SPOILERS LTD Remake — It's like New Coke except ... no, it's exactly like New Coke

abzy1200

Pro Adventurer
Cloud is for sure referring to Aerith, but he really means that “it’s ok, cuz we’ll see those we lost again.”

It’s not “Fuck, I really miss Aerith. Can’t wait to see her and be with her.” With Tifa going “that’s hot, can I watch?”
Yeah exactly. They both kinda assume meteor is about to kill them so it's supposed to be a "Even though we are about to die, we can still find happiness knowing we can meet Aerith" not romantic yearning and him rejecting Tifa.
 

abzy1200

Pro Adventurer
The scene is literally Aerith cherishing Tifa and telling Cloud :
In a shocking turn of events, all these "Clerith dates" I was hearing about before Rebirth released were just Aerith wishing she had a bond like Cloud and Tifa.
 

nars305

🎵 I am so, so bored 🎶
In a shocking turn of events, all these "Clerith dates" I was hearing about before Rebirth released were just Aerith wishing she had a bond like Cloud and Tifa.
This reminded me of when I went to rewatch their last “date” at the end of the game. I was just seeing people say it was non optional and basically proof they are canon, in love with each other, etc.

So I go to re-watch it to see if I misunderstood it and I left it the same way. It wasn’t a confession on either of their parts. Even now if I look it up I see the first YT comment “I love this is non optional, can’t avoid it” as if it that scene is the big reveal of their romantic relationship.

I just don’t get it, I try to, but I can’t. I feel like I gripe about interpretations of that scene over and over but it’s just because it drives me nuts.
 

Rin

Pro Adventurer
This reminded me of when I went to rewatch their last “date” at the end of the game. I was just seeing people say it was non optional and basically proof they are canon, in love with each other, etc.

So I go to re-watch it to see if I misunderstood it and I left it the same way. It wasn’t a confession on either of their parts. Even now if I look it up I see the first YT comment “I love this is non optional, can’t avoid it” as if it that scene is the big reveal of their romantic relationship.

I just don’t get it, I try to, but I can’t. I feel like I gripe about interpretations of that scene over and over but it’s just because it drives me nuts.
Also, you actually can avoid it if you turn Zack's interlude off so that bit them in the ass a little bit.
People could replay the entire game from start to finish and never see it if they turned Zack's scenes off. Or, they could turn it off before getting to that chapter and it'll skip it. Unfortunate. lol
 

GamerSkull

Pro Adventurer
Also, you actually can avoid it if you turn Zack's interlude off so that bit them in the ass a little bit.
People could replay the entire game from start to finish and never see it if they turned Zack's scenes off. Or, they could turn it off before getting to that chapter and it'll skip it. Unfortunate. lol
To be fair, that’s only skippable on a repeat playthrough so I’d still argue it’s not “optional”.

That being said, the tone of the date… although it is sweet that Cloud seems to be reciprocating to what Aerith wants… just does not seem like it ends with any romantic resolution. Or if it ends with a romantic resolution, it is one that is not favorable.
 

Yoru

Pro Adventurer
I just wanted to point out that many people focus too much on the "romantic" aspect of the date...

... when in reality it's not at all. It's not that sort of date. It's Aerith taking advantage of her abilities to do something she's never been able to do in OG :

Bidding farewell to Cloud.

(it's my opinion)
 

Stiggie

Pro Adventurer
AKA
Stiggie
I mean I've been calling it the dream date since the beginning because it happens in Aerith's dream world lol. I don't feel like it's new?
Yeah, it's really weird, I saw margo say something triumphant about this on twitter and I could not figure out why?
 

Maidenofwar

They/Them
I just saw some people say they weren't sure it was a date and even before the game came out a leaker said they didn't think it was a date just them saying goodbye.
 

Eerie

Fire and Blood
I just saw some people say they weren't sure it was a date and even before the game came out a leaker said they didn't think it was a date just them saying goodbye.
It's definitely a date since she's recreating at least partly her date with Zack. It's a goodbye for sure, but I also am not sure it's "our" Aerith (hence why there are other goodbyes for her). I mean leakers say things but obviously mostly everyone takes it as a date because uh... it is one.
 

Rin

Pro Adventurer
To be fair, that’s only skippable on a repeat playthrough so I’d still argue it’s not “optional”.

That being said, the tone of the date… although it is sweet that Cloud seems to be reciprocating to what Aerith wants… just does not seem like it ends with any romantic resolution. Or if it ends with a romantic resolution, it is one that is not favorable.
Ya, I agree, I just mean that unlike other "non-optional" scenes, there is a way to completely avoid seeing this one on your replay w/o hitting pause and choosing "skip scene."
 

