SPOILERS LTD Remake — It's like New Coke except ... no, it's exactly like New Coke

[GamerSkull]

Final Fantasy 7.txt


The arguments around original Dissidia and Duodecim were quite ludicrous way back when, and it's actually kind of notable how hard those arguments got dropped when even KH still gets trotted out as "C/A evidence" from time to time. But yeah, there were plenty back then. That the 7 crystal was the actual white Materia and thus meant his reason for fighting was Aerith (Not so, and made explicitly not so in Duodecim), that the flowers in the ending only appear when Cloud is on screen (they don't) to the idea that everyone's endings reflect their romantic interest (Fuck you they DEFINITELY don't because the only fucking married man in the cast has an ending that references his brother not his wife) and so many insistences that Aerith would definitely be playable in the sequel. That she was a totally story irrelevant assist attack must have extra stung because Maaya Sakamoto (Who at this point was dating if not already married to Zack's VO, just for the record) was in the game as Lightning, so they absolutely had her on hand if they wanted to do shit with her as Aerith and Nada. No Aerith. Only Tifa.

I feel like it would be hard to use KH these days since KH1 FM confirms he is searching for Sephiroth and KH2 has… well, Tifa being his light. (Or at least, she wants to give him her light).

 

[nars305]

I wonder if, as Clerith becomes more and more unsustainable, we'll see them go more and more insane in their death throes?
I was just in the cesspool formerly known as Twitter and I actually saw a Clerith post a picture of Aerith and Cloud sitting on the water tower, and quoting Cloud talking about how "sitting there hoping Tifa would wave at him" sounds like something he'd do.....and actually go heart eyes #Clerith..... these people are insane, they literally want Aerith to be Tifa.

I really try and be mindful that others can have their own interpretations and feelings. However, when I saw the way certain people twist things to “help their side” of the love triangle I knew it’s something I’d never engage with. Sometimes I really want to question people or correct them but it’s really pointless. I’ve read one thread of people trying to question a “Clerith” and just nothing sunk in.

Like I still can’t get over people waving off the kiss or saying that he only did it because he was jealous. I mean that is just Olympic mental gymnastics. It’s all clear in the little details. Just like the chapter 8 difference where Aerith pulls Cloud’s arm but if you are with Tifa they hold hands and he immediately holds tightly and looks shy about it.

It’s all there people and I feel like SE has sounded the warning alarms so people can brace for impact.

 

[Yoru]

I feel like it would be hard to use KH these days since KH1 FM confirms he is searching for Sephiroth and KH2 has… well, Tifa being his light. (Or at least, she wants to give him her light).

Nomura even implied she may not be real in KH, just a representation of Cloud Light versus the Darkness of Sephiroth

And when we see what happens in Rebirth...

 

[GamerSkull]

Nomura even implied she may not be real in KH, just a representation of Cloud Light versus the Darkness of Sephiroth

And when we see what happens in Rebirth...

View attachment 15426

Yeah, but that’s my point. KH doesn’t imply Clerith anymore, so I don’t see how it can be used.

 

[overheat28]

Possibly.

I definitely think the cope still has yet to peak.

Definitely. They will struggle along till the last game comes out.

I do believe the honor of the final death blow belongs to Zack.

 

[Yoru]

Yeah, but that’s my point. KH doesn’t imply Clerith anymore, so I don’t see how it can be used.

The same way they use OG FF7 lmao.

They saw Traverse Town and stopped the game at Hercule Colloseum.

"Yup. Aerith is here and Cloud is looking for someone. I have seen enough"

 

[Fakewings_]

I really try and be mindful that others can have their own interpretations and feelings. However, when I saw the way certain people twist things to “help their side” of the love triangle I knew it’s something I’d never engage with. Sometimes I really want to question people or correct them but it’s really pointless. I’ve read one thread of people trying to question a “Clerith” and just nothing sunk in.

