SPOILERS LTD Remake — It's like New Coke except ... no, it's exactly like New Coke

[Ryushikaze]

The way Jill is written in XVI makes me mad. Like, I was like a bit WTF on how they let her down, then I played FFXIV Heavensward and went "ok I get it why she's written like this now, but that makes me even madder". Don't let them tell you Mahiro doesn't know how to write female characters, he knows perfectly how to do it. The fact is he's chosent not to do it for Jill because they got complains about that one character she resembles a lot in HS and so they tried to soften the blow there I guess.

I really hope that DLC will do her justice. /end of rant not pertaining to FFVII or the LTD XD

Oh and BTW @LunarTarotGirl I call myself an extremist because I stand by that Cloud, while absolutely cherishing Aerith, doesn't have romantic feelings for her. Here that grants you that title xD

I suppose I would incur that title too because I insist the case be made that Cloud had romantic feelings towards Aerith rather than that being the default assumption, but A: Proper argumentative methods are important and each side must fulfill their burden of proof and B: I think it's allowed to be a little bit petty after years of C/A people insisting that Cloud never loved Tifa in the first place in spite of all the evidence.

 

[Stiggie]

I just wanted to point out I have seen several people point to themselves as "extremists" here when you've been nothing but calm and polite?

I always thought extremist meant someone who insults others and in general goes too far over their ship. Like they have character hate essays or they attack and harass people?

But I guess the definition varies? Is it different here?
I was very surprised though, at least from what I have observed I don't think I would use that description for anyone here.

It depends I suppose, I don't think I'm an extremist, I've been called one though. And I think the argument could easily be made that the very act of spending significant time talking about something as trivial as a gaming love triangle by itself qualifies one to be an extremist.

I mean, how many people are actively discussing stuff on this board? Maybe 100 or so? Of the millions of FFVII fans?

Environment also matters, it's simply a natural occurrence that places like Twitter don't exactly nourish productive debate. Any place that makes people feel like they are shouting into a void stimulates the urge to shout louder. That's what people do when they feel unheard.

So people here might not be less extremist, just less on edge as it were.

 

[Ryeleigh]

I just wanted to point out I have seen several people point to themselves as "extremists" here when you've been nothing but calm and polite?

I always thought extremist meant someone who insults others and in general goes too far over their ship. Like they have character hate essays or they attack and harass people?

But I guess the definition varies? Is it different here?
I was very surprised though, at least from what I have observed I don't think I would use that description for anyone here.

I guess saying that personally I didn't get romantic vibes from Cloud to Aerith isn't that extreme, at least compared to what's going on in Twitter or Tumblr, lol.

And yes, I think this place is calm and polite so it's a shame that people avoid this place like the plague too. But I guess it's understandable that people just want to be left alone with their beliefs, especially if they're ingrained and dearly held.

 

[Lex]

And yes, I think this place is calm and polite so it's a shame that people avoid this place like the plague too. But I guess it's understandable that people just want to be left alone with their beliefs, especially if they're ingrained and dearly held.

What a long road it was to get to the point where someone has this read in the LTD thread of all places. I'm so proud of how far we've come.

 

[Ryeleigh]

What a long road it was to get to the point where someone has this read in the LTD thread of all places. I'm so proud of how far we've come.

To be honest, I checked on the Rebirth Spoilers Thread and that one seems a lot wilder than this one, lol.

 

[Eerie]

What a long road it was to get to the point where someone has this read in the LTD thread of all places. I'm so proud of how far we've come.

It tells about how much we've gotten old lol, or maybe it's also paired with the fact that the discourse elsewhere in social media has become worse than what we used to see I believe (which is more scary than anything tbh).

I definitely think that a forum where you can put down your thoughts calmly to elaborate on an idea you have, is always much better than anything else we have. The speed of the internet elsewhere just doesn't allow that - even reddit doesn't, because it's too easy to manipulate with votes.

 

[Ryushikaze]

What a long road it was to get to the point where someone has this read in the LTD thread of all places. I'm so proud of how far we've come.

You'll find that as the firehose flow of bullshit coming our way specifically has tapered off, so too has the rage and vitriol.

 

[cgnVirtue]

To be honest, I checked on the Rebirth Spoilers Thread and that one seems a lot wilder than this one, lol.

I’m a bit scared of that thread to tell the truth lol. I just revisited it.