Yoru

Pro Adventurer
It's definitely a date since she's recreating at least partly her date with Zack. It's a goodbye for sure, but I also am not sure it's "our" Aerith (hence why there are other goodbyes for her). I mean leakers say things but obviously mostly everyone takes it as a date because uh... it is one.
She has her white materia. So her "precious memories"

Pretty sure it's not Rebirth!Aerith. That's the one who knows she's going to die. She just wants to say what she never could to Cloud. Real thanks for the fun of this journey. And Goodbye.
 

Hix

Pro Adventurer
It's quite a popular opinion these days that the LTD is over. Since Rebirth, publications such as Polygon and Siliconera have weighed in to suggest the debate is no more, it's finished and any further discussion is merely performative. There's some truth in these contentions. From a purely rational stand point it's hard to argue that the devs have not nailed their colors to the mast in unambiguous terms. One girl gets a kiss, the other doesn't. One girl spends the game struggling to understand her feelings for Cloud, and he-her in return, the other enjoys a long standing and inherently romantic mutual attraction that never relents.

We've talked before about the significance of the CT kiss, or that moment when Aerith admits to Cloud that she still loves Zack, as being clear and obvious evidence that the LTD is no more, but today I want to talk about the moment in Rebirth in which Clerith dies;

Zack.jpg


Yeah it's not the kiss, it's not even the confession, it's this. The moment Cloud starts remembering Zack - and that Zack loves Aerith - is the moment that CA ends.

What we see here is only the tip of the iceberg for what comes later, but I find it quite remarkable that the devs decided to start the process early. Indeed, it should come as no significance that in the game in which Aerith continues to struggle with her inability to make Cloud the Zack she's yearned for for 5 years, that Cloud himself should start to see a little bit behind the scenes.

He remembers they are friends. He remembers they fought together, albeit he still cannot quite shake off the SOLDIER fantasy. Most pivotally, he remembers that Zack loves Aerith. This fact is reinforced by the scene that Cloud remembers - vis, Zack talking endlessly about Aerith "whether Cloud wants to hear or not."

This is so significant precisely because it happens now, while Aerith is still alive. So often since 1997, CA has been presented as a relationship of "what could have been" but here, unambiguously, the devs have decided to close off that avenue of contemplation. There was minimal, if any, reciprocation by Cloud towards Aerith's advances before but after this scene it is hard to see his actions towards her as anything more than strictly, though lovingly, platonic. Every detail, large and small, even the Gold Saucer date is viewed by Cloud through the lens of his patchwork memories of Zack and how important Aerith is to him.

It's not, again this must be emphasized, a matter of "owning" or denial of one character's freedom to move on. The fact is that the narrative would not put this massive barricade in the way if Clerith was meant to be. Zack did not need to be remembered here. Indeed, Cloti didn't need it's kiss and Zerith it's confession either. One can argue these things are fanservice, but even if that holds weight (and I don't believe it does) then it doesn't change that this is the canon and a reflection of the direction the plot has taken and yet intends to take.

Cloud is honorable, underneath it all. The chances of him understanding how much Aerith meant to Zack and yet deciding to nevertheless pursue a relationship with her, never mind the harm such a relationship would deal to everyone else, is zero. It's narratively unthinkable, a character assassination that simply would not happen in the genre and certainly not in a labor of love like the Remake trilogy.

Now imagine further, when Cloud finally remembers that Zack saved his life and was killed as his reward. The DMW slowly breaking, Zack's final thought is Aerith. He tried to get back to Midgar, literally the lion's den, to be with her - and he would have succeeded were it not for saving Cloud. To suggest Cloud would spit on Zack's grave in such a manner is insulting. Aerith never knew how desperate Zack was to get back to her, but Cloud comes to know and even here, in Rebirth, learns just how much she meant to him.

At this stage they were friends, comrades in arms, brothers. That's already enough. Cloud is many things but not one to stab a friend in the back, no, not even if that friend is gone. He counts them all as precious, he holds them all deeply in his heart. Cleriths cannot handwave this scene away without fundamentally changing who Cloud is and making him out to be a monster. Mercifully that's not who the devs had in mind and we see that, though Cloud does humor Aerith to a degree - including on her Sector 5 recreated "dream date" - it ultimately never goes anywhere. This is not who Cloud is and Aerith's arc is her discovering it's not who she is either.
 