Like I still can’t get over people waving off the kiss or saying that he only did it because he was jealous. I mean that is just Olympic mental gymnastics. It’s all clear in the little details. Just like the chapter 8 difference where Aerith pulls Cloud’s arm but if you are with Tifa they hold hands and he immediately holds tightly and looks shy about it.

It’s all there people and I feel like SE has sounded the warning alarms so people can brace for impact.

Talking about this scene in Chapter 8, there's quite a significant difference. With Aerith & Cloud, Aerith pulls Cloud's arm and immediately transitions to the sky wheel scene. With Yuffie & Cloud, when Yuffie pulls Cloud along, the camera also shifts to a scene of two NPCs (female) walking out and chatting in a friendly manner. As for Tifa & Cloud, they walk hand in hand towards the sky wheel, surrounded by other couples with similar actions. The implication from the devs is quite clear: Tifa & Cloud are portrayed as a normal couple, just like any other couple.

 

[Maidenofwar]

I mean ... thousands of people ship Clerith since the OG ... so you aren't going to stop them by insulting mental health or making fun of them or prevent anybody from enjoying things in the way they are enjoying them.

 

[GamerSkull]

I don’t think anyone is saying it’s wrong to ship Clerith or that it’s somehow a sign of bad mental health.

I think they are specifically referring to ignoring actual canon events. Or using really bad evidence as proof.

I’m perfectly fine with people shipping Clerith. It’s mostly when they present really weird evidence to prove it’s canon that it really bothers me… and when they present really bad evidence to disprove Cloti.

Essentially, canon is canon. Preference is an entirely different thing.

The LTD here is mostly a discussion on what is canon.

 

[Yoru]

I mean ... thousands of people ship Clerith since the OG ... so you aren't going to stop them by insulting mental health or making fun of them or prevent anybody from enjoying things in the way they are enjoying them.

I think we're pretty clear with the fact that when we're talking or "mocking" Clerith we're not talking about people enjoying to see Cloud and Aerith together.

We're talking about people who refuse to aknowledge simple canon events and use proof of very bad faith.

 

[nars305]

I mean ... thousands of people ship Clerith since the OG ... so you aren't going to stop them by insulting mental health or making fun of them or prevent anybody from enjoying things in the way they are enjoying them.

Yeah I’m sorry if that’s how my response came across but I wasn’t saying people have to have mental health issues to ship Cloud and Aerith. I’m saying you’d have to do mental gymnastics in order to think Cloud only kissed Tifa due to being jealous of Zack.

Anyone is free to ship whoever they want, it’s when things like that are said that I personally see a problem with things said in the debate. While so many things can be speculative I just find that interpretation extremely false.

 

[cgnVirtue]

I wonder if, as Clerith becomes more and more unsustainable, we'll see them go more and more insane in their death throes?
I was just in the cesspool formerly known as Twitter and I actually saw a Clerith post a picture of Aerith and Cloud sitting on the water tower, and quoting Cloud talking about how "sitting there hoping Tifa would wave at him" sounds like something he'd do.....and actually go heart eyes #Clerith..... these people are insane, they literally want Aerith to be Tifa.

I’ve been wondering about this too. Time and time again I’ve seen plenty of Cleriths give Tifa’s personality, role, and significance to Cloud to Aerith. It’s like… Tifa’s right there. Why does it have to be Aerith specifically that has all of these traits that you’re looking for? Aerith doesn’t have to be Tifa if Tifa can be Tifa.

I don’t think anyone is saying it’s wrong to ship Clerith or that it’s somehow a sign of bad mental health.

I think they are specifically referring to ignoring actual canon events. Or using really bad evidence as proof.

This is accurate. People can enjoy what they want, ship what they want, whatever. But it’s the constant insistence that Clerith is canon over CloTi. And it isn’t even about shipping. They will literally deny the narrative because it doesn’t fit their view of what the story actually is, when those parts of the narrative can be the most powerful. Such as Tifa helping Cloud love himself by returning his love for him as he is.