I think it’s kind of hilarious that, outside of passionate shippers, theories have gotten people so heated.
I don’t know if they meant to do this, but it’s really interesting that from what I’ve seen about the LTD, most discussions revolving around the LTD have moved on. It seems like everybody’s seen Tifa’s GS date and the kiss, there’s a compilation of reactions from all kinds of creators, and every article I’ve ever seen regarding it always (even reluctantly) mentions that the LTD is over. Like that’s all there is on the matter according to regular fans.
But when talking about theories of the ending of Remake/Rebirth, where the story is headed, changes, etc. people get super heated.
It’s almost as if SE themselves were tired of FFVII discussions being about “Who is Cloud’s girlfriend” and instead created dialogue about something else. Which, if they did mean to do this, I don’t blame them. It’s a better look, in my opinion, for FFVII discussions to be about convoluted writing than it is about who wants to date who.
Though perhaps they didn’t do this on purpose. But it does make their game and their story a lot easier to take seriously without the LTD being at the forefront.

 

[abzy1200]

Hi, I'm new here so if this post is in the wrong thread or comes off as rude, I'm sorry in advance.

So, does anyone here still think that the remake trilogy will end with Advent children? because I feel like it would be awkward for it to, especially since some stuff like Kyrie were placed into the remakes, it would just make some stuff feel disjointed.

With that said, I can't help but feel like Clerith will be canon in the re;trilogy, or atleast the ambiguity around it will be brought back from the dead again, and before I go any further I'm a Cloti, and firmly believe it is THE pairing of ff7 by the time of Advent Children.

My reasoning for this is as follows; I assume most of us accept that a Clerith ending of this story is a bad one, and would only serve to hurt basically all three characters involved in the original love triangle. I also assume that most of us are partial to the belief that Remake and Rebirth had, to put it in the best way possible, weak endings, since it is the general opinion I see online.

So far, that leaves us with 2/3 games in this trilogy having bad endings, and now that it's a pattern and the story will only get more derailed from here on out, it's not unfair to assume the third game will also have a bad ending with all of the dimension jumping stuff being even more prominent.

Maybe I'm just being pessimistic since I'm just kind of like that, but I can't help but feel that, with Aerith "dead", the perfect spot for Square Enix to give her screentime and importance in the third game will be to include her in the lifestream sequence, especially with the new addition of Cloud deluding himself about Aeriths death. The same way Square Enix wasn't going to make Remake without Sephiroth having a role, I feel that there's no way Square Enix would develop an entire ff7 game with Aerith, (one of the most iconic and marketable video game characters ever) only having as much of a role as Zack did in Rebirth.

Aerith appearing in the lifestream sequence, in my eyes atleast, cheapens it HEAVILY. It is basically the moment in the original it tells the player "Cloud was living a lie all long, and that he has deeply ingrained feelings for another woman". It is a pivotal moment for the Cloud and Tifa pairing, and Aerith being there, honestly, would kind of ruin it, because now it isn't a Cloud and Tifa moment, it's just a story beat like any other.

This is where the ambiguity comes back into play in the Re;trilogy. With Katou gone from Square Enix, (presumably) Square Enix keeping the third game to a teen rating, and keeping the affection mechanics from Rebirth, I can't see the highwind scene being an implied sex scene like it used to be, or anything special if not being gutted by Square completely, It was already a miracle it was added in the first place.

Pair all this with the fact the third game "linking up" with Advent Children doesn't seem possible due to characters like Kyrie being repurposed, and that the third game will probably have a terrible ending like the two that came before it, I think the Re;trilogy will almost definitely have either:

1) A Clerith ending
2) Way too much ambiguity, with it favouring Clerith.

So, those are my thoughts. Again, if this is posted in the wrong thread or came off as rude, I'm really sorry.

 

[GamerSkull]

Hi, I'm new here so if this post is in the wrong thread or comes off as rude, I'm sorry in advance.

So, does anyone here still think that the remake trilogy will end with Advent children? because I feel like it would be awkward for it to, especially since some stuff like Kyrie were placed into the remakes, it would just make some stuff feel disjointed.

With that said, I can't help but feel like Clerith will be canon in the re;trilogy, or atleast the ambiguity around it will be brought back from the dead again, and before I go any further I'm a Cloti, and firmly believe it is THE pairing of ff7 by the time of Advent Children.

My reasoning for this is as follows; I assume most of us accept that a Clerith ending of this story is a bad one, and would only serve to hurt basically all three characters involved in the original love triangle. I also assume that most of us are partial to the belief that Remake and Rebirth had, to put it in the best way possible, weak endings, since it is the general opinion I see online.

So far, that leaves us with 2/3 games in this trilogy having bad endings, and now that it's a pattern and the story will only get more derailed from here on out, it's not unfair to assume the third game will also have a bad ending with all of the dimension jumping stuff being even more prominent.

