Level 5 - Whatever the hell Jairus was.

- he certainly on a different level on craziness right? hahahhahaahah but thank you for this i got a good laugh i needed this HAHAHAHAH