Besides, it’s not like they’re silently enjoying their ship. At every turn it’s like they’re trying to convince everyone, including CloTis, of their ship. As if it isn’t enough to just enjoy themselves. They have to point and shout at “evidence” while the rest of us, including non-shippers and regular fans, are trying to discuss and praise the story given to us. Obviously we’re referring to the radical and vocal Cleriths, not the ones actually engaging in respectful and meaningful conversations.

I’m not a chess player, so forgive me if my analogy isn’t accurate. But it’s like if you told someone “checkmate” and your opponent just said “no” and tried to keep playing.

Edit: phrasing

 

[null]

Aw crap. I might finally be the oldest here. Tempted to @ a few names out of retirement. I know you're out there somewhere being slightly more geriatric than me.

I wonder if, as Clerith becomes more and more unsustainable, we'll see them go more and more insane in their death throes?
I was just in the cesspool formerly known as Twitter and I actually saw a Clerith post a picture of Aerith and Cloud sitting on the water tower, and quoting Cloud talking about how "sitting there hoping Tifa would wave at him" sounds like something he'd do.....and actually go heart eyes #Clerith..... these people are insane, they literally want Aerith to be Tifa.

LOL, one more for the books. There's been so much glorious cope over the years. I remember someone wrote an essay (Destiny Fulfilled?) saying that Tifa smiling at Cloud in the OG ending was actually a frown distorted by lens curvature.

 

[Yoru]

OG FF7 is DESIGNED to make Aerith a love interest. There is nothing wrong with shipping Clerith.

What is wrong is choosing to ignore whole segments of the game to thorn the narrative to something that suits them better.

 

[abzy1200]

Like I still can’t get over people waving off the kiss or saying that he only did it because he was jealous. I mean that is just Olympic mental gymnastics.

I remember how outraged I was at this, and still am. I remember seeing a certain user post a series of images that were swapped around to make it look like Cloud was "angry" after he kissed Tifa. They even went as far as to include completely unrelated images of I think the same mocap actors doing a kiss scene, and unsurprisingly it was shuffed around to fit the narrative they wanted to push. Even worse I still see people posting it as "evidence"!

It has to be one big troll, it just has to be.

We're talking about people who refuse to aknowledge simple canon events and use proof of very bad faith.

Tifa's "do you love me" is always approached with really bad faith from Cleriths. There can't possibly be a deeper, more human, more realistic reason she's asking it other than "she still doesn't know how Cloud feels about her! This is proof they weren't in a relationship!".

I’m not a chess player, so forgive me if my analogy isn’t accurate. But it’s like if you told someone “checkmate” and your opponent just said “no” and tried to keep playing.

More accurately, it would be like telling someone "checkmate" and then they flip the board and insult the chess pieces who delivered the finishing blows to them.

 

[GamerSkull]

Aw crap. I might finally be the oldest here. Tempted to @ a few names out of retirement. I know you're out there somewhere being slightly more geriatric than me.



LOL, one more for the books. There's been so much glorious cope over the years. I remember someone wrote an essay (Destiny Fulfilled?) saying that Tifa smiling at Cloud in the OG ending was actually a frown distorted by lens curvature.

If that last bit is true then… what?

See, that’s the kinda thing that annoys me. Just twisting everything for it to fit, knowing deep down it is not correct.

 

[null]

If that last bit is true then… what?

See, that’s the kinda thing that annoys me. Just twisting everything for it to fit, deep down it is not correct.

It was the part where they're hanging on the cliff and Cloud talks about meeting "her... there" (or whatever the Japanese really says). The false smile is proof of Tifa accepting her rejection. Combined with lowering her head in defeat, it's a very tragic scene.

 

[GamerSkull]

It was the part where they're hanging on the cliff and Cloud talks about meeting "her... there" (or whatever the Japanese really says). The false smile is proof of Tifa accepting her rejection. Combined with lowering her head in defeat, it's a very tragic scene.

Yeah, I often see that scene misinterpreted.

Oh well. What a shame.

 

[Yoru]

If that last bit is true then… what?

See, that’s the kinda thing that annoys me. Just twisting everything for it to fit, knowing deep down it is not correct.