Maybe I'm just being pessimistic since I'm just kind of like that, but I can't help but feel that, with Aerith "dead", the perfect spot for Square Enix to give her screentime and importance in the third game will be to include her in the lifestream sequence, especially with the new addition of Cloud deluding himself about Aeriths death. The same way Square Enix wasn't going to make Remake without Sephiroth having a role, I feel that there's no way Square Enix would develop an entire ff7 game with Aerith, (one of the most iconic and marketable video game characters ever) only having as much of a role as Zack did in Rebirth.

Aerith appearing in the lifestream sequence, in my eyes atleast, cheapens it HEAVILY. It is basically the moment in the original it tells the player "Cloud was living a lie all long, and that he has deeply ingrained feelings for another woman". It is a pivotal moment for the Cloud and Tifa pairing, and Aerith being there, honestly, would kind of ruin it, because now it isn't a Cloud and Tifa moment, it's just a story beat like any other.

This is where the ambiguity comes back into play in the Re;trilogy. With Katou gone from Square Enix, (presumably) Square Enix keeping the third game to a teen rating, and keeping the affection mechanics from Rebirth, I can't see the highwind scene being an implied sex scene like it used to be, or anything special if not being gutted by Square completely, It was already a miracle it was added in the first place.

Pair all this with the fact the third game "linking up" with Advent Children doesn't seem possible due to characters like Kyrie being repurposed, and that the third game will probably have a terrible ending like the two that came before it, I think the Re;trilogy will almost definitely have either:

1) A Clerith ending
2) Way too much ambiguity, with it favouring Clerith.

So, those are my thoughts. Again, if this is posted in the wrong thread or came off as rude, I'm really sorry.

I mean, I suppose it is possible. I feel like it would be pretty a shitty thing to do to Tifa and Zack though.

If they really want to do Clerith, then they should not be including some of Cloti scenes and the Zack scenes in Rebirth. It makes it really messy, and I would have a hard time really liking Cloud if he ends up with Aerith with some of the decisions he has made already.

Thing is, the writers have expressly stated they’d be leaving things less open for interpretation. So ambiguity is definitely not the route to go.

Plus, I think this all could largely still end up with Advent Children. Just some small thinks like Kyrie would be weird. But even TKAA can still play out mostly the same, just that Kyrie knows the group.

Also, I agree that the endings to both games have been weak, but that doesn’t mean a bad third ending is gonna be a Clerith one because Clerith is considered a bad ending. I don’t know if that’s what you are saying but I don’t see the tracking there.

And welcome!

 

[abzy1200]

I mean, I suppose it is possible. I feel like it would be pretty a shitty thing to do to Tifa and Zack though.

If they really want to do Clerith, then they should not be including some of Cloti scenes and the Zack scenes in Rebirth. It makes it really messy, and I would have a hard time really liking Cloud if he ends up with Aerith with some of the decisions he has made already.

Here's the thing, that's my point.

It would be awful, it would be a travesty, but the Re;trilogy now has a pattern of having terrible endings, and with things escalating even more than they did in remake in regards to weird timeline/dimension stuff, I can't help but feel like it's going to happen again that we get another bad ending.

My other worries in regards to advent children is that stuff added in the next game might make it hard to link up with it sensibly. I honestly feel like Kitase and Nomura saying things will remain relatively unchanged and that it will link up with Advent Children is just press talk to keep people happy.

Thanks for the reply though, very much appreciated.

 

[Legend45]

I mean, I suppose it is possible. I feel like it would be pretty a shitty thing to do to Tifa and Zack though.

If they really want to do Clerith, then they should not be including some of Cloti scenes and the Zack scenes in Rebirth. It makes it really messy, and I would have a hard time really liking Cloud if he ends up with Aerith with some of the decisions he has made already.

Thing is, the writers have expressly stated they’d be leaving things less open for interpretation. So ambiguity is definitely not the route to go.

Plus, I think this all could largely still end up with Advent Children. Just some small thinks like Kyrie would be weird. But even TKAA can still play out mostly the same, just that Kyrie knows the group.

And welcome!

No offense to Aerith but if a Clerith ending happened it would ruin the entierty of Advant Children. Cloud's guilt and regret is part of the core theme of the movie of acceptance and forgiveness and letting go of the past. Not only that it would just feel fucking disgusting to watch Tifa take care of Danzel and Marelene knowing Cloud is in love with another woman the whole time.

 

[Hellenic]

With that said, I can't help but feel like Clerith will be canon in the re;trilogy, or atleast the ambiguity around it will be brought back from the dead again, and before I go any further I'm a Cloti, and firmly believe it is THE pairing of ff7 by the time of Advent Children.