GamerSkull

Pro Adventurer
It's quite a popular opinion these days that the LTD is over. Since Rebirth, publications such as Polygon and Siliconera have weighed in to suggest the debate is no more, it's finished and any further discussion is merely performative. There's some truth in these contentions. From a purely rational stand point it's hard to argue that the devs have not nailed their colors to the mast in unambiguous terms. One girl gets a kiss, the other doesn't. One girl spends the game struggling to understand her feelings for Cloud, and he-her in return, the other enjoys a long standing and inherently romantic mutual attraction that never relents.

We've talked before about the significance of the CT kiss, or that moment when Aerith admits to Cloud that she still loves Zack, as being clear and obvious evidence that the LTD is no more, but today I want to talk about the moment in Rebirth in which Clerith dies;

View attachment 15428


Yeah it's not the kiss, it's not even the confession, it's this. The moment Cloud starts remembering Zack - and that Zack loves Aerith - is the moment that CA ends.

What we see here is only the tip of the iceberg for what comes later, but I find it quite remarkable that the devs decided to start the process early. Indeed, it should come as no significance that in the game in which Aerith continues to struggle with her inability to make Cloud the Zack she's yearned for for 5 years, that Cloud himself should start to see a little bit behind the scenes.

He remembers they are friends. He remembers they fought together, albeit he still cannot quite shake off the SOLDIER fantasy. Most pivotally, he remembers that Zack loves Aerith. This fact is reinforced by the scene that Cloud remembers - vis, Zack talking endlessly about Aerith "whether Cloud wants to hear or not."

This is so significant precisely because it happens now, while Aerith is still alive. So often since 1997, CA has been presented as a relationship of "what could have been" but here, unambiguously, the devs have decided to close off that avenue of contemplation. There was minimal, if any, reciprocation by Cloud towards Aerith's advances before but after this scene it is hard to see his actions towards her as anything more than strictly, though lovingly, platonic. Every detail, large and small, even the Gold Saucer date is viewed by Cloud through the lens of his patchwork memories of Zack and how important Aerith is to him.

It's not, again this must be emphasized, a matter of "owning" or denial of one character's freedom to move on. The fact is that the narrative would not put this massive barricade in the way if Clerith was meant to be. Zack did not need to be remembered here. Indeed, Cloti didn't need it's kiss and Zerith it's confession either. One can argue these things are fanservice, but even if that holds weight (and I don't believe it does) then it doesn't change that this is the canon and a reflection of the direction the plot has taken and yet intends to take.

Cloud is honorable, underneath it all. The chances of him understanding how much Aerith meant to Zack and yet deciding to nevertheless pursue a relationship with her, never mind the harm such a relationship would deal to everyone else, is zero. It's narratively unthinkable, a character assassination that simply would not happen in the genre and certainly not in a labor of love like the Remake trilogy.

Now imagine further, when Cloud finally remembers that Zack saved his life and was killed as his reward. The DMW slowly breaking, Zack's final thought is Aerith. He tried to get back to Midgar, literally the lion's den, to be with her - and he would have succeeded were it not for saving Cloud. To suggest Cloud would spit on Zack's grave in such a manner is insulting. Aerith never knew how desperate Zack was to get back to her, but Cloud comes to know and even here, in Rebirth, learns just how much she meant to him.

At this stage they were friends, comrades in arms, brothers. That's already enough. Cloud is many things but not one to stab a friend in the back, no, not even if that friend is gone. He counts them all as precious, he holds them all deeply in his heart. Cleriths cannot handwave this scene away without fundamentally changing who Cloud is and making him out to be a monster. Mercifully that's not who the devs had in mind and we see that, though Cloud does humor Aerith to a degree - including on her Sector 5 recreated "dream date" - it ultimately never goes anywhere. This is not who Cloud is and Aerith's arc is her discovering it's not who she is either.
Yeah, I’ve said it before and I’ll say it again. If Cloud had feelings for Aerith, the effectively died the moment he remembered Zack…

Agree with everything here.
 

Maidenofwar

They/Them
So here again is my problem apparently the booklet for the soundtrack shows the CA scenes, why does marketing do this, wouldn't it be better to tell an honest story.
 

nars305

🎵 I am so, so bored 🎶
It's quite a popular opinion these days that the LTD is over. Since Rebirth, publications such as Polygon and Siliconera have weighed in to suggest the debate is no more, it's finished and any further discussion is merely performative. There's some truth in these contentions. From a purely rational stand point it's hard to argue that the devs have not nailed their colors to the mast in unambiguous terms. One girl gets a kiss, the other doesn't. One girl spends the game struggling to understand her feelings for Cloud, and he-her in return, the other enjoys a long standing and inherently romantic mutual attraction that never relents.