Cloti : It's not really a choice driven game... the story will always be the same
Clerith : Yes it is, i'm sorry but in my playthrough Aerith is the one
Cloti : Ok you know what ? Fine. It's a choice driven game and in mine Cloud loves Tifa.
Clerith : Not possible, Aerith is the true canon.

 

[abzy1200]

It was the part where they're hanging on the cliff and Cloud talks about meeting "her... there" (or whatever the Japanese really says). The false smile is proof of Tifa accepting her rejection. Combined with lowering her head in defeat, it's a very tragic scene.

This scene is just another scene of many that is used to "prove Clerith" but oddly, the only thing it "proves" is Cloud being a manipulative villain.
"Yeah Tifa, even though we just had sex and it was a confirmation of our love for each other, I'm actually happy I'm about to die so I can reunite with the woman I actually love."
"Oh Cloud! I can't wait to watch and invite myself to be a third wheel! You always know what to say".

Absolutely nonsensical.

 

[Maidenofwar]

The Nibelheim scene is an example ... am I supposed to not enjoy it?, that it amuses me Cloud saying sounds like something I would do? is the best answer, that I like that Cloud gave Aerith a mini tour, that the follow up conversation is an interesting moment where Cloud wants to hang around even if she's mad but also because Aerith wanted a childhood friend like Tifa, that there's a nice moment where Aerith waves to Tifa in the windows, etc? I don't know it wasn't me who put those scenes in the game but if the intention was to make me miserable it failed.

 

[GamerSkull]

Cloud is for sure referring to Aerith, but he really means that “it’s ok, cuz we’ll see those we lost again.”

It’s not “Fuck, I really miss Aerith. Can’t wait to see her and be with her.” With Tifa going “that’s hot, can I watch?”

 

[GamerSkull]

The Nibelheim scene is an example ... am I supposed to not enjoy it?, that it amuses me Cloud saying sounds like something I would do? is the best answer, that I like that Cloud gave Aerith a mini tour, that the follow up conversation is an interesting moment where Cloud wants to hang around even if she's mad but also because Aerith wanted a childhood friend like Tifa, that there's a nice moment where Aerith waves to Tifa in the window, etc? I don't know it wasn't me who put those scenes in the game but if the intention was to make me miserable it failed.

I think saying this scene is Clerith proof is the problem, even though the moment is nice and sweet.

And I agree. It’s a nice scene. And it’s great for both Cloud and Aerith.

But the scene is about Aerith not having a childhood friend, it’s not a romantic scene.

 

[nars305]

The Nibelheim scene is an example ... am I supposed to not enjoy it?, that it amuses me Cloud saying sounds like something I would do? is the best answer, that I like that Cloud gave Aerith a mini tour, that the follow up conversation is an interesting moment where Cloud wants to hang around even if she's mad but also because Aerith wanted a childhood friend like Tifa, that there's a nice moment where Aerith waves to Tifa in the window, etc? I don't know it wasn't me who put those scenes in the game but if the intention was to make me miserable it failed.

I don’t think I’m understanding what you mean. It is a nice scene, like many others. If you were to ask me if it was romantic I would say no.

*Correction, as a Cloud and Tifa enjoyer I did like Cloud’s facial expression when Tifa waved at them.

 

[Yoru]

The Nibelheim scene is an example ... am I supposed to not enjoy it?, that it amuses me Cloud saying sounds like something I would do? is the best answer, that I like that Cloud gave Aerith a mini tour, that the follow up conversation is an interesting moment where Cloud wants to hang around even if she's mad but also because Aerith wanted a childhood friend like Tifa, that there's a nice moment where Aerith waves to Tifa in the window, etc? I don't know it wasn't me who put those scenes in the game but if the intention was to make me miserable it failed.

Did we say you have no right to enjoy it ? Did we say Cloud can't stand being around Aerith ?

No I don't think so.

But if you're telling me this scene is a proof Cloud and Aerith is a real thing. I'm sorry but I have to disagree.