They went out of their way to give us a clear answer to the Clerith ship in Rebirth right here and showed us exactly why it won't work out. Aerith just can't get over Zack fully and Cloud can't give Aerith what she wants from him.

My reasoning for this is as follows; I assume most of us accept that a Clerith ending of this story is a bad one, and would only serve to hurt basically all three characters involved in the original love triangle. I also assume that most of us are partial to the belief that Remake and Rebirth had, to put it in the best way possible, weak endings, since it is the general opinion I see online.

Yes. Said ending would remove any purpose for Zack and Tifas characters and what they are already setting up for them and they're not gonna be stupid enough to do all this for nothing.

So far, that leaves us with 2/3 games in this trilogy having bad endings, and now that it's a pattern and the story will only get more derailed from here on out, it's not unfair to assume the third game will also have a bad ending with all of the dimension jumping stuff being even more prominent.

I do think the third games ending will at the very least not introduce anymore new questions and mysteries, as it should be the closure to this trilogy, so they need to explain away what they've set up so far and have a proper finale to account for that.

Maybe I'm just being pessimistic since I'm just kind of like that, but I can't help but feel that, with Aerith "dead", the perfect spot for Square Enix to give her screentime and importance in the third game will be to include her in the lifestream sequence, especially with the new addition of Cloud deluding himself about Aeriths death. The same way Square Enix wasn't going to make Remake without Sephiroth having a role, I feel that there's no way Square Enix would develop an entire ff7 game with Aerith, (one of the most iconic and marketable video game characters ever) only having as much of a role as Zack did in Rebirth.

Aerith appearing in the lifestream sequence, in my eyes atleast, cheapens it HEAVILY. It is basically the moment in the original it tells the player "Cloud was living a lie all long, and that he has deeply ingrained feelings for another woman". It is a pivotal moment for the Cloud and Tifa pairing, and Aerith being there, honestly, would kind of ruin it, because now it isn't a Cloud and Tifa moment, it's just a story beat like any other.

Aerith is definitely gonna be having more of a presence than she had at this point in OG, but i don't expect her to play any kinda major role for the Lifestream scene, as it's a lot of the devs favourite sequence in the OG game and i imagine they wanna put their heart and soul into that, not to mention the prep work they have already done for it with the Gongaga Tifa Lifestream experience we had in Rebirth. I have full faith that they will deliver on this part of the game at the very least.

Pair all this with the fact the third game "linking up" with Advent Children doesn't seem possible due to characters like Kyrie being repurposed, and that the third game will probably have a terrible ending like the two that came before it, I think the Re;trilogy will almost definitely have either:

1) A Clerith ending
2) Way too much ambiguity, with it favouring Clerith.

There are definitely elements that can make AC and the other later material feel disjointed in places, so not really sure how they'll handle that.

Genuinely not sure how you came to the conclusion that we are either getting a Clerith ending or them favouring Clerith in the third game at all, when the third game is very much gonna be the Cloud and Tifa show for the most part and Rebirth already basically closing up the Clerith chapter for us. They're not gonna backpedal after going this hard for the Cloti and Zerith setups that need payoffs.

 

[GamerSkull]

Here's the thing, that's my point.

It would be awful, it would be a travesty, but the Re;trilogy now has a pattern of having terrible endings, and with things escalating even more than they did in remake in regards to weird timeline/dimension stuff, I can't help but feel like it's going to happen again that we get another bad ending.

My other worries in regards to advent children is that stuff added in the next game might make it hard to link up with it sensibly. I honestly feel like Kitase and Nomura saying things will remain relatively unchanged and that it will link up with Advent Children is just press talk to keep people happy.

Thanks for the reply though, very much appreciated.

I understand what you’re saying. A pattern of bad endings means that a third one will have it too. But I don’t see how Clerith plays into this.

Part 3’s ending could be bad even with a Cloti ending too, you know.

Let’s be honest, the endings are bad because they convolute the story, but nothing has actually been changed much as far as the events that occurred.

We will probably have a bunch of whisper timeline bullshit with Part 3’s ending, even if it ends the same as OG.

 

[abzy1200]

My other worries in regards to advent children is that stuff added in the next game might make it hard to link up with it sensibly. I honestly feel like Kitase and Nomura saying things will remain relatively unchanged and that it will link up with Advent Children is just press talk to keep people happy.

Sorry for double posting but I felt I should have elaborated on this a little more. "stuff" here is referring to new developments like the war with Wutai and the Glenn stuff. and also Cloud's whole guilt arc in advent children, It feels like they are pushing it into the re;trilogy, so having it done again in Advent Children would feel redundant.