We've talked before about the significance of the CT kiss, or that moment when Aerith admits to Cloud that she still loves Zack, as being clear and obvious evidence that the LTD is no more, but today I want to talk about the moment in Rebirth in which Clerith dies;

View attachment 15428


Yeah it's not the kiss, it's not even the confession, it's this. The moment Cloud starts remembering Zack - and that Zack loves Aerith - is the moment that CA ends.

What we see here is only the tip of the iceberg for what comes later, but I find it quite remarkable that the devs decided to start the process early. Indeed, it should come as no significance that in the game in which Aerith continues to struggle with her inability to make Cloud the Zack she's yearned for for 5 years, that Cloud himself should start to see a little bit behind the scenes.

He remembers they are friends. He remembers they fought together, albeit he still cannot quite shake off the SOLDIER fantasy. Most pivotally, he remembers that Zack loves Aerith. This fact is reinforced by the scene that Cloud remembers - vis, Zack talking endlessly about Aerith "whether Cloud wants to hear or not."

This is so significant precisely because it happens now, while Aerith is still alive. So often since 1997, CA has been presented as a relationship of "what could have been" but here, unambiguously, the devs have decided to close off that avenue of contemplation. There was minimal, if any, reciprocation by Cloud towards Aerith's advances before but after this scene it is hard to see his actions towards her as anything more than strictly, though lovingly, platonic. Every detail, large and small, even the Gold Saucer date is viewed by Cloud through the lens of his patchwork memories of Zack and how important Aerith is to him.

It's not, again this must be emphasized, a matter of "owning" or denial of one character's freedom to move on. The fact is that the narrative would not put this massive barricade in the way if Clerith was meant to be. Zack did not need to be remembered here. Indeed, Cloti didn't need it's kiss and Zerith it's confession either. One can argue these things are fanservice, but even if that holds weight (and I don't believe it does) then it doesn't change that this is the canon and a reflection of the direction the plot has taken and yet intends to take.

Cloud is honorable, underneath it all. The chances of him understanding how much Aerith meant to Zack and yet deciding to nevertheless pursue a relationship with her, never mind the harm such a relationship would deal to everyone else, is zero. It's narratively unthinkable, a character assassination that simply would not happen in the genre and certainly not in a labor of love like the Remake trilogy.

Now imagine further, when Cloud finally remembers that Zack saved his life and was killed as his reward. The DMW slowly breaking, Zack's final thought is Aerith. He tried to get back to Midgar, literally the lion's den, to be with her - and he would have succeeded were it not for saving Cloud. To suggest Cloud would spit on Zack's grave in such a manner is insulting. Aerith never knew how desperate Zack was to get back to her, but Cloud comes to know and even here, in Rebirth, learns just how much she meant to him.

At this stage they were friends, comrades in arms, brothers. That's already enough. Cloud is many things but not one to stab a friend in the back, no, not even if that friend is gone. He counts them all as precious, he holds them all deeply in his heart. Cleriths cannot handwave this scene away without fundamentally changing who Cloud is and making him out to be a monster. Mercifully that's not who the devs had in mind and we see that, though Cloud does humor Aerith to a degree - including on her Sector 5 recreated "dream date" - it ultimately never goes anywhere. This is not who Cloud is and Aerith's arc is her discovering it's not who she is either.
Very good points, enjoyed reading!

It also adds to Cloud’s guilt I feel like. Not only does he feel guilt for Zack dying for him but also for not saving the girl Zack loved.
 

GamerSkull

Pro Adventurer
So here again is my problem apparently the booklet for the soundtrack shows the CA scenes, why does marketing do this, wouldn't it be better to tell an honest story.
Booklet for that song, or just the entire soundtrack?

The reason CA scenes are shown is because Cloud and Aerith share a deep bond. It just doesn’t necessarily end in a happy way. And doesn’t necessarily culminate in mutual romance.

But yes, I agree that the devs should pick a lane and stick to it.
 

shady

Pro Adventurer
I think it's safe to say the likes of Nojima and Nomura have absolutely no input into what pictures go into the booklet of the soundtrack of the game, they got better things to spend their time on than that. That's why they have marketing and merchandise departments at SE.

Unless the Ultimania wants to prove me wrong in a few days or one of the devs come out and says "Yup, we chose to put this in the booklet for a reason and it's because of Clerith," in which case i'll gladly admit I was wrong, then If people are basing what's canon or "Clerith confirmed" over the pictures of the book then we truly are picking up breadcrumbs from the floor at this point.
 
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