 

[GamerSkull]

Sorry for double posting but I felt I should have elaborated on this a little more. "stuff" here is referring to new developments like the war with Wutai and the Glenn stuff. and also Cloud's whole guilt arc in advent children, It feels like they are pushing it into the re;trilogy, so having it done again in Advent Children would feel redundant.

Personally, I could still buy Cloud going through a depressive state, but then followed by another one two years later when he’s unable to deal with Denzel’s geostigma.

Sometimes, mental health be like that.

Thing is, if they fail on Part 3. Then they’ll fail with what they’ve already set up. They won’t just completely shift plot points to fail.

Part 3’s ending will probably be just as convoluted as Part 1 and 2. But I fail to see how Clerith would play into it.

 

[abzy1200]

Personally, I could still buy Cloud going through a depressive state, but then followed by another one two years later when he’s unable to deal with Denzel’s geostigma.

Sometimes, mental health be like that.

I guess, but it would still make Advent Children feel redundant. Especially when Sephiroth shows up and he's not omni or meta or whatever, he's just back to normal evil Sephiroth, the same goes for Aerith, I feel like that is the biggest disjoint and why "linking up" with advent children would just seem awkward.

 

[GamerSkull]

I guess, but it would still make Advent Children feel redundant. Especially when Sephiroth shows up and he's not omni or meta or whatever, he's just back to normal evil Sephiroth, the same goes for Aerith, I feel like that is the biggest disjoint and why "linking up" with advent children would just seem awkward.

I get what you’re saying. I just don’t really see your reasoning behind the Clerith portion of it.

“Parts 1 and 2 had bad endings. Therefore bad Part 3 ending = Clerith”.

The writers are still gonna try to pay off what they have set up. If Part 3’s ending is bad, it will be a bad payoff to what’s already set up.

 

[GamerSkull]

I guess, but it would still make Advent Children feel redundant. Especially when Sephiroth shows up and he's not omni or meta or whatever, he's just back to normal evil Sephiroth, the same goes for Aerith, I feel like that is the biggest disjoint and why "linking up" with advent children would just seem awkward.

I actually don’t think we’re going to see guilt-ridden Cloud tbh. I think whatever guilt he’ll have will mostly be used to play into the breakdown at the Northern Cave.

Then he won’t be awake again until after Mideel, where the writers will want to show the Real Cloud, which probably won’t be the moody AC Cloud yet.

And then when all the dust settles, AC can tackle the guilty Cloud.

Sure, certain things that have happened now do create some very slight incongruities with AC and TKAA but I think they can still fit in for the most part.

Actually, tbh the only thing I can think of is that Kyrie knows the group, but they have so little interaction in the book that it isn’t that bad. The only real incongruity is that she doesn’t have any lines that imply she’s known them.

 

[nars305]

Hi, I'm new here so if this post is in the wrong thread or comes off as rude, I'm sorry in advance.

So, does anyone here still think that the remake trilogy will end with Advent children? because I feel like it would be awkward for it to, especially since some stuff like Kyrie were placed into the remakes, it would just make some stuff feel disjointed.

With that said, I can't help but feel like Clerith will be canon in the re;trilogy, or atleast the ambiguity around it will be brought back from the dead again, and before I go any further I'm a Cloti, and firmly believe it is THE pairing of ff7 by the time of Advent Children.

My reasoning for this is as follows; I assume most of us accept that a Clerith ending of this story is a bad one, and would only serve to hurt basically all three characters involved in the original love triangle. I also assume that most of us are partial to the belief that Remake and Rebirth had, to put it in the best way possible, weak endings, since it is the general opinion I see online.

So far, that leaves us with 2/3 games in this trilogy having bad endings, and now that it's a pattern and the story will only get more derailed from here on out, it's not unfair to assume the third game will also have a bad ending with all of the dimension jumping stuff being even more prominent.

Maybe I'm just being pessimistic since I'm just kind of like that, but I can't help but feel that, with Aerith "dead", the perfect spot for Square Enix to give her screentime and importance in the third game will be to include her in the lifestream sequence, especially with the new addition of Cloud deluding himself about Aeriths death. The same way Square Enix wasn't going to make Remake without Sephiroth having a role, I feel that there's no way Square Enix would develop an entire ff7 game with Aerith, (one of the most iconic and marketable video game characters ever) only having as much of a role as Zack did in Rebirth.

Aerith appearing in the lifestream sequence, in my eyes atleast, cheapens it HEAVILY. It is basically the moment in the original it tells the player "Cloud was living a lie all long, and that he has deeply ingrained feelings for another woman". It is a pivotal moment for the Cloud and Tifa pairing, and Aerith being there, honestly, would kind of ruin it, because now it isn't a Cloud and Tifa moment, it's just a story beat like any other.

This is where the ambiguity comes back into play in the Re;trilogy. With Katou gone from Square Enix, (presumably) Square Enix keeping the third game to a teen rating, and keeping the affection mechanics from Rebirth, I can't see the highwind scene being an implied sex scene like it used to be, or anything special if not being gutted by Square completely, It was already a miracle it was added in the first place.

Pair all this with the fact the third game "linking up" with Advent Children doesn't seem possible due to characters like Kyrie being repurposed, and that the third game will probably have a terrible ending like the two that came before it, I think the Re;trilogy will almost definitely have either:

1) A Clerith ending
2) Way too much ambiguity, with it favouring Clerith.

So, those are my thoughts. Again, if this is posted in the wrong thread or came off as rude, I'm really sorry.

Hey I’m also new, and thank god I am because I can’t imagine having a debate for nearly 30 years. It looks like I got into this at the right time lol.

I’ll preface my response by saying for me it’s not a matter of shipping, I am just following the narrative provided which is that Cloud and Tifa have a romantic relationship building. I’ve only played the Remakes and watched AC 100 years ago. After Rebirth hooking me and making me obsessed, I’ve read Nojima’s novels and watched certain sections of the OG.

I really have no doubt that things will end with the pairings they have been building which is Cloud and Tifa, and Aerith and Zach.

My opinion kind of hinges on the fact that Tifa’s part in the next game has so many intimate moments I don’t see how it can end ambiguously between them. The Gongaga moment was intimate and that is barely anything compared to the lifestream sequence. One thing I’ve loved about Rebirth is how much emotion everyone expresses, so I just envision this moment, as well as when Tifa first finds him, to be so emotional it will just be Gongaga X 1,000,000. I don’t know how they’d do this moment, and then not have them end up together.

As far as it ending and going directly into Advent Children, I feel like AC will just be another timeline. Advent Children is Cloud dealing with his guilt and his two sins- which are Aerith and Zack. But now we have Aerith already talking to him in the way she did in Advent Children, telling him not to blame himself. I have a pipe dream that we will see something post AC.

 

[abzy1200]

I get what you’re saying. I just don’t really see your reasoning behind the Clerith portion of it.

“Parts 1 and 2 had bad endings. Therefore bad Part 3 ending = Clerith”.

Genuinely not sure how you came to the conclusion that we are either getting a Clerith ending or them favouring Clerith in the third game at all, when the third game is very much gonna be the Cloud and Tifa show for the most part and Rebirth already basically closing up the Clerith chapter for us. They're not gonna backpedal after going this hard for the Cloti and Zerith setups that need payoffs.

As I have said, I think Cloti moments will probably be cheapened or gutted, and the by-product of that is it restoring ambiguity. Restoring ambiguity, and assuming that scene of Cloud reaching out for Aeriths hand at the end is included, while I don't think it is necessarily romantic in the original, if Cloti moments are cheapened and ambiguity is restored, it could definitely be seen as romantic in the Re;trilogy, especially if Cloud's feelings for Aerith are included in the lifestream sequence. I think they would kind of have to be covered, since it will 100% have to confront those delusions Cloud was having.

And then when all the dust settles, AC can tackle the guilty Cloud.

But I don't see why it would have to, Cloud is 100% going to meet Aerith and Zack again during the ending of the third game, and they're inevitably going to have some sort of "Don't get hung up on us" included in their goodbye to him or something. It would feel odd if Aerith and Zack just peaced out without saying a single word to him, especially not after they were fighting alongside him, which, in itself could be seen by Cloud as "They don't hate me for being inadequate, they don't hate me for letting them die, I can forgive myself"

Or maybe because I happen to be a naturally pessimistic person who reads too much into stuff, so sorry if this feels a bit like dooming/baseless worrying.

 

[Hellenic]

Sure, certain things that have happened now do create some very slight incongruities with AC and TKAA but I think they can still fit in for the most part.

Actually, tbh the only thing I can think of is that Kyrie knows the group, but they have so little interaction in the book that it isn’t that bad.

At the end of the day, having inconsistencies is a given at this point and i think ultimately we just kinda have to ignore the small bits here and there when it comes to the later material, or hope they do some revised versions of their content after the trilogy.

 

[Someonesbunny]

With that said, I can't help but feel like Clerith will be canon in the re;trilogy, or atleast the ambiguity around it will be brought back from the dead again, and before I go any further I'm a Cloti, and firmly believe it is THE pairing of ff7 by the time of Advent Children.

My reasoning for this is as follows; I assume most of us accept that a Clerith ending of this story is a bad one, and would only serve to hurt basically all three characters involved in the original love triangle. I also assume that most of us are partial to the belief that Remake and Rebirth had, to put it in the best way possible, weak endings, since it is the general opinion I see online.

It's true that the original triangle being discussed still exists as it did in '97, but the inclusion of Zack is your wild card here.

So far, that leaves us with 2/3 games in this trilogy having bad endings, and now that it's a pattern and the story will only get more derailed from here on out, it's not unfair to assume the third game will also have a bad ending with all of the dimension jumping stuff being even more prominent.

I think that "CA ending" is a "Bad Ending," therefore, any "Bad Ending" will likely be a "CA Ending" isn't necessarily the way to look at it here. Many ways to ruin a story, and only one of them involves undoing decades of a well-known story element in a flagship game to pursue... what appears to be an element that doesn't even really exist in the current iteration.

Maybe I'm just being pessimistic since I'm just kind of like that, but I can't help but feel that, with Aerith "dead", the perfect spot for Square Enix to give her screentime and importance in the third game will be to include her in the lifestream sequence, especially with the new addition of Cloud deluding himself about Aeriths death. The same way Square Enix wasn't going to make Remake without Sephiroth having a role, I feel that there's no way Square Enix would develop an entire ff7 game with Aerith, (one of the most iconic and marketable video game characters ever) only having as much of a role as Zack did in Rebirth.

Aerith appearing in the lifestream sequence, in my eyes atleast, cheapens it HEAVILY. It is basically the moment in the original it tells the player "Cloud was living a lie all long, and that he has deeply ingrained feelings for another woman". It is a pivotal moment for the Cloud and Tifa pairing, and Aerith being there, honestly, would kind of ruin it, because now it isn't a Cloud and Tifa moment, it's just a story beat like any other.

I understand the pessimism, but keep in mind that, in a game with date mechanics where the player chooses who Cloud dates, Cloud only chose to kiss Tifa. This was deliberate, and probably the most telling of decisions by the devs, not even mentioning that they have, in a recent interview, asked everyone to watch all of them. There are many places where inserting Aerith was possible in Rebirth given that many of the moments in the game were new and added dimension, but again they just didn't.

But to humour your hypothetical, let's say that Aerith is shoehorned into the Lifestream sequence: will this destroy Cloud's feelings for Tifa? Can Aerith bring back Cloud without Tifa's memories of him? Are Cloud's memories and affections for Tifa going to be erased? And, possibly most importantly, how is Aerith, who presumably loves Cloud (but is, to date, unproven to do so) to react when she sees that the love that inhabits his mind is a love that is reserved for another?

All that besides, the conclusion of "a sealed up secret wish" is a trigger that has yet to be pulled (but all CT scenes thus far have indicated that they're just itching to pull it).

This is where the ambiguity comes back into play in the Re;trilogy. With Katou gone from Square Enix, (presumably) Square Enix keeping the third game to a teen rating, and keeping the affection mechanics from Rebirth, I can't see the highwind scene being an implied sex scene like it used to be, or anything special if not being gutted by Square completely, It was already a miracle it was added in the first place.

FFX, who had the same devs, had an implied sex scene but it wasn't raunchy, explicit, or, actually, even obvious. You can't tell me that they were "dancing down there where it's wet" and not make me think it was innuendo. It's about execution: Kato wanted to be explicit in FFVII but was denied that level of it, then he proceeded to be explicit with it in Xenogears. Different artistic visions in this case, so maybe it will just take a different form in the coming game.

Pair all this with the fact the third game "linking up" with Advent Children doesn't seem possible due to characters like Kyrie being repurposed, and that the third game will probably have a terrible ending like the two that came before it, I think the Re;trilogy will almost definitely have either:

1) A Clerith ending
2) Way too much ambiguity, with it favouring Clerith.

Rebirth alone was pretty far from ambiguous so I don't feel like the waters will become murkier as time goes on. It's been a while since I've seen Advent Children, but I don't remember Kyrie being involved at all - only in TKAA. It felt pretty well contained within its own narrative so I'm not sure how this is affected.

Speaking of ambiguity, we also have to remember that the devs deliberately released ToTP and CCR prior to Rebirth and insisted for people to experience that in order to understand everything going on in Rebirth - both of these entries give background to CT and ZA so it would seem terribly out of pocket to just do away with that in favour of a pairing that neither has the narrative links to each other like CT or ZA does, or provide any satisfying conclusion to the non-optional buildup between Cloud and Tifa which has been noted pretty well across the board.

Additional note: I wish I can just do away with saying "non-optional" as if content in a narrative driven game was not meant to be seen.

Hi, I'm new here so if this post is in the wrong thread or comes off as rude, I'm sorry in advance.

Also, welcome!

 

[GamerSkull]

As I have said, I think Cloti moments will probably be cheapened or gutted, and the by-product of that is it restoring ambiguity. Restoring ambiguity, and assuming that scene of Cloud reaching out for Aeriths hand at the end is included, while I don't think it is necessarily romantic in the original, if Cloti moments are cheapened and ambiguity is restored, it could definitely be seen as romantic in the Re;trilogy, especially if Cloud's feelings for Aerith are included in the lifestream sequence. I think they would kind of have to be covered, since it will 100% have to confront those delusions Cloud was having.

But I don't see why it would have to, Cloud is 100% going to meet Aerith and Zack again during the ending of the third game, and they're inevitably going to have some sort of "Don't get hung up on us" included in their goodbye to him or something. It would feel odd if Aerith and Zack just peaced out without saying a single word to him, especially not after they were fighting alongside him, which, in itself could be seen by Cloud as "They don't hate me for being inadequate, they don't hate me for letting them die, I can forgive myself"

Or maybe because I happen to be a naturally pessimistic person who reads too much into stuff, so sorry if this feels a bit like dooming/baseless worrying.

I get that you’re pessimistic.

But imo, they’ve done everything pretty well BUT the endings. So I’m not worried.

I actually don’t think they’ll be very ambiguous personally. I think they’ve pretty much telegraphed what they’re gonna do.

If Part 3’s ending is bad, if will be bad separate from the LTD.

 

[GamerSkull]

It's true that the original triangle being discussed still exists as it did in '97, but the inclusion of Zack is your wild card here.



I think that "CA ending" is a "Bad Ending," therefore, any "Bad Ending" will likely be a "CA Ending" isn't necessarily the way to look at it here. Many ways to ruin a story, and only one of them involves undoing decades of a well-known story element in a flagship game to pursue... what appears to be an element that doesn't even really exist in the current iteration.



I understand the pessimism, but keep in mind that, in a game with date mechanics where the player chooses who Cloud dates, Cloud only chose to kiss Tifa. This was deliberate, and probably the most telling of decisions by the devs, not even mentioning that they have, in a recent interview, asked everyone to watch all of them. There are many places where inserting Aerith was possible in Rebirth given that many of the moments in the game were new and added dimension, but again they just didn't.

But to humour your hypothetical, let's say that Aerith is shoehorned into the Lifestream sequence: will this destroy Cloud's feelings for Tifa? Can Aerith bring back Cloud without Tifa's memories of him? Are Cloud's memories and affections for Tifa going to be erased? And, possibly most importantly, how is a Aerith, who presumably loves Cloud (but is, to date, unproven to do so) to react when she sees that the love that inhabits his mind is a love that is reserved for another?

All that besides, the conclusion of "a sealed up secret wish" is a trigger that has yet to be pulled (but all CT scenes thus far have indicated that they're just itching to pull it).



FFX, who had the same devs, had an implied sex scene but it wasn't raunchy, explicit, or, actually, even obvious. You can't tell me that they were "dancing down there where it's wet" and not make me think it was innuendo. It's about execution: Kato wanted to be explicit in FFVII but was denied that level of it, then he proceeded to be explicit with it in Xenogears. Different artistic visions in this case, so maybe it will just take a different form in the coming game.



Rebirth alone was pretty far from ambiguous so I don't feel like the waters will become murkier as time goes on. It's been a while since I've seen Advent Children, but I don't remember Kyrie being involved at all - only in TKAA. It felt pretty well contained within its own narrative so I'm not sure how this is affected.

Speaking of ambiguity, we also have to remember that the devs deliberately released ToTP and CCR prior to Rebirth and insisted for people to experience that in order to understand everything going on in Rebirth - both of these entries give background to CT and ZA so it would seem terribly out of pocket to just do away with that in favour of a pairing that neither has the narrative links to each other like CT or ZA does, or provide any satisfying conclusion to the non-optional buildup between Cloud and Tifa which has been noted pretty well across the board.

Additional note: I wish I can just do away with saying "non-optional" as if content in a narrative driven game was not meant to be seen.



Also, welcome!

Well, I don’t think Tidus and Yuna had sex myself.

That being said, I don’t think a T-rating means they can’t “imply” a sex scene. I’ve never thought we would see one (and honestly I don’t want to) an implication with a fade to black is all I really need, and that is within the bounds of a T-rating so I agree there.

And truth be told, I just want mutual confirmation of feelings explicitly. That’s all I really want to see from the scene tbh. Sex is more just the icing on the cake. It’s not necessary but I won’t complain if they